40000 From: Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Robert - In a message dated 12/20/04 12:26:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Thanks Howard, > This is very kind of you, it allows me to comment freely. Actually > nothing negative to say - more of a 'let's wait and see'. I will try > to write later tonight but first perhaps you could compare this > experience with the one where you wrote on TG "My experience has > been evaluated by Leigh > Brassington, a student of Ayya Khema, as probably a shuttling > between the 2nd > and > 5th jhanas. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: This was definitely not jhana, or at least not jhana of the same sort. Perhaps it was what some call access concentration, or moment-to-moment concentration. I don't know. To me it was a meditation much the same as many that I have had except for being calmer, clearer, easier (unforced and flowing on its own), and without any noticing of "self", and absent of any obvious thinking or conceptual labeling. --------------------------------------------- > I *have* read that the jhanas are, with the exception of piti, purely > mind-door experiences. But I cannot say as a general fact that the > jhanas are > basically mind-door only. All I can tell you is that was my > experience." (I see this thread is now also on TG so I think it is > Ok to bring in this point here). > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, it's there as well, though not at my initiation. I was uneasy about that, as a matter of fact. But it's a small matter, I suppose. ---------------------------------------- I am assuming that the one we are > > discussing today was quite different from the previous one? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Altogether different: For one thing, there was no ecstatic joy or experience of infinite space, but just normal sense-door experience freed of obvious conceptualization, and accompanied by calm bodily and mental pleasure. It was multi-sensory, and definitely not mind-door only, and it was far less static, in that the experience was a dynamic flow of sights, sounds, bodily sensations, feelings, etc. - in short, a stream of paramattha dhammas. -------------------------------------------- > RobertK > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40001 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 10:58pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 78- Volition/cetanaa (h) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** Kamma patha can be of different degrees and thus its result is of different degrees. Kamma patha is not always a ‘completed action’. There are certain constituent factors which make kamma patha a completed action and for each of the kamma pathas these factors are different. For example, in the case of killing there have to be: a living being, consciousness that there is a living being, intention of killing, the effort of killing and consequent death (Atthasåliní, I, Part III, Chapter V, 97). When a large animal is killed the degree of akusala kamma is higher than when a small animal is killed. The killing of a human being is akusala kamma which is of a higher degree than the killing of an animal. In the case of slandering, there are four factors which make it a completed action: other persons to be divided; the purpose: ‘they will be separated’, or the desire to endear oneself to another; the corresponding effort; the communication (Atthasåliní, same section, 100 ). We read: -“But when there is no rupture among others, the offence does not -amount to a complete course; it does so only when there is a rupture.” Akusala kamma patha which is a “completed action” is capable of producing an unhappy rebirth. Some akusala kammas which are very powerful such as killing a parent produce an unhappy rebirth in the immediately following life. Some akusala kammas produce results in this life, some in following lives. There are many intensities of akusala kamma and they produce their results accordingly. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40002 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau Hi KenH & All, --- kenhowardau wrote: > >. To put a charitable slant on my > anti-guru-fake-meditation-master fundamentalism, I am only trying to > help others to avoid the mistakes I made and wasting the time I > wasted. ….. S: I know this is true and I, for one,always appreciate all your efforts to share your understanding of the Dhamma with us here. Can we help others to avoid our mistakes? Can parents help their children avoid the same errors they’ve made? Could even the Buddha prevent others like Devadatta from following serious wrong views which led to heinous crimes? Right and wrong views and all other dhammas are conditioned in so many complex ways as you know so well. All we can ever do is to share the little knowledge we may have as best we can and continue to develop more awareness and insight ourselves into the teachings, I think, without any expectations or minding about the results. A couple of friends in India were asking K.Sujin about ways to help family members and her response was just to share and help those who were interested without any concern about whether they were particular family or friends (whom of course we are so attached to). It reminded me of many years ago, when she came with her father and Jonothan to stay in my parents’ home in England. Friends came from all over the country for the Dhamma discussions and my mother catered beautifully. I had many expectations of the benefit my parents would receive from this immersion in Dhamma discussion. Indeed my father had always been keenly interested in discussing philosophy, religion and politics and my mother had always been open-minded, I thought, even encouraging me in my spiritual endeavours and journeys to the East. There was plenty of congenial chit-chat over meals, on day-trips and looking round the garden, but as soon as we started the Dhamma discussions, both my parents and K.Sujin’s father too, would quickly but politely disappear, unwilling to listen to a word, even though my parents both liked her a lot. It was a good lesson for me at the time that we can only share our understanding with those who wish to hear it For some reason, these concerns and expectations that we all share remind me of the Salla Sutta from Sutta Nipata (Maha Vagga,8). Perhaps we could add ‘Wrong Views’ to what is endemic in the world and see any concern or grieving about it on our part as being the problem or the dart that needs to be removed. Here's an extract: "7. Look: while relatives are watching, tearful and groaning, men are carried off one by one, like cattle being led to the slaughter. 8. So death and ageing are endemic to the world. Therefore the wise do not grieve seeing the nature of the world. 9. You cannot know his path as to where he has come from, or where he is going. So it makes no sense to grieve for him. 10. The man who grieves gains nothing. He is doing no more than a foolish man who is trying to hurt himself. If a wise man does it, it is the same for him. 11. Peace of mind cannot come from weeping and wailing. On the contrary, it will lead to more suffering and greater pain." (From ‘Salla Sutta’, Sutta-nipata, translated by Ven. Dr. H. Saddhatissa.) ***** S: I hasten to add that I'm not suggesting you're weeping and wailing for a moment over any perceived misguided notions here, KenH;-). Look forward to your further helpful reminders. Metta, Sarah ======== 40003 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Is there seeing now? Re: kusala and akusala. Hi James, You made some good comments here: --- buddhatrue wrote: > Sarah: The texts suggest that visible objects are the most commonly > experienced, followed by sounds and this is how it would seem to me. > > James: I am not so sure that "seeing" is the most important sense > sphere simply because it is listed first in the traditional listing, > often times in suttas the most important element is listed last. …. S: Ok, in the quote I gave, it said the eye-door was the most ‘obvious’. We’re very attached to what is seen and proliferated a lot on account of the eye-door. Of course, as I stressed to Herman, we all have different tendencies and preferences in this regard. For most of us, even when our eyes are closed, we’re still thinking about various sights. It even seems to us that it’s light most the time when in fact we live in darkness apart from those very brief moments of the seeing of visible objects. Like the magician’s trick, we’re fooled all the time on account of the perversions of sanna, citta and ditthi with regard to visible objects, I think. We really imagine we see people and things all day -- the mirage--and the delusion will continue until there is real understanding and detachment at these moments. So, I think you’re right to point out that compared to all the thinking in the mind-door processes, moments of seeing are very, very brief. However, without such experiencing through the 5 sense doors, there wouldn’t be all the proliferating through the mind-door. This is why seeing and visible object and the other sense experiences and objects have to be known for what they are. ….. > This makes sense because at the end of a rather lengthy list, the > last item is going to be the one which remains most fresh in the > minds of the listeners and would be the one the Buddha wanted to > emphasize most. In this case, "Intellect and Ideas" is > traditionally listed last in the six sense spheres. From my > perspective, "Intellect and Ideas" is much more significant and > occurs more frequently than "Eye and Forms". It just makes more > sense to me. …. S: Yes, no disagreement. However, I think that compared to the other sense doors, we attach a lot of importance to the eye door. It’s good your appreciate how significant the attachment to the mind door objects are – of course these are on account of what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched. One brief moment of seeing or hearing and then so much mind-door activity follows, usually without any awareness or understanding. Even when it seems there is no thinking as we’re used to ‘think’ of it conventionally, there is still the mind-door activity following the sense door objects, with sanna (perception) marking, vitakka (thinking) touching, cetana (intention) coordinating and so on. Even when we look out of the window as I’m doing from time to time now as I write, there is ‘reading’ or ‘thinking’ about and marking the various objects seen. In other words, thinking about concepts doesn’t have to be in words at all. You’ll be rightly telling me I’ve veering off-track. Thanks for your feedback. Metta, Sarah p.s I liked your comments (to Howard) #39599 where you rightly pointed out that we should distinguish between the Vinaya precepts (or Patimokkha sila) which applies principally to bhikkhus and guarding the sense doors (Indriya samvara sila) which develops with mindfulness. I appreciated your comment about the internal process which ‘doesn’t require a manipulation of one’s environment’. See also under sila in Nyantiloka’s dictionary for a brief summary of the different kinds of sila. ====================================================== 40004 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 0:52am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Herman, --- Egbert wrote: > > This seems like an appropriate spot to make the following point, > which has been stewing for a few years (perhaps a bit overcooked by > now :-)) ... S: Certainly sounds like it needs some air :-) ... > > Seeing is the knowing of visible object, hearing the knowing of > sound etc. This is immediate, unmediated, non-reflexive. .... S: If you mean knowing in the sense of experiencing.... .... > Knowing seeing, or knowing hearing etc is not-immediate, it is > mediated, it is reflexive, it is the knowing of a knowing, it is > consciousness of a consciousness. .... S: For all intents and purposes, the knowing of seeing etc is immediate. Here I take the knowing to be experiencing with panna. It's panna which knows. (I'm leaving aside the reflexive and non-reflexive for further elaboration if you wish to give it). .... > Visible object, sound etc is its own knowing. ... S::-/ I don't follow. ... >When it is said that > cittas are so fast and short-lived, this is said relative to another > level, namely the knowing of seeing or the knowing of hearing. ... S: Whether there is or is not any knowing of dhammas, cittas are fast and short-lived. It's just the truth, not relative to anything. ... > When Freud posited the unconscious, he meant that the unconscious > was unconscious relative only to the ego, not to itself. That the > mind-generated ego is aware (consciousness of consciousness) of only > one consciousness at a time does not mean there is only one > consciousness at a time. ... S: Yes, but here we're talking about what the Buddha taught;-) .... > From the ability of people to drive through a maze of fast-moving > objects, whilst being reflexively aware of only their next post to > dsg, it is clear that there is a level of knowing which operates > very effectively without needing to be known again by itself. ... S: Ignorance and Wrong view don't mean we can't drive and function perfectly 'normally' as worldlings. I've always been a bad driver and however much wisdom was developed, I doubt I'd ever be a good one for that matter;-). .... > What are visible object and sound other than visible object and > sound? Are they something lesser than what they are before they are > known as having been seen or heard? ... S: No. No change at all. This is why the practice has to be developed naturally, understanding what's always been true and always will be true. No difference in the sounds or visible objects at all. .... > This is not a metaphysical question. But there is room to doubt the > validity of any suggestion that sound becomes sound by virtue of > being heard (reflexively in a secondary consciousness) or likewise > that visible object becomes so by virtue of being seen. ... S: Certainly the Buddha didn't teach that 'sound becomes sound by virtue of being heard'. The sound is a condition for hearing. If there is no hearing, all we can say is that sound isn't experienced (like the sound of the waterfall in Malaysia;-) It's real, but not experienced by the hearing.) ... > The need for liberation is the need to be liberated from the > clutching at reflexive knowing of what has already been and gone and > been duly known by itself. ... S; A little lost here. What's gone has gone and can never be known. Clutching at any knowing is a recipe for more clutching only. Understanding the presently appearing dhamma without clutching is what it's all about. ... > Comments very welcome. ... S: I'll be glad to hear your further comments, Herman. I've probably missed one or two of your more subtle points. Metta, Sarah p.s I came across the squinting post of yours I referred to having kept aside(#36544). Interesting. I'll leave it unless you wish to pursue at all. The discussion in India I referred to about the rapidly following eye door, body door and mind door experiences was in Varanasi(Banares), hotel garden, if you or Howard wish to listen. ====================== 40005 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:09am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi Howard, You gave an excellent summary of the points I was making. Thank you! I really appreciated reading the following in your own articulate words. My comments are mere minor quibbles and extra quotes only here: --- upasaka@a... wrote: > My understanding of your take on relations is the following: > 1) It is a fact that conditions are such that the coming together > of > certain ones of them are occurrences that are necessary and sufficient > for the > arising, at the same time or later, of various other conditions. … S: Yes … > 2) Conditions (dhammas), together with their features, are what > are > realities. … S: ‘are mostly realities’. (e.g. arammana paccaya includes concepts) …. 3) The characteristics of some conditions to lead to > others when > in proper combination with other conditions, as well as the > characteristics > of some conditions to depend, for their arising, upon such other groups > of > conditions, are among the important features of dhammas. Relations, per > se, are > not realities, but are merely conventional ways of thinking and speaking > about > the conditioning and conditionable features of dhammas as outlined > above. > 4) The Patthana, while ostensibly about "conditional relations", > is > actually about dhammas and their characteristics of serving as > conditions for > other dhammas and as owing their existence to the simultaneous or > earlier > occurrence of other conditions. … S: Yes …. > 5) When you speak of "forces" and the "power" to make other > dhammas > arise, this is only a manner of speaking. … S: I’d just like to point out that these are not my terms, but as used in the texts. U Narada in his preface to ‘Guide to Conditional Relations’ which I believe you have, Howard: “Again, Patthana deals with materiality-mentality as the cause, the effect and the conditioning force. So if one really knows materiality-mentality in these three ways one acquires Purity of Ovwercoming Doubt (ka’nkaavitara.na-visuddhi), is freed from rebirth in the lower regions and is usre of one’s destiny….” …. >You are not presuming hidden, > substantial forces and powers. This is just a way of speaking about > conditionality in > the sense of "when this is, that is. When this arises, that arises", > where the > conditionality is regular, dependable, and objective. (Again, I think of > the > example of a farmer explaining that a sprout has the power to grow into > a > plant, and then looking askance at the city dweller who asks him where > in the > sprout that power is to be found! ;-) …. S: Excellent! … > If my understanding expressed above of your position is on > target, > then I do think that your position is quite reasonable and certainly > quite > Buddhist. …. S: Of course, I don’t believe it to be ‘my position’ which I’ve invented but the explanation of the truth of conditions as given in the texts;-). From U Narada’s preface again: “In essence, Pth. deals with the conditioned (sappaccaya) and formed (sa’nkhata) states that arise and cease at every instant without a break and which make up what are said to be animate and inanimate things. These states arise dependent on root and the other conditions and are not at the will and mercy of any being. They do so, not from one cause alone, but from many causes such as the conditioning forces given in the Analytical Exposition of the Condtitions. So Pth. is the teaching of anatta. “The materiality-mentality, which constitutes the human being, is not willed nor incited by atta or by any abiding entity, but is due to many causes. For example, when visible objects are seen daily, the seeing is due to four causes: 1)visible object. 2) sensitive eye, 3) light and 4) attention. For it is only when these four causes are present at the same time that eye-consciousness arises to see or know a visible object. But with the arising of eye-consciousness with a very great object a mental process takes places according to the fixed nature of the mind (citta-niyama).” (Here U Narada adds a footnote to say that “the mental processes were not made up by the Commentators. They took them from proximity condition of Pth. Expounded by the Buddha”) …. >Still I wonder a bit about possible alternatives that confer > more than > mere conventional reality to relations. It is certainly clear to me that > general > relations such as "temporal predecessor relation" and "cooccurrence > relation" > are merely well-founded concepts. For that matter, general rupas such as > > "hardness" and "warmth" and general dhammas such as "pleasant feeling" > and "anger" > are also merely well-founded concepts. Any specific hardness or warmth > or > pleasant feeling or anger is an actual experiential occurrence, and is > not > concept. Likewise, it seems possible to me that any specific > co-occurring of dhammas > and any specific preceding of a dhamma by another are experiential > realities > as well. …. S: Yes. …. >I'm afraid that if we accord only 2nd class status to > (concrete) > relations, that is, to specific instances/occurrences of "relations", > then we may > be committing ourselves, except conventionally, to a static view of > things. … S: I don’t follow you here. …. > There is certainly a problem with reifying relations - there is > no > doubt about that. But there is also a problem with according them only > conventional reality, which means actually denying them any existence at > all from an > ultimate perspective. … Yes. We speak conceptually here, but refer to ultimate realities. Well-grounded concepts, I think you say. …. >I think there may be the need for some sort of > middle-way > perspective on this matter. One possible approach, that I'm not prepared > at > this point to dismiss outright, may be that of viewing concrete > relations as > kinds of real events, specifically multi-phenomenal events that occur > either > trans-temporally or uni-temporally, as compared to paramattha dhammas > which, if > viewed as events, must be viewed as events that are uni-phenomenal and > uni-temporal. …. S: Lost again at the end, sorry. One more quote from U Narada’s preface: “In the discourse of the Six sixes (M 111, 333) it is stated: ‘If anyone should say, “Eye is self,” that is not fitting. For the arising of the eye is to be seen, and its decaying. For the arising of the eye is to be seen and its decaying. Since its arising and decaying are to be seen one would thus be brought to the stage of saying: “Self arises in me and pases away.” Therefore if anyone should say, “Eye is self.” That is not fitting; in this way eye is not self’ and so on. This shows in detail the anatta nature of materiality-mentality. So when it is said that a being sees and so on, it is really the functions of materiality-mentality and, according to Pth. As shown above, the functions of the conditioning forces. It is not the functions of atta.” The entire Tipitaka (and commentaries) are indeed for the purpose of teaching us about dhammas as anatta Thank you again for your very well-considered feedback. Metta, Sarah ======= 40006 From: Egbert Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 3:18am Subject: Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Phil, > > > With the natural arising of seeing that there is the ongoing and > > avid adding or mending of a brick, or a wall, or a storey (story) > to the mental house-of-cards, and seeing the disadvantage of that > > activity, there will be a natural withdrawal from that. > > Hmm. Easier said than done. In my case it is so difficult to stop > myself from devouring suttas. Reading them at a patient pace and > reflecting on each one is good. But I don't and can't do that. So the Dhamma inferno gets fed more and more. It's easier to let go of > unwholesome thoughts related to troubles in daily life by reflecting > on the worldy concerns. > Perhaps I'm being a little dogmatic here, but when the sum disadvantage of any act or behaviour is *really* seen, the behaviour *will* be altered. On the converse, when behaviour isn't altered, it is because there is still the seeing of relatively more advantage than disadvantage in it. When there is rightly seeing the disadvantage of smoking, grog, loose women, theft, causing harm etc etc giving them up happens. (There was never a suggestion here, by the way, that you shouldn't be reading suttas). What people do is the sum total of all what they believe. There are always many conflicting impulses, all sorts of needs, wants and shoulds. > > > No need to attack the foundations of wrong views of self when the > > current view is from the 30th floor. In fact, better not to. Self- > > views are in the basement, and if you manage to weaken those > > foundations with the whole superstructure still in place, things > get > > very messy. > > I have been using a similar metaphor these days, but the foundation > I think of is what goes on with the unwholesome roots of desire, > aversion and delusion. The book I read "the Roots of Good and Evil" > was very good indeed and Nina suggested that I share some of it with > the group. That would be a good exercise to stay in the foundation. > > > The Buddha saw the disadvantage even in consciousness. But we > labour where we are. And that's where the disadvantage is to be > found. > Well, to tell the truth I've lost you here, Herman, but I think > we'd both agree that not trying to figure out exactly what you > mean what be a good example of letting go of thinking! This is not to say that you haven't made a good point - just that I will not try to figure it out now. I appreciate the above very much!! Now I'll go and wreck it by explaining :-) The Buddha said that he would not recommend being/becoming for even so long as it takes to click the fingers. (Book of Ones) And he taught the way to the end of becoming. But we, speaking generally, are ensconsed in any number of sensual pursuits, be they household, family, possesions, job, travel, intellectual pursuits etc etc. Going to work on the train everyday to keep the dream alive is where we will likely find our disadvantage, not in giving a foundation to consciousness, each moment again, which we also do, but without any knowing that we do it, or that it can be otherwise. Because if we did know it, we wouldn't be on that train :-) Hope that is clearer, All the best Herman PS One more quote from the Udana "The retinue of the gods and the unconverted, Clinging to the joys and delights of form, Depart into the power of the King of Death, To wither and to weep. But those who keep vigil by night and by day, And forsake all that is loveable in form; They truly dig up the root of sorrow. Hard is it to overcome the temptations That lead unto Death." > > > > With regards to your naturally arising resolution, good on you, > > Phil!!!!! > > Thanks for your encouragememnt. The above about letting go of > fiuguring out the point you were making was one of those naturally > arising resolutions. Like you said earier, wisdom guides us to let go > of thinking now and then. Patience and faith that that will continue > to happen. > On the other hand, wisdom will also let us know when it is time to > bear down hard on something we haven't figured out. > > Metta, > Phil 40007 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 3:28am Subject: [dsg] Re: Two or four stages of liberation ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Joop, > > Since I did my searching in Majjhima Nikaya, and the one example Christine > cited was from the Digha Nikaya, and as far as I know those are supposed to > contain the oldest Suttas, I don't see the basis for the claim of that scholar you > were citing. > > What's important is not debating this issue, but to read the Suttas on a > regular basis. (So that we don't need scholars to tell us (rightly or wrongly) > what's in the Suttas.) > > TG Hallo TG Reading the Sutta's: I do, more and more, so you are right. I have in general no problems with scholars, many of their books did help me on my buddhistic path The reason I put my message about two or four stages was also to make the culture of this dsg a little bit less orthodix (see my message a week ago to Sarah) Metta Joop 40008 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:00pm Subject: Future Harmony ... !!! Friends: The Seven Things Securing Social Welfare: 1: If people Meet regularly by holding frequent Councils, such community will make progress and not decline... 2: If people assemble in Harmony, interact in Harmony & depart in Harmony, such fellowship will prosper & not decay... 3: If people neither Authorize new Rules nor Abolish old Rules, such society will be stable & imperturbable... 4: If people honour, respect, revere & salute the Fathers, Elders & Leaders, such culture will grow & not fade... 5: If people Control & Reduce their Lusts, Desires Greed, such association will prosper and not fall into excess... 6: If people devote themselves to a simple living in remote houses, such federation will remain sound & unconfused... 7: If people cultivate Awareness, attentive to what they think, say & do, good friends will come & stay at ease. Such refined groups will develop as a fine perfume & not degrade society... Source: The 80 years old Gotama Buddha in year 483 BC India. Digha Nikaya 16 The Great Going Beyond. The Buddha's Last Days. Mahaparinibbana Sutta. [ii 77] Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 40009 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, the material in that sutta is more than just a little grandiose > to associate with my meditation. ;-) Friend Howard, I don't think the sutta I quoted is too grandiose to apply to your experience. Okay, since you don't see the connection of this sutta with your meditation experience, I will elucidate: With suffering as a requisite condition you developed faith. You developed faith in the Triple Gem and the value of meditation. Some people resign themselves to the suffering inherent in life, but you developed faith that there is a way to end suffering. Your strong faith is illustrated in your dedication to the meditation practice even though you hadn't witnessed stellar results for a period. With faith as a requisite condition you developed joy. This joy is evident where you write, "I settled down quickly". Joy doesn't mean bounding around the room in a delirium of ecstasy, as many associate with the meaning; joy is more a subtle type of gladness. Rather than facing the suffering inherent in life with undue stress, you had gladness/joy in the practice and therefore settled down quickly. With joy as a requisite condition you developed rapture. This rapture is evident where you write, "becoming quite calm". Rapture is an increased interest in the meditation subject which lightens the mind and body. Rapture can develop in various stages of intensity, and your rapture was maybe at the beginning level, but I believe it was still rapture in the meditation subject. With rapture as a requisite condition you developed tranquility. This is evident where you write "relaxed, and alert". Your mind began to be less disturbed by mental disturbances and this created relaxation in your mind and body. This relaxation and lessening of mental disturbances made your mind alert. With tranquility as a requisite condition you developed happiness. This is evident where you write, "and a combination of great calm and great clarity persisted until thinking resumed." Happiness is a pleasurable feeling that arises due to the calmness and clarity having a cumulative effect in the aggregate of feeling. With happiness as a requisite condition you developed concentration. This is evident where you write, "all thinking stopped, but clear seeing persisted." Concentration is the unification of the mind on the meditation object to the extent that discursive thinking stops. However, the mind will still be aware of the meditation object. With concentration as a requisite condition you developed knowledge and vision of things as they really are. This is evident where you write, "there were no "stories", and there were no conventional objects or things observed; but there was the very clear seeing of the experiential realities that underlie them: impersonal sights, sounds, bodily sensations, feelings, etc. all arising and ceasing in a stream of experience." This is where the development of insight (vipassana) lead to panna (wisdom) of things as they really are: impersonal phenomena. Now, here is where the transcendental dependent origination trails off probably due to lack of time meditating and a need for a deepening of the experience. The next stages would be: Disenchantment Dispassion Emancipation The Knowledge of Destruction So I believe that, according to the Buddha, you did complete the first part of the process to enlightenment, you just need to continue the process. I'm very excited for you! Glad that you will have the time due to your retirement to really work on this! Metta, James 40010 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 0:45am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, Sarah and Herman - A couple comments with regard to a little piece of your conversation (the material quoted with ">" is from Herman): > > Seeing is the knowing of visible object, hearing the knowing of > sound etc. This is immediate, unmediated, non-reflexive. .... S: If you mean knowing in the sense of experiencing.... .... > Knowing seeing, or knowing hearing etc is not-immediate, it is > mediated, it is reflexive, it is the knowing of a knowing, it is > consciousness of a consciousness. .... S: For all intents and purposes, the knowing of seeing etc is immediate. Here I take the knowing to be experiencing with panna. It's panna which knows. (I'm leaving aside the reflexive and non-reflexive for further elaboration if you wish to give it). ------------------------------------------- Howard: When just seeing or hearing etc, what is known is visual or auditory object, and at that moment there is no knowing *that* there is a knowing of that object. However, subsequent to the eye-door or ear-door experiencing, there is a complex mental process involving memory and recognition that results in (or constitutes) the knowing of that prior eye-door or ear-door experiencing. That process occurs quickly and directly following upon the original (direct) knowing of visual or auditory object, and it seems to our sluggishly-paced surface level of awareness to be simultaneous with the original knowing. This is how the matter seems to me, and I suspect that is what you, Herman, mean by a relexive knowing. ----------------------------------------- .... > Visible object, sound etc is its own knowing. ... S::-/ I don't follow. --------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not sure either, Herman. --------------------------------------- ... >When it is said that > cittas are so fast and short-lived, this is said relative to another > level, namely the knowing of seeing or the knowing of hearing. ... S: Whether there is or is not any knowing of dhammas, cittas are fast and short-lived. It's just the truth, not relative to anything. -------------------------------------- Howard: That makes no sense to me, Sarah. When a sequence of events is said to be rapid or slow, that is *always* with respect to something else. Otherwise it is meaningless. My understanding of saying that cittas are fast and short-lived is that many mindstates pass by having "the same" rupa as object. When the Buddha described this conventionally in the suttas, he was saying that thoughts etc come and go far more quickly - that mind changes far more quickly - than "material objects" change. Succinctly. Mind changes much more quickly than matter. ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40011 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ?etasikas' study corner 77 - Volition/latent tendencies. Hi Howard, op 18-12-2004 20:56 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: I have just one question with regard to > your > summation, "As we have seen, the latent tendencies are six kinds of > cetasikas: attachment (lobha), aversion (dosa) conceit (måna), wrong view > (ditthi), > doubt (vicikicchå) and ignorance (moha)" There does seem to be a case of > redundancy among these "six". Are not mana, ditthi, and vicikicca all aspects > of moha? > (Or is the term 'moha' actually more restricted than 'avijja', with 'avijja > meaning "ignorance" but 'moha' meaning only "confusion", which could be > considered a particular species of "ignorance"?) N: Mana is clinging to the importance of self in different ways, it arises with lobha-muulacitta. but each akusala citta is also accompanied by moha, ignorance. Ditthi is wrong view and there are many varieties of it: eternalims, annihilation belief, personality belief, clinging to rites and rituals, etc. It arises with lobha-muulacitta. Vicikicca, doubt, arises with moha-muulacitta, but it is not the same as ignorance. It is doubt about dhammas: is it this or is it that? Thus, they are not aspects of moha, but they are conditioned by moha. When there is doubt there is no pañña. Moha is not knowing dhammas as they are, and thus, it is hard to know this reality, it is dark; like a black curtain it darkens. You gave an example before that when feeling blue it seems that there is no specific object appearing. I am glad you gave this example, it made me think. Indeed, I find too that everything is vague, there is no clear knowledge of different objects. That is the characteristic of moha, but, it is hard to detect. Precisely because there is moha at such moments. Whereas when there is pañña, it lights up the darkness. Pañña clearly distinguishes different objects one at a time. Thus, when there is clear understanding, clear seeing, there is no doubt, we do not need to ask: of what object is there clear understanding? Pañña is very precise, no vagueness. One object appears at a time, whatever that may be. As to latent tendencies, I have to add something. We discussed the subject of feeling in India. Pleasant feeling for a pleasant object is also conditioned by the latent tendency of sense desire. Feeling itself is not a latent tendency but it is conditioned by it. Evenso unpleasant feeling, it is conditioned by the latent tendency of aversion. Nina. 40012 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:53am Subject: Dhamma Thread (192) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are different classification systems on citta. A. Vedana classification B. Hetu classification C. Jati classification D. Bhumi classification E. Kicca classification F. Multifunctional classification G. Dvara classification and many others. In the previous post, dvara or sense-doors have been explained. G. Dvara classification on citta 1. 46 cakkhu-dvarika cittas 2. 46 sota-dvarika cittas 3. 46 ghana-dvarika cittas 4. 46 jivha-dvarika cittas 5. 46 kaya-dvarika cittas 6. 67 mano-dvarika cittas Dvarika means 'at door'. There are 46 cittas that arise at eye-sense- door or at cakkhu dvara. These 46 cittas are 1. 1 pancadvaravajjana citta 2. 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas (akusala and kusala vipaka) 3. 2 sampaticchana cittas (akusala and kusala vipaka) 4. 3 santirana cittas (2 upekkha and 1 somanassa) 5. 1 votthapana citta ( which is manodvaravajjana citta) 6.29 kama-javana cittas( 12 akusala, 1 hasituppada, 8 mahakusala, 8 mahakiriya cittas) 7. 8 tadarammana cittas ( 8 mahavipaka cittas) ------- 46 cittas May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40013 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 4:55am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 12/20/04 5:09:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > >Still I wonder a bit about possible alternatives that confer > >more than > >mere conventional reality to relations. It is certainly clear to me that > >general > >relations such as "temporal predecessor relation" and "cooccurrence > >relation" > >are merely well-founded concepts. For that matter, general rupas such as > > > >"hardness" and "warmth" and general dhammas such as "pleasant feeling" > >and "anger" > >are also merely well-founded concepts. Any specific hardness or warmth > >or > >pleasant feeling or anger is an actual experiential occurrence, and is > >not > >concept. Likewise, it seems possible to me that any specific > >co-occurring of dhammas > >and any specific preceding of a dhamma by another are experiential > >realities > >as well. > …. > S: Yes. > …. > >I'm afraid that if we accord only 2nd class status to > >(concrete) > >relations, that is, to specific instances/occurrences of "relations", > >then we may > >be committing ourselves, except conventionally, to a static view of > >things. > … > S: I don’t follow you here. > …. > > There is certainly a problem with reifying relations - there is > >no > >doubt about that. But there is also a problem with according them only > >conventional reality, which means actually denying them any existence at > >all from an > >ultimate perspective. > … > Yes. We speak conceptually here, but refer to ultimate realities. > Well-grounded concepts, I think you say. > …. > >I think there may be the need for some sort of > >middle-way > >perspective on this matter. One possible approach, that I'm not prepared > >at > >this point to dismiss outright, may be that of viewing concrete > >relations as > >kinds of real events, specifically multi-phenomenal events that occur > >either > >trans-temporally or uni-temporally, as compared to paramattha dhammas > >which, if > >viewed as events, must be viewed as events that are uni-phenomenal and > >uni-temporal. > …. > S: Lost again at the end, sorry. > ==================== I apologize, Sarah. It was the theoretical mathematician speaking this time, not the poet! ;-) Let's just say that the content of the 1st paragraph, that you assented to, is the basis for what I write after that. But never mind - I'm just "thinking out loud" in the foregoing, and it's not very important anyway. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40014 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, James - In a message dated 12/20/04 8:24:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, James - > > > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Well, the material in that sutta is more than just a little > grandiose > >to associate with my meditation. ;-) > > Friend Howard, > > I don't think the sutta I quoted is too grandiose to apply to your > experience. Okay, since you don't see the connection of this sutta > with your meditation experience, I will elucidate: > > With suffering as a requisite condition you developed faith. You > developed faith in the Triple Gem and the value of meditation. Some > people resign themselves to the suffering inherent in life, but you > developed faith that there is a way to end suffering. Your strong > faith is illustrated in your dedication to the meditation practice > even though you hadn't witnessed stellar results for a period. > ------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, my confidence in the triple gem is very strong - I suspect unshakably strong. ----------------------------------- > > With faith as a requisite condition you developed joy. This joy is > evident where you write, "I settled down quickly". Joy doesn't mean > bounding around the room in a delirium of ecstasy, as many associate > with the meaning; joy is more a subtle type of gladness. Rather > than facing the suffering inherent in life with undue stress, you > had gladness/joy in the practice and therefore settled down quickly. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm. Well, "okay". --------------------------------------- > > With joy as a requisite condition you developed rapture. This > rapture is evident where you write, "becoming quite calm". Rapture > is an increased interest in the meditation subject which lightens > the mind and body. Rapture can develop in various stages of > intensity, and your rapture was maybe at the beginning level, but I > believe it was still rapture in the meditation subject. > --------------------------------- Howard: Okay on this. Almost always when I meditate there is some degree or other of rapture - sort of a physical elation or enthusiasm. -------------------------------- > > With rapture as a requisite condition you developed tranquility. > This is evident where you write "relaxed, and alert". Your mind > began to be less disturbed by mental disturbances and this created > relaxation in your mind and body. This relaxation and lessening of > mental disturbances made your mind alert. > > With tranquility as a requisite condition you developed happiness. > This is evident where you write, "and a combination of great calm > and great clarity persisted until thinking resumed." Happiness is a > pleasurable feeling that arises due to the calmness and clarity > having a cumulative effect in the aggregate of feeling. > > With happiness as a requisite condition you developed > concentration. This is evident where you write, "all thinking > stopped, but clear seeing persisted." Concentration is the > unification of the mind on the meditation object to the extent that > discursive thinking stops. However, the mind will still be aware of > the meditation object. > > With concentration as a requisite condition you developed knowledge > and vision of things as they really are. This is evident where you > write, "there were no "stories", and there were no conventional > objects or things observed; but there was the very clear seeing of > the experiential realities that underlie them: impersonal sights, > sounds, bodily sensations, feelings, etc. all arising and ceasing in > a stream of experience." This is where the development of insight > (vipassana) lead to panna (wisdom) of things as they really are: > impersonal phenomena. -------------------------------------- Howard: I won't say this last is untrue. It's just a matter of degree. I do think that insight was in effect, but certainly not so great as to merit an official label! ;-) My inclination is to respond with << Wow! I'm impressed!! Who *is* that guy who did all this?? I wonder whether he offers retreats!! ;-)) >> More seriously, thanks for the explanation. At least now I understand your point. --------------------------------------- > > Now, here is where the transcendental dependent origination trails > off probably due to lack of time meditating and a need for a > deepening of the experience. > > The next stages would be: > Disenchantment > Dispassion > Emancipation > The Knowledge of Destruction > > So I believe that, according to the Buddha, you did complete the > first part of the process to enlightenment, you just need to > continue the process. I'm very excited for you! Glad that you will > have the time due to your retirement to really work on this! > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Though I have zero doubt that you way overestimate, I thank you for the encouraging words, James. As for spending my time, well, I'll actually need a lot of that retirement time to figure out how come such an "advanced meditator" is still so stuck in the mud of Samsara Swamp!! ;-)) ---------------------------------------- > > Metta, James > ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40015 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dialogue with humor. Hi Ken and Howard, your dialogue is delightful with that touch of humor. Nina. op 20-12-2004 01:47 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > Thank you again. And thank you for not saying what you just said. > :-) In return, I will not say "Panna has to know what it is > looking for. 40016 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Dear Phil, op 19-12-2004 11:59 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > I know > that you are talking about a level of concentration that I don't > aspire to, and I know and well understand the reasons why Nina and > others advise against formal meditation, I am an adviser? ;-);-) I would not use use the word formal meditation, but meditation. Did you forget the meditations for every occasion for monks and laypeople? The Buddha's excellent qualities, metta, foulness of the body, death. You do not have to plan anything, let it come by conditions. Even amidst the bustle of people sitting down for our concert at my father's house, having in between conceit and nervous suspense about the coming performance. But we can gradually learn when lobha comes up. Or clinging to the idea of self. It is difficult because we are easily misled. Thus, whatever you and others like to do, that is fine, or call it formal meditation. But find out whether and when lobha is motivating your actions. And I think that clinging to result is contra productive. But check, check for yourself. I know you do this already. Listening to the Dhamma is good, considering is good, no matter on a cushion or not, gratefulness to the Buddha is good. Direct awareness cannot be forced, we know that. But, whatever happens does so because of conditions. We cannot plan, whatever happens happens anyway. Nina. 40017 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 0:00pm Subject: Re: Meditation Dear Nina, You stated, "But, whatever happens does so because of conditions. We cannot plan, whatever happens happens anyway". I do know of some discussers who have gone further to say that one should not have a goal at all, because 'whatever happens happens'. To me that sounds like going on a holiday travel without a map and without a plan; just get on a highway ( don't care which) and drive away. What's wrong with planning, and what's wrong with goal setting in our practice of the Dhamma? I think as long as we do not cling (because of craving) to a plan that we have set with a clear goal, and as long as we are flexible and simply use them for periodic checking of the progress for errors correction puposes, then we should be doing fine. One example, my plan for the next 6 months is to do two one-hour sitting- meditation sessions every day, with the goal to try with much greater effort to abandon all hindrances during any meditation session. I I do not succeed, I'll try again and again. Please comment and advise. ( Yes, I think of you as one of my advisers. Well, even President Bush has several advisors.) Kindest regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Phil, > > op 19-12-2004 11:59 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > I know > > that you are talking about a level of concentration that I don't > > aspire to, and I know and well understand the reasons why Nina and > > others advise against formal meditation, > > I am an adviser? ;-);-) > > I would not use use the word formal meditation, but meditation. Did you > forget the meditations for every occasion for monks and laypeople? The > Buddha's excellent qualities, metta, foulness of the body, death. You do not > have to plan anything, let it come by conditions. Even amidst the bustle of > people sitting down for our concert at my father's house, having in between > conceit and nervous suspense about the coming performance. But we can > gradually learn when lobha comes up. Or clinging to the idea of self. It is > difficult because we are easily misled. > Thus, whatever you and others like to do, that is fine, or call it formal > meditation. But find out whether and when lobha is motivating your actions. > And I think that clinging to result is contra productive. But check, check > for yourself. I know you do this already. > Listening to the Dhamma is good, considering is good, no matter on a cushion > or not, gratefulness to the Buddha is good. Direct awareness cannot be > forced, we know that. But, whatever happens does so because of conditions. > We cannot plan, whatever happens happens anyway. > Nina. 40018 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Two or four stages of liberation ? In a message dated 12/20/2004 3:30:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, jwromeijn@y... writes: Reading the Sutta's: I do, more and more, so you are right. I have in general no problems with scholars, many of their books did help me on my buddhistic path The reason I put my message about two or four stages was also to make the culture of this dsg a little bit less orthodix (see my message a week ago to Sarah) Metta Joop Hi Joop That's great on the reading. I'm pretty unorthodox in some ways. I think that's OK as long as it corresponds to the intent of the Suttas. But in this case I didn't find the scholarship to be well founded. You solicited comments, and since I had one, I gave it. Think of it as my Christmas present. ;-) TG 40019 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Five cords of sensual pleasure - why not six? In a message dated 12/19/2004 8:20:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Phil: "Why doesn't this and other suttas talk of six cords of sensual pleasure?" Hi Phil The Five Chords of sense pleasure are "external things" that we grasp after. They are almost like unbilical chords or conduits that keep us attached to things. The mind, perhaps is not included, because the grasping and attachment we have for mental objects had its "source" from the "Five Chords." That is, anything we can think about had to at some point been inculcated from the Five Chords. If we think about children learning, we don't just tell them to close there eyes and think about things. No. They have to experience the through the Five Chords to learn the things that latter they can think about. That makes the Five Chords more fundamental as something that "ties us" to the world. Does that make some sense? TG (BTW, the Buddha's uses the "Five Chords" in many Suttas. Its not a rarity.) 40020 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi, Tep - In a message dated 12/20/04 3:07:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepyawa@m... writes: > Well, even President Bush has several advisors. > ======================= Uh, oh! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40021 From: Egbert Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:14pm Subject: Re: 'Absolute' (was, False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities) Hi Jon, Thanks for this clarification. I see where you are coming from. There are some more musings interspersed below. > > > H: > > ... > > I am wondering about your usage of the terms "absolute" and "same". > > In the way I would use the terms, no thing can be the same as an > > absolute, and if it were, it would render the absolute relative. > > Am I misreading your usage? > > > > J: > > 'Absolute' (sometimes 'ultimate') is a translation of the Pali term > 'paramattha' from the commentaries. Let me explain my understanding of what > the term means in this context. > > > > All dhammas of a particular kind are said to exhibit the same esesntial characteristic whenever they arise (and this phenomenon in fact defines what a dhamma is). H : Sameness is a relation between two distinct, separate dhammas (things). The critical thing about relations is that their characteristic does not inhere in the things they relate. Relations inhere in a third-party observation. For example, it is not a characteristic of the sun that it is bigger than the moon. That would be a relation abstracted from a certain external viewpoint, while from another viewpoint the relation the moon is bigger than the sun may well obtain. To say that hearing is the same now as previously or elsewhere is also a relation, which characteristic does not inhere in hearing. So I think the key word in your explanatory sentence above sentence is "said" as in "are said to exhibit". That it is said is beyond doubt. That it is a problem, for me, is also beyond doubt. Relations are established by evaluation and comparison. And many hold that there is salvatory value in coming to know the characteristics of dhammas, which include, their relationship of sameness. Relations are, as I explained, established by third-party observation. Thus, of necessity, the knowledge of relationships is always brought about by imposition of a selective subject-object framework on what is experienced. As opposed to Nibbana, which is non-relational, non-comparitive, non- evaluative. I am sure that we agree that the Buddha taught Nibbana as salvation. I just cannot reconcile the later teachings of the necessity to come to know the inherent and relational characteristics of dhammas with Nibbana or a path to it. The absolute is. Full stop. That's just it. That's all there is. It ceases to be that the moment it is related or disected or known in any way. Just a little quote from the Paramatthaka Sutta, SN IV,5 "Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. That brahmana who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be identified in the world? " Hope it wasn't too rambly :-) Kind Regards Herman > > > > So the dhamma that is, say, attachment is recognisably (to panna) of the > same esesntial characteristic whenever it arises, that is, for all beings at > all times, regardless of the object, intensity or other circumstances of any > particular experience. > > > > Likewise, the experience of hearing sound is in essence the same for > everyone at all moments of the bare experiencing of audible object, before > there is any recognition of the 'source' or 'meaning' or 'direction' etc of > the sound (in the texts this is referred to as attention to the general > appearance and detail of the sense-door object). >0 > > > Now saying that the moment of bare experience of the sense-door object is in > essence the same does not of course mean that everyone's experience on > hearing the 'same' sound is subjectively identical, since what we mean by an > 'experience' in this context is not the actual moment of hearing of sound > but later mind-door moments or processes during which the previously > experienced audible data is processed (i.e., attention is paid to the > general appearance and detail). > > > > In short, 'absolute' has a specific meaning in the context, so whether or > not one agrees with the choice of term, it needs to be considered in that > light. > > > > H: > > And what is to be said about the visual experiences of a colour- > > blind being and a not colour blind being sitting in a room with > > every surface painted red? I can see that whatever is experienced > > individually is absolutely experienced, but in which way are their > > experiences the same? > > > > J: > > The same can be said about this as can be said about different moments of > visual experience by the same person: the moments of bare sense- door > experience share the same essential characteristic, namely, the experience > of visible object through that doorway. > > > > Hoping that this clarifies the usage of the term 'absolute'. Not to be > thought of in terms of its usage in other contexts. > > > > Jon > > 40022 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Absolute' (was, False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas an... Hi, Herman and Jon - I suspect this thread is critically important, and extremely difficult. I'mnot certain that 'paramattha' doesn't have multiple meanings. One of these is "ultimate" in the sense of "primitive" or "irreducible". Another is "absolute" in the sense of "non-relative". These are not at all the same. Nagarjuna, BTW, describes the Buddha as the teacher of relativity. It does seem to me that relativity, dependency, and emptiness are interrelated, and lie at the core of the Dhamma. Where "absolute" fits in I'm not at all sure. With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/20/04 4:21:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for this clarification. I see where you are coming from. > There are some more musings interspersed below. > > > > > > > >H: > > > >... > > > >I am wondering about your usage of the terms "absolute" > and "same". > > > >In the way I would use the terms, no thing can be the same as an > > > >absolute, and if it were, it would render the absolute relative. > > > >Am I misreading your usage? > > > > > > > >J: > > > >'Absolute' (sometimes 'ultimate') is a translation of the Pali term > >'paramattha' from the commentaries. Let me explain my > understanding of what > >the term means in this context. > > > > > > > >All dhammas of a particular kind are said to exhibit the same > esesntial characteristic whenever they arise (and this phenomenon in > fact defines what a dhamma is). > > > H : > Sameness is a relation between two distinct, separate dhammas > (things). The critical thing about relations is that their > characteristic does not inhere in the things they relate. Relations > inhere in a third-party observation. > > For example, it is not a characteristic of the sun that it is bigger > than the moon. That would be a relation abstracted from a certain > external viewpoint, while from another viewpoint the relation the > moon is bigger than the sun may well obtain. > > To say that hearing is the same now as previously or elsewhere is > also a relation, which characteristic does not inhere in hearing. > > So I think the key word in your explanatory sentence above sentence > is "said" as in "are said to exhibit". > > That it is said is beyond doubt. That it is a problem, for me, is > also beyond doubt. Relations are established by evaluation and > comparison. And many hold that there is salvatory value in coming to > know the characteristics of dhammas, which include, their > relationship of sameness. > > Relations are, as I explained, established by third-party > observation. Thus, of necessity, the knowledge of relationships is > always brought about by imposition of a selective subject-object > framework on what is experienced. > > As opposed to Nibbana, which is non-relational, non-comparitive, non- > evaluative. I am sure that we agree that the Buddha taught Nibbana > as salvation. I just cannot reconcile the later teachings of the > necessity to come to know the inherent and relational > characteristics of dhammas with Nibbana or a path to it. > > The absolute is. Full stop. That's just it. That's all there is. It > ceases to be that the moment it is related or disected or known in > any way. > > Just a little quote from the Paramatthaka Sutta, SN IV,5 > > "Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up > (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those > who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not > [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to > either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another > existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on > investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the > seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. > That brahmana who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be > identified in the world? " > > Hope it wasn't too rambly :-) > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40023 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 2:49pm Subject: RE: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Sarah and Howard, Seeing as I managed to loose a few people at this point below, I better explain some more :-) .... > Visible object, sound etc is its own knowing. ... S::-/ I don't follow. --------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not sure either, Herman. --------------------------------------- In this explanation, I'll refer to sound only, because it's easy to type :-) Sound is hearing is consciousness is knowing. As experience, it is one/not-different. Dissected sound is not an experience, it is thinking, it is reflexive, it is consciousness of (selected and expired) consciousness. As components, sound as separate from hearing as separate from consciousness as separate from knowing do not happen as experience, they happen as thoughts of relations that in reality are one. I hope that's a bit clearer, but I'm happy to persevere :-) All the best Herman 40024 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 4:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi, Howard - > > > Well, even President Bush has several advisors. > > > Uh, oh! ;-)) > May I ask how you understand that sentence? What do you think it really means? ;-(| Regards, Tep ======== 40025 From: m. nease Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau Dear Sarah (and Suravira et al.), ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2004 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau > I'd > just like to mention that he has made it clear before that he is Charles > Clifford, mentioned the website and reasons for it, the meaning of his > (new) name and also more on his understanding of Mahayana/Theravada. OOPS--Sorry! This highlights my failure to keep up with the list, my heartfelt apologies all around... > (I > just mention this in case there's any suggestion that Suravira hasn't been > 'upfront' with us here). I'm truly sorry if my message suggested this--he seemed perfectly 'up front', I was just carried away by curiosity re. his moniker, which led to my unfortunate proliferations and speech... Given my inability to keep up with the flow of messages, I think I should just lurk until I'm able to pay proper attention. To Charles or Suravira or by any other name, really my sincere apologies--I won't bother you again. mike 40026 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:25pm Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, Herman (and Sarah) - In a message dated 12/20/04 5:56:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Sarah and Howard, > > Seeing as I managed to loose a few people at this point below, I better > explain some more :-) > > .... > >Visible object, sound etc is its own knowing. > ... > S::-/ I don't follow. > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > I'm not sure either, Herman. > --------------------------------------- > > > In this explanation, I'll refer to sound only, because it's easy to type > :-) > > Sound is hearing is consciousness is knowing. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Hey, that's sure clearer now!! ;-)) Actually, I do believe I get you now. I believe that what you may be saying is the following: Sound, as phenomenon (i.e., experiential reality) and not as the physicist's rarefaction and compaction of molecules, is never unheard, nor is there hearing without sound. They are inseparable aspects of a single reality that is neither more nor less than the sound and its experiential presence. It seems that you are saying that sounds, sights, bodily sensations, etc are nondual experiential realities, without separation of knowing from known, and that this is clear to you. ------------------------------------------- As experience, it is> > one/not-different. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I'm a little bit more inclined to say "not-two" than to say "one". I say that, because for me the sound and its experiential presence are inseparable but yet not identical. I think of inside and outside surfaces of a box - inseparable (neither exists without the other), yet not the same. I distinguish between non-duality and monism. ------------------------------------------ > Dissected sound is not an experience, it is thinking, it is reflexive, > it is consciousness of (selected and expired) consciousness. As > components, sound as separate from hearing as separate from > consciousness as separate from knowing do not happen as experience, they > happen as thoughts of relations that in reality are one. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, yes. In auditory experience, there is just the sound. Experientially, there is no distinction between the sound and its presence. We can truthfully say "There was just the sound." But doesn't that also say there was just the presence of sound? And what is experiential presence other than consciousness? The slogan 'not-two' gets my vote. ;-) The reality is such that the mutual dependence of the sound and the consciousness of the sound is such as to make each of them empty, each nothing-in-and-of-itself. -------------------------------------- > > I hope that's a bit clearer, but I'm happy to persevere :-) > > All the best > > > Herman > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40027 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi, Tep - In a message dated 12/20/04 7:09:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepyawa@m... writes: > Hi, Howard - > > > > >>Well, even President Bush has several advisors. > >> > > Uh, oh! ;-)) > > > > > May I ask how you understand that sentence? What do you think it > really means? ;-(| > > > Regards, > > Tep > > ======================== I was just fooling around, Tep. :-) I wasn't adopting any particular position with regard to the virtues or deficits of the President, his policies, or his advisers. It is simply that the U.S. populace is rather strongly split when it comes to this President, with few opinions falling in the middle of the extremes of slavish approval and livid hatred. So, for those with opposite perspectives, any association of an "adviser" with Bush's advisers would induce quite opposite responses! ;-) I found that fact amusing. That's all. It was just a "throw-away line" on my part, and nothing of any import at all. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40028 From: Frank Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:08pm Subject: the jhanas (by Ajahn Brahmavamso) - ebook version (delurking for a few nanoseconds) I was overjoyed when I found out Jeff (from jhanas@yahoogroups) transcribed the booklet into a free pdf file. It still boggles my mind that very mediocre and horrible books on Buddhism are international bestsellers, while many of the truly excellent books and articles on Buddhism authored by eminent cultivators are available for free, under promoted, and sadly, under-read. you can get the free ebook here: http://www.4nobletruths.com/exceptional_ebooks/jhanas_brahm.htm (I recently purchased this domain name and webhosting service with high bandwidth and storage) Or on Jeff's website (search for brahmavamso + "the jhanas" in the message archive at jhanas@yahoogroups) Greetings to old friends on the list, Happy Holidays, much metta, and may you experience abundant fruits from your meditative practice. (re-lurking and concentrating my efforts on my right concentration and right effort...) ===== frank@4... 40029 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:27pm Subject: MIke- Wise attention & Infections (was: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau) Hi Mike, --- "m. nease" wrote: > OOPS--Sorry! This highlights my failure to keep up with the list, my > heartfelt apologies all around... …. S:No need for any apologies – it’s not easy for anyone to keep up with the list all the time or keep track of members. One of those posts I linked you too showed one of my big gaffes when I got Suravira (then Charles shortened to Chuck) mixed up with another Charles, also shortened to Chuck who recently mentioned he’d be visiting B.Bodhi. Like you, I hope Suravira (and the other Chuck)adds more as you suggested for clarification. …. > Given my inability to keep up with the flow of messages, I think I > should > just lurk until I'm able to pay proper attention. …. S: On the contrary, if you post more, you’ll be bound to pay more attention;-). Either way of course, proper attention (yoniso manasikara)fortunately doesn’t depend or not depend on our making any gaffes. I remember feeling embarrassed when I realised I’d got the Chucks mixed up, but even at such a time there can be wise attention and awareness of such embarrassment, conceit and other unwholesome qualities – none of them ‘Me’ fortunately;-). Whilst on this subject of defilements, I was interested in your comments to Howard about ‘infections’. You mentioned that as phassa and vedana are ‘universals’ , they arise ‘with cittas that are defiled by akusala cetasikas such as moha and lobha etc’ and that you see ‘it is the citta that is defiled, not the cetasikas’ and that phassa and vedana are not defilements here. Surely, when the universals such as phassa and vedana arise with akusala cittas, they are akusala and their qualities are inherently different from those arising with sobhana cittas? In other words, they are of the same jati as the cittas and other cetasikas they arise with and therefore vary considerably accordingly.In other words, phassa and vedana can be kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya even though they still have the common characteristics of contacting or feeling. (In the section on vedana from ‘Cetasikas’ there were some examples such as how the pleasant feeling accompanying cittas rooted in lobha is quite different from the pleasant feeling accompanying cittas rooted in generosity). Furthermore, I understand the cetasikas to condition each other as well as the citta they accompany and anusayas (latent defilement tendencies) to be carried by the accompanying cetasikas (not just those listed under anusayas such as greed or conceit), as well as by the cittas. For example, when greed accumulates, there is also the tendency to have a certain kind of pleasant feeling on account of certain objects and for sanna and phassa to mark and contact these objects at the same time, all conditioning each other by sahajata paccaya I believe. Mike, I’d be very glad for any comments you might add here – it’s not a simple matter at all. Also, you mentioned’ the correlation between the (akusala) javana process, akusala kamma and pa.ticcasamuppaada. The second link, sankhara, refers to abhisankhara or kamma of the degree of kamma patha that can bring results of the degree of rebirth consciousness. This is the condition for vinnana or concsciousness of course. But kamma cannot bring its resuilt without the assistance of many other conditions, particularly decisive support condition and this of course is the way that accumulated latent tendencies perpetuate or accumulate in the flow of cittas, including vipaka cittas. Have I missed the point? There’s a lot of great detail in ch 6 of Dispeller, Classification of the Structure of Conditions. Please let me know if I’ve missed your points at all or if anything here seems questionable or wrong! I always value your comments and opinions of course., so don’t retreat into lurker-land!! Metta, Sarah ======= 40030 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the jhanas (by Ajahn Brahmavamso) - ebook version Hi Frank, Well, even though the e-add looks different, we've only ever had one Frank I remember and here you sound like 'our Frank: --- Frank wrote: > > (delurking for a few nanoseconds) .... S: ;-) ;-)Can't you stay just a little bit l-o-n-g-e-r? ... > I was overjoyed when I found out Jeff (from > jhanas@yahoogroups) transcribed the booklet into a > free pdf file. It still boggles my mind that very > mediocre and horrible books on Buddhism are > international bestsellers, while many of the truly > excellent books and articles on Buddhism authored by > eminent cultivators are available for free, under > promoted, and sadly, under-read. > > you can get the free ebook here: > > http://www.4nobletruths.com/exceptional_ebooks/jhanas_brahm.htm > (I recently purchased this domain name and webhosting > service with high bandwidth and storage) ... Thanks for the info and link. As for the 'mediocre and horrible'best-sellers - well, you'd know the reasons and conditions as well as any of us. ... > Greetings to old friends on the list, Happy Holidays, > much metta, and may you experience abundant fruits > from your meditative practice. > > (re-lurking and concentrating my efforts on my right > concentration and right effort...) ... S: thx for the good wishes, Frank. Hope life and practice in Hawaii are going well for you. If we can persuade you to join in Howard's current meditation thread and/or other jhana threads such as the B.Bodhi one, I'd be very glad to hear your input. In any case, best wishes for the holidays and thx for dropping by with your recommendation. Look f/w to anymore;-). Metta, Sarah p.s I'm still Astanga-ing (Mysore style)most early mornings. How about you? ============================================================ 40031 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:56pm Subject: Re: MIke- Wise attention & Infections : -> Hello MIke and Sarah, I relate to this "lurkers' dilemma", so smiled when I read this post Mike. For me, your posts are pleasing to read and helpful, so I join with Sarah here and ask you not to lurk for too long. It is hard for me to keep up with all the posts, and when I do read one that I want to reply to, I often take a while to construct my comment and by then it seems too late. It is wonderful that we are all different, just imagine if we were all prolific posters.......my head would surely explode! Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Mike, > > --- "m. nease" wrote: > > OOPS--Sorry! This highlights my failure to keep up with the list, my > > heartfelt apologies all around... > …. > S:No need for any apologies – it's not easy for anyone to keep up with the > list all the time or keep track of members. ...snip.... > > Given my inability to keep up with the flow of messages, I think I > > should > > just lurk until I'm able to pay proper attention. > …. > S: On the contrary, if you post more, you'll be bound to pay more > attention;-). Either way of course, proper attention (yoniso > manasikara)fortunately doesn't depend or not depend on our making any > gaffes. .....snip..... Please let me know if I've missed your points at > all or if anything here seems questionable or wrong! I always value your > comments and opinions of course., so don't retreat into lurker- land!! > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 40032 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:29pm Subject: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hello Howard and Jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jonothan Abbott" wrote: > Hi, Howard > > > > The passage that follows, taken from Bhikkhu Bodhi's 'Roots of > Existence'translation of the Mulapariyaya Sutta, has I think a direct > bearing on your comments relating to the question of dhammas bearing their > own characteristics. > > > > ******************* > > Sutta: "the exposition of the root of all things" (sabbadhamma) > > > > Cy: Here the word [dhamma] occurs in the sense of things endowed with a > > specific nature. This is the word-meaning: "They bear their own > > characteristics, thus they are dhammas" (attano lakkha.na"m dhaarentii ti > > dhammaa). > .....snip....... > Howard: At the level of paramattha dhammas, there are just the dhammas, not > > characteristics of them. If there is a dhamma and also a characteristic of > the dhamma that is not the dhamma itself, and if the characteristic is not > imagined - if it is a reality, then that characteristic must be either a > rupa, a citta, a cetasika, or nibbana according to Abhidhamma.This kind of > close "quantum reality" analysis, Jon, just falls apart the deeper we get > into it. We are talking in all this great detail about something we have no > direct experience with whatsoever as though we *know* what we are talking > about. But when it all starts to dissolve as the analysis gets too fine, we > ought to take that as a warning, I think, and back off a bit. > Azita: Isn't it interesting that each person's understanding is different. You see, for me, none of this falls apart but becomes clearer as 'the deeper we get into it'. Instead of using the royal 'we' Howard, you could maybe make what's called 'I' statements. You see, when you include everyone in your understanding of how things are, then its kind of hard to have a fruitful discussion, IMHO. For me, it does not 'dissolve' and therefore why would I take it as a warning and back off - man, its just starting to get interesting :-) Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 40033 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:44pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 79- Volition/cetanaa (i) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** We read in the Gradual Sayings (Book of the Eights, Chapter IV, §10, Very trifling) about different results which are produced by akusala kammas. The ‘very trifling result’ which is mentioned in the sutta is the unpleasant result which arises in the course of one’s life. We read: ... -Monks, taking life, when pursued, practised, increased, brings one to hell, to an animal’s womb, to the Peta realm1; what is the very trifling result of taking life is the shortening of a man’s life. Monks, stealing, when pursued…, brings one to hell…; the very trifling result is a man’s loss of wealth. Monks, fleshly lusts when pursued…, bring one to hell…; the very trifling result is a man’s rivalry and hatred. Monks, lying when pursued…, brings one to hell…; the very trifling result is the slandering and false-speaking for a man. Monks, backbiting, when pursued…, brings one to hell…; the very trifling result is the breaking up of a man’s friendships. Monks, harsh speech, when pursued…, brings one to hell…; the very trifling result is an unpleasant noise for a man. Monks, frivolous talk, when pursued…, brings one to hell…; the very trifling result is unacceptable speech for a man. Monks, drinking strong drink, when pursued, practised, increased, brings one to hell, to an animal’s womb, to the Peta realm; what is the -very trifling result of drinking strong drink is madness for a man. ... When kusala kamma patha is performed, kusala cetanå “wills” kusala, and it also coordinates the tasks of the other dhammas it accompanies. Kusala cetanå is capable of producing its appropriate result later on in the form of rebirth in a happy plane or it can produce its result in the course of life in the form of pleasant experiences through the senses. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40034 From: Date: Mon Dec 20, 2004 7:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi, Azita - In a message dated 12/21/04 2:32:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, gazita2002@y... writes: > Hello Howard and Jon, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Jonothan Abbott" > wrote: > >Hi, Howard > > > > > > > >The passage that follows, taken from Bhikkhu Bodhi's 'Roots of > >Existence'translation of the Mulapariyaya Sutta, has I think a > direct > >bearing on your comments relating to the question of dhammas > bearing their > >own characteristics. > > > > > > > >******************* > > > >Sutta: "the exposition of the root of all things" (sabbadhamma) > > > > > > > >Cy: Here the word [dhamma] occurs in the sense of things endowed > with a > > > >specific nature. This is the word-meaning: "They bear their own > > > >characteristics, thus they are dhammas" (attano lakkha.na"m > dhaarentii ti > > > >dhammaa). > > > .....snip....... > > >Howard: At the level of paramattha dhammas, there are just the > dhammas, not > > > >characteristics of them. If there is a dhamma and also a > characteristic of > >the dhamma that is not the dhamma itself, and if the characteristic > is not > >imagined - if it is a reality, then that characteristic must be > either a > >rupa, a citta, a cetasika, or nibbana according to Abhidhamma.This > kind of > >close "quantum reality" analysis, Jon, just falls apart the deeper > we get > >into it. We are talking in all this great detail about something we > have no > >direct experience with whatsoever as though we *know* what we are > talking > >about. But when it all starts to dissolve as the analysis gets too > fine, we > >ought to take that as a warning, I think, and back off a bit. > > > > Azita: Isn't it interesting that each person's understanding is > different. You see, for me, none of this falls apart but becomes > clearer as 'the deeper we get into it'. > > Instead of using the royal 'we' Howard, you could maybe make > what's called 'I' statements. You see, when you include everyone in > your understanding of how things are, then its kind of hard to have a > fruitful discussion, IMHO. > > For me, it does not 'dissolve' and therefore why would I take it > as a warning and back off - man, its just starting to get > interesting :-) > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita > ================================= I don't mean to back off from *looking* closely. I think it is important to look as closely and carefully as one can. When I do so, what seemed solid and self-existent disappears as such. When I look more and more closely with reasoning, however, with the intention of making an ultimate analysis, there is a different sort of falling apart. The reasoning itself falls apart, and dissolves into convoluted contradictions. I very much believe in the mind's capacity to directly see what is what, exactly as it is. That capacity, that perfect congnitive functioning is what I understand by 'wisdom'. And I think that one way to get to it is to reach the limit of reasoning - to reach the point that the reasoning falls apart, with no explanation whatsoever working. With metta, Howard P.S. There! Not one "we"! ;-) /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40035 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 0:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' Dear Joop, Back to our thread here.. --- jwromeijn wrote: > Thanks for your kind letter to me. I will react on two topics: > > 1 Is sabhava, translated as self-nature, not a form of atta-belief ? … S: Could well be – it would depend on the translator’s and reader’s understanding of the term. …. > That was my question, based on the wellknown article of Karunadasa. … S: So sometimes we have to look at different translations and discuss more about the term itself as you’ve been doing. For myself, the more I read the Tipitaka and Pali commentaries, the more I know that whatever the translation of particular terms, there is definitely no suggestion of there being any atta in the original texts themselves. However, some writers can read the Abhidhamma in Pali and still be convinced there is an atta. So it all comes back to our own understanding when we read and consider. I think these particular questions on sabhava only arise for those who are familiar with the Mahayana teachings where it has other connotations. … > have already reacted on the answer a year ago of Nina, because > Christine and Ken told me this discussion has alreay been in the dsg. > In this place I say: when Nina is right and sabhava > means 'characteristics' than I have no problem, I even think it can > than even better be translated with 'properties' of dhammas in the > same way that in physics particles like an electron have properties. …. S: That’s fine. I remember we discussed different translations before. ‘distinct nature’ or attributes/properties…. …. > But like the Mahayana-term 'Buddha-Nature' also the term 'self- > nature' mades me suspicous: that the very strong and many time > unconscious working atta-belief in the dominant Hindu culture of > India has been working, and even has influenced commentators. (I > don't have his books with me now but I think Kalupahana has > influenced me in this topic). … S: The problem as I see it is not with the ancient commentaries, but the modern interpretations of them. I don’t think Kalupahana helps in this regard from what has been posted here. Here’s a quote from Vism 1, n14 which I like and which is relevant to other threads: “ ‘When there is impingement of door and object’: what is intended is: when a visible datum as object has come into the eye’s focus. “One sees”: one looks (oloketi); for when the consciousness that has eye-sensitivity as its material support is disclosing (obhaasente) by means of the special quality of its support a visible datum as object that is assisted by light (aaloka), then it is said that a person possessed of that sees the visible datum. And here the illuminating is the revealing of the visible datum according to its individual essence (sabhava), in other words, the apprehending of it experientially (paccakkhato).” …. > 2 What is an orthodox Theravadan view? >You are really to humble > talking about your limited understan?ing. … S: It’s not meant to be humble at all. Just the truth, but better not to think of ‘mine’ or anyone’s – just dhammas which arise and fall away. …. > - Perhaps it's not nice of nice but exact talking about limited > understanding of a 'normal' human being belongs to orthodoxy. To me > that term means that there is a big body of knowledge existing > outside individual human beings to which I (not enlightened) can only > partly get access. … S: This is true….we can only ever get a little ‘access’ or taste of the Buddha’s wisdom Even the great arahants’ understanding was limited in comparison. … > - A body of knowledge in the second place that can no more get > changed, not under the influence of new empirical facts and not under > the infuence of deeper insight; in one of my first messages I said I > need a new citta (the 90/122 to to say), a 'social citta', with the > content "being aware of and feeling connected with another sentient > being, especially with another human being". I got the impression > that proposing a new citta, or proposing a change in the system of > the 28 (?) rupa's is not possible. …. S: No reason why we can’t add a Joop social citta 90/122;-) I think that when we understand more about Joop social citta, we’ll find it is covered by others, like the way we find kanti (patience) is included in viriya (energy). But it takes more reflecting and considering and awareness to know. By understanding more about dhammas as anatta, we understand others better and see that regardless of wealth or poverty, social status and so on, there are pleasant and unpleasant experiences all the time for everyone through the sense doors. Because of the defilements, there are also lots and lots of stories and further clinging and aversion towards them. We’re all in the same boat in this regard, as Phil always says. So the development of awareness and wisdom lead to more understanding, metta and sympathy for others and more Joop social cittas;-). …. > - In the third place is, in general terms, an orthodox view a 'greedy > view': difficult to be a partly Theravadin and combine that with > ideas of Mahayana, natural science and agnosticism. Of course it is > possible in this DSG, you have assured me but still it is difficult > with so much orthodoxy in the dsg that I think many times: I don't > belong in this Forum. …. S: I’m glad Herman gave a kind answer to this and that you’ve said you won’t be raising it again;-). Unless we’ve reached the stage of stream-entry, there are bound to be wrong views, mixed up views and off-track views arising. …. > - In the fourth place the discussions don't have enough a 'historical > dimension', perhaps that is something beling to the Indian culture. > It is nearly denied that there is any difference between the > Teachings of the Buddha and the Abhidhamma, that there is any > difference between the Tipitaka and the commentaries. …. S: I can only answer for myself and say I don’t find any difference or problem in this regard, but I’m happy to look at anything you’ve read and wish to raise along these lines. …. >And when it is > not denied it is found found important that and why such differences > existed. To me there is an analogy between historical processes and > individual processes so it's not just an intellectual but also a > spiritual need to know the history of ideas. …. S: Again, I think the problem is more one of interpretation than actually existing in the texts. But please raise anything of concern (and we’ll probably be able to direct you to a section of the archives or U.P. where it’s been discussed at length before;-). You’d have loved all the discussions with Michael B before. …. > > That's enough for this moment, I think. > In another post, to Alan, I have said some things about insight > meditation. …. S: Thank you. I saw that. Just keep raising your concerns and issues, Joop. No need to give us orthodox labels;-). Metta, Sarah ======== 40036 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The jhaanas and the Lay Disciples Dear Alan, --- AlanLam wrote: > Dear Sarah, > > Thank you for the kind respond. It is better late then never. > > I am happy with your respond, as I have no knowledge of Pali language > at all. I am just a pure cultivator. I spoke from just my Vipassana > experience only. …. S: I understand. I was very glad to read your comments. My point was just that we read particular terms in translation such as ‘secluded’ very much according to our understanding of ‘vipassana experience’. If we have the idea that we need to go to isolated spots or sit in a particular posture or concentrate on a special object in order to have ‘vipassana experience’, this is how we will read such passages. Sometimes, reflecting further on the real meaning of particular terms such as seclusion or detachment (viveka) can help us to understand the meaning of vipassana experience more deeply I think. I hope you’ll contribute more on these threads. …. > On Khun Sujin, my friend being the nephew, from the 1st mother who > has passed away. He is the oldest among the children. I heard they > have made an arrangement to meet for New year Dinner gathering. …. S: I think you mean he is the son of K.Sujin’s elder sister. I remember him when he was a school boy;-). Now some of the family members are becoming more interested in the Dhamma I know. …. > > I used to hear from him about his Aunt's Dharma activites and another > E-Sangha member that visit the centre once or twice a year to discuss > dharma activities. But no, I did not and have not visit to the centre as > yet. I do presumed I will do so most probably after this year then. … S: Sukin has given you his phone number and you might like to go along with him. You’ll be most welcome. We’ll also put a message on the list when we’re able to visit next from Hong Kong. I’m glad Chris re-introduced herself to you here as well;-). Metta, Sarah ======= 40037 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:16am Subject: RE: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Howard, This is very good, very useful. > > Sound is hearing is consciousness is knowing. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Hey, that's sure clearer now!! ;-)) Actually, I do believe I get you now. I believe that what you may be saying is the following: Sound, as phenomenon (i.e., experiential reality) and not as the physicist's rarefaction and compaction of molecules, is never unheard, nor is there hearing without sound. They are inseparable aspects of a single reality that is neither more nor less than the sound and its experiential presence. It seems that you are saying that sounds, sights, bodily sensations, etc are nondual experiential realities, without separation of knowing from known, and that this is clear to you. ------------------------------------------- As experience, it is> > one/not-different. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I'm a little bit more inclined to say "not-two" than to say "one". ------ Herman : Not-two also has my vote for sure!! Thanks and Kind Regards Herman I say that, because for me the sound and its experiential presence are inseparable but yet not identical. I think of inside and outside surfaces of a box - inseparable (neither exists without the other), yet not the same. I distinguish between non-duality and monism. ------------------------------------------ > Dissected sound is not an experience, it is thinking, it is reflexive, > it is consciousness of (selected and expired) consciousness. As > components, sound as separate from hearing as separate from > consciousness as separate from knowing do not happen as experience, they > happen as thoughts of relations that in reality are one. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, yes. In auditory experience, there is just the sound. Experientially, there is no distinction between the sound and its presence. We can truthfully say "There was just the sound." But doesn't that also say there was just the presence of sound? And what is experiential presence other than consciousness? The slogan 'not-two' gets my vote. ;-) The reality is such that the mutual dependence of the sound and the consciousness of the sound is such as to make each of them empty, each nothing-in-and-of-itself. 40038 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] the jhanas (by Ajahn Brahmavamso) - ebook version Frank, It is way cool to hear from you. Truth be known, if you are the Frank I think you are (Frank K), I have often wondered how you are faring. I am glad to see you are maintaining your strong resolution. Be well Herman 40039 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: Sarah Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > I had problems with some of this. Starting with # 4... Are you saying > that > Stream Entry eliminates false views permanently ("for good") ? That's > what it > sounds like. Only the "grossest" types of false views are eradicated by > the > Stream Entrant: False-belief in Self, skeptical doubt, and attachment to > rules > and ritual. … S: KenH is addressing this point with you. Yes I am saying that ‘Stream Entry eliminates false views permanently ("for good") ‘. All false views are based on self-view, so once this is eradicated, all other false views are eradicated too. We read the same texts, so no need to give you references;-). …. > However, you proceed and do the exact same thing that you criticise > Suravira > for doing. You claim that: -- "He taught us to develop understanding > and > awareness > of the paramattha dhammas directly when they appear." … S: It all depends on whether our comments are in accord with the Buddha’s teaching or not and it’s fine to question each other on this;-). I was picking up on Suravira’s use of paramattha dhammas when he referred to ‘within the conceptual perspective……realizing the nature of paramattha dhammas’. So I knew the terminology was not an issue for him (He’d used ‘paramattha’ throughout his post in fact. If I had been writing to a Sutta Man like yourself, I would have used khandhas or dhatus instead;-). …. >No he did not > teach > that. That is your interpretation. The Buddha never said (according to > any > record I know of) that -- "I want you to develop awareness and > understanding of > paramattha dhammas directly when they appear." If he had said that, I'd > be > agreeing with you 100%. Since he didn't say that, I'm not agreeing with > you > 100%. …. S: Fair enough, I do appreciate that the term itself is like raising a red flag for many. If I say that the Buddha taught us to develop understanding and awareness of the dhatus/ayatanas/khandhas directly when they appear, do you still take issue? I had already started my post by saying that ‘absolute reality (paramattha dhamma) refers to what truly arises and falls at this very moment as we speak. The words are not important, but seeing, hearing, like, dislike, feeling and so on are all examples.’ S22:23 Full Understanding “Bhikkhus, I will teach you things that should be fully understood…….. ….Form…..feeling…perception…volitional formations…consciousness…” Whether we refer to them as khandhas or paramattha dhammas should not cause any particular difficulties, should it? … > After the painstaking manner in which the dhamma was preserved > and recorded > by the Bhikkhus, and who ever else had a hand in preserving them...let's > > please not go putting words into the Buddha's mouth that he did not > state. … S: I’m sorry to have given any offence here. Now if those key disciples who preserved and recorded the dhamma referred to any teaching in accord with the Buddha’s word as being the Buddha’s word, is there really any issue here? For example, various commentaries and Abhidhamma texts were supposedly recited at the first councils, but all attributed to the Buddha himself directly or indirectly. I believe it is a showing of our respect for the Buddha that we point out that anything we say in accordance with his Teachings has not come about as a result of our own discovery. (I once raised this point with Krishnamurti, but that’s another story;-)). … > It is fine that you believe the intent of the Buddha was to teach us to: > > develop understanding and awareness of the paramattha dhammas directly > when they > appear. That's fine if that's what you believe. But it should be > stated in > that manner...i.e., that: -- "I believe" the intent of the Buddha was > to....etc., etc. That way the truth is "preserved." Because when you > say that the > Buddha taught us to "develop awareness of paramattha dhammas" etc. > That's, not a > true statement. It may or may not be a fact, but its not a true > statement. …. S: Ok. Please take it that all my statements start with a ‘I believe…’ As I said, if I’m writing to someone who is already in agreement with the use of terms as Suravira is, I’m more likely to take a few short-cuts, especially when I'm a little rushed like now. I did pause momentarily when I wrote the sentence as I knew it would not be acceptable to some like yourself, but I had a lot of points I wished to cover in the post. I’m glad you’ve picked it up for further discussion here. …. > Since the Buddha didn't even use the term "paramattha dhamma" (to my > knowledge), it is only your belief that was his intent or the way he > wanted Dhamma > understood. …. S: I don’t think I’m relying on my beliefs at all. When we read the commentaries like the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, it’s very clearly spelled out that paramattha dhamma refers to citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana. Period. …. > My feeing is that what the Buddha said, he said for a reason, and what > he > didn't say, he didn't say for a reason. The Buddha could have easily > catagorized > the Dhamma into paramattha dhammas if that was his intent. In my view, > it > was much harder to not catagorze the dhamma in that manner. And since > he didn't > didn't catagorize dhamma in that manner, it raises a "red flag" when > people > not only state that he meant to do it that way, but actually put the > words into > his mouth as "doing it that way." …. S: I think this has been addressed. I assure you I wasn’t intending to raise any red flags. …. > The Buddha did teach about elements, he did teach about aggregates, and > to > say he did would be fine. But he did not teach about paramattha > dhammas. The > latter is an interpretive view. …. S: So anytime the commentaries or any of us here refer to paramattha dhammas, please read elements or aggregates (adding nibbana if appropriate). I’ll certainly try to remember not to use the term if I’m addressing you, TG …. > I'd be interested in your comments because I think both you and I and > everyone in this group are interested in the truth and the most > effective way to go > about eliminating suffering. Different methods work better for > different > people and that's fine (even though I know mine is the best.) ;-) But > it would > lend credence to those who like the paramattha dhamma idea to > understand, that > teaching in that manner is at the stage of commentarial interpretation, > and > not the actual teaching of the Buddha. It would be wonderful if it > would be > treated as such. That doesn't make it less right or wrong, but it does > "preserve the truth." (Nice Sutta on Preserving the truth in Majjhima > Nikaya.) :-) …. TG, you’ve mentioned your great respect for the Vism and I know you’re familiar with other commentaries and the Abhidhamma. Are you saying that it is wrong to suggest these clarifications are the Buddha’s teaching? I think there’s more to address here. Pls do quote from the sutta too. Metta, Sarah ===== 40040 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:45am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Two or four stages of liberation ? Hi Joop, Like the Neases and Abbotts (Mrs) of the world I too am fallible. A silly way to introduce a post, but I'm just wanting to post a link which has probably been posted many times, and you've probably read the essay anyway. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/misc/response.html Well, after all that, it is "A Buddhist Response to Contemporary Dilemmas of Human Existence" by Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi. My quick review is that it was an excellent read, obviously written by a very sound scholar, and in no way a "pushing" of orthodoxy. It addresses your often alluded to (and accepted by me) need to synthesise the insights of the Buddha with the concepts of the 21st century into something relevant for today. Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: jwromeijn [mailto:jwromeijn@y...] Sent: Monday, 20 December 2004 10:28 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Two or four stages of liberation ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Joop, > > Since I did my searching in Majjhima Nikaya, and the one example Christine > cited was from the Digha Nikaya, and as far as I know those are supposed to > contain the oldest Suttas, I don't see the basis for the claim of that scholar you > were citing. > > What's important is not debating this issue, but to read the Suttas on a > regular basis. (So that we don't need scholars to tell us (rightly or wrongly) > what's in the Suttas.) > > TG Hallo TG Reading the Sutta's: I do, more and more, so you are right. I have in general no problems with scholars, many of their books did help me on my buddhistic path The reason I put my message about two or four stages was also to make the culture of this dsg a little bit less orthodix (see my message a week ago to Sarah) Metta Joop 40041 From: Philip Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Five cords of sensual pleasure - why not six? Hi TG, Larry and all > The Five Chords of sense pleasure are "external things" that we grasp after. > They are almost like unbilical chords or conduits that keep us attached to > things. The mind, perhaps is not included, because the grasping and attachment > we have for mental objects had its "source" from the "Five Chords." That is, > anything we can think about had to at some point been inculcated from the Five > Chords. Yes, I see what you mean. The five sense are where there is that contact with the external world. THe contact of eye-base, visual object, eye-consciousness is where the fire starts. (Fire sutta) Technically speaking, from what I understand, there is nothing inherent in objects that make them more or less likely to produce unwholesome processes. It is all in our accumulations, our latent tendencies. I think of the sutta about touching poion with one's hand - there would be no harm done if there was no wound on the hand, but there *is* a wound on the hand, inevitably, for worldlings. The wound might seal up a lot faster after contact as our wisdom increases, not allowing as much poison in, but there is a wound. So it is perfectly right in a practical way to talk of the five sense cords. Still, very interesting to keep realizing more and more deeply how quickly the mind leaps from visual information to proliferate, and how we can develop wise attention, ever so gradually. (Well, maybe that's not right - we develop panna. In any case, you know what I mean.) I think of this sutta passage that I posted a few weeks back when discussing guarding the sense doors with Howard and James: "On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at its signs and features. Since, if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil, unwholesome states of cosciousness and grief might invade him, he practises the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty." (from MN 27:15) So the guarding here comes *after* the seeing, but before the mind "grasps at...signs and features." (I assume that only the mind can do that.) It's as if the monkey touches the monkey trap, but is able to remove his hand before it gets stuck. Five cords leading to a "wise attention" point, from which two mental door cords emerge, carrying either kusala or akusala javana cittas. Whoa, freaky man! Never mind! :) > If we think about children learning, we don't just tell them to close there > eyes and think about things. No. They have to experience the through the Five > Chords to learn the things that latter they can think about. That makes the > Five Chords more fundamental as something that "ties us" to the world. Does > that make some sense? Yes, lots of sense. Thanks. Yesterday I was feeling quite disgusted with myself about my latest backslip related to the internet, and consuming too many suttas in a thoughtless way, and I read the sutta in which the Buddha talks about the lotuses: "Bhikkhus, just as a blue, red or white lotus is born in the water and grows up in the water, but having risen up above the wayter it stands unsullied, so too the Tathagata was born in the world and grew up in the world, but having overcome the world, he dwells unsullied in the world." (sorry, I don't have the sutta number at hand.) The sutta about the monkey trap seems a bit pessimistic about our ability to learn from our sensory experience about how to see, hear, taste, smell and touch in a more wholesome way. The above sutta about the lotuses left me feeling more encouraged. Just as people who I fell hostility about are my teachers, the sensual objects that I overindulge in can come to be my teachers. Thanks also, Larry. I have to admit that I was a bit lost by the talk of raga and kama since I haven't learned about them, but thanks for taking the time to think about my question and I am glad it was fruitful for you! Metta, Phil 40042 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lurking. Hi Mike, Oh no! Don't lurk!!! If you flag mails you want to answer you may not come to actually write. Nina. op 21-12-2004 02:43 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Given my inability to keep up with the flow of messages, I think I should > just lurk until I'm able to pay proper attention. 40043 From: nina Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:40am Subject: Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika Vis. 125. Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of being felt should be understood, all taken together, as the feeling aggregate' (par.81). And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of being felt is feeling itself, according as it is said, 'It is felt, friend, that is why it is called feeling' (M.i,293). **** N: What is said about the aggregate of consciousness(Vis. XIV, 81) should be applied as well to the aggregate of feeling. There are many kinds of feeling and they are classified in many ways, but here it is said that feelings, all taken together, are classified as one group or khandha. The Tiika states that it is said that it is felt, with reference to its mode of experiencing. Its nature should be characterized as being felt. First the passive is used: it is felt, in Pali: vedayita. What is felt is feeling. Then the Vis. refers to M.N. I, 43, which is a dialogue between Maha-Ko.t.thita and Saariputta. Saariputtaa explains: it feels, it feels, friend, that is why it is called feeling. In the text, after the passive, the active form (which the translator did not render) is used: it feels, it feels (vedayati vedayatiiti). It feels, but in Pali no article is used here. There is merely the declination of the verb, to feel, in the third person singular. There is no subject. Thus, feeling is what is felt and it can also be said that it feels. The Tiika states: The explanation of the action should be understood as follows: there is no doer apart from the dhamma with its own characteristic (Sabhaavadhammato a~n~no kattaa natthiiti dassanattha.m kattuniddeso). As to the word therefore (tasmaa), this gives the definition of feeling, according to the Tiika. It explains: feeling experiences the flavour of the object according as this is the condition (for the experience), therefore it is called feeling (yathaapaccaya.m aaramma.narasa.m anubhavati, tasmaa vedanaati vuccatiiti). N: Why is the passive form used first in the text? This will be clearer when we consider the different kinds of feeling: pleasant, unpleasant and indifferent feeling. For example, when pleasant feeling arises, its pleasantness is felt. The Commentary to the sutta, referred to above, explains about feelings, that a following pleasant feeling experiences as object the flavour of the preceding pleasant feeling, and the same for unpleasant feeling and neutral feeling. It states: These passages can remind us, that no matter how strong pleasant feeling and unpleasant feeling are, there is no person, no doer, that it is merely feeling that feels. Feeling is an element devoid of self that falls away immediately. This has to be often considered, because when feeling arises we are immediately overwhelmed. **** Nina. 40044 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Dear Tep, Thank you for your sympathetic mails. Because of circumstances, I had to delay answering your forelast mail. op 20-12-2004 21:00 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: -- It is useful to know those kinds of citta that are rooted in aversion and other akusala dhamma, so that we learn to avoid them. N: Avoiding is one of the right efforts. It is keen pañña that is the foremost condition for seeing the disadvantages of akusala. Pañña can realize its true characteristic as only a condiitoned dhamma. T: It is really interesting to know that dosa can arise groundlessly -- maybe like that in a mind of a terrorist? N: Also in all of us. A slight uneasiness can arise when we stumble in the house, or a slight pain. Or the wind outside is so cold. Or the button of my coat is missing. Now your last mail. T: Please comment and advise. ( Yes, I think of you as one of my > advisers. Well, even President Bush has several advisors.) N: Howard's aside made me laugh. Adviser, no, I have no ambitions for that. Better not. A dialogue, yes, because I like your straightforward approach. The Buddha said that the Dhamma is his successor. The Dhamma helps us to develop our own understanding. There is no need to follow a teacher. Who knows whether this or that person is right? We have to be our own refuge and this attracted me to Buddhism from the beginning. I like to study the texts of the Tipitaka and I also need help from the Commentaries because we are further removed form the Buddha's time. Often the Suttas are very compact and by myself I do not get the deep meaning that is implied. I like to share what I learn as far as I am able to and that is all. T: You stated, "But, whatever happens does so because of conditions. > We cannot plan, whatever happens happens anyway".... > What's wrong with planning, and what's wrong with goal setting in our > practice of the Dhamma? N: Yes, we can plan as far as conditions allow. Just as Lodewijk and I planned my father's birthday party. We needed a roadmap to go by. T: I think as long as we do not cling (because of > craving) to a plan that we have set with a clear goal, and as long as we > are flexible and simply use them for periodic checking of the progress > for errors correction puposes, then we should be doing fine. N: It is good you know that we should not cling to our plan. And a goal, yes. We may have different goals. Maybe you and I should say what our goal is. I can only talk about my own goal: to develop more understanding so that I learn: all that I read in the text concerns my life at this very moment. This will help me to have more detachment from whatever is experienced through the six doors. As to checking of the progress for errors correction puposes, there is something in it. Knowing that my latent tendencies are strong, correction of errors is not easy. First of all I have to know exactly when there are errors. Thinking of progress: is there not an error to begin with? As for me, when I think: how much progress do I make, it conditions clinging and also aversion. And a lot of other kinds of akusala. I think of my poor progress, and then there is also conceit, clinging to the importance of me, me. I am important, I have to do better. Such thoughts, you know. T: One example, my plan for the next 6 months is to do two one-hour sitting- > meditation sessions every day, with the goal to try with much greater effort to abandon all hindrances during any meditation session. If I do not succeed, I'll try again and again. N: From what you write I think that you intend to temporarily suppress the hindrances through samatha. The goal and method of samatha is different from vipassana which is the development of understanding of whatever dhamma appears through the six doors. I find it very useful to talk first about samatha. A specific meditation subject is necessary so that the hindrances can be subdued. We read and hear a lot about the hindrances. I have an idea. Let us know the ennemy before attacking! It is useful to discuss the hindrances one by one. How do they manifest in your daily life? It is best to begin at this moment to learn more about the hindrances. In this way you can incorporate your meditation in daily life. I learnt that not only in vipassana but also in samatha sati sampajañña are needed. This means: sati and pañña, but these do not concern theory at all. Strong mindfulness and understanding are necessary also for samatha. One has to be very sure when a hindrance arises and what its characteristic is. I would suggest to talk about one hindrance at a time. This is also better for me, and I cannot always answer mails immediately, other urgent work is waiting. Nina. 40045 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:37am Subject: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau Hi Sarah, Thanks for this message. Like all your messages, it was a source of illumination. --------------- <. . .> S > Could even the Buddha prevent others like Devadatta from following serious wrong views <. . .> asking K.Sujin about ways to help family members and her response was just to share and help those who were interested without any concern about whether they were particular family or friends (whom of course we are so attached to). <. . .> we can only share our understanding with those who wish to hear it ------------------- These were more than a matter of, "Yes, true, but I already knew that." :-) They allowed me to understand a little deeper. You then quoted the Salla Sutta, which I appreciated, of course, but it also gave me the chance for some nit picking: ------------ "10. The man who grieves gains nothing. He is doing no more than a foolish man who is trying to hurt himself. If a wise man does it, it is the same for him." ------------ That last sentence, the way I read it, is inconsistent with the Dhamma's momentary view of reality. Wisdom and dosa don't arise together. Two other translations found at ATI are better, I think. John D. Ireland's version is, "If any benefit is gained by lamenting, the wise would do it." No other complaints, though.:-) Thanks again for the pep talk. Ken H 40046 From: Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:10am Subject: Poetry, Negations, and Dukkha Hi, all - The more I meditate and contemplate and attempt to formulate, the more persuaded I am that only a couple modes of speech come even remotely close to adequately pointing to the way things are. These modes are 1) poetic, making use of such figures of speech as metaphor, simile, and allusions of various sorts, and 2) negative assertions, with the 2nd being primary. It seems to me that many of our positive assertions are, in the final analysis, false. Some of the most critical assertions of the Dhamma are negative. For example, "All conditioned dhammas are impermanent" does not say that conditioned dhammas change. It says that they do not remain - no conditioned dhamma remains. What, for that matter, can change even mean? Time is truly illusion. There is "now" ... period. There *are* no past moments, hence no past events, conditions, or phenomena. There is no future. It is not that "things were, but no longer are". What can "Things were" even mean, when there is only now. I tend - I would like to say "we", but Azita properly cautioned me against this - to picture "the unfolding of events" as looking through a window called "now", with a stream of images moving leftwards from an unseen future on the right, passing by the window, and continuing leftward into an unseen past on the left. But that is a misleading simile. The problem is that the only time there is is that "now" window. There is no future "on the right" and no past "on the left". There is comfort in the picture of the past on the left, because it seems that in a way the past remains. But that is false. "Once gone, as if never having been" is closer to reality, as I now see it. And when one looks at this from the perspective of a "later point" in one's life, thinking in terms of life events and in terms of people who "used to be", the sense of irremediable loss becomes powerful. Or so it increasingly seems to me. Dukkha, dukkha, dukkha said the Conquerer. He taught only dukkha and the end of dukkha. May that end be soon with us. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40047 From: Philip Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi Nina > I am an adviser? ;-);-) Yup! I think that's safe to say. Good friends give advice. BTW, I am studying to become an adviser as well. I will take the Aromatherapy Adviser test offered by the Japan Aromotherapy Association so I may become a semi-professional "smell thief" like in that sutta you quote in ADL!!! More lobha on the way. Yipee! > > I would not use use the word formal meditation, but meditation. Did you > forget the meditations for every occasion for monks and laypeople? The > Buddha's excellent qualities, metta, foulness of the body, death. You do not > have to plan anything, let it come by conditions. Yes, but let's be honest - planning goes on. For me at least. Especially with a two-week holiday coming up. THe accumulations that lead me to wonder what I'll do with the holiday are hard to overcome. But thank you for reminding me of a wiser way. >Even amidst the bustle of > people sitting down for our concert at my father's house, having in between > conceit and nervous suspense about the coming performance. But we can > gradually learn when lobha comes up. Or clinging to the idea of self. It is > difficult because we are easily misled. It is also difficult because I get agitated, and agitation is uncomfortable. The desire arises to do something about the agitation. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes to MN 19 he writes: "Excessive thinking and pondering leads to agitation. To tame and soften the mind, the Bodhisatta would enter a meditative attainment, then he would emerge from it and develop insight." I am not about to sit down and have "meditative attainments", but this "tame and soften the mind" is appealing, of course. There are simple exercises offered at Buddhanet that I may try. I say formal meditation, because they involve following a technique. We will see if it is helpful. Only one way to find out. I have read your letter to Tep about hindrances, and I will (hopefully) read it again and think of the hindrances. I'm restless these days. I knew this would result from getting my hands on the sutta anthologies. I was right. But putting the books away is not an option. Even if there is agitation and greed involved in my reading of suttas, they are so beautiful and inspiring and I find especially with soome parts of SN so soothing by their repetitive insistence on stripping away clinging to the khandas. I would be wise to stick with SN on the aggregates, but I jump around like a restless flea on a very plump and tasty dog. A wise flea settles in at one nice vein and drinks until he's well- nourished. But I am a restless flea and can't stay long enough at one vein. (I don't even know if fleas drink blood. Never mind.) Patience, I tell myself, patience. This thinking is a reality that I can be aware of here and now, and when there is awareness of one reality through one door, Phil and his stories are revealed again for what they are - concepts, not realities. Metta, Phil > Thus, whatever you and others like to do, that is fine, or call it formal > meditation. But find out whether and when lobha is motivating your actions. > And I think that clinging to result is contra productive. But check, check > for yourself. I know you do this already. > Listening to the Dhamma is good, considering is good, no matter on a cushion > or not, gratefulness to the Buddha is good. Direct awareness cannot be > forced, we know that. But, whatever happens does so because of conditions. > We cannot plan, whatever happens happens anyway. > Nina. 40048 From: jonoabb Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:18am Subject: [dsg] Re: AN III - 100 mental misconduct vs. thoughts of ill-will Hi, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "plnao" wrote: ... I've let this one sit for awhile, Jon. I like your pace of exchanging messages. Nice and easy - no need to rush. My views on the topics to follow are still so formative that ....well, it helps to write them out now and then even though they are formative. Jon: Kind of you to say so, Phil. Others have been less charitable about the pace of my replies (not anyone presently posting, I hasten to add)! Actually, I am in the middle of changing computers, OSs, and mail programs all at once, so have bits and pieces of things everywhere, and this has slowed me down even more than usual. Phil: You know, at my level of insight, it's really only rote learning to say "panna" controls the citta, but even at the level of rote learning (or "parroting" as people insist on saying - I think this term is disrespectful to Dhamma, because rote is part and parcel of bhavana in Asia, at least) it is helpful. ... Jon: In my view it's quite acceptable to re-state in one's own words things that we've come to understand at an intellectual level. I do not consider this to be parrotting or even rote learning, so nothing to be the least bit apologetic about. Those of us who see the value in the texts appreciate such reminders from the texts. So please continue! Phil: ... I have come to agree. The right effort language gave me pause, with its exertion and striving and what not. But there is not reason that we cannot be compelled to act in a seemingly intentional way by conditions. ... Jon: I think that's exactly right. We act in a seemingly intentional (controlled) way, and of course there is such a thing as intention, but it doesn't work the way we generally take it to work. It is a momentary, conditioned phenomenon like everything else. Phil: ... Well, he certainly did give some very harsh warnings about the danger of akusala, of the "If I were to die tonight" variety that warn of unfavourable rebirth. And he did use language that he surely knew would be interpreted as being prescriptive. And he is compared to a doctor at times, a doctor prescribing medicine. So the prescriptive aspect is there, defintely. ... Jon: Yes, there are many warnings given by the Buddha about the dangers of akusala, and many admonitions about the benefits of kusala. But the 'prescriptive' aspect is mainly assumed by the reader, I believe. This can always be tested by looking at specific passages. Phil: ... Yes, but when we get to the second right effort, the language sounds much more forceful - "destroys them, dispels them" etc. Jon: I think perhaps you mean 'active' rather than prescriptive here (it is the distinction between these 2 terms that I was alluding to at the end of my last post). I see this as a separate though related issue. It's precisely because we read the teaching as a 'thing to do/be done' that we tend to regard the Buddha's admonitions as being prescriptive. Here is the wording of the second padhaana: > (2) "What now is the effort to overcome? The monk does not retain any > thought of sensual lust, or any other evil, unwholesome states that may > have arisen; he abandons them, dispels them, destroys them, causes them to > disappear. This is called the effort to overcome. I think you'll agree that this is not prescriptive in the normal sense of the word. As to whether is describes 'something to be done', we sometimes overlook the fact that everything the Buddha taught must be understood as kusala of 1 kind or another, and not for example techniques for dealing with akusala. So here, if the kusala that is right effort arises, it will have the effect of abandoning, dispelling etc the already arise unwholesome mental state (not, if you 'try' to abandon etc unwholesome states this will be kusala). Phil: ... Thanks Jon. As you can see, I am more comfortable with a non-prescriptive interpretation of this. I think that wee-hours session with Bhikkhu Dhammadharo was very good for me. I felt fear, the unwillingness to let go of control. But that seemed to be a condition for being able to let go a bit more. A gradual process. Jon: Yes, fear is just another conditioned response. Nothing to be feared at all ;-)) Jon 40049 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:33am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,125 Dear Larry, Thanks for your extensive explanation on 'Visuddhimagga'. It is so clear that no further questions are required. As you said, 'purification' has the meaning of processing and 'purity' has the meaning of 'already clean'. If already clean, there is no need for processing. Visuddhi by its name is 'already clean'. I think at each stage, each is clean. Visuddhimagga may be 1. path of purification 2. path of purity 3. purifying path 4. purity-path 5. clean path 6. cleansing path 7. cleansed path I do not think 'words' are important when essence is understood. But when essence cannot be grasped, then there are many possibilities that deviation of idea might arise. For me, I would use 'visuddhimagga'. Vi-sud-dhi-mag-ga, these 5 syllables are not making a big word like.. Counterdecentralization, which has coun-ter-de-cen-tra-li-za-tion of 8 syllables. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Htoo: "Which one do you prefer from 2 alternatives of translation of the > meaning of 'Visuddhimagga'; 'path of purity' and 'path of > purification'?" > > Hi Htoo, > > I prefer "purification" over "purity" because purification is a process > while purity is a state or accomplishment. However, each of the seven > stages of purification could be said to be an accomplishment. > > As you know, the idea of dividing the path into 7 stages comes from the > Rathavinita Sutta, MN 24 > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn024.html There it > is said that one accomplishes each stage in turn before going on to the > next. It is also said one abandons each stage before going on to the > next. > > Ven. Matara Sri ~Nanarama writes, > > "In the case of the seven purifications, .. snip..then he can > develop the five purifications that are the 'trunk'. This is in > brief.The detail is as follows. > > L: This is where we are now in chapter XIV, "learning and questioning > about those things that are the 'soil' ", the aggregates, bases, etc., > preparatory to *studying* the purification of view. > > What are your ideas on the best way to translate "Visuddhimagga"? > > Larry 40050 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:18am Subject: Re: Meditation Dear Howard, Although my thought about President Bush's advisors and their advising is not along the same line as yours, I also found it amusing how those advisors try to convince a strong leader who is fond of unilateral decision making (and at times, being pretty stubborn). Thank you for replying. Regards, Tep ===== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 12/20/04 7:09:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepyawa@m... > writes: > > > Hi, Howard - > > > > > > > >>Well, even President Bush has several advisors. > > >> > > > Uh, oh! ;-)) > > > > > > > > > May I ask how you understand that sentence? What do you think it > > really means? ;-(| > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Tep > > > > > ======================== > I was just fooling around, Tep. :-) > I wasn't adopting any particular position with regard to the virtues > or deficits of the President, his policies, or his advisers. It is simply that > the U.S. populace is rather strongly split when it comes to this President, > with few opinions falling in the middle of the extremes of slavish approval and > livid hatred. So, for those with opposite perspectives, any association of an > "adviser" with Bush's advisers would induce quite opposite responses! ;-) I > found that fact amusing. That's all. It was just a "throw-away line" on my part, > and nothing of any import at all. > > With metta, > Howard > 40051 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:23am Subject: Dhamma Thread (193) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are different classification systems on citta. A. Vedana classification (62 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 55 = 121) B. Hetu classification ( 18 + 2 + 22 + 47 = 89) C. Jati classification ..a) (12 + 21 + 36 + 20 = 89) ..b) (12 + 37 + 52 + 20 = 121) D. Bhumi classification ..a) (54 + 15 + 12 + 8 = 89) ..b) (54 + 15 + 12 + 40 = 121) E. Kicca classification( 1.19,2.19,3.2,4.2,5.2,6.2,7.2,8.2,9.2, 10.3,11.1,12.55,13.11,14.19) (19+19+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+1+55+11+19= 141 - overlapping 52 = 89) F. Multifunctional classification (1.2,2.8,3.9,4.2,5.68) 2+8+9+2+68= 89 G. Dvara classification (1.46,2.46,3.46,4.46,5.46,6.67 ) and many others. G. Dvara classification on citta 1. 46 cakkhu-dvarika cittas 2. 46 sota-dvarika cittas 3. 46 ghana-dvarika cittas 4. 46 jivha-dvarika cittas 5. 46 kaya-dvarika cittas 6. 67 mano-dvarika cittas Dvarika means 'at door'. There are 46 cittas that arise at eye-sense- door or at cakkhu dvara. These 46 cittas are 1. 1 pancadvaravajjana citta 2. 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas (akusala and kusala vipaka) 3. 2 sampaticchana cittas (akusala and kusala vipaka) 4. 3 santirana cittas (2 upekkha and 1 somanassa) 5. 1 votthapana citta ( which is manodvaravajjana citta) 6.29 kama-javana cittas( 12 akusala, 1 hasituppada, 8 mahakusala, 8 mahakiriya cittas) 7. 8 tadarammana cittas ( 8 mahavipaka cittas) ------- 46 cittas All these 46 cittas can arise at cakkhu dvara or eye-sense-door. In sotadvara 2 sotavinnana cittas replace cakkhuvinnana cittas and so do 2 ghanavinnana, 2 jivhavinnana, 2 kayavinnana. All other cittas are characterwise the same as in cakkhudvara vithi cittas. So there are 46 + 2 sotavinnana + 2 ghanavinnana + 2 jivhavinnana + 2 kayavinnana altogether 54 cittas can arise at 5-sense-doors. When these 54 cittas are analysed, they are all kamavacara cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40052 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Htoo, Thank you for your answer. I think everything cannot be clear, because the subject of tadaarammana citta is very intricate. About the feelings, that is clear. For me it is difficult to understand that when the object is unpleasant, the tadaaramanacittas are, in the case of humans, not akusala vipaakacittas, but kusala vipaakacittas, since they are mostly produced by the kusala kamma that produced rebirth-consciousness. But there are questions that we cannot solve. Nina. 40053 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: radio A. Sujin Dear Alan, I have some info that may interest you. You can listen to Acharn Sujin's excellent radio programs in Thai. Early morning and also in the evening. at 5.30, F.M. 31, athid until phryhad. At 6.00: AM 675, every day, thug wan. 19.30 AM 1422. (can to saw). 21.00, AM 675. The kosana is sometimes a bit long, but keep at it. All the medicines when you have a cold. I did not give you all the programs, there are more. Next to the station there are other stations that disturb, but you keep turning the knob (mun, mun) to adjust the sound. There is also a possibility to listen life to the weekend Thai discussions. Let me know how you fare, chok di, Nina. op 21-12-2004 09:53 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: to Alan > I used to hear from him about his Aunt's Dharma activites and another >> E-Sangha member that visit the centre once or twice a year to discuss >> dharma activities. But no, I did not and have not visit to the centre as >> yet. I do presumed I will do so most probably after this year then. > … > S: Sukin has given you his phone number and you might like to go along > with him. You’ll be most welcome. We’ll also put a message on the list > when we’re able to visit next from Hong Kong. I’m glad Chris re-introduced > herself to you here as well;-). 40054 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:38am Subject: Dhamma Thread (194) Dear Dhamma Friends, G. Dvara classification on citta 1. 46 cakkhu-dvarika cittas 2. 46 sota-dvarika cittas 3. 46 ghana-dvarika cittas 4. 46 jivha-dvarika cittas 5. 46 kaya-dvarika cittas 6. 67 mano-dvarika cittas 7. 19 dvara-vimutta cittas ( or 19 advarika cittas ) At cakkhu dvara there arise 46 cittas. So do other dvarika cittas at their specific dvara or door. At 5 dvara or 5 sense doors, altogether there are 54 cittas that can arise. All these 54 cittas are kamavacara cittas. At manodvara there can arise 67 cittas. They are 1. 1 manodvaravajjana citta 2.55 javana cittas ( 29 kama javana and 26 mahaggata javana ) 3.11 tadarammana cittas ( 3 santirana and 8 mahavipaka ) ----- 67 cittas 29 kama javana cittas are :12 akusala of 8 lobha, 2 dosa, and 2 moha ; 1 hasituppada citta ; 8 mahakusala ; 8 mahakiriya (12+1+8+8=29). 26 mahaggata javana cittas are : 5 rupakusala ; 5 rupakiriya ; 4 arupakusala ; 4 arupakiriya ; 4 magga ; 4 phala (5+5+4+4+4+4=26) 19 cittas which may be patisandhi cittas or bhavanga cittas or cuti cittas do not arise at any of 6 sense doors. They arise on their own accord and they are called dvara-vimutta cittas or door-free consciousness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40055 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:05am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Nina, Thanks for your reply. Yes. Tadarammana kicca and cittas are intricate matters. If the object is anittharammana or unpleasant object, which is a rupa, the first vithi citta that arises is .. pancadvaravajjana citta. This is a kiriya citta. This is abyakata dhamma. This dhamma can follow akusala vipaka bhavanga citta, which is definitely the patisandhi citta of beings in 4 apaya bhmuis namely niriya or hell, tiracchanna or animal, peta or hungry ghost, asurakaya or demon. Equally this abyakata dhamma can follow kusala vipaka bhavanga citta, which is bhavanga cittas of beings in kama sugati bhumis. Foregoing citta is vipaka citta. Whatever it is the result of akusala or kusala, it is still vipaka. This vipaka bhavanga citta is abyakata dhamma. It is followed by pancadvaravajjana citta which is another abyakata dhamma. As the object is unpleasant, definitely the next arising vinnana citta is akusala vipaka citta. Still this is is vipaka citta and it is abyakata dhamma. Sampaticchana, santirana will both be akusala vipaka cittas. Still they both are vipaka cittas and they are abyakata dhamma. So it is in line with 'anantara paccaya'. Next arises manodvaravajjana citta as votthapana citta. This is kiriya citta. It is abyakata dhamma. So the last bhavanga is abyakata, pancadvaravajjana is abyakata, pancavinnana is abyakata, sampaticchana and santirana are abyakata, and votthapana citta is also abyakata dhamma. Just before javana cittas are abyakata dhamma. So votthapana citta can be followed by akusala dhamma, kusala dhamma, and abyakata dhamma. This is in line with 'anantara paccaya'. Whatever unpleasant the objects are javana cittas of arahats are always kiriya cittas and they are abyakata dhamma. For others, as their perceptions are different, they may like it (lobha-which is inappropriate..see vultures and rotten flesh), they may disgust it (dosa), they may be indifferent (moha), they may just perceive as it is (mahakusala). While bhavanga flow is colourless and also from 1st vithi citta to 5th vithi citta is also colourless, next following 7 javana cittas may be colourless in case of arahats and may be colourful in case of non-arahats. In case of colouring cittas, there are different colours. If kiriya cittas we do not need further explanation. If it is dosa cittas, then this is akusala dhamma. But this akusala cann be followed by vipaka which are abyakata dhamma. This is also in line with 'anantara paccaya'. In case of human, patisandhis are upekkha or somanassa. So tadarammana can be upekkha or somanassa. But when 7th domanassa javana citta is domanassa, it cannot be followed by somanassa tadarammana cittas. There are 6 upekkha tadarammana cittas and 5 somanassa tadarammana cittas. All 11 cittas are vipaka cittas. So it is possible that any one 11 can follow 7th domanassa javana. But vedana-wise somanassa cannot follow, I think. It has to be upekkha tadarammana and then followed by somanassa bhavanga cittas. As it is a human, if upekkha tadarammana has to arise, it would be 4 upekkha mahavipaka or 1 upekkha kusala santirana citta. How complicated! But they are interesting. With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > Thank you for your answer. I think everything cannot be clear, because the > subject of tadaarammana citta is very intricate. About the feelings, that is > clear. For me it is difficult to understand that when the object is > unpleasant, the tadaaramanacittas are, in the case of humans, not akusala > vipaakacittas, but kusala vipaakacittas, since they are mostly produced by > the kusala kamma that produced rebirth-consciousness. > But there are questions that we cannot solve. > Nina. 40056 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:23am Subject: [dsg] Is there seeing now? Re: kusala and akusala. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi James, > > You made some good comments here: You'll be rightly telling me I've veering off-track. > > Thanks for your feedback. > > Metta, > > Sarah Friend Sarah (and Nina), Thanks for this response. Frankly, I'm not quite sure if you are agreeing with me or not. Actually, I'm not quite sure the point you are making. My point is that "Is there seeing now?" is not a very important issue. Think about it this way: Did the Buddha see things any differently from the unenlightened? What I mean is: were his physical eyes any different, basically, from anyone else's. Did he have x-ray vision or could he see ultraviolet light? I think that the answer to this question is: no, the Buddha's physical eyes were no more extraordinary than the average human's. The thing that was extraordinary about the Buddha was his mind, not his eyes…or his ears, nose, mouth, tongue, or body. So, when you write, "This is why seeing and visible object and the other sense experiences and objects have to be known for what they are", do you actually mean "seeing" with the physical eye, or "seeing" with the mind? If you mean "seeing" with the mind, which I hope you do, then the act of physically seeing with the eyes should not be given a place of priority. In other words, the mind can be developed (tamed) with the eyes closed, contrary to what Nina wrote in this thread earlier. Metta, James 40057 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:19pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (193) Dear Friend Htoo, I would like to share something with you of a personal nature. This is not a spur of the moment thing, but has been brewing for quite some time. When I read your posts, often I have very unpleasant memories and a slight nausea arises. I am brought back to my school days. I was brought up in a very strict, very fundamentalist, ultra-conservative Dutch Christian sect. I was sent to a very strict, very fundamentalist, ultra-conservative school. The teaching method was rote learning under the threat of violence or abuse. This method covered all subjects. For example, each student had to learn a section of the Bible to recite from memory in front of the master every Monday morning. Depending on how poor your performance was, you were either hit, shaken about or verbally abused. If you were word perfect you were praised. Each Monday morning the nausea would rise up as you witnessed the abuse before your name was called out. Sometimes around town I see little advertising pictures or letters written in a particular way which also remind me of my maths, writing and reading classes. The teaching there was much the same, and I get a sick feeling in my stomach when I am reminded. It is quite a scary thought for me that the task of teaching children how to think and what to think is often in the hands of very ignorant people. This includes parents whose major skill in life is making babies, and who rear their offspring by simply repeating what was done to themselves. Without an understanding of the past, we are bound to repeat it. And that's the way it goes, on and on and on.... Sorry if this is a strange post. (please do not think that any of this is about you, I was regurgitating the conditions under which I learnt to think) Kind Regards Herman I was a good student. Of course, I can take no credit for that. The ability to learn is beyond control. -----Original Message----- From: htootintnaing [mailto:htootintnaing@y...] Sent: Wednesday, 22 December 2004 2:23 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (193) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are different classification systems on citta. A. Vedana classification (62 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 55 = 121) B. Hetu classification ( 18 + 2 + 22 + 47 = 89) C. Jati classification ..a) (12 + 21 + 36 + 20 = 89) ..b) (12 + 37 + 52 + 20 = 121) D. Bhumi classification ..a) (54 + 15 + 12 + 8 = 89) ..b) (54 + 15 + 12 + 40 = 121) E. Kicca classification( 1.19,2.19,3.2,4.2,5.2,6.2,7.2,8.2,9.2, 10.3,11.1,12.55,13.11,14.19) (19+19+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+1+55+11+19= 141 - overlapping 52 = 89) F. Multifunctional classification (1.2,2.8,3.9,4.2,5.68) 2+8+9+2+68= 89 G. Dvara classification (1.46,2.46,3.46,4.46,5.46,6.67 ) and many others. G. Dvara classification on citta 1. 46 cakkhu-dvarika cittas 2. 46 sota-dvarika cittas 3. 46 ghana-dvarika cittas 4. 46 jivha-dvarika cittas 5. 46 kaya-dvarika cittas 6. 67 mano-dvarika cittas Dvarika means 'at door'. There are 46 cittas that arise at eye-sense- door or at cakkhu dvara. These 46 cittas are 1. 1 pancadvaravajjana citta 2. 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas (akusala and kusala vipaka) 3. 2 sampaticchana cittas (akusala and kusala vipaka) 4. 3 santirana cittas (2 upekkha and 1 somanassa) 5. 1 votthapana citta ( which is manodvaravajjana citta) 6.29 kama-javana cittas( 12 akusala, 1 hasituppada, 8 mahakusala, 8 mahakiriya cittas) 7. 8 tadarammana cittas ( 8 mahavipaka cittas) ------- 46 cittas All these 46 cittas can arise at cakkhu dvara or eye-sense-door. In sotadvara 2 sotavinnana cittas replace cakkhuvinnana cittas and so do 2 ghanavinnana, 2 jivhavinnana, 2 kayavinnana. All other cittas are characterwise the same as in cakkhudvara vithi cittas. So there are 46 + 2 sotavinnana + 2 ghanavinnana + 2 jivhavinnana + 2 kayavinnana altogether 54 cittas can arise at 5-sense-doors. When these 54 cittas are analysed, they are all kamavacara cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40058 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Poetry, Negations, and Dukkha Hi Howard, I like this post very much. The history of illusion spans infinity in all directions. And as you say, yet there is only now; which when not seen in terms of pasts that never were or futures that never will be, is just ....... Poetry sounds the go!! The suttas are full of it. Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] Sent: Wednesday, 22 December 2004 1:10 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Poetry, Negations, and Dukkha Hi, all - The more I meditate and contemplate and attempt to formulate, the more persuaded I am that only a couple modes of speech come even remotely close to adequately poynting to the way things are. These modes are 1) poetic, making use of such figures of speech as metaphor, simile, and allusions of various sorts, and 2) negative assertions, with the 2nd being primary. It seems to me that many of our positive assertions are, in the final analysis, false. Some of the most critical assertions of the Dhamma are negative. For example, "All conditioned dhammas are impermanent" does not say that conditioned dhammas change. It says that they do not remain - no conditioned dhamma remains. What, for that matter, can change even mean? Time is truly illusion. There is "now" ... period. There *are* no past moments, hence no past events, conditions, or phenomena. There is no future. It is not that "things were, but no longer are". What can "Things were" even mean, when there is only now. I tend - I would like to say "we", but Azita properly cautioned me against this - to picture "the unfolding of events" as looking through a window called "now", with a stream of images moving leftwards from an unseen future on the right, passing by the window, and continuing leftward into an unseen past on the left. But that is a misleading simile. The problem is that the only time there is is that "now" window. There is no future "on the right" and no past "on the left". There is comfort in the picture of the past on the left, because it seems that in a way the past remains. But that is false. "Once gone, as if never having been" is closer to reality, as I now see it. And when one looks at this from the perspective of a "later point" in one's life, thinking in terms of life events and in terms of people who "used to be", the sense of irremediable loss becomes powerful. Or so it increasingly seems to me. Dukkha, dukkha, dukkha said the Conquerer. He taught only dukkha and the end of dukkha. May that end be soon with us. With metta, Howard 40059 From: Philip Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Re: Five cords of sensual pleasure - why not six? Hi TG, Larry and all > TG The Five Chords of sense pleasure are "external things" that we > grasp after. > > They are almost like unbilical chords or conduits that keep us > attached to > > things. The mind, perhaps is not included, because the grasping > and attachment > > we have for mental objects had its "source" from the "Five > Chords." That is, > > anything we can think about had to at some point been inculcated > from the Five > > Chords. An afternote to this. This morning I found a sutta in which the Buddha does indeed refer to *six* senses as six hooks that Mara dangles for us and that we get caught on. ("The Fisherman simile" SN 35.230) In it "mental phenomena congnizable by the mind" are included amoung the six objects that are "desirable, lovely, agreeable, pleasing, sensually enticing etc.." Another reminder that the Buddha in his great versatility taught to different people in different ways. Perhaps the monkey trap simile and other suttas that talk of five sense cords rather than six was of more immediate help for "a bhikkhu in the initial stages of training" as Bhikkhu Bodhi puts it in his notes about restraint in the introduction to the Salayatanavagga. (p.1127 of SN anthology) Interesting stuff, but no need for me to keep thinking about it! :) Also, this thread made me realize that I don't understand "feeling" yet in the Dhamma sense. When "sensual pleasure" is used, is it referring to mental pleasure as well as body pleasure? This is a rhetorical question - no need to answer it. It is my homework! Back to the vedaana chapter in cetasikas, and on to the vedanaasamyutta. Metta, Phil 40060 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:04pm Subject: Re: Meditation Dear Nina, I appreciate your detailed reponse to my mail; the reply provides very clear and useful information. N: [ giving examples of how dosa can arise groundlessly] A slight uneasiness can arise when we stumble in the house, or a slight pain. Or the wind outside is so cold. Or the button of my coat is missing. T: These examples of dosa are subtle aversion and, I think, we have to be mindfully aware of them in order to really see them with wisdom. It may take incredibly long time before we can be free from this kind of defilement for good. Is it true that one has to become Anagami in order to eradicate dosa? N: Adviser, no, I have no ambitions for that. Better not. A dialogue, yes, because I like your straightforward approach. ...The Dhamma helps us to develop our own understanding. There is no need to follow a teacher. Who knows whether this or that person is right? T: Fine, Nina, you have explained your position clearly and firmly. So we'll go by dialogue based on the Buddha's Dhamma as our refuge. Thank you for accepting my "straightforward" style of asking questions (that style, sometimes, is annoying to others). Talking about 'Dhamma as the refuge', here is my favorite quote from DN 16: "When he dwells contemplating the body in the body, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world; when he dwells contemplating feelings in feelings, the mind in the mind, and mental objects in mental objects, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island unto himself, a refuge unto himself, seeking no external refuge; having the Dhamma as his island, the Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge". "Those bhikkhus of mine, Ananda, who now or after I am gone, abide as an island unto themselves, as a refuge unto themselves, seeking no other refuge; having the Dhamma as their island and refuge, seeking no other refuge: it is they who will become the highest, if they have the desire to learn." N: I can only talk about my own goal: to develop more understanding so that I learn: all that I read in the text concerns my life at this very moment. This will help me to have more detachment from whatever is experienced through the six doors. T: I am so glad to tell you that your goal is also my goal. Precisely, I want to develop strong sati and sampajanna in every moment to "help me to have more detachment from whatever is experienced through the six doors", like you have said. I think MN 149 [Maha-salayatanika Sutta] explains how we can achieve such a goal. N: As to checking of the progress for errors correction puposes, there is something in it. Knowing that my latent tendencies are strong, correction of errors is not easy. First of all I have to know exactly when there are errors. T: I can see your point! Yes, when there is a strong anusaya, especially the ignorance latent tendency, it is difficult to know fine errors. We need a capable teacher to help us discover fine errors, I guess. Otherwise, can we start developing concentration (samadhi) first, and when it is strong enough, use it as the basis to develop wisdom as stated in the suttas? N: As for me, when I think: how much progress do I make, it conditions clinging and also aversion. And a lot of other kinds of akusala. I think of my poor progress, and then there is also conceit, clinging to the importance of me, me. I am important, I have to do better. T: Good points, Nina. But those akusala thoughts, being the kind of gross errors that we can readily see, should tend toward diminution as our wisdom develops (through training in the Dhamma) and we become more and more effective in the error identification and correction, using the suttas and/or a teacher as guidance. N: I have an idea. Let us know the ennemy before attacking! It is useful to discuss the hindrances one by one. How do they manifest in your daily life? It is best to begin at this moment to learn more about the hindrances. ... I would suggest to talk about one hindrance at a time. This is also better for me, and I cannot always answer mails immediately, other urgent work is waiting. T: It is a great idea, Nina, to talk about one thing at a time. As to answering my mail, please do it whenever it is convenient to you. Out of the five hindrances, the last three are what I have trouble with most of the time. And they quite often "manifest" themselves in any situation. During a meditation (samatha or vipassana) they often arise closely together. How about starting with skeptical doubt (vicikiccha)? Kindest regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > Thank you for your sympathetic mails. Because of circumstances, I had to > delay answering your forelast mail. > op 20-12-2004 21:00 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > -- It is useful to know those kinds of citta that are rooted in aversion and > other akusala dhamma, so that we learn to avoid them. > N: Avoiding is one of the right efforts. It is keen pañña that is the > foremost condition for seeing the disadvantages of akusala. Pañña can > realize its true characteristic as only a condiitoned dhamma. > T: It is really interesting to know that dosa can arise groundlessly -- > maybe like that in a mind of a terrorist? > N: Also in all of us. A slight uneasiness can arise when we stumble in the > house, or a slight pain. Or the wind outside is so cold. Or the button of my > coat is missing. > > Now your last mail. > T: Please comment and advise. ( Yes, I think of you as one of my > > advisers. Well, even President Bush has several advisors.) > N: Howard's aside made me laugh. Adviser, no, I have no ambitions for that. > Better not. > A dialogue, yes, because I like your straightforward approach. > The Buddha said that the Dhamma is his successor. The Dhamma helps us to > develop our own understanding. There is no need to follow a teacher. Who > knows whether this or that person is right? We have to be our own refuge and > this attracted me to Buddhism from the beginning. > I like to study the texts of the Tipitaka and I also need help from the > Commentaries because we are further removed form the Buddha's time. Often > the Suttas are very compact and by myself I do not get the deep meaning that > is implied. I like to share what I learn as far as I am able to and that is > all. > > T: You stated, "But, whatever happens does so because of conditions. > > We cannot plan, whatever happens happens anyway".... > > What's wrong with planning, and what's wrong with goal setting in our > > practice of the Dhamma? > N: Yes, we can plan as far as conditions allow. Just as Lodewijk and I > planned my father's birthday party. We needed a roadmap to go by. > > T: I think as long as we do not cling (because of > > craving) to a plan that we have set with a clear goal, and as long as we > > are flexible and simply use them for periodic checking of the progress > > for errors correction puposes, then we should be doing fine. > N: It is good you know that we should not cling to our plan. And a goal, > yes. We may have different goals. Maybe you and I should say what our goal > is. > I can only talk about my own goal: to develop more understanding so that I > learn: all that I read in the text concerns my life at this very moment. > This will help me to have more detachment from whatever is experienced > through the six doors. > As to checking of the progress for errors correction puposes, there is > something in it. Knowing that my latent tendencies are strong, correction of > errors is not easy. First of all I have to know exactly when there are > errors. Thinking of progress: is there not an error to begin with? As for > me, when I think: how much progress do I make, it conditions clinging and > also aversion. And a lot of other kinds of akusala. I think of my poor > progress, and then there is also conceit, clinging to the importance of me, > me. I am important, I have to do better. Such thoughts, you know. > T: One example, my plan for the next 6 months is to do two one-hour sitting- > > meditation sessions every day, with the goal to try with much greater effort > to abandon all hindrances during any meditation session. If I do not > succeed, I'll try again and again. > N: From what you write I think that you intend to temporarily suppress the > hindrances through samatha. The goal and method of samatha is different > from vipassana which is the development of understanding of whatever dhamma > appears through the six doors. > I find it very useful to talk first about samatha. A specific meditation > subject is necessary so that the hindrances can be subdued. We read and hear > a lot about the hindrances. > I have an idea. Let us know the ennemy before attacking! > It is useful to discuss the hindrances one by one. How do they manifest in > your daily life? It is best to begin at this moment to learn more about the > hindrances. In this way you can incorporate your meditation in daily life. > I learnt that not only in vipassana but also in samatha sati sampajañña are > needed. This means: sati and pañña, but these do not concern theory at all. > Strong mindfulness and understanding are necessary also for samatha. One has > to be very sure when a hindrance arises and what its characteristic is. > I would suggest to talk about one hindrance at a time. This is also better > for me, and I cannot always answer mails immediately, other urgent work is > waiting. > Nina. 40061 From: Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,125 Htoo: "If already clean, there is no need for processing. Visuddhi by its name is 'already clean'." Hi Htoo, Thanks for bringing this to my attention. It has given me the incentive to look at the other translation, "Path of Purity". Larry 40062 From: Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:07pm Subject: RE: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Herman: "Sound is hearing is consciousness is knowing." Hi Herman and Howard, My view is that sound can be perceived to arise external to my body, coming from "over there". Obviously sound cannot be perceived to be external to perception but as long as it is external to my body and the physical "heart base" is perceived to be the base of perception there is good reason to believe sound is indeed external to perception and therefore external to consciousness. However, that's probably not really an issue for satipatthana. But I would say "external to the body" is an essential factor. Below is the relevant section of the Satipatthana Sutta. "Mental object" is a translation of "dhamma". The commentary explains that "dhamma" here means the combination of the "physical and spiritual", contemplation of body being physical and contemplations of feeling and consciousness being spiritual. Or, alternatively, "dhamma" refers to the contemplation of the perception and formations khandhas. The fetters that arise dependent on external (to the body) object and internal sense organ seem to be the heart of this particular contemplation. I appended a link to the commentary at the end. Larry ----------------------------- 3. The Six Internal and the Six External Sense-bases "And, further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the six internal and the six external sense-bases. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the six internal and the six external sense-bases? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the eye and material forms and the fetter that arises dependent on both (eye and forms); he understands how the arising of the non-arisen fetter comes to be; he understands how the abandoning of the arisen fetter comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned fetter comes to be. ...... He understands consciousness and mental objects and the fetter that arises dependent on both (consciousness and mental objects); he understands how the arising of the non-arisen fetter comes to be; he understands how the abandoning of the arisen fetter comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned fetter comes to be. "Thus he lives contemplating mental object in mental objects, internally, or he lives contemplating mental object in mental objects, externally, or he lives contemplating mental object in mental objects, internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination-things in mental objects, or he lives contemplating dissolution-things in mental objects, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution-things in mental objects. Or his mind is established with the thought: 'Mental objects exist,' to the extent necessary for just knowledge and remembrance and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world. "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the six internal and the six external sense-bases." -------------------------------- Commentary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22429 40063 From: Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 1:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: Sarah Hi Sarah Thanks for responding to my comments. I'm going to pursue two issues, the first is by far more improtant... Issue #1 Sarah: -- Yes I am saying that ‘Stream Entry eliminates false views permanently ("for good") ‘. All false views are based on self-view, so once this is eradicated, all other false views are eradicated too. We read the same texts, so no need to give you references;-). TG: If all false views have been eliminated by a streamwinner, what are greed, hatred, ignorance, conceit, restlessness, and the desires for either fine material or immaterial states based on ? "Bhikkhus, "I am" is a conceiving...'I am' is a perterbation...'I am' is a palpatation...'I am' is a proliferation...'I am' is an involvement with conceit; 'I am this' is an involvement with conceit; 'I shall be' is an involvement with conceit; 'I shall not be' is an involvement with conceit; I shall consist of form' is an involvement with conceit..." It continues on. (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourse of the Buddha, vol. 2, pg. 1258 -- 1259.) I don't know how it can be argued that the above "I am" is not a false-view? Since conceit is certainly something only an arahat overcomes, I believe subtle false-views associated with 'I am' do continue until that time. Perhaps we have a difference in they way we think about false-views. I would maintain that any delusion is a type of false-view. How could delusion be a correct-view? In Majjhima Nikaya Sutta #1 The higher disciple in training is taked about... That disciple, who is at least a Stream-winner or higher, is advised not to think of things as "mine." That means they still think of things as "mine" and haven't overcome it yet. Sounds like a type of self-view to me. I would agree with your thesis -- that once self-view is entirely eradicated, that all false-views are also eradicted. That would describe an Arahat. But, as far as I can discern, the Sakkaya-Ditthi that a Stream-winner overcomes is only the *belief* that a Self exists. A Stream-winner no longer believes that a Self exists, but they are still saddled with a (somewhat diminished) sense-of-self or 'I am' viewpoint that stills needs to be overcome. Now, I'm waiting for your Sutta references. I think they are needed. ;-) Issue #2 Sarah: -- TG, you’ve mentioned your great respect for the Vism and I know you’re familiar with other commentaries and the Abhidhamma. Are you saying that it is wrong to suggest these clarifications are the Buddha’s teaching? TG: Yes, I think it is wrong to say so. If I were quoting from the Abhidhammamatthasangaha, I would say: -- "This is what is said in the Abhidhammamatthasangaha." I would never say: -- "This is what the Buddha taught." There's a huge and importance difference in my view. Once its being said that the Abhidhammamatthasangaha or Visuddhdimagga or Vimuttimagga are what the Buddha taught, I don't see how anyone can take the position that the Lotus Sutra, or Heart Sutra or Diamond Sutra are not what the Buddha taught. Where do you draw the line? My guess would be that Buddhaghosa would be the first one to say that only the Sutta, Vinaya, and maybe Abhidhamma quotes in the Visuddhimagga are the Buddha's teachings. The rest is analysis. Pretty damn good analysis in my view. But probably not flawless. Even Buddhaghosa ends the Visuddhimagga by suggesting that it probably contains a few errors. He knows or suspects its not flawless! He knows it has a lot of analysis. "...Now that the exposition as set forth, is almost free from errors and flaws..." (Visuddhimagga conclusion) Anyway, I'm far more interested in how you respond to issue #1 because its a matter of understanding or not understanding Dhamma. One of us seems to have a wrong idea on an important issue and if its me, I want it cleared up ASAP. :-) TG 40064 From: Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika Nina: "Feeling is an element devoid of self that falls away immediately. This has to be often considered, because when feeling arises we are immediately overwhelmed." Hi Nina, Could you expand on this a little. How overwhelmed? How is feeling tied up with self view? Does seeing that feeling is not self somehow collapse self view in general? Larry 40065 From: Philip Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika HI Larry, Nina and all > Nina: "Feeling is an element devoid of self that falls away immediately. > This has to be often considered, because when feeling arises we are > immediately overwhelmed." > > Hi Nina, > > Could you expand on this a little. How overwhelmed? How is feeling tied > up with self view? Does seeing that feeling is not self somehow collapse > self view in general? Do you mind if I jump in here for a sec, Larry? I've just been reading about feeling so it would help me reinforce some things. This "immediately overwhelmed" gets at what happens in Honeyball Sutta and so many others - the way we proliferate so quickly starting from the point at which there is contact. Who doesn't? The monk who "stops at seeing." I read somewhere that wise attention is related in some way to *not* being subject to those 4 illusions - I can't remember what they're called now, and I have to run - the illusions which make us see the beautiful in the foul, the permanent in the impermanent and so on. So when we fail to see the impermanence of feelings, we get caught up in them and proliferate. The first dart of bodily feeling leads to the second dart of mental feeling as one sutta in SN puts it. As we know, seeing the impermanence (annica) of dhammas leads to seeing dukkha in them. And do seeing these two characteristics lead to seeing anatta? Anyways, just wanted to hop in there for a sec. I had forgotten that your Vis thread was on feeling now. That's good news for me becauseI am keen on figuring out vedanaa now! Metta, Phil 40066 From: Philip Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:51pm Subject: And then there was hearing! Hello all Happy news to report. Thanks to the improved condition of our computer, I could access the audio files for the first time. Heard K Sujin talking about the black curtain of ignorance that prevents understanding of realities now, about the way "seeing sees" but there is ignorance and attachment -"always, every time" she said, though I would guess "almost always" or 99.9% of the time might be more accurate - after seeing, about the need for patience, khanti. Hearing human voices talking about Dhamma, about patience, was really good for my Dhama-related agitation. Interesting how actually hearing the voice has a different kind of impact, a more calming impact, than just reading the words. I think of my talk with Rob K. I wonder why that is? Well, she has a nice voice anyways. Maybe it's just because it's nice for me to hear Thai-accented English again for the first time in about 12 years. (I spent about 4 months travelling around then.) I look forward to hearing more. Thanks to the moderators for having made them available. Metta, Phil 40067 From: Ken O Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 9:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' Hi Alan Lee > > Yes, Beacuse "The arising and extingushing of Citta" one has no > control over it. It is thus Anatta !!!!! K: I dont understand because when I ask can one master citta, you say yes. Then later you said one has no control over it. Ken O 40068 From: ashkenn2k Date: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Hi Htoo and Nina Nina: thank you, this is clear. But, if the object of the javanacittas is an unpleasant object, the tadaramana-cittas, in the case of a human being are still kusala vipakacittas, is this right? --------------------------------------------------------------------- - Htoo: Rotten flesh is an unpleasant object. Tadarammana cittas will follow 7th domanassa javana citta. They are not somanassa. So they may be one of 4 upekkha mahavipaka cittas, or one of 2 upekkha santirana cittas. But I do not know and I do not think as you said. What is sure is that the man will have kusala vipaka bhavanga cittas. I think tadarammana may be any of 11 cittas but have to comply with preceeding dhamma. K: Where is the source saying that after javana cittas of an unpleasant object, the tadaramana cittas is still kusala for a human. Ken O 40069 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 0:14am Subject: RE: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (193) Dear Friends Herman and Htoo, I hope you don’t mind my butting in Herman's personal reflections here: Herman Hofman wrote: > I would like to share something with you of a personal nature. This is > not a spur of the moment thing, but has been brewing for quite some > time. …. S: I’m sure it has taken some courage to share your background details, Herman and I’m quite sure Htoo will understand. After all, you’re also talking about various dhammas here. Indeed we all have particular experiences which condition various memories and strong likings or aversions accordingly. Sometimes our reactions seem to be quite irrational, but this is usually because we have no idea of the complexity of conditions emanating not just from this life, but many, many countless lives before as well. Samsara is like this – round and round, looking and craving for certain experiences through the senses and being repelled by others on account of the various associations we have. None of this is meant to minimize your difficulties in the past or now,when you read various posts, Herman. … H: > Sorry if this is a strange post. (please do not think that any of this > is about you, I was regurgitating the conditions under which I learnt to > think) …. S: It’s good that you made it clear that it was not intended personally. Of course, there’s never been any suggestion there should be any memorizing or rote-learning of the details Htoo gives us. That has never been my approach to the Abhidhamma either. Like Phil, I have confidence that those aspects which have value and are suitable for my present understanding will soak in and the rest can be put aside. In any case, as students of the Dhamma, we all know that praise and blame are two of the worldly conditions that it’s useless to be swayed by. I'm reminded of the following Dhp verses and story about how even the Great Disciples were blamed for what they spoke or didn’t speak: http://www.vipassana.info/Dhammapada_contents.htm (Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A., Burma Pitaka Association (1986)) >Verses 227 to 230 XVII (7) The Story of Atula the Lay-disciple While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verses (227) to (230) of this book, with reference to Atula and his companions. Once, Atula and his companions numbering five hundred, wishing to listen to words of dhamma, went to Thera Revata. The thera however was very aloof like a lion; he did not say anything to them. They were very much dissatisfied and so they went to Thera Sariputta. When Thera Sariputta learned why they bad come, he expounded exhaustively on the Abhidhamma. He also was not to their liking, and they grumbled that Thera Sariputta had been too lengthy and too profound. Next, Atula and his party approached Thera Ananda. Thera Ananda expounded to them the bare essentials of the Dhamma. This time, they remarked that Thera Ananda had been too brief and too sketchy. Finally they came to the Buddha and said to him, "Venerable Sir, we have come to listen to your teaching. We have been to other teachers before we come here, but we are not satisfied with any of them. Thera Revata did not bother to teach us and he just kept silent; Thera Sariputta was too exhaustive and the Dhamma he taught us was too difficult for us. As for Thera Ananda, he was too brief and too sketchy. We do not like any of their discourses." To them the Buddha said, "My disciples, blaming others is not something new. There is no one in this world who is never blamed; people would blame even a king, or even a Buddha. To be blamed or to be praised by a fool is of no consequence; one is truly blamed only when he is blamed by a wise man, and truly praised only when praised by a wise man." Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows; Verse 227: It is not new, O Atula! It has always been done from ancient times. They blame one who is silent, they blame one who speaks much, they blame one who speaks little. There is no one in this world who is not blamed. Verse 228: There never has been, there never will be, nor is there now, anyone who is always blamed or always praised. Verses 229 - 230: If the wise praise him day after day, knowing him to be truly faultless, wise and endowed with knowledgc and virtue, who would blame him, who is like a nikkha of pure gold? The devas praise him; he is praised even by the great Brahmas. At the end of the discourse Atula and his companions attained Sotapatti Fruition.< end quote> ***** S:May we all learn to see the real roots of our problems and learn to accept praise and blame wisely and with equanimity and metta too. Metta, Sarah ====== 40070 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:23am Subject: Re: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG) -> Sarah Dear Suravira (& TG), You’ll be used to my delayed responses by now…. I greatly appreciated your careful reading of my comments and prompt feedback. --- Suravira wrote: > [Suravira] If we look at the discipline of the practice of > bodhisattva paramittas, for example the practice of kshanti (non- > violence and forbearance; stoic endurance of hardship) cultivates > mindfulness and insight into the powers karma and mental afflictions > (e.g., greed, anger and ingnorance) relative to the circumstances of > daily life as well as adversities that arise. Through the > cultivation of kshanti mental afflictions are illuminated - we see > their nature and those insights develops prajna (transcendent > wisdom). …. S: could we put it the other way round and say that with panna, khanti is developed? Otherwise, so easily, it’s taken for ‘my khanti’ or a conventional idea of khanti rather than khanti with what is experienced through the various sense doors? In other words, even the paramis have to develop with understanding. …. > [Suravira] Stream entry is an incomplete enlightenment, it is not a > terminus as ignorance is deeply rooted and persistent. …. S: Agreed. …. >As such all > false views are not eradicated for good at that moment (however, the > false views of individuality, doubt in the Dhamma and confidence in > rituals are eradicated). For example, the false views related to > anger is not eradicated until arhatship. A person becomes an aryan > at stream entry, but not all aryans are arhats. …. S: You and TG are making the same points and I’ve seen them before of course. As I understand, ALL wrong views are eradicated at sotapatti-magga, but other defilements such as anger and attachment are eradicated at the stages of anagami and arahant respectively. For example, we read about the perversions (vipallasa) of citta, sanna and ditthi. All perversions with ditthi (wrong view) , as in taking the impermanent for permanent, foul for beautiful, unsatisfactory for satisfactory and anatta for atta, are eradicated at sotapatti magga. See Nyantiloka’s dictionary under ‘Vipallasa’ and ‘Ariyans’. This is why in suttas like the Mulapariyaya Sutta, it is made clear that the sotapanna and other Learners (sekha) do not mis-conceive realities such as earth (pathavi rupa) as belonging to self etc. The commentary to the sutta quotes from S.45:13/v,14 where it says “To what extent, Lord, is one a learner?” “here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu us endowed with a learner’s right view…a learner’s right concentration. To this extent a bhikkhu is a learner”. A little later the samy Cy adds: “The learner has abandoned the conceiving of views, and has diminished the others.” You’ll also find much more in U.P. under ‘wrong views’ and ‘sotapanna’, I think. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ..... >It is imperative > that the aryan continue to 'enter the stream' over and over again in > order to develop the capacity of liberate themselves from the powers > of unwholesome kamma and mental afflictions - even into the layer of > latent tendencies. … S: Agreed, though I believe we can only refer to ‘entering the stream’ once technically speaking. The stream that is bound for full enlightenment.. From the same Cy as I happen to have it open now in the section under ‘Learner’: “The base of conceiving should be fully understood by the learner through the three full understandings, for he has entered the course of rightness (okkantaniyaamattaa) and is bound for enlightenment. Unlike the worldling he is not wholly lacking in full understanding, and unlike the arahant he has not completed full understanding.” … > As the Buddha taught in the Dhammapada verse 398: > 'Just as a tree, though cut down > sprouts up again if its roots remain uncut and firm, > even so, until the craving that lies dormant is rooted out, > suffering springs up again and again.' … S: The roots of ditthi (wrong view) and other associated grosser defilements have been uprooted by the sotapanna, but the really deep roots have yet to be uprooted. …. > [Suravira] Yes, the nature of paramattha dhammas is not dependent > upon valid cognition. … S: ;-) I’ll have to encourage you to talk to TG on these! …. > > Seeing or hearing are seeing and hearing whether or not there > > is ever any awareness of knowing about them or not. > [Suravira] I imagine you are, by analogy, stating that the tree > falls in the woods even when there is no one there to hear or see > that tree fall? …. S: Yes, but even if we talk about what is experiencing and being experienced now, such as hearing and sounds, they continue to rise and fall away whether or not there is any knowing or awareness of them or not. …. <…> > > This makes it sound as if realities can be > > known by thinking and by a self or 'we' doing something. > > [Suravira] I think I have misunderstood your point here as it > appears to me that you are promoting nihilism - not the middle way. …. S: The middle way is surely the way of understanding the truth of realities (dhammas) for what they are, as pointed out by the Buddha. The truth is that they are anatta and can only be known by right understanding etc. No nihilism involved. Glad to discuss this point further. …. > > > Paramattha > > dhammas can only ever be known or realized by directly > understanding their > > characteristics when they appear, now. > > [Suravira] The absolute is imponderable and incalculable by > discriminating perception (sanna). …. S: It seems to me that you are equating nibbana with paramattha dhammas, whereas the Abhidhamma equates cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana with paramattha. I agree that nibbana is imponderable and incalculable. But why is say ‘sound’ or ‘hardness’ imponderable or unknowable? … > [Suravira] Nibbana is one of the four paramattha dhammas (the other > three being citta, cetaseka and rupa). Refer to Sujin's large book > translated by Nina. …. S: Good. I’m really delighted you’re reading this book. For others, pls refer to: ‘Survey of Paramattha Dhammas’ http://www.abhidhamma.org/survey6.pdf ….. > [Suravira] Conditioned dhamma are comprehensible and it is > imperative that we understand that which is being negated - the > nature of which is anatta, is shunyatta. … S: Anatta is merely the characteristic or nature of these same conditioned dhammas, not something to be known separately. Have I misunderstood yout? …. > Nibbana is imponderable to the discriminating perception. Only at > stream entry is one provided a glimpse of the nature of nibbana. … S: Yes. So let’s leave nibbana for later;-). …. > > > This is why there are 4 Noble Truths. > > > [Suravira] I am sorry but I am unable to grasp the reason(s) > implicit within this point. I am imagining that you are pointing to > the truth of cessation, which is naturally present due to anatta and > shunyatta. … S: No need to apologise. We’ve come from different Buddhist backgrounds and it takes a little while to find a common language. I was merely stressing that there is not just the truth of cessation, but the Truths of Dukkha, the Truth of the cause of Dukkha and the Path to be followed. As I said, let’s leave aside nibbana or the Truth of cessation for now as it can’t be known or pondered.. … > [Suravira] Nama-vinanna experience the 'meaning' of the paramattha > dhamma - this meaning is a concept, a thought (pannattis dhamma). … S: The meaning of paramattha dhamma is the reality right now as we speak. It is not a concept, though of course we use concepts to discuss what is real. Let me ask you what is real, as you understand, right now as you read and type? …. > [Suravira] It is sanna that supports perspective. As sanna is > present with every citta, then perspective is always present in each > conscious moment of consciousness. …. S: Yes, well said. Usually for us worldlings, it is perverted sanna, but even for arahants there is sanna arising at each moment with a ‘perspective’ of reality or concept. Of course no sanna vipallasa (perversion) for arahants. …. > [Suravira] This is so, only as long as it is understood that nibbana > is imponderable to the discriminating perception. … S: Only for the ‘discriminating perception’ that arises with the lokuttara cittas when all eightfold path factors and associated mental factors such as sanna are present. …. > Thank you for your considered questions. It is always a pleasure to > discuss the Dhamma with you. … S: Likewise. Please persist with this discussion. Also, if I’m slow in responding, you may find it interesting to listen to a little of the audio discussion with A.Sujin as you’re reading her book. It can be found at the bottom of our back-up site-: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Metta, Sarah ====== 40071 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 1:34am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 80- Volition/cetanaa (j) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** Kusala kamma can be classified as dåna (generosity), síla (morality or virtue) and bhåvanå (mental development). Dåna comprises, apart from giving gifts, many other forms of kusala. Included in dåna are, for example, appreciating the kusala cittas of others and ‘sharing one’s merits’. As to the sharing of one’s merits, when someone has done a wholesome deed and he gives others the opportunity to rejoice in the kusala he has performed, it is a way of dåna; at such a moment he helps others to have kusala cittas as well. The observance of the precepts which is síla, can also be considered as a way of dåna. We read in the Gradual Sayings, (Book of the Eights, Chapter IV, §9, Outcomes of Merit) that going for refuge to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha leads to happy results and that there are further five gifts which lead to happy results. These are the following (2): ... "Herein, monks, a noble disciple gives up the taking of life and abstains from it. By abstaining from the taking of life, the noble disciple gives to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, gives to them freedom from hostility, and freedom from oppression. By giving to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, hostility and oppression, he himself will enjoy immeasurable freedom from fear, hostility and oppression… "Further, monks, a noble disciple gives up the taking of what is not given… …gives up sexual misconduct… …gives up wrong speech… …gives up intoxicating drinks and drugs causing heedlessness, and abstains from them. By abstaining from intoxicating drinks and drugs, the noble disciple gives to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, freedom from hostility and freedom from oppression. By giving to immeasurable beings freedom from fear, hostility and oppression, he himself will enjoy immeasurable freedom from fear, freedom from hostility and freedom from oppression…" ... When we abstain from ill deeds we give others the opportunity to live in safety and without fear. ... 2) Translated by Ven. Nyanaponika, in Anguttara Nikåya, An Anthology III, Wheel publication 238-240, BPS. Kandy, 1976. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40072 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Joop, > > Back to our thread here.. Dear Sarah Thanks for your exact reactions. I will make it easy (for myself) and concentrate on my real question (to myself): will and can I call myself a Theravadin ? I think the asnwer is: no, and I don't need a label; and I accept much of the teachings of the Buddha, a part is mythology. And further: it's impossible to talk about the Teachings without projecting own opinions in it: the commentators were doing it, kalupahana did it and all dsg-members do it. Then the details > I think these particular questions on sabhava only arise for those > who are familiar with the Mahayana teachings where it has other > connotations. J: That's a good observation. But Mahayanist and Theravadins (or whatever their name was) interacted with each other and influenced each other 1500 years ago. So there is reason to be cautious. > Here's a quote from Vism 1, n14 which I like and which is relevant > to other threads: > ... > according to its individual essence (sabhava), J: sabhava translated to "individual essence": that's a translation with much (for me: too much) idealism in it. But more important is the question: why did the commentarors need the term 'sabhava", which problem has to be resolved with it, the Buddha didn't use it, as far as I know ? > S: No reason why we can't add a Joop social citta 90/122;-) > I think that when we understand more about Joop social citta, > we'll find it is covered by others, ...(snip) ... > we understand others better J: No: no 'others" and no "understanding": I'm talking about feeling the presence of a concrete person, feeling the presence of the Buddha too. And to me the list of Dhamma's had for that empathic faculty of human beings been completed with a social citta. It has already 'social rupas' (kayavinatti and vacivannatti) and 'social cetasikas' (metta, kauna, mudita and possibly others) But I did't have the illusion that the 'Abhidhamma community' should simply accept my proposal for adding a new citta to the list. For myself it exists, I'm deeply sure of it. But I will not repeat the discussion of this summer. Still a general question: Are there any procedures to change the list of Dhamma's ? Is there a committee to decide about it ?I did not find this theme in the U.P ! A prealable question: is it in principle possible to change. I think it is and will recall the adding of the rupa "hadaya vatthu" (by commentators ?) to the list of the Dhammasangani. ...(snip) ... > Just keep raising your concerns and issues, Joop. No need to give us > orthodox labels;-). > > Metta, > Sarah Thanks; I will try not to give labels toersons, even not to myself ! Metta Joop 40073 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 3:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (193) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Dear Friend Htoo, > > I would like to share something with you of a personal nature. This is > not a spur of the moment thing, but has been brewing for quite some > time. > > When I read your posts, often I have very unpleasant memories and a > slight nausea arises. I am brought back to my school days. I was brought > up in a very strict, very fundamentalist, ultra-conservative Dutch > Christian sect. I was sent to a very strict, very fundamentalist, > ultra-conservative school. Hallo Herman It's not a strange post at all, I recognize it. Even if I had not that emotions but I have also been at a calvinistic dutch school But I did like arithmatic, so some others possiblilities: 11 * 11 = 121 22+22+22+22+22+1 = 121 121 + 1 = 122 (with my proposed "social citta" etc But we now know all mathematics belongs to the world of pannatti (concepts, illusions) Even the numer 121 does Metta Joop 40074 From: jonoabb Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:45am Subject: Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Herman (and Phil) Hope you don't mind me butting in here ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > Hi Phil, ... > What the mind gets fed, gets regurgitated. Round and round it goes. > I notice such a difference between when I wasn't active on the list > and now. Now throughout the day I find myself drafting replies here, > mentally raising points there, or just thinking about what someone > wrote. While during my absence, there was none of that. Right, there was none of that particular kind of reflecting (namely, reflecting on matters being discussed on the list); but there would have been thinking about other matters, since that is the nature of the mind. Even the arahant continues to think, but without akusala. > With the natural arising of seeing that there is the ongoing and > avid adding or mending of a brick, or a wall, or a storey (story) to > the mental house-of-cards, and seeing the disadvantage of that > activity, there will be a natural withdrawal from that. On my reading of the teachings, there is no disadvantage in thinking per se, and particularly in thinking that is kusala; the insight that leads to the eventual breaking down of that wall depends on kusala thinking of a particular kind for its development (I'm not of course saying that the thinking and the insight are the same). There are plenty of suttas that talk about hearing the dhamma, considering what has been heard and gaining a reflective acceptance of what has thus been understood, as part of the chain of conditions that culminate in enlightenment. Now as I understand matters, the thinking you are talking about here, i.e., thinking about points that have arisen for discussion on the list, is likely to include this very kind of kusala thinking. We should value it! No need to have as one's aim withdrawing from this kind of thinking. Jon [A similar post was sent previously but does not seem to have showed up on the list. Apologies for any duplication that may occur.] 40075 From: Tep Sastri Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:47am Subject: Re: And then there was hearing! Hi, Phil - > Interesting how actually > hearing the voice has a different kind of impact, a more calming > impact, than just reading the words. Can you speculate why does hearing the Dhamma produce stronger impact than reading? Does saddha correlate more strongly to voice than picture? There are stories of people in the past who became at least Stream-winner simply by listening to the Buddha's lectures. Of course, there were no Dhamma books during that time, but who would care about books when they could listen to the living Buddha? Regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > Hello all > > > Happy news to report. Thanks to the improved condition of our > computer, I could access the audio files for the first time. > Heard K Sujin talking about the black curtain of ignorance that > prevents understanding of realities now, about the way "seeing sees" > but there is ignorance and attachment -"always, every time" she said, > though I would guess "almost always" or 99.9% of the time might be > more accurate - after seeing, about the need for patience, khanti. > Hearing human voices talking about Dhamma, about patience, was > really good for my Dhama-related agitation. Interesting how actually > hearing the voice has a different kind of impact, a more calming > impact, than just reading the words. I think of my talk with Rob K. I > wonder why that is? > > Well, she has a nice voice anyways. Maybe it's just because it's > nice for me to hear Thai-accented English again for the first time in > about 12 years. (I spent about 4 months travelling around then.) > > I look forward to hearing more. Thanks to the moderators for > having made them available. > > Metta, > Phil 40076 From: Philip Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:12am Subject: Re: And then there was hearing! Hi Tep, and all > > Interesting how actually > > hearing the voice has a different kind of impact, a more calming > > impact, than just reading the words. > > Can you speculate why does hearing the Dhamma produce stronger > impact than reading? Does saddha correlate more strongly to voice > than picture? I could speculate... For me, it could simply be the novelty factor. After reading so much about Dhamma, to listen to people talking about it. Technically speaking, if I'm not mistaken, the rupa of a person's voice is conditioned by the citta that leads to the speaking. So there could be a wholesome aspect to the rupa of the voice of a person with right understanding. I think I learned that a person's smile and other "physical intimations (?)" are rupa that are conditioned by citta. So the voice of a person with profound understanding could conceivably have a quality that is calming or encouraging for saddha. That is mere speculation. If anyone thinks that there could be grounds for that, please confirm. >There are stories of people in the past who became at > least Stream-winner simply by listening to the Buddha's lectures. Yes, though the way all 500 of them become enlightened in some cases strikes me as pretty...what's the right word...well, far- fetched for the purpose of inspiring listeners rather than describing a believable process of enlightenment. Just my opinion, of course. > Of course, there were no Dhamma books during that time, but who would > care about books when they could listen to the living Buddha? Ah, Tep, I do love my books! A real attachment. I sometimes wonder if what I really want is liberation from samsara or to read suttas while sipping coffee. Anyways, it was a very good experience to listen to K Sujin like that. I will do so again when I am feeling agitated. Ah, but then there will be expectations, and the calming effect I received today will not come....expectations can be so counter-productive. Metta, Phil 40077 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Dear Tep, op 22-12-2004 01:04 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: It may take incredibly long time before we can be free from this kind of > defilement for good. Is it true that one has to become Anagami in order > to eradicate dosa? N: Yes. But the coarse dosa wears away when someone becomes a sotapanna and a sakadagami. The reason is that there is at these stages a lessening of clinging to sense objects. Clinging to sense objects is an important condition for dosa: this arises when things are not as we want them to be. When I come to think of it, when whatever appears is seen as only a conditioned nama or rupa, one will mind less and less whether the object is welcome or not. It is conditioned already. Let be the heat, the cold, the unpleasant word one hears. Think of the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint. The monk who heard unpleasant speech realized: this is only the impingement of sound on the earsense. Whatever happens has to happen, but for worldlings it is difficult to practise, don't you think? T: Talking about 'Dhamma as the refuge', here is my favorite quote from > DN 16: N: This is also one of my favorite ones. And it is repeated in many other suttas, such as the Parinibbana sutta. > T: I am so glad to tell you that your goal is also my goal. Precisely, I > want to develop strong sati and sampajanna in every moment to "help > me to have more detachment from whatever is experienced through > the six doors", like you have said. I think MN 149 [Maha-salayatanika > Sutta] explains how we can achieve such a goal. N: I like this sutta because it deals with eye, visible object and seeing, etc. About all common realities. I like this, because we do not have to go far to develop understanding. And in many suttas the same is explained. > T: ...Yes, when there is a strong anusaya, especially > the ignorance latent tendency, it is difficult to know fine errors. We need > a capable teacher to help us discover fine errors, I guess. Otherwise, > can we start developing concentration (samadhi) first, and when it is > strong enough, use it as the basis to develop wisdom as stated in the > suttas? N: I think that for samatha and vipassana sati sampajañña has to be stressed. Really, many dhammas have to be understood, also in the case of samatha. > N: As for me, when I think: how much progress do I make, it conditions > clinging and also aversion. .... > T: Good points, Nina. But those akusala thoughts, being the kind of > gross errors that we can readily see, should tend toward diminution as > our wisdom develops (through training in the Dhamma) and we > become more and more effective in the error identification and > correction, using the suttas and/or a teacher as guidance. N: Sure, the suttas can make us consider our faults and vices. Take the anumana sutta. We shall think twice before critizing others. T: Out of the five hindrances, the last three are what I have trouble with > most of the time. And they quite often "manifest" themselves in any > situation. During a meditation (samatha or vipassana) they often arise > closely together. How about starting with skeptical doubt (vicikiccha)? N: It is a good idea and I think that it does not matter in what order we talk about them. I like to listen first to your input about doubt and how it manifests in any situation. Meanwhile I also reflect about it. Nina. 40078 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika. Hi Phil, op 22-12-2004 04:38 schreef Philip op plnao@j...:> > This "immediately overwhelmed" gets at what happens in Honeyball > Sutta and so many others - the way we proliferate so quickly starting > from the point at which there is contact. Who doesn't? The monk who > "stops at seeing." N: Yes, I read: whatevere is the origin of anumber of obsessions and perceptions...if there is nothing to rejoice at...this in itself is an end to the latent tendency of sense desire... aversion... etc. Those latent tendencies condition the attachment with feeling. etc. Ph: I read somewhere that wise attention is related in some way to > *not* being subject to those 4 illusions - I can't remember what > they're called now, and I have to run - the illusions which make us > see the beautiful in the foul, the permanent in the impermanent and > so on. So when we fail to see the impermanence of feelings, we get > caught up in them and proliferate. N: In the next para of the Vis. , 126, the Co stresses in particular wise attention as a condition for feeling to be kusala and unwise attention for feeling to be akusala. I think that the reason is that feelings are very predominant. When there is wise attention they do not overwhelm us. I am glad about your input. Ph: The first dart of bodily feeling leads to the second dart of mental feeling as one sutta in SN puts it. N: I remember. When you have aversion of pain, you make it worse, another dart. Ph: As we know, seeing the impermanence (annica) of dhammas leads to > seeing dukkha in them. And do seeing these two characteristics lead > to seeing anatta? N: The three characteristics are closely connected, see the suttas of K.S.IV. But depending on the individual, one of these three may be seen more often than the others. Just before enlightenment, one characteristic is seen, but this means, they are all three penetrated. Ph; Anyways, just wanted to hop in there for a sec. N: Do hop in more often, appreciated, Nina. 40079 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika. Hi Larry, op 22-12-2004 04:24 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > quotes Nina: "Feeling is an element devoid of self that falls away immediately. > This has to be often considered, because when feeling arises we are > immediately overwhelmed." L: Could you expand on this a little. How overwhelmed? N: When pleasant feeling arises with kusala citta, we are not overwhelmed, but immediately after that we are bound to cling to that pleasant feeling. We find it very important to have pleasant feeling, we are enslaved to it. We like to have pleasant objects and often we cling to those with pleasant feeling. And again we like that pleasant feeling arising with clinging and so we continue being enslaved to pleasant feeling. When we have aversion, this is accompanied by unpleasant feeling, and we dislike this unpleasant feeling, and in this way aversion with unpleasant feeling arises again, taking as object unpleasant feeling. We suffer because of unpleasant feeling. As to indifferent feeling, we are likely to be ignorant of this, we do not notice it. Pleasant feeling and unpleasant feeling we experienced in the past on account of certain objects or events are the condition for a person to vivdly remember these objects, he does not forget. Thus feelings have a strong impact on people. The Dispeller of Delusion, I, p. 15, under Feeling aggregate classifies gross and subtle feeling in different ways. One of these is: L:How is feeling tied up with self view? N: We cling to feeling with lobha unaccompanied by wrong view, or with wrong view or with conceit. These three ways of clinging are the papañcas, proliferations. They slow down the process of liberation from the cycle. When we cling to feeling with wrong view we think that it is my feeling, that we possess feeling, that we can have absolute power over it. We do not see it as just a conditioned element. L: Does seeing that feeling is not self somehow collapse self view in general? N: Since we are inclined to take feeling for self, the Buddha included it among the four satipatthanas. We read in the Co (p. 141): And the subco: <(There is no ego that experiences) because there is no doer or agent (kattu) besides a bare process (dhamma). The word bare indicates that the process is impersonal.> It is important not to neglect feeling as object of mindfulness, but all four satipatthanas have to be developed. I have read that who understands feeling understands all dhammas, but we should consider what this implies. We are likely to confuse bodily phenomena with namas such as feeling, but in order to understand feeling as nama, insight has to be developed of all objects experienced through the six doors. The first stage of insight, distinguishing between nama and rupa, cannot be foregone. Thus, when we read that feeling is truly understood as it is, it means that all nama and rupa that appear are also understood as they are. Nina. 40080 From: Philip Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:40am Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 80- Volition/cetanaa (j) Hello all > When we abstain from ill deeds we give others the opportunity to > live in safety and without fear. This is very nice. I certainly think of the benefits I will receive from abstention and rarely think in the above terms. Everytime we abstain, does it condition another moment of abstention? Can kusala citta that is an abstention be natural decisive support condition for a later citta? Or are there other conditions at work that are just as likely to prevail? Of course there are. I think if I had more faith in the power of moments of abstention it would be easier to break bad habits. I read somewhere about different kinds of abstentions. Some are based on precepts, some are based on social norms (?), and I think there's one more class. I remember wondering why there wasn't a class of abstention included that wasn't conditioned by following precepts, and wasn't conditioned by social norms, but instead arose from basic wisdom having been developed. i.e from simply having come to learn that doing something leads to unpleasant results in the longer run despite pleasure in the short run. I wonder if you know the classification of abstentions that I am referring to... Metta, Phil 40081 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (193) Dear Herman, I understand you and your post. You will see two things in the whole world if you thoughtfully look into. 1. One is conservation. 2. Another is discovery. I will talk on the 2nd point that is discovery. Copernicus, Galelio, Hipocrates, Newton, Einstein and many endless people discovered new and new thing. Discovery is still ongoing. Scientists look into their science and made input to the whole world for later use. In the Stone Age, there was no proper storage of food. If stored they went rotten. Scientific observation and discoveries made better and better way of living. Nowadays almost everything can be handy if affordable. This is because of manipulation of physical law. Manipulation here I mean 'usage of physical law' or utu niyama. Again, science approaches genes. Mendelson made a great input into genetics. Crick and Watson discovered whole human genome. With the discoveries of these genes and manipulation current world has a good chance to receive some good effect. Now scientists are trying to switch off some genes which otherwise would cause bad effect. There are many many DNAs or Deoxyribonucleic Acids and RNAs or Ribonucleic Acids like cDNA, ssDNA, dsDNA, sDNA, siDNA, mRNA, tRNA, sRNA, and many others. Each has own function. siDNA or small interfering DNA was discovered recently and now scientists are trying to switch off some genes with the aid of genetic manipulations. This is gene approach. This is usage of bija niyama or genetic law. Both physical law and genetic law are now being under usage. Both are still under new and new discoveries. Now I am going back to the point one that is 'conservation'. The Buddha discovered citta niyama, kamma niyama, dhamma niyama. He also knew utu niyama and bija niyama. But The Buddha main appraoch is for liberation. There are interlinks between citta and kamma and dhamma. The Buddha discovered. All other beings have to follow The Buddha and they all have to conserve what The Buddha had discovered. No one can add anything new. And there is no new discoveries and there will never be new discoveries regarding citta niyama. If you want to be conservative just follow The Path of The Buddha and help yourself liberated. If you want to follow point 2 that is discovery of science or later people, then you can also follow them and everybody has the right to choose liberally and freely. Your point seemed to say on some sociology matter. That is teaching methods. There are many teaching methods. Even in Buddha time, some teaching methods were not totally effective. That is why some great monks were transferred to be under training of some younger monks. Regurgitationwise, there are many who regurgitate. For me, I am not regurgitating anything. Once I was accused that some of my posts were very good and very experiential and practical and some were totally regurgitative. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Dear Friend Htoo, > > I would like to share something with you of a personal nature. This is > not a spur of the moment thing, but has been brewing for quite some > time. > > When I read your posts, often I have very unpleasant memories and a > slight nausea arises. I am brought back to my school days. I was brought > up in a very strict, very fundamentalist, ultra-conservative Dutch > Christian sect. I was sent to a very strict, very fundamentalist, > ultra-conservative school. > > The teaching method was rote learning under the threat of violence or > abuse. This method covered all subjects. For example, each student had > to learn a section of the Bible to recite from memory in front of the > master every Monday morning. Depending on how poor your performance was, > you were either hit, shaken about or verbally abused. If you were word > perfect you were praised. Each Monday morning the nausea would rise up > as you witnessed the abuse before your name was called out. > > Sometimes around town I see little advertising pictures or letters > written in a particular way which also remind me of my maths, writing > and reading classes. The teaching there was much the same, and I get a > sick feeling in my stomach when I am reminded. > > It is quite a scary thought for me that the task of teaching children > how to think and what to think is often in the hands of very ignorant > people. This includes parents whose major skill in life is making > babies, and who rear their offspring by simply repeating what was done > to themselves. Without an understanding of the past, we are bound to > repeat it. And that's the way it goes, on and on and on.... > > > > Sorry if this is a strange post. (please do not think that any of this > is about you, I was regurgitating the conditions under which I learnt to > think) > > > Kind Regards > > > Herman > > > I was a good student. Of course, I can take no credit for that. The > ability to learn is beyond control. > > -----Original Message----- > From: htootintnaing [mailto:htootintnaing@y...] > Sent: Wednesday, 22 December 2004 2:23 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (193) > > > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > There are different classification systems on citta. > > A. Vedana classification (62 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 55 = 121) > > B. Hetu classification ( 18 + 2 + 22 + 47 = 89) > > C. Jati classification ..a) (12 + 21 + 36 + 20 = 89) > ..b) (12 + 37 + 52 + 20 = 121) > > D. Bhumi classification ..a) (54 + 15 + 12 + 8 = 89) > ..b) (54 + 15 + 12 + 40 = 121) > > E. Kicca classification( 1.19,2.19,3.2,4.2,5.2,6.2,7.2,8.2,9.2, > 10.3,11.1,12.55,13.11,14.19) > > (19+19+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+3+1+55+11+19= 141 - overlapping 52 = 89) > > F. Multifunctional classification > > (1.2,2.8,3.9,4.2,5.68) 2+8+9+2+68= 89 > > G. Dvara classification (1.46,2.46,3.46,4.46,5.46,6.67 ) > > and many others. > > G. Dvara classification on citta > > 1. 46 cakkhu-dvarika cittas > 2. 46 sota-dvarika cittas > 3. 46 ghana-dvarika cittas > 4. 46 jivha-dvarika cittas > 5. 46 kaya-dvarika cittas > 6. 67 mano-dvarika cittas > > Dvarika means 'at door'. There are 46 cittas that arise at eye- sense- > door or at cakkhu dvara. These 46 cittas are > > 1. 1 pancadvaravajjana citta > 2. 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas (akusala and kusala vipaka) > 3. 2 sampaticchana cittas (akusala and kusala vipaka) > 4. 3 santirana cittas (2 upekkha and 1 somanassa) > 5. 1 votthapana citta ( which is manodvaravajjana citta) > 6.29 kama-javana cittas( 12 akusala, 1 hasituppada, 8 mahakusala, > 8 mahakiriya cittas) > 7. 8 tadarammana cittas ( 8 mahavipaka cittas) > ------- > 46 cittas > > All these 46 cittas can arise at cakkhu dvara or eye-sense-door. > > In sotadvara 2 sotavinnana cittas replace cakkhuvinnana cittas and so > do 2 ghanavinnana, 2 jivhavinnana, 2 kayavinnana. All other cittas > are characterwise the same as in cakkhudvara vithi cittas. > > So there are 46 + 2 sotavinnana + 2 ghanavinnana + 2 jivhavinnana > + 2 kayavinnana altogether 54 cittas can arise at 5-sense-doors. > > When these 54 cittas are analysed, they are all kamavacara cittas. > > May you all be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they > will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just > give a reply to any of these posts. > 40082 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,125 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Htoo: "If already clean, there is no need for processing. > Visuddhi by its name is 'already clean'." > > Hi Htoo, > > Thanks for bringing this to my attention. It has given me the incentive > to look at the other translation, "Path of Purity". > > Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Larry, No. I have not recommended anything yet. Actually I prefer 'path of purification'. But 'path of purity' is equally right. This is the point why I stick to Pali words. With respect, Htoo Naing 40083 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Ken O, I think it is referring to vipaka citta which is the result of kusala in case of human. Because human beings are born with kusala vipaka cittas and tadarammana also mostly arise is kusala vipaka cittas. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > > Hi Htoo and Nina > > Nina: thank you, this is clear. > But, if the object of the javanacittas is an unpleasant object, the > tadaramana-cittas, in the case of a human being are still kusala > vipakacittas, is this right? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > Htoo: Rotten flesh is an unpleasant object. Tadarammana cittas will > follow 7th domanassa javana citta. They are not somanassa. So they > may be one of 4 upekkha mahavipaka cittas, or one of 2 upekkha > santirana cittas. > > But I do not know and I do not think as you said. What is sure is > that the man will have kusala vipaka bhavanga cittas. I think > tadarammana may be any of 11 cittas but have to comply with > preceeding dhamma. > > > K: Where is the source saying that after javana cittas of an > unpleasant object, the tadaramana cittas is still kusala for a human. > > > Ken O 40084 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 8:47am Subject: Dhamma Thread (195) Dear Dhamma Friends, G. Dvara classification on citta 1. 46 cakkhu-dvarika cittas 2. 46 sota-dvarika cittas 3. 46 ghana-dvarika cittas 4. 46 jivha-dvarika cittas 5. 46 kaya-dvarika cittas 6. 67 mano-dvarika cittas 7. 19 dvara-vimutta cittas ( or 19 advarika cittas ) H. Multidoor classification on citta 1. 36 ekadvarika cittas(10 dvipancavinnana cittas,26 mahagata javana) 2. 3 pancadvarika cittas ( 3 manodhatus ) 3. 31 chadvarika cittas(29kama javana and1 soma santirana, 1 votthapa) 4. 10 chadvarika-advarika cittas ( 2 santirana, 8 mahavipaka 0 5. 9 advarika cittas or dvaravimutta cittas ( 9 mahaggata vipaka) ----- 89 cittas I. Arammana classification on citta Before going deep into this arammana or objects have to be explained. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40085 From: Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:48am Subject: Re: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG) -> Sarah Hi Sarah I've got to condense the below into a few responses... Sarah: This is why in Suttas like the Mulapariyaya Sutta, it is made clear that the sotapanna and other Learners (sekha) do not mis-conceive realities such as earth (pathavi rupa) as belonging to self etc. The commentary to the sutta quotes from S.45:13/v,14 where it says “To what extent, Lord, is one a learner?â€? “here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu us endowed with a learner’s right view…a learner’s right concentration. To this extent a bhikkhu is a learnerâ€?. A little later the samy Cy adds: “The learner has abandoned the conceiving of views, and has diminished the others.â€? TG: Interesting we used the same Sutta to make the opposite point. Unless my translation by B. Bodhi is totally corrupt, it seems clear from reading the Mulapariyaya Sutta that the Buddha is advising "learners" (stream-winners, once-returners, non-returners) to NOT see things as "mine." This means, as I read it, that they still do regard things in that manner to some extent. Why would the Buddha need to advise them to see things as "not mine" if they had eliminated that possibility? I understand this to be a "proof" of the position I'm talking. The first commentary you provide states -- "endowed with a learners Right View" I interpret it to mean -- they have developed a certain level of right view and that's the view they are endowed with. I wouldn't consider it for a moment to be a justification for thinking they have eliminated all false views. In fact, the term "learners right view" seems to be putting a limit on their level of right view. The second comment you list actually supports my position more so than yours I think. It flatly maintains that there are still "diminished views" that the stream-winner has not eliminated. Not sure how you find that to support your position. Sarah: S: The roots of ditthi (wrong view) and other associated grosser defilements have been uprooted by the sotapanna, but the really deep roots have yet to be uprooted. TG: Wait a minute! ;-) Roots are roots. You can't eliminate the roots and still have deeper roots! If there are still deeper roots of wrong-view remaining, then there is still some wrong-view left. It sounds like you are making my case. Thanks, I need the rest. :-) TG: The Suttas describe a Stream-winner in three main different ways from what I can recollect... 1) The most basic and perhaps most often way is someone who has full confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha (they are doing the right thing) and "spotless virtues." 2) Someone who had eliminated -- personality-belief, doubt, and attachment to rites and rituals. 3) Someone who has -- gained the spotless vision that "whatsoever is of the nature to arise, must also be of the nature to cease." To me the third is the key of what a Stream-winner is. They basically have come to a complete understanding of the principles of Dependent Origination. By understanding Dependent Origination, they no longer "believe" in a self. The principle of Dependent Origination makes a "self" an impossibility so they don't have "self-belief." They also have perfect confidence in the Buddha who expounds Dependent Origination. They have perfect confidence in the Dhamma which is the teaching of Dependent Origination, and the Sangha which is carrying out that teaching of Dependent Origination. They have no doubts because they understand the principles of Dependent Origination. They have no attachments to rites and rituals because rites and rituals are generally "superstitious" and not based on Dependent Origination. None of this is to say, or even suggest, that all false-views are permanently eradicated. I don't think there is any Sutta that will make that point either, but would love to see it if there is. Take care. TG 40086 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Five cords of sensual pleasure - why not six? Hi Phil, yes, but I cannot resist answering. It usually is a translation of kama-raga, sense desire. It is attachment to sense objects which can be experienced through the six doors. It is nice that you share suttas with us. Nina. op 22-12-2004 01:02 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Also, this thread made me realize that I don't understand "feeling" > yet in the Dhamma sense. When "sensual pleasure" is used, is it > referring to mental pleasure as well as body pleasure? This is a rhetorical question - no need to answer it. It is my homework! Back to the vedaana chapter in cetasikas, and on to the vedanaasamyutta. 40087 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: And then there was hearing! Hi Philip and Tep, op 22-12-2004 15:12 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Technically speaking, if I'm not mistaken, the rupa of a person's > voice is conditioned by the citta that leads to the speaking. So > there could be a wholesome aspect to the rupa of the voice of a > person with right understanding. I think I learned that a person's > smile and other "physical intimations (?)" are rupa that are > conditioned by citta. N: Correct, bodily intimation and speech intimation are rupas originating from citta. When someone else hears sound produced by kusala citta, the hearing is kusala vipakacitta. Even if there is bad news, but the speech is full of compassion, hearing is kusala vipaakacitta. Ph: So the voice of a person with profound > understanding could conceivably have a quality that is calming or > encouraging for saddha. That is mere speculation. If anyone thinks > that there could be grounds for that, please confirm. N: This depends on the listener's accumulations. Some people do not like to hear a particular person even if she/he is full of wisdom. Think of the Buddha in his time. There is another thing. Kh. Sujin said that Dhamma is Dhamma and that it does not matter who speaks, we should not cling to a particular speaker. In the course of years I more and more came to see this. I appreciate others who speak on Dhamma also very, very much. I learn from others, not only from Kh Sujin. So, we have to be careful and distinguish: when is there confidence, when is there clinging? As to Tep's question, does hearing have more impact than reading? Perhaps it is good for a change to do both. Reading makes us tired and then, when we listen, it is like a rest and we reflect perhaps more, although not necessarily so. We can also reflect when reading. My Thai friends said they need both and I also do both. I listen to Kh Sujin on my MP3, and tapes. Nina. 40088 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Ken O and Htoo, op 22-12-2004 07:52 schreef ashkenn2k op ashkenn2k@y...: > K: Where is the source saying that after javana cittas of an > unpleasant object, the tadaramana cittas is still kusala for a human. N: No, I did not say kusala cittas, but kusala vipaakacittas, thus, as Htoo says, avyaakata dhamma, indeterminate dhamma. But the whole question is above my head. If the kusala kamma that produced our rebirth-consciousness produces the tadaraamana-citta, it has to be kusala vipaaka. But, each time the object experienced in that process is unpleasant, the vipaakacittas that experience it are akusala vipaakacittas. The tadaarammanacittas that experience an unpleasant object cannot be kusala vipaaka. But sometimes it is better to leave a matter that we do not understand. Nina. 40089 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 0:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hi TG, just butting in , you had a dialogue with Sarah on eradication of false view. Maybe this could clarify somewhat. op 22-12-2004 03:34 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > TG: If all false views have been eliminated by a streamwinner, what are > greed, hatred, ignorance, conceit, restlessness, and the desires for either > fine > material or immaterial states based on ? > > "Bhikkhus, "I am" is a conceiving...'I am' is a perterbation...'I am' is a > palpatation...'I am' is a proliferation...'I am' is an involvement with > conceit; > 'I am this' is an involvement with conceit; 'I shall be' is an involvement > with conceit; 'I shall not be' is an involvement with conceit; I shall consist > of form' is an involvement with conceit..." It continues on. (The Buddha . > . > . Connected Discourse of the Buddha, vol. 2, pg. 1258 -- 1259.) Nina:I had a dialogue with Larry and I wrote: < We cling to feeling with lobha unaccompanied by wrong view, or with wrong view or with conceit. These three ways of clinging are the papañcas, proliferations. They slow down the process of liberation from the cycle. When we cling to feeling with wrong view we think that it is my feeling, that we possess feeling, that we can have absolute power over it. We do not see it as just a conditioned element.> Thus, even those who are ariyans not yet arahats, still have the I am or I shall be conceit. They cling to self, the importance of self without wrong view. See your sutta quote, and also the Vibhanga has many examples. And many other suttas. Nina. 40090 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 0:51pm Subject: RE: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Larry and Howard, Thanks for this. Herman: "Sound is hearing is consciousness is knowing." Hi Herman and Howard, L: My view is that sound can be perceived to arise external to my body, coming from "over there". H: I agree with you in part. But I think that the "location" of sound is a mental layer deduced / arrived at from many sensory events. To come to think in terms of a body and what is internal and external to it is a learnt differentiation. A bit of conjecture here, but I do not believe that newborns or even 3-month olds perceive in terms of inside and outside. But once having learnt this, it is very difficult to unlearn. (and possibly unnecessary) A bit of a story here. I am a very sound-based person. Many times I hear the most beautiful music as a background. When I try to actively listen to it, it disappears. I understand that this music is not external. Is it sound? Likewise, if there is active listening and there is no particular "external" sound going on, there is a ringing in the ears (good-old tinnitus). Again, not external. Kind Regards Herman Obviously sound cannot be perceived to be external to perception but as long as it is external to my body and the physical "heart base" is perceived to be the base of perception there is good reason to believe sound is indeed external to perception and therefore external to consciousness. However, that's probably not really an issue for satipatthana. But I would say "external to the body" is an essential factor. Below is the relevant section of the Satipatthana Sutta. "Mental object" is a translation of "dhamma". The commentary explains that "dhamma" here means the combination of the "physical and spiritual", contemplation of body being physical and contemplations of feeling and consciousness being spiritual. Or, alternatively, "dhamma" refers to the contemplation of the perception and formations khandhas. The fetters that arise dependent on external (to the body) object and internal sense organ seem to be the heart of this particular contemplation. I appended a link to the commentary at the end. Larry ----------------------------- 3. The Six Internal and the Six External Sense-bases "And, further, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the six internal and the six external sense-bases. "How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the six internal and the six external sense-bases? "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu understands the eye and material forms and the fetter that arises dependent on both (eye and forms); he understands how the arising of the non-arisen fetter comes to be; he understands how the abandoning of the arisen fetter comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned fetter comes to be. ...... He understands consciousness and mental objects and the fetter that arises dependent on both (consciousness and mental objects); he understands how the arising of the non-arisen fetter comes to be; he understands how the abandoning of the arisen fetter comes to be; and he understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned fetter comes to be. "Thus he lives contemplating mental object in mental objects, internally, or he lives contemplating mental object in mental objects, externally, or he lives contemplating mental object in mental objects, internally and externally. He lives contemplating origination-things in mental objects, or he lives contemplating dissolution-things in mental objects, or he lives contemplating origination-and-dissolution-things in mental objects. Or his mind is established with the thought: 'Mental objects exist,' to the extent necessary for just knowledge and remembrance and he lives independent and clings to naught in the world. "Thus, indeed, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating mental object in the mental objects of the six internal and the six external sense-bases." -------------------------------- Commentary: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22429 Yahoo! Groups Links 40091 From: Tep Sastri Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:46pm Subject: Re: Meditation Dear Nina, I have noticed your tireless answering to several mails almost every day. So I think I should always try to make my messages as concise as possible and stay away from asking any unnecessary question. N: Clinging to sense objects is an important condition for dosa: this arises when things are not as we want them to be. When I come to think of it, when whatever appears is seen as only a conditioned nama or rupa, one will mind less and less whether the object is welcome or not. It is conditioned already. Let be the heat, the cold, the unpleasant word one hears. T: Most worldlings (including me) are not accustomed to discerning all rupa and nama as 'conditioned' and 'not-self'. I think that's why it is so easy for them to get deluded and fail to mindfully discern an arising dhamma in a given moment. N: Think of the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint. The monk who heard unpleasant speech realized: this is only the impingement of sound on the earsense. Whatever happens has to happen, but for worldlings it is difficult to practise, don't you think? T: Yes, Nina, it has been extremely difficult for me to summon both mindfulness and understanding at the instant when, say, a sound is sensed, and let go of it without clinging (knowing clearly that it is only a sound arising, nothing more). I have no idea how many billion times more I have to make mental noting like this before it finally sticks. Do you have any helpful 'tips' ? N: Sure, the suttas can make us consider our faults and vices. Take the anumana sutta. We shall think twice before criticizing others. T: The anumana sutta talks about the 'evil things' that should be dispelled (e.g. having evil desires and submerged in them; being crafty and fraudulent; overcome by anger, cursing and angry with a grudge; praising oneself and disparaging others, etc.). But my online copy probably excludes the akusala kamma vipaka of criticizing others. Could you please fill in the blank for me? N: I like to listen first to your input about doubt and how it manifests in any situation. Meanwhile I also reflect about it. T: I have skeptical doubt when I read some suttas that seem to contradict each other. I also have skeptical doubt about some steps of the anapanasati meditation, e.g. as described in MN 118 and AN X.60. I have doubt about my Sila, Samadhi and Panna too. I think some of my doubts are caused by "inappropriate attention" to the dhamma in question. Kindest regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 22-12-2004 01:04 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > It may take incredibly long time before we can be free from this kind of > > defilement for good. Is it true that one has to become Anagami in order > > to eradicate dosa? > N: Yes. But the coarse dosa wears away when someone becomes a sotapanna and > a sakadagami. The reason is that there is at these stages a lessening of > clinging to sense objects. Clinging to sense objects is an important > condition for dosa: this arises when things are not as we want them to be. > When I come to think of it, when whatever appears is seen as only a > conditioned nama or rupa, one will mind less and less whether the object is > welcome or not. It is conditioned already. Let be the heat, the cold, the > unpleasant word one hears. Think of the Discourse on the Elephant's > Footprint. The monk who heard unpleasant speech realized: this is only the > impingement of sound on the earsense. Whatever happens has to happen, but > for worldlings it is difficult to practise, don't you think? > T: Talking about 'Dhamma as the refuge', here is my favorite quote from > > DN 16: > N: This is also one of my favorite ones. And it is repeated in many other > suttas, such as the Parinibbana sutta. > > T: I am so glad to tell you that your goal is also my goal. Precisely, I > > want to develop strong sati and sampajanna in every moment to "help > > me to have more detachment from whatever is experienced through > > the six doors", like you have said. I think MN 149 [Maha- salayatanika > > Sutta] explains how we can achieve such a goal. > N: I like this sutta because it deals with eye, visible object and seeing, > etc. About all common realities. I like this, because we do not have to go > far to develop understanding. And in many suttas the same is explained. > > T: ...Yes, when there is a strong anusaya, especially > > the ignorance latent tendency, it is difficult to know fine errors. We need > > a capable teacher to help us discover fine errors, I guess. Otherwise, > > can we start developing concentration (samadhi) first, and when it is > > strong enough, use it as the basis to develop wisdom as stated in the > > suttas? > N: I think that for samatha and vipassana sati sampajañña has to be > stressed. Really, many dhammas have to be understood, also in the case of > samatha. > > N: As for me, when I think: how much progress do I make, it conditions > > clinging and also aversion. .... > > T: Good points, Nina. But those akusala thoughts, being the kind of > > gross errors that we can readily see, should tend toward diminution as > > our wisdom develops (through training in the Dhamma) and we > > become more and more effective in the error identification and > > correction, using the suttas and/or a teacher as guidance. > N: Sure, the suttas can make us consider our faults and vices. Take the > anumana sutta. We shall think twice before critizing others. > > T: Out of the five hindrances, the last three are what I have trouble with > > most of the time. And they quite often "manifest" themselves in any > > situation. During a meditation (samatha or vipassana) they often arise > > closely together. How about starting with skeptical doubt (vicikiccha)? > N: It is a good idea and I think that it does not matter in what order we > talk about them. > I like to listen first to your input about doubt and how it manifests in any > situation. Meanwhile I also reflect about it. > Nina. 40092 From: Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 0:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. In a message dated 12/22/2004 12:30:59 PM Pacific Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: Thus, even those who are ariyans not yet arahats, still have the I am or I shall be conceit. They cling to self, the importance of self without wrong view. See your sutta quote, and also the Vibhanga has many examples. And many other suttas. Nina. Hi Nina Glad to have you aboard! What this means to me is that what is being called "wrong view" is really the very gross "wrong beliefs" that might be held to. Such as believing in a permanent self or soul. And maybe that's technically the correct way to consider wrong view. I would consider that the gross outer layer of wrong view. I would consider the type of thing you wrote above to be wrong view also. To distinguish the two, I would consider the gross wrong view to be "wrong belief." To me, any latent or active tendency that leads one to see incorrectly is "wrong view" based on ignorance/delusion. I'm looking at the term "wrong-view" as "seeing things incorrectly." If we want to call it based on conceit, or based on view...its of little concern to me. The main thing is that it is incorrect seeing and it is not fully eliminated until arahatship. Conceit means that phenomena are still be viewed falsely. I would think that it is the "viewing falsely" that causes conceit 'I am' and not the other way around. Although they would lend mutual support to each other in continuing the level of delusional processing of experience. Take care Nina TG 40093 From: Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:14pm Subject: RE: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Herman, I agree with your reservations about the externality of sound and came up with a few of my own. For example, what is the external mind base external to, the internal mind base? If a sound is external to the ear, what and where is hearing consciousness? It is nama, so neither external nor internal. Hearing consciousness is the only sound we know. However, there is a way to see an object external to consciousness. We can see a visible object is external to touch consciousness, therefore we reach. We can see that someone is not conscious of what we are conscious of. On a more complex level, we can listen to the same recording many times and hear something different every time. But I agree these are complex perceptual and evaluative processes; not bare sense consciousness. This sense of externality is the primary validation for a separate self but without a sense of self I would think spacial relationships are still valid. But who knows? Maybe not. Relationship is a concept. [Oops, sorry, can of worms] In the Satipatthana Sutta the main point of the "dhamma" of external and internal sense bases is that the fetters arise dependent on these bases. Externality doesn't seem to be an issue but dependent arising is. Larry 40094 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:01pm Subject: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG) -> Sarah --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Sarah > > I've got to condense the below into a few responses... Friend TG (and Sarah), I agree with your points and think that they are very well made. I had a similar discussion with Sarah a while back, though it focused on jealousy, and I can sense the same frustration in you that I had back then. You might as well give it up! ;-)) Sarah is not going to budge on this issue no matter what! ;-)) She has accumulated a lengthy list of the supposed fruits of sotapanna, from rather odd interpretations of commentary notes, which doesn't match the suttas. My opinion is that if something in the commentaries doesn't match what is in the suttas- then throw it out; but it appears to me that Sarah has the opposite approach- throw out the suttas if they don't match the commentaries. Using the suttas as a guide, I have argued that being a sotapanna is not nearly as difficult as Sarah claims it is. I think that there are quite a few sotapannas on this list! Maybe Sarah wants to be on the side of caution to guard against conceit, I'm not sure. Is that a British thing? ;-)) (just kidding). Metta, James 40095 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 9:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 80- Volition/cetanaa (j) Hello Phil, op 22-12-2004 15:40 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: >> When we abstain from ill deeds we give others the opportunity to >> live in safety and without fear. > > This is very nice. I certainly think of the benefits I will receive > from abstention and rarely think in the above terms. N: It helps to think of others with metta and compassion. Then there are more conditions for abstention, it can come more naturally. Ph: Everytime we abstain, does it condition another moment of > abstention? Can kusala citta that is an abstention be natural > decisive support condition for a later citta? N: Yes, all good deeds are accumulated. Good tendencies are also accumulated, not only bad ones. Ph: . I remember wondering why there wasn't a class > of abstention included that wasn't conditioned by following precepts, > and wasn't conditioned by social norms, but instead arose from basic > wisdom having been developed. i.e from simply having come to learn > that doing something leads to unpleasant results in the longer run > despite pleasure in the short run. N: Right understanding of dhammas helps most for all kinds of kusala. Your own confort and pleasure will matter less, because all are ephemeral dhammas. But there are also the latent tendencies and these are powerful. Kusala and akusala alternate in our life, we are in the cycle. Nina. 40096 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 10:00pm Subject: Re: And then there was hearing! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > >There are stories of people in the past who became at > > least Stream-winner simply by listening to the Buddha's lectures. > > Yes, though the way all 500 of them become enlightened in some > cases strikes me as pretty...what's the right word...well, far- > fetched for the purpose of inspiring listeners rather than describing > a believable process of enlightenment. Just my opinion, of course. > > >========= Dear Phil, Much more than 500 sometimes. And also lakkhs of devas would listen to the talks given by the Buddha and touch vipassana or become sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, or arahant depending on their parami. If we compare with people like ourselves - who are deeply covered with avijja, almost devoid of any understanding- then it seems hard. But we are talking about beings with the parami to be born when a Buddha was still alive, and even have be able to meet him. They had developed the parami and wisdom for aeons. At this time their are only neyya and padaparama beings left - those who either cannot attain in this life, or who can only attain if they can hear much details of true Dhamma, consider wisely and practice correctly. Very rare. Robertk 40097 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 22, 2004 11:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Hi Htoo I need the source of where you get this information from. because I need to look at it closely and in what context it is talking from before this conclusion can be based as factual. A human birth does not mean all the objects are kusala vipakas. A human birth only means it is due to kusala kamma. Even though what we experience as vipaka objects are the same as the vipaka is the kusala of our birth as human, it does not mean they should be in the same league. A kusala birth can also experience a akusala object. If in the javana citta, it is akusala, the vipaka will be akusala because tadarammana is the link between the sense and mind door process. The vipaka object will condition the object of the next mind door object. Please provide me the source even in Pali. Thanks Ken O 40098 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 0:18am Subject: Re: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG) -> Sarah Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > TG: The Suttas describe a Stream-winner in three main different ways from what I can recollect... > > 1) The most basic and perhaps most often way is someone who has full confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha (they are doing the right thing) and "spotless virtues." > > 2) Someone who had eliminated -- personality-belief, doubt, and attachment to rites and rituals. > > 3) Someone who has -- gained the spotless vision that "whatsoever is of the nature to arise, must also be of the nature to cease." …. S: Thankyou for the good summary. This full confidence in the Triple Gem, the eradication (or elimination) of doubt, personality belief (and thereby all other wrong views), attachment to rites and rituals and spotless vision of impermanence are not temporary or partial in anyway. S: See these messages from: Conceit vs Wrong View of Self (Sakkaya-ditthi) 11868, 20141, 22649, 22765, 25213 From a message of Mike’s http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22649 From Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary: ”sakkáya-ditthi 'personality-belief', is the first of the 10 fetters (samyojana). It is entirely abandoned only on reaching the path of Stream-winning (sotápatti-magga; s. ariya-puggala).” ….. S: As you’ve agreed, all other wrong views depend on sakkaya-ditthi and when it is eradicated, so are they: From SN 41:3 Isidatta (2), Bodhi transl: “Now, householder, are you asking thus: ‘Venerable elder, there are various views that arise in the world: “The world is eternal”….- these as well as the sixty-two speculative views mentioned in the Brahmajaala. Now when what exists do these views come to be? When what is nonexistent do these views not come to be?’ “ “Yes, venerable sir.” “As to the various views that arise in the world, householder, ‘the world is eternal’….-These as well as the sixty two speculative views mentioned in the Brahmajaala: when there is identity view, these views come to be; when there is no identity view, these views do not come to be.” **** >the third is the key of what a Stream-winner is. They basically have come to a complete understanding of the principles of Dependent Origination. By understanding Dependent Origination, they no longer "believe" in a self. The principle of Dependent Origination >makes a "self" an >impossibility so they don't have "self-belief <…> >have no attachments to rites and rituals because rites and rituals are generally "superstitious" and not based on >Dependent Origination. …. S: And here you seem to be stating the case beautifully! No more self view, no more doubts,no more adherence to wrong practices etc. …. > None of this is to say, or even suggest, that all false->views are permanently eradicated. …. S: You mean you don’t believe the elimination of attachment to rites and rituals, the elimination of self view and the perfect confidence in the Triple Gem suggests any complete eradication of false views? Please also read the chapter 16 on Wrong View (di.t.thi) in ‘Cetasikas’. ….. >I don't think there is any Sutta that will make that point > either, but would love to see it if there is. …. S: TG, I think again it depends how one reads the suttas. For example, I discussed SN 22:89 with a friend where the non-returner Khemaka explains the lurking tendency of mana (conceit) remains. ‘This is mine’ refers to craving,taking objects as belonging to self. ‘This am I’ refers to mana and ‘This is my self’ refers to the personality view, sakkaya ditthi, identified with the 5 khandhas. . See#25213 referred to above for my comments. Here ‘this am I’ refers to mana. See also the suttas in Sotaapattisa.myutta, like SN 55:26 (6) Anathapi.n.dika (1). Here Ven Sariputta addresses Anathapindika, a sotapanna at the time: “You, householder, do not have that wrong view which the uninstructed worldling possesses because of which the latter…is reborn in the plane of misery…in hell. And you have right view. As you consider within yourself that right view, your pains may subside on the spot. “You, householder, do not have that wrong intention….etc..And you have right intention etc. Anathapindika’s pains subsided on the spot and he served Ven Sariputta who thanked him: “When one has faith in the Tathagata, Unshakable and well established (acalaa suppati.t.thitaa) And good conduct built on virtue, Dear to the noble ones and praised; “When one has confidence in the Sangha And view that has been rectified (ujubhuuta~nca dassana.m) They say that one is not poor, That one’s life is not vain. “Therefore the person of intelligence, Remembering the Buddha’s Teaching, Should be devoted to faith and virtue, To confidence and vision of the Dhamma (pasaada.m dhammadassana.m).” …. The Buddha later praises Sariputta’s wisdom and his analysis of stream-entry. Metta, Sarah p.s I haven't addressed all your points, just those requesting an asap - others after the holiday wekend probably. ========= 40099 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 80- Volition/cetanaa (j) Hi Phil & All, --- Philip wrote: > I read somewhere about different kinds of abstentions <…> > I wonder if you know the classification of abstentions that I am referring to... …. S: I think you have CMA. See ch11 #6 the Abstinences (virati). BB’s Guide refers to: 1. Natural Abstinence (sampattavirati). [this is the one based on social norms etc] 2. Abstinence by undertaking precepts (samaadaanavirati) 3. Abstinence by eradication (samucchedavirati) Like you, I think the understanding of the eightfold path factors is vey subtle and can only develop with development of satipatthana. Take Right speech (sammaavaacaa) as an example This does not refer to any wholesome speech with metta, saddha, hiri and ottapa. For it to be an eightfold (or sixfold) path factor, it must be the moment of virati (abstention) from unwholesome speech which would otherwise arise at that moment. In other words, it’s the moment of abstention accompanying right understanding, right awareness and so on which ‘guard’ the sense door momentarily so that one is not overcome by attachment, aversion or ignorance. Only this kind of Right Speech or abstention with understanding leads to the eradication of wrong speech, though of course all wholesome cittas accumulate as you say. This is why Right Understanding is always the forerunner. Looking at the commentary briefly, it classifies Right speech as fourfold: a) refraining from false speech b) refraining from divisive speech c) refraining from unkind speech d) refraining from frivolous chatter I also liked the sutta (AN, 8s, IV,#9, Outcomes of Merit) about the various gifts, including that of giving up wrong speech, which give others the freedom from fear, hostility and oppression. Of course, as it says in the sutta, by offering these gifts, we will also enjoy some ‘immeasurable freedom’ too. Of course, this isn’t by thinking of our good result, but by having confidence in valuing the others’ welfare at such times. I was also reminded by the earlier AN sutta in the series where it said that the trifling result of harsh speech was ‘unpleasant noise’ and the result of ‘frivolous speech’ was ‘unacceptable speech’ and so on. No one likes hearing unpleasant noises, but it helps a lot when there is just a brief moment of awareness. As Nina reminded Tep, in the Discourse on the Elephant’s Footprint in MN, “the monk who heard unpleasant sound realized: this is only the impingement of sound on the earsense.”. Yes, sometimes, as Nina also said, the sounds may not even be unpleasant, such as when visiting the doctor, but we can still have have lots of aversion. Just ‘sound’ and then so many stories or even music for some through the mind-door! I appreciate and find I need these reminders a lot.Thank you for raising them. Metta, Sarah p.s So glad to hear your happy computer news for your holiday. So glad you can listen now to the recordings. Do keep sharing snippets. Connie, Chris & Azita –MP3s sent off in the last week. Pls also share snippets and comments with us when you receive them. ================================ 40100 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:29am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 81- Volition/cetanaa (k) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** Síla is abstaining from ill deeds which are committed through body or speech, but apart from abstaining from ill deeds there are many other aspects of síla (1). When one abstains from killing it is kusala síla. But also when there is no opportunity for killing there can be kusala síla: someone can make the resolution to spare the lives of all living beings, even of the smallest insects he can hardly see. Even so, someone can make the resolution to abstain from other kinds of akusala kamma, even when the opportunity to commit them has not arisen. For example, when a person has found out that intoxicating drinks have a bad effect, kusala cetanå may take the resolution to refrain in the future from intoxicating drinks. The wholesome intention at such a moment can be a condition for abstaining later on when there is an opportunity for drinking. However, kusala citta is not self, it arises when there are conditions for it. A moment later akusala citta may arise and our good intentions are forgotten. We may be annoyed that we do not live up to our good intentions, but we should remember that kusala citta and akusala citta arise because of their own conditions. *** 1) The Visuddhimagga I, 17 and following, describes many aspects of síla. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40101 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:45am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: And then there was Hi RobK, Your post suggests a number of things I would like to draw out further or clarify, if I could. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > >There are stories of people in the past who became at > > least Stream-winner simply by listening to the Buddha's lectures. > > Yes, though the way all 500 of them become enlightened in some > cases strikes me as pretty...what's the right word...well, far- > fetched for the purpose of inspiring listeners rather than describing > a believable process of enlightenment. Just my opinion, of course. > > >========= Dear Phil, Much more than 500 sometimes. And also lakkhs of devas would listen to the talks given by the Buddha and touch vipassana or become sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, or arahant depending on their parami. If we compare with people like ourselves - who are deeply covered with avijja, almost devoid of any understanding- then it seems hard. But we are talking about beings with the parami to be born when a Buddha was still alive, and even have be able to meet him. They had developed the parami and wisdom for aeons. At this time their are only neyya and padaparama beings left - those who either cannot attain in this life, or who can only attain if they can hear much details of true Dhamma, consider wisely and practice correctly. Very rare. Robertk ==== If I understand correctly, in the Theravadan scheme of things, there is no difference between beings in the length of time they have wandered on. Is there an explanation for the differences between beings? Why are some deeply covered with avijja, while some develop the parami in the selfsame aeons? What accounts for the differences in accumulations? If all being is a matter of conditionality, can you say something about the how and why of differences? Kind Regards Herman 40102 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:16am Subject: RE: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi Larry, I think this is a very sound :-) post. You highlight issues that are very, very big and not to be taken lightly. When you write "This sense of externality is the primary validation for a separate self" you are writing the introduction to what, with all the working out, would amount to an encyclopedia in its own right. "Relationship as concept", I feel a few chapters coming on. Where to begin, I don't know, but I'm happy to join in :-) Kind Regards Herman PS I know you like the Vis., how do you reckon it relates to Upatissa's Vimutti-Magga? Hi Herman, I agree with your reservations about the externality of sound and came up with a few of my own. For example, what is the external mind base external to, the internal mind base? If a sound is external to the ear, what and where is hearing consciousness? It is nama, so neither external nor internal. Hearing consciousness is the only sound we know. However, there is a way to see an object external to consciousness. We can see a visible object is external to touch consciousness, therefore we reach. We can see that someone is not conscious of what we are conscious of. On a more complex level, we can listen to the same recording many times and hear something different every time. But I agree these are complex perceptual and evaluative processes; not bare sense consciousness. This sense of externality is the primary validation for a separate self but without a sense of self I would think spacial relationships are still valid. But who knows? Maybe not. Relationship is a concept. [Oops, sorry, can of worms] In the Satipatthana Sutta the main point of the "dhamma" of external and internal sense bases is that the fetters arise dependent on these bases. Externality doesn't seem to be an issue but dependent arising is. Larry 40103 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: And then there was --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi RobK, > > > > > >========= > Dear Phil, > Much more than 500 sometimes. And also lakkhs of devas would listen > to the talks given by the Buddha and touch vipassana or become > sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, or arahant depending on their parami. > If we compare with people like ourselves - who are deeply covered > with avijja, almost devoid of any understanding- then it seems hard. > But we are talking about beings with the parami to be born when a > Buddha was still alive, and even have be able to meet him. They had > developed the parami and wisdom for aeons. > At this time their are only neyya and padaparama beings left - those > who either cannot attain in this life, or who can only attain if > they can hear much details of true Dhamma, consider wisely and > practice correctly. Very rare. > Robertk > > ==== > > If I understand correctly, in the Theravadan scheme of things, there is > no difference between beings in the length of time they have wandered > on. Is there an explanation for the differences between beings? Why are > some deeply covered with avijja, while some develop the parami in the > selfsame aeons? What accounts for the differences in accumulations? If > all being is a matter of conditionality, can you say something about the > how and why of differences? > ============= Dear Herman, Even within this life we can see how at times we accumulate good qualities and at times the reverse. It is happening all the time. The difference between beings is because of kamma and accumulations. In the texts there is a common phrase "She/he too having made the resolve under former Buddhas and heaping up good of aeon enduring efficacy in this and that state of becoming, being born in fortunate circumstances took birth in this buddha sasana....." and then listened to the buddha and attained. It was often no straight path: The nun Isidasi became an arahant and recalled her past lives* http://people.westminstercollege.edu/faculty/mmarkowski/212/4/isidasi .htm "I learned of my own last seven births; I shall relate to you the actions of which this misfortune is the fruit and result; listen to it attentively. In the city of Erakaccha I was a wealthy goldsmith. Intoxicated by pride in my youth, I had sexual intercourse with another's wife. Having fallen from there, I was cooked in hell; I cooked for a long time; and rising up from there I entered the womb of a female monkey. A great monkey, leader of the herd, castrated me when I was seven days old; this was the fruit of the action of having seduced another's wife. I died in the Sindhava forest and entered the womb of a one-eyed, lame she-goat. As a goat I was castrated, worm-eaten, tail-less, unfit, because of having seduced another's wife. Next I was born of a cow belonging to a cattle-dealer; a lac-red calf. I was castrated after twelve months and drew the plough, pulled the cart, and became blind, tail-less, unfit, because of having seduced another's wife. Then I was born of a household slave in the street, neither as a woman or a man, because of having seduced another's wife. In my thirtieth year I died; I was born as a girl in a carter's family which was poor and much in debt. To satisfy the creditors, I was sold to a caravan leader and dragged off, wailing, from my home. Then in my sixteenth year when I had arrived at marriageable age, his son, Giridasa by name, took me as a wife. But he had another wife, virtuous and possessed of good qualities, who was affectionate towards her husband; with her I stirred up enmity. This [my misfortunes] were fruit of that last action, that men rejected me though I served like a slave girl. "" This is only the seven births prior to becoming an arahant- before this she had made much good accumulations under prior Buddhas. Sometimes one could have much parami and even become a monk but make bad kamma :from Dhammapada commentary http://www.vipassana.info/l.htm Verses 334-337 The Story of Kapila the Fish While residing at the Jetavana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verses (334), (335), (336) and (337) of this book, with reference to a fish with a lovely, golden colour and a stinking mouth. During the time of Kassapa Buddha, there was a bhikkhu named Kapila, who was very learned in the Pitakas. Because of his great learning he gained much fame and fortune; he also became very conceited and was full of contempt for other bhikkhus. When other bhikkhus pointed out to him, what was proper or not proper he invariably retorted, "How much do you know?" implying that he knew much more than those bhikkhus. In course of time, all good bhikkhus shunned him and only the bad ones gathered round him. On one sabbath day, while the bhikkhus were reciting the Fundamental Precepts for the bhikkhus (i.e., the Patimokkha) Kapila said, "There is no such thing as Sutta, Abhidhamma, or Vinaya. It makes no difference whether you have a chance to listen to the Patimokkha or not, " etc., and left the congregation of the bhikkhus. Thus, Kapila was a hindrance to the development and growth of the Teaching (Sasana). For this evil deed, Kapila had to suffer in niraya between the time of Kassapa Buddha and Gotama Buddha. Later, he was reborn as a fish in the Aciravati River. That fish, as mentioned above, had a very beautiful golden body, but his mouth had a very horrid, offensive smell. One day, that fish was caught by some fishermen, and because it was so beautiful, they took it in a boat to the king. The king, in his turn took the fish to the Buddha. When the fish opened its mouth, the horrid and offensive smell spread all around. The king then asked the Buddha why such a beautiful fish should have such a horrid and offensive smell. To the king and the audience, the Buddha explained, "O king! During the time of Kassapa Buddha there was a very learned bhikkhu who taught the Dhamma to others. Because of that good deed, when he was reborn in another existence, even as a fish, he was endowed with a golden body. But that bhikkhu was very greedy, proud and very contemptuous of others; he also disregarded the Disciplines and abused other bhikkhus. For these evil deeds, he was reborn in niraya, and now, he has become a beautiful fish with a mouth that stinks." The Buddha then turned to the fish and asked whether it knew where it would be going in its next existence. The fish answered that it would have to go again to niraya and it was filled with great despair. As predicted, on its death the fish was reborn in niraya, to undergo another term of continuous torment."""endquote. It is very hard to do good and so for all this accountable number of aeons we have been in samsara- sometimes as deva, sometimes as human, and often as animal or hell being, or peta. RobertK 40104 From: Philip Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:42am Subject: Re: And then there was hearing! Hi Rob > Dear Phil, > Much more than 500 sometimes. And also lakkhs of devas would listen > to the talks given by the Buddha and touch vipassana or become > sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, or arahant depending on their parami. > If we compare with people like ourselves - who are deeply covered > with avijja, almost devoid of any understanding- then it seems hard. > But we are talking about beings with the parami to be born when a > Buddha was still alive, and even have be able to meet him. They had > developed the parami and wisdom for aeons. Interesting. "The parami to be born when a Buddha was still alive." I'd never thought of that before. > At this time their are only neyya and padaparama beings left - those > who either cannot attain in this life, or who can only attain if > they can hear much details of true Dhamma, consider wisely and > practice correctly. Very rare. I see. Thanks Rob. Always appreciated. Metta, Phil 40105 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Ken O, Thanks for your reply. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O wrote: Hi Htoo I need the source of where you get this information from. because I need to look at it closely and in what context it is talking from before this conclusion can be based as factual. A human birth does not mean all the objects are kusala vipakas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Where did you get this idea? Did I say like this before. Human rebirth means 'manussa patisandhi'. Manussa patisandhi means the first citta in that given life is one of 8 mahavipaka cittas. And it may still be 'ahetuka kusala vipaka upekkha santirana citta' if there is reduction of faculties. Anyway all these 9 cittas are vipaka cittas. All are kusala vipaka cittas. One is ahetuka and 8 are sahetuka. All are vipaka. Not kusala. But they all must be 'kusala vipaka citta'. This is about patisandhi citta. If bhavanga cittas the same applies. And so does cuti citta. You said, 'all the objects'. I am not clear what you said of that. Do you mean 'arammana'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O wrote: A human birth only means it is due to kusala kamma. Even though what we experience as vipaka objects are the same as the vipaka is the kusala of our birth as human, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have no idea what you are talking on 'vipaka object'. What is 'vipaka object'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hen O wrote: it does not mean they should be in the same league. A kusala birth can also experience a akusala object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not clear. What is 'a akusala object'? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O wrote: If in the javana citta, it is akusala, the vipaka will be akusala because tadarammana is the link between the sense and mind door process. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Why? Is this your assumption? Or is there any supporting evidence for this. 1. if javana is akusala, the vipaka will be akusala 2. tadarammana is the link between the sense and mind door process. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ken O wrote: The vipaka object will condition the object of the next mind door object. Please provide me the source even in Pali. Thanks Ken O ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I think as 'The vipaka object' is not clear to me, you will have to explain it first. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40106 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread (196) Dear Dhamma Friends, Arammana or object serves as a supporter of a consciousness while vatthu or base serves as a ground for consciousness. Vatthu will be discussed later. There are 6 arammanas or 6 objects. They are 1. ruparammana or visual object 2. saddarammana or sound object 3. gandharammana or smell object 4. rasarammana or taste object 5. photthabbarammana or touch object 6. dhammarammana or mind-object The first 5 objects are all rupa dhamma. The 6th object is a mixture. 1. vanna or colour of different brightness serves as visual object. 2. sadda or sound serves as auditory object. 3. gandha or smell serves as aromatic object. 4. rasa or taste serves as gustatory object. 5. pathavi or consistency serves as tangible object 6. tejo or temperature serves as tangible object 7. vayo or resiliency serves as tangible object So the 1st 5 physical senses are actually these 7 paramattha rupas. Pathavi, tejo, and vayo serve as tangible object. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40107 From: upasaka_howard Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: And then there was Hi, Herman (and Robert) - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi RobK, > > Your post suggests a number of things I would like to draw out further > or clarify, if I could. > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > > > > >There are stories of people in the past who became at > > > least Stream-winner simply by listening to the Buddha's > lectures. > > > > Yes, though the way all 500 of them become enlightened in some > > cases strikes me as pretty...what's the right word...well, far- > > fetched for the purpose of inspiring listeners rather than > describing > > a believable process of enlightenment. Just my opinion, of course. > > > > >========= > Dear Phil, > Much more than 500 sometimes. And also lakkhs of devas would listen > to the talks given by the Buddha and touch vipassana or become > sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, or arahant depending on their parami. > If we compare with people like ourselves - who are deeply covered > with avijja, almost devoid of any understanding- then it seems hard. > But we are talking about beings with the parami to be born when a > Buddha was still alive, and even have be able to meet him. They had > developed the parami and wisdom for aeons. > At this time their are only neyya and padaparama beings left - those > who either cannot attain in this life, or who can only attain if > they can hear much details of true Dhamma, consider wisely and > practice correctly. Very rare. > Robertk > > ==== > > If I understand correctly, in the Theravadan scheme of things, there is > no difference between beings in the length of time they have wandered > on. Is there an explanation for the differences between beings? Why are > some deeply covered with avijja, while some develop the parami in the > selfsame aeons? What accounts for the differences in accumulations? If > all being is a matter of conditionality, can you say something about the > how and why of differences? > > Kind Regards > > Herman ============================= Your question is very interesting. Here's my attempt at an "answer": Were it the case that beings were created (out of nothing) at some point in time by some force or creator god or whatever, then the simple answer would be that beings were created with differing (initial) dispositions, inclinations, and characteristics, and their own actions and choices took it from there. However, without the assumption of initial creation, I think the question becomes meaningless. One might say "Well, a being is as s/he is due to the events that have befallen that being and his/her reaction to them." But then the question is what led to those events befalling that person in particular, and why did s/he react as s/he did. That gets answered by "kamma", but that simply pushes the same question further back in time, and since there is no initial time, there will be no ultimate answer, and one ends up saying simply that "It is what it is." With metta, Howard 40108 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:37am Subject: Dhamma Thread (197) Dear Dhamma Friends, In arammana matter, 5 physical senses are all paramattha rupas. 1. vanna or colour is for eye-consciousness 2. sadda or sound is for ear-consciousness 3. gandha or smell is for nose-consciousness 4. rasa or taste is for tongue-consciousness 5. photthabbarammana includes three paramattha rupas. They are pathavi or consistency of materials, tejo or temperature of materials, and vayo or resiliency of materials. 6. dhammarammana includes 6 separate dhammas. Dhammarammanas are a) 5 pasada rupas b) 16 sukhuma rupas c) 89 cittas d) 52 cetasikas e) 1 nibbana f) 0 panatti dhamma 5 pasada rupas are 1. cakkhu pasada, 2.sota pasada, 3.ghana pasada, 4.jivha pasada, and 5.kaya pasada. All these are not object of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching but for intellectual touching or thinking. 16 sukhuma rupas are 1. apo or cohesiveness (water) 2. purisatta bhava rupa (maleness) 3. itthatta bhava rupa (femaleness) 4. hadaya rupa (hadaya vatthu or heart-base) 5. jivita rupa (life-faculty) 6. ahara rupa (nutriment) 7. pariccheda rupa (akasa or space) 8. kaya vinatti rupa (gesture) 9. vaci vinatti rupa (speech/voice) 10.rupa lahuta rupa (lightness of rupa) 11.rupa muduta rupa (pliability of rupa) 12.rupa kammannata rupa ( workableness of rupa) 13.upacaya rupa (initial formation of rupa) 14.santati rupa ( sustained formation of rupa) 15.jarata rupa (wearing of rupa or getting oldness of rupa ) 16.aniccata rupa (disappearance of rupa) c) 89 cittas d) 52 cetasikas e) 1 nibbana f) 0 pannatti dhamma All these have been explained in previous posts under Dhamma Thread heading. So 5 pasada rupas, 16 sukhuma rupas, 89 cittas, 52 cetasikas, 1 nibbana and 0 pannatti dhamma can serve as an object. It is mind- sense- object. It is dhammarammana. (5+16+89+52+1+1= 164 objects at each vithi vara ) May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40109 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hi TG, op 23-12-2004 02:11 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > > I'm looking at the term "wrong-view" as "seeing things incorrectly." If we > want to call it based on conceit, or based on view...its of little concern to > me. The main thing is that it is incorrect seeing and it is not fully > eliminated until arahatship. N: Yes, wrong view is a distorted view of realities. TG: Conceit means that phenomena are still be viewed falsely. I would think that > it is the "viewing falsely" that causes conceit 'I am' and not the other way > around. Although they would lend mutual support to each other in continuing > the level of delusional processing of experience. N: For the non-ariyan ditthi, wrong view and mana, conceit, arise alternately, and wrong view supports conceit. There are many degrees of conceit, coarse and more subtle. The arahat has eradicated the most subtle conceit. Now, to understand the difference I would look at these two cetasikas that have different characteristics. Wrong view: A person who is about to die, may wrestle with annihilation belief and eternity view. He cannot accept that his life is all over, there must be something, a soul that lasts and continues unto the next life. This is wrong view. He fails to see the Middle Way: his last citta falls away and conditions the arising of the rebirthconsciousness. His next life is conditioned by this life that is about to end. All good tendencies and bad tendencies of this life are accumulated in each citta and go on to the next life from moment to moment. Conceit: you compare yourself with others, but also when you do not compare there can be conceit. You give yourself a pat on the back, I did this very well. Or you are praised: how good I am. I wrote a good post. You let the banner fly (Expositor). It has self-praise as function, its proximate cause is greed dissociated from wrong view, it should be considered as a lunacy. It is all a lunacy. See the sobering list of the Book of Analysis (Ch 17, §832): pride of gain, of being respected, of erudition, of intelligence, etc. For us worldlings, it is hard to see the different characteristics of ditthi and mana, they can arise closely one afther the other. Actually, when there is right awareness and understanding when they appear there will be no doubt. But insight has to be developed stage by stage. In the suttas we often read: this is mine, eta.m mama, this am I , esoham asmi, this is myself, eso me attaa. The Book of Analysis and the Co explain these as: lobha, conceit and ditthi. See B.B. Root of Existence, p. 10. Asmi mana is one form of conceit. There are many forms. B.B. explains the many forms of wrong view, such as personality belief, with reference to each of the five khandhas (p. 12). S./N. III, Khandhavagga, Middle Fifty, § 89, Khema, here conceit is explained very well. Dasaka asks Khemaka whether he is an arahat. Khemaka explains. Samyutta Nikaya XXII.89 Khemaka Sutta About Khemaka Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Friend, concerning these five clinging-aggregates described by the Blessed One -- i.e., form as a clinging-aggregate... feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate: With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, there is nothing I assume to be self or belonging to self, and yet I am not an arahant. With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.'" .... Then Ven. Khemaka, leaning on his staff, went to the elder monks and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with them. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, the elder monks said to him, "Friend Khemaka, this 'I am' of which you speak: what do you say 'I am'? Do you say, 'I am form,' or do you say, 'I am something other than form'? Do you say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' or do you say, 'I am something other than consciousness''? This 'I am' of which you speak: what do you say 'I am'?" ... "In the same way, friends, it's not that I say 'I am form,' nor do I say 'I am other than form.' It's not that I say, 'I am feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness,' nor do I say, 'I am something other than consciousness.' With regard to these five clinging-aggregates, 'I am' has not been overcome, although I don't assume that 'I am this.' "Friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated. "Just like a cloth, dirty & stained: Its owners give it over to a washerman, who scrubs it with salt earth or lye or cow-dung and then rinses it in clear water. Now even though the cloth is clean & spotless, it still has a lingering residual scent of salt earth or lye or cow-dung. The washerman gives it to the owners, the owners put it away in a scent-infused wicker hamper, and its lingering residual scent of salt earth, lye, or cow-dung is fully obliterated. "In the same way, friends, even though a noble disciple has abandoned the five lower fetters, he still has with regard to the five clinging-aggregates a lingering residual 'I am' conceit, an 'I am' desire, an 'I am' obsession. But at a later time he keeps focusing on the phenomena of arising & passing away with regard to the five clinging-aggregates: 'Such is form, such its origin, such its disappearance. Such is feeling... Such is perception... Such are fabrications... Such is consciousness, such its origin, such its disappearance.' As he keeps focusing on the arising & passing away of these five clinging-aggregates, the lingering residual 'I am' conceit, 'I am' desire, 'I am' obsession is fully obliterated." ... Nina. 40110 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 5:59am Subject: Dhamma Thread (198) Dear Dhamma Friends, H. Multidoor classification on citta I. Arammana classification citta There are 1. 46 ruparammanika cittas 2. 46 saddarammanika cittas 3. 46 gandharammanika cittas 4. 46 rasarammanika cittas 5. 46 photthabbarammanika cittas 6. 67 dhammarammanika cittas 46 ruparammanika cittas are cittas that is supported by ruparammana or visual object. Without visual object there cannot be any of these 46 cittas. So they can be called as ruparammanika cittas. They are the same cittas at arise at cakkhu pasada or cakkhu dvara. 1. 1 panadvaravajjana citta 2. 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas 3. 2 sampaticchana cittas 4. 3 santirana cittas 5. 1 votthapana citta ( which is manodvaravajjana citta ) 6. 29 kama javana cittas (12 akusala + 1 hasituppada + 8 mahakusala + 8 mahakiriya) 7. 8 mahavipaka cittas(working as tadarammana cittas) ------ 46 cittas In saddarammanika cittas 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas are replaced by 2 sotavinnana cittas and other are the same. So do other arammanaika cittas of 5 senses. Unlike other cittas, these total 54 kamavacara cittas when arise as arammanika cittas they take the present object. And they can never take the past object or the future object or kalavimutta object like nibbana and panatti dhamma. But 67 dhammarammanika cittas can take all 6 senses or 6 arammanas of the present, the past, the future, and timeless phenomena like nibbana and panatti dhamma. These 67 dhammarammanika cittas are 1. 1 manodvaravajjana citta 2. 55 javana cittas ( 29 kama javana and 26 mahaggata javana ) 26 mahaggata javana cittas are (5rupakusala+5rupakiriya+4arupakusala+4arupakiriya+8lokuttara) 3. 11 tadarammana cittas ( 3 santirana + 8 mahavipaka ) ------- 67 cittas May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40111 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 6:28am Subject: The Buddha, Ananda and The First Discourse Dear Dhamma Friends, The Buddha was under the Bo tree and there were fisrt 5 disciples of The Buddha in front of The Buddha. They were still not bhikkhus. They were just hermits. On the full moon day that is 60 days of His Buddhahood, The Buddha preached His first discourse to these 5 disciples. Even though there were just 6 human beings including The Buddha, there were countless beings who were listening the discourse. The Buddha first preached The Dhamma called ''Dhammacakkapa'' or wheel of Dhamma. There were Kondanna, Vappa, Baddiya, Mahanama, and Assaji in the deer park called ''Isipatana'' on the full moonday of 4th month of Buddha calendar or on the 60th day of Buddhahood as Brahma King ''Sahampati'' requested. Ananda retold his first-hand knowledge of The Buddha first discourse at 1st sangayana or Buddhist Council as he heard through his own ears from the live Buddha. Ananda answered this discourse to Mahakassapa and attenders of the first Sangha Council ( Sangayana ). Once , Bhagava, when He was in the deer park ' Isipatana ' in Varanasi, said to His first five disciples at the foot of Bodhi-tree ( Banyan ): '' O Monks! Those who have been ordained have to avoid two extreme things which are extremely bad in terms of Way for liberation. The first is called ' Kamasukhallikanuyogo ' which arises along with sensural pleasure as boosted by Chandha Raga and Tanha. '' '' And the second is called 'Attakilamathanuyogo ' which arises along with self tortures such as sleeping on thorns, non-justifiable avoiding eating of enough food for health etc. These two extremes are to be avoided if one intends for liberation.'' '' After avoiding these two extremes, you have to hold the middle path called ' Ariyo Atthingiko Maggo ' or Noble Eightfold Path or Eight-factored Path. Following this path will already exclude two extremes. This path comprises Samma Ditthi, Samma Sankappa, Samma Vaca, Samma Kammanta, Samma Ajiva, Samma Vayama, Samma Sati, and Samma Samadhi. All these 8 factors are Magganga or parts of the path.'' '' Jati, Jara, Vyadhi, Marana, accompanying with hatred ones, departing from beloved ones, not obtaining what one wants, five Upadanakkhandha or 5 clingings are all Dukkha. Realising all these as Dukkha is the first Ariya's Sacca called Dukkha Ariya's Sacca.'' ''Kama Tanha or sensual desire, Bhava Tanha or desire for eternal life and Vibhava Tanha or desire of complete ceasation of all after death are all the cause of Dukkha and this Tanha or Samudaya becomes the second Ariya's Sacca which has to be eradicated.'' '' There is a state that completely ... free of all forms of Dukkha, ...devoid of any Dukkha ...exists as ceasation of all Dukkha ...releases all attachment and clinging ...totally deserts all Tanha hooked things ...escapes from all forms of Dukkha ...stays absolutely detached to anything. That state is called Nibbana. This state of ceasation becomes the third Ariya's Sacca. '' ' Ariya Atthingiko Maggo ' or Noble Eightfold Path or Eight- factored Path is called Majjimapatipada or the middle path, which refrains from two extremes of Kamasukhallikanuyogo or staying with sensual pleasure and Attakilamathanuyogo or staying self torturing.This path is called Dukkha Nirodha Gamini Patipada or simply 'suffering ceasing path practice '. This Noble Eightfold Path becomes the fourth Ariya's Sacca.'' Tathagata continued.. '' O Monks! I have got eye-sight ( Cakkhu ) into these matters, knowledge ( Nana ) of these matters,realization ( Panna ) of these matters at their full length, penetrative wisdom ( Vijja ) to these matters, and a bright light that strikes away all darkness that hides these Sacca.'' '' O monks! I have got the wisdom that can reveal complete picture of Dukkha, this is Dukkha, this Dukkha has this dimension, it is not more than this dimension and it is not less than this dimension and I have got the wisdom that figures out any Dukkha.'' '' Such things which I have never known before now come to me as I have got eye-sight, knowledge, realization at full length, penetrative wisdom and the bright light casting on Sacca.'' '' O Monks! Tanha is the source of Dukkha. There are three kinds called Kama Tanha, Bhava Tanha and Vibhava Tanha. As there are six senses, there are 18 Tanha. Ijjatta ( inside ) and Bahiddha ( outside ) make 36 Tanha. There are three temporal existances of present past and future so there are 108 Tanha. I have realized all these Tanha. As I have realized I have eradicated Ditthi and Vicikiccha through Sotapatti Magga, eradicated Kama Raga through Anagami Magga and Rupa and Arupa Tanha through Arahatta Magga. I have eradicated the second Sacca Samudaya which is the cause of sufferings.'' '' O Monks! The state called Nibbana is devoid of all forms of Dukkha. I have seen it with my mind-eye. Nibbana can be ' Sa- Upadisesa ' that is when alive being realization of that state and ' Anupadisesa ' that is total extinguishment of all fire of Dukkha which comes next to death.'' '' Nibbana can be called ' Sunnata Nibbana ', or ' Animitta Nibbana ' or ' Appanihita Nibbana '. These three are states and they arise from how Ariyas see the Dhamma on their path. If they view with Anatta Sanna ( recognition as Anatta ), Nibbana becomes Sunnata Nibbana. If see with Anicca Sanna ( recognition as Anicca ), Nibbana is Animitta Nibbana and if with Dukkha, it becomes Appanihita Nibbana.'' '' O Monks! I have realized the ceasation of all Dukkha through Magga Nana, Phala Nana, Paccavakkhana Nana. This state of ceasation of all Dukkha or Nibbana becomes the third Ariya's Sacca.'' '' O Monks! The fourth Sacca is Dukkha Nirodha Gamini Patipada Ariya's Sacca. It is Noble eightfold Path or Ariya Atthingiko Maggo. This path is to be maintained in the state of increasing amount and make abundant and proliferate and to be practised.'' '' O Monks! As long as I have not seen all these Sacca, I have not admitted that I have seen these. When I have realized all, I admit that I have realized all these Dhamma through Arahatta Magga Nana and Sabbannuta Nana. My this very life is the last life in Samsara and I definitely will not have any more rebirth.'' The first five disciples all liked the first discourse and they wailed Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! aloud. Kondanna became Sotapam immediately after the discourse and he asked for monkhood under The Buddha Sasana or teachings. The Buddha allowed him and called him '' Come on Bhikkhu '' and Kondanna became the very first member of Sangha in The Buddha Sasana. After the discourse, earth Deva wailed that '' Gotama The Buddha has preached Dhammacakkappa, which no other Satta can never ever ever can do so. This wailing spread to Catu Maharaja Deva realm, Tavatimsa Deva realm, Yama Deva realm, Tusita Deva realm, Nimmanarati Deva realm, Paranimmitavassavati Deva realm and Brahma realms. The Buddha announced that Kondanna realized Ariya Sacca through Sotapatti Magga. Since then Kondanna became '' Annasi Kondanna ''. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40112 From: jwromeijn Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:49am Subject: What is time ? Dear all For no apparent reason I was thinking today on a theme I have studies before: "What is 'time' in Abhidhamma", and in Buddhism in general ?. Three important publications were: Nyanaponika 'The problem of time' in 'Abhidhamma Studies' (chapter 5) Karunadasa 'Time and space: The Abhidhamma perspective' Kalupahana 'Buddhist Conception of Time and Temporality' (but I know not everybody in DSG likes Kalupahana) When these authors are right and 'time' doesn't belong to the paramattha dhamms (it does belong to it in a mahayana Abhidharma) then it is a concept, a conventional phenomena and we are free to have theories about the concept time. Even in a way I say sometimes semi-serious: "Time doesn't exist, it's an illusion". Before I posted this message I have looked in 'Useful Posts' to check if there are messages that I am repeated now. But I think this is another discussion about time. It's a pity that the people doing study about the theme of "time" in Abhidhamma (or Tipitaka in general) don't have studied the philosophy of time in broader sense. Thinking about time in general is extreme difficult because we have two strong suppositions, two biases we can hardly release, like the atta-belief: - The idea that there is an 'arrow of time", that in the time- dimension the moment "now" can only go in one direction. But why should that be so, it's just conventional thinking. It may be true but we are not sure in advance. - The idea that time is continue, that a period of time, how short it is, always can be divided in two shorter periods. In some physical theories (some string theories) the time-dimension is discrete: there are undividable quanta of time. - The idea that there is "one time dimension". There are in conventional physics three space dimensions and in modern physics four or even ten. So why isn't it possible that there are two (or more) time-dimensions ? When something is happening in one time- dimension it can be the "now", the 'present moment" during that happening in another time-dimension. Thinking that there is just one time-dimension is conventional thinking. I think this aspects can be important for dhamma-study too. Thye idea of discreteness of time corresponds to the Abhidhamma- processes, I think Another exemple: death consciousness (cuti-citta) of this existence occurs at the end of the dying process; the next consciousness is the rebirth-linking consciousness. From the buddhistic stories I have read about rebirth I get the impression that this consciousness can travel in space: tens till thousands of kilometers; so why should this consciousness not travel in time, or move along another time- dimension? When my study is bringing me to new insights that maybe interesting for dsg-members, I post again Metta Joop 40113 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 7:57am Subject: Re: What is time ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > I think > Another exemple: death consciousness (cuti-citta) of this existence > occurs at the end of the dying process; the next consciousness is the > rebirth-linking consciousness. From the buddhistic stories I have > read about rebirth I get the impression that this consciousness can > travel in space: tens till thousands of kilometers; ========= Dear Joop, The death consciousness doesn't travel anywhere. It arises and passes away. But it is a condition for a new citta, patisandhi citta, that arises immediately uopn the falling away of cuti citta. As you say it could be far away, even much more than thousand of kilometers. robertk 40114 From: Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:07am Subject: Yahoo Groups Emails Hi, all - Sorry to bother you with this. I'm subscribed to a number of the groups on Yahoo, receiving messages in my email in-box. However, I have received no emails from any of these groups, including DSG, for the last 17 hours. Is there anyone else experiencing the same? If yes, then I presume there is a problem at Yahoo. If not, then there must be a problem with my own Yahoo settings, though that doesn't seem to be the case in checking the web site. I would appreciate any feedback on this. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40115 From: Tep Sastri Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:58am Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups Emails Hi, Howard - There was a mail in my Inbox at 5:47 A.M. CT today (from Bhikkhu Smahita). Right noe my local time is 11:58 A.M. Regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > Sorry to bother you with this. I'm subscribed to a number of the > groups on Yahoo, receiving messages in my email in-box. However, I have received no > emails from any of these groups, including DSG, for the last 17 hours. Is > there anyone else experiencing the same? If yes, then I presume there is a > problem at Yahoo. If not, then there must be a problem with my own Yahoo settings, > though that doesn't seem to be the case in checking the web site. I would > appreciate any feedback on this. > > With metta, > Howard > 40116 From: upasaka_howard Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:57am Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups Emails Hi, Tep - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi, Howard - > > There was a mail in my Inbox at 5:47 A.M. CT today (from Bhikkhu > Smahita). Right noe my local time is 11:58 A.M. > > > Regards, > > > Tep ========================== Thanks for the reply. (I'm replying to you from the web site.) So it's been about 6 hours of no mails for you. For me it's been 21 hours, except for one msg about an hour ago from another yahoo list. There also seems to me to be a dearth of messages at the web site, on all the lists I subscribe to. Ah, well! ;-) Thanks again for you reply. With metta, Howard 40117 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:42am Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups Emails Hello Howard, Except for one list, I always read at the websites. However, the one list that I do receive individual emails from (IP) has been operating as usual - emails arriving in my in box as they are posted. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > Sorry to bother you with this. I'm subscribed to a number of the > groups on Yahoo, receiving messages in my email in-box. However, I have received no > emails from any of these groups, including DSG, for the last 17 hours. Is > there anyone else experiencing the same? If yes, then I presume there is a > problem at Yahoo. If not, then there must be a problem with my own Yahoo settings, > though that doesn't seem to be the case in checking the web site. I would > appreciate any feedback on this. > > With metta, > Howard > 40118 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:02pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: And then there was Hi Howard and RobK, Thanks for your replies. I see the possibility of a connection between the "conditionality only" view and the double predestination of Calvin. The latter entails that God preordained that some should/would be saved and that the rest be damned. Peoples' lives are merely the unfolding of God's will. There is nothing that is not pre-determined. The conditionality only view (in which there also is nothing that is not determined) is likewise just the unfolding and refolding and unfolding of conditions. Both views allow for an omniscience that knows all futures, but under Calvin's system, God has the option of changing his mind (which, of course, he would also have known about beforehand). I have snipped both your posts only because I am not referring to them directly. Thanks and Kind Regards Herman 40119 From: Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yahoo Groups Emails Hi Howard, I think it's a Yahoo problem. I just posted two replies from my own mail program and neither showed up at Yahoo. However, you probably won't get this one either so I'm not sure why I'm writing it. Larry 40120 From: Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:46pm Subject: RE: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Herman: "PS I know you like the Vis., how do you reckon it relates to Upatissa's Vimutti-Magga?" Hi Herman, Vimuttimagga has a very similar format, appears to be earlier, and is much simpler. Not nearly as polished and elegant. What we have is an English translation of a Chinese translation. I'm not sure what language it was originally written in, Pali or Ceylonese. Incidentally, I've been contemplating the "dhamma" of the ayatanas. As it happens it is rather interesting to notice that this presently arising fetter is dependent on that rupa. It makes it seem that the fetter is less solid or monumental somehow. Larry 40121 From: Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Htoo: "5. pathavi or consistency serves as tangible object 6. tejo or temperature serves as tangible object 7. vayo or resiliency serves as tangible object" Hi Htoo, Would you say a little more on pathavi and vayo? Also, what about other kinds of bodily sensation such as a back ache or tooth ache or a cut finger or a burn or upset stomach etc.? It seems difficult sometimes to distinguish between bodily sensation and bodily feeling (vedana). Larry 40123 From: upasaka_howard Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 6:11pm Subject: HELP! Re: What is time ? Hi, all - This post to which I'm replying is the most recent Triplegem post I see on the web site. (Have there been other ones since that one?) I've been receiving *no emails* from Triplegem or any other of the Yahoo groups (including DSG, Dhamma List, and Insight Practice, among others, for about 26 hours). Is there anyone else, especially folks with AOL as internet provider, who are having the same problem, and does anyone have a solution? Can the Triplegem owner please help? In case other AOL folks are having this problem, could you please report it to AOL? Maybe that will help, though it hasn't helped me. With metta, Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" > wrote: > > > > I think > > Another exemple: death consciousness (cuti-citta) of this > existence > > occurs at the end of the dying process; the next consciousness is > the > > rebirth-linking consciousness. From the buddhistic stories I have > > read about rebirth I get the impression that this consciousness > can > > travel in space: tens till thousands of kilometers; > ========= > Dear Joop, > The death consciousness doesn't travel anywhere. It arises and > passes away. But it is a condition for a new citta, patisandhi > citta, that arises immediately uopn the falling away of cuti citta. > As you say it could be far away, even much more than thousand of > kilometers. > robertk 40124 From: Philip Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 3:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika. Hi Nina, Larry and all > > This "immediately overwhelmed" gets at what happens in Honeyball > > Sutta and so many others - the way we proliferate so quickly starting > > from the point at which there is contact. Who doesn't? The monk who > > "stops at seeing." > N: Yes, I read: whatevere is the origin of anumber of obsessions and > perceptions...if there is nothing to rejoice at...this in itself is an end > to the latent tendency of sense desire... aversion... etc. Those latent > tendencies condition the attachment with feeling. etc. Phil: Not only "rejoice at", right? I mean, we are even more likely to have aversion to sense objects - I am, at least. This is why the question "is there seeing now?" is so important. Understanding that it is a much more difficult question than it appears to be helps us get at understanding this vital point at which proliferation occurs. We grasp at features, grasp at "signs" - our mind is so hungry to put together visual information, to label it, attach signs to it, feel it, feed on it, proliferate on it. When we begin to see how quickly this happens, how little control we have over it - we begin to sense the black curtain of ignorance K Sujin talks about - we can get discouraged. But at least now we know what the truth of the matter is and there are no more comforting illusions about quick fixes. It will take a long time, through patient appreciation of moments of understanding that arise due to conditions. But there needn't be fear - the Buddha told us that we *can* abandon the unwholesome, and we will if we are patient. But it's so hard to be patient for Westerners, especially North Americans like me. (This is just my hunch.) We have the "I can fix it now!" mentality. We cling to accomplishments in this one lifetime, and that throws us off the path. > Ph: I read somewhere that wise attention is related in some way to > > *not* being subject to those 4 illusions - I can't remember what > > they're called now, and I have to run - the illusions which make us > > see the beautiful in the foul, the permanent in the impermanent and > > so on. So when we fail to see the impermanence of feelings, we get > > caught up in them and proliferate. > N: In the next para of the Vis. , 126, the Co stresses in particular wise > attention as a condition for feeling to be kusala and unwise attention for > feeling to be akusala. I think that the reason is that feelings are very > predominant. When there is wise attention they do not overwhelm us. > I am glad about your input. Phil: I am finding so many helpful reminders about wise attention in suttas. SN XXXVI.3 "When one expereinces pleasure, if one does not understand feeling, the tendency to lust is present. When one expereinces pain, if one does not understand feeling, the tendency to aversion is present." And of course this happens all the time, except for rare moments of understanding. But it seems to me that the understanding can arise more and more quickly. We proliferate all the time, but we come to put out the fire faster. The sutta on yoniso manasikaara SN IX.11 tells us that we are "being chewed" by our thoughts. How true for me. And how true that a moment of awareness of one reality through one of the six doors takes the teeth of my neck! I know there is not nibanna now, but there is certainly "not being chewed upon now" and that is welcome! I know that hearing the India talks will help me a lot to understand this. > Ph: The first dart of bodily feeling leads to the second dart of mental > feeling as one sutta in SN puts it. > N: I remember. When you have aversion of pain, you make it worse, another > dart. Phil: We read this sutta and understand it so clearly. But then it's gone. So to use the "chewed by our thoughts" simile, it's like we allow our minds to chew upon the wound. Ouch! A moment of awareness of one reality through one of the six doors shines light on the wound that helps to heal it. Panna shines that light. > Ph: As we know, seeing the impermanence (annica) of dhammas leads to > > seeing dukkha in them. And do seeing these two characteristics lead > > to seeing anatta? > N: The three characteristics are closely connected, see the suttas of > K.S.IV. But depending on the individual, one of these three may be seen more > often than the others. Just before enlightenment, one characteristic is > seen, but this means, they are all three penetrated. Phil: I notice quite often in many suttas, it seems that the Buddha mentions impermanence twice, and doesn't mention not-self. Many times. For example, in the sutta about oneself as an island, (SN XXII,43) there is "all form is impermanent, suffering and subject to change." So depending on the individual, yes, when it comes to profound insight at stages of enlightenment, when one of the characterisitic arises, but in terms of daily insight, intellectual insight, I wonder if it isn't easier to understand impermanence, and whether this is why so often the Buddha seems to mention it twice and leaves anatta to the side. What does the Thai commentary say about this "all form is impermanent, suffering and subject to change" that appears so often. Why doesn't it mention not-self? I know you're very busy, Nina, so if you could just check this last question when you have time. Thanks in advance. And thanks to you and Sarah for your helpful feedback on abstinence in the Cetasikas thread. Metta, Phil 40125 From: Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:40pm Subject: Vism.XIV,126 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 126. But though it is singlefold according to its individual essence as the characteristic of being felt, it is nevertheless threefold as to kind, that is to say, profitable, unprofitable, and indeterminate. Herein, it should be understood that when associated with the profitable consciousness described in the way beginning '(1)-(8) That of the sense sphere is eightfold, being classified according to joy, equanimity, knowledge, and prompting' (par.83), it is 'profitable';54 that associated with unprofitable consciousness is 'unprofitable'; that associated with indeterminate consciousness is 'indeterminate'. [461] ------------------------ Note 54. 'This should be regarded as a secondary characteristic (upalakka.na) of profitable feeling, that is to say, the fact that whatever profitable feeling there is, is all associated with profitable consciousness. That, however, is not for the purpose of establishing its profitableness. For the profitableness of profitable feeling is not due to its association with profitable consciousness, but rather to wise attention and so on. That is why he said "as to kind". So too in the case of the unprofitable and so on' (Pm.481). 40126 From: upasaka_howard Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Yahoo Groups Emails Hi, Larry - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Howard, > > I think it's a Yahoo problem. I just posted two replies from my own mail > program and neither showed up at Yahoo. However, you probably won't get > this one either so I'm not sure why I'm writing it. > > Larry ========================== It's showed up now on the web site, which is where I'm replying from. In the last 28 to 30 hours, I've only received a total of two emails out of the total of 9 Yahoo groups I subscribe to! I *hope* it's a (temporary) Yahoo problem. Otherwise, I am effectively not subscribed to any of the lists and will probably just have to give them up. I made phone calls to both Yahoo & AOL, and no one has any idea. Thanks very much for writing. You or amyone who wants to reach me for any reason can, of course, email me directly at upasaka@a.... With metta, Howard 40127 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:32pm Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups Emails --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello Howard, > > Except for one list, I always read at the websites. However, the > one list that I do receive individual emails from (IP) has been > operating as usual - emails arriving in my in box as they are > posted. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > > > Sorry to bother you with this. I'm subscribed to a number > of the > > groups on Yahoo, receiving messages in my email in-box. Friend Howard, Gosh, you follow too many Internet groups! Dump the rest, DSG is the best!! ;-)) Metta, James 40128 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:16am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 82- Volition/cetanaa (l) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** Akusala citta arises because of conditions which are entirely different from the conditions for the kusala citta which made the resolution to observe sila.We all have accumulated tendencies to kusala and to akusala and it depends on conditions whether we perform kusala kamma or akusala kamma. When there is no development of mahå-satipaììhåna it is very difficult to observe the precepts. The Visuddhimagga mentions in the section on síla (Chapter I, 53-60) the “guarding of the sense-doors”, because this can be considered as an aspect of síla. When there is mindfulness of, for example, visible object and visible object is not taken for a ‘thing’ or a person but is known as only a kind of rúpa appearing through the eyes, the eye-door is guarded. At that moment there is no attachment to visible object, no aversion towards it, no ignorance about it. Later on we may become absorbed in what we see and we may cling to it, but at the moment of mindfulness the doorways are guarded and there is restraint of the senses. Thus, mindfulness of nåma and rúpa, which is a form of bhåvanå (mental development), can also be considered as síla. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40129 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 0:14am Subject: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities /Howard... Hello Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Azita - > ...snip... > ================================= > I don't mean to back off from *looking* closely. I think it is > important to look as closely and carefully as one can. Azita: I am not sure what you mean by 'looking'. For me, I find it very helpful to think about/contemplate what I've heard/read. When I do so, what seemed > solid and self-existent disappears as such. When I look more and more closely with > reasoning, however, with the intention of making an ultimate analysis, there > is a different sort of falling apart. Azita: again, not sure what you mean by ultimate analysis, and of what. The reasoning itself falls apart, and > dissolves into convoluted contradictions. I very much believe in the mind's > capacity to directly see what is what, exactly as it is. That capacity, that > perfect congnitive functioning is what I understand by 'wisdom'. And I think that > one way to get to it is to reach the limit of reasoning - to reach the point > that the reasoning falls apart, with no explanation whatsoever working. > Azita: I believe wisdom does have the capacity to see directly what is what, but I also believe that that is highly developed wisdom, certainly not any degree of wisdom that I can claim. It's my understanding that not by reasoning can this wisdom be made to develop, as I see reasoning as just another type of thinking. To begin with, I think this wisdom is very weak and there is a lot of doubt about whether or not there is actually any understanding at all, of any reality that appears in the present moment. I think wisdom grows very,very slowly and most of the time, for me anyway, there is no wisdom at all, no clear understanding of any reality. But there can be, at those times, an acceptance of just how little knowledge there is. Not by trying can wisdom be made to grow ..... > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. There! Not one "we"! ;-) Azita: I'm smiling Howard, Not one 'we' at all, and it became a more personel entry bec. of no 'we' ...well, for me anyway. :-) Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 40130 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG) -> Sarah Hi James (& TG), --- buddhatrue wrote: > Using the suttas as a guide, I have argued that being a sotapanna is > not nearly as difficult as Sarah claims it is. I think that there > are quite a few sotapannas on this list! Maybe Sarah wants to be on > the side of caution to guard against conceit, I'm not sure. Is that > a British thing? ;-)) (just kidding). … S: Maybe she’s just a party-pooper. Imagine, without these party-poopers, probably all Buddhists would be sotapannas today without awkward questions being asked;-). I do have other posts I’d intended to reply to today(like one of yours, TG's other point and KenO's for a start), but I need to call family members and so on, so they may have to be after the weekend. Wishing everyone an enjoyable and wise holiday season meanwhile. Metta, Sarah p.s thx for the pic with the wee kitten - why not put it in the DSG album? ===== 40131 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:16am Subject: Dhamma Thread (199) Dear Dhamma Friends, More classifications on citta are coming. H. Multidoor classification on citta I. Arammana classification citta 1. 46 ruparammanika cittas 2. 46 saddarammanika cittas 3. 46 gandharammanika cittas 4. 46 rasarammanika cittas 5. 46 photthabbarammanika cittas 6. 67 dhammarammanika cittas Unlike dvara classifications, here in arammana classification, 19 cittas of patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti do not deserve a separate categories. In dvara classification, 19 bhavanga cittas do not arise at any of dvara and they are called advarika cittas or dvar-vimutta cittas. But arammanawise they do have arammanas or objects. These matters will be discussed when vithi vara discussions come. J. classic-object classification on citta 1. rupekekaarammanika cittas ( 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas ) 2. saddekekaarammanika cittas( 2 sotavinnana cittas ) 3. gandhekekaarammanika cittas(2 ghanavinnana cittas ) 4. rasekekaarammanika cittas ( 2 jivhavinnana cittas ) 5. photthabbekekaarammanika cittas(2kayavinnana cittas) 6. rupaadi-pancarammanika cittas ( 1 pancadvaravajjana and 2 sampatic) 7. kamavacaraarammanika cittas ( above + 3 santi + 8 mahavi + 1 hasi) ( 2+2+2+2+2+1+2+3+8+1= 25 kamavacara-arammanika cittas ) 8. lokuttaravajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas (12 akusala cittas + 4 nana vippayutta mahakusala and 4 mahakiriya) 9. arahatta-magga-phala-vajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas ( 4 nana sampayutta mahakusala cittas/+ 5th rupa abhinnana) 10.sabbathapi-sabbaarammanika cittas ( 4 nana sampayutta mahakiriya cittas, 1 votthapana citta/+5th rupa kiriya abhinnana 11. mahaggataarammanika cittas ( 3 2nd arupa jhana cittas and 3 4th arupa jhana cittas ) 12. pannattaarammanika cittas (3 1st arupajhana cittas, 3 3rd arupajhana cittas, 15 rupavacaras) 13.nibbaanaarammanika cittas ( 8 lokuttara cittas ) May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40132 From: Philip Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,126 Hi Larry, and all > 126. But though it is singlefold according to its individual essence as > the characteristic of being felt, it is nevertheless threefold as to > kind, that is to say, profitable, unprofitable, and indeterminate. This threefold classification doesn't correlate to the threefold classification of pleasant, unpleasant and neither pleasant nor unpleasant, right? No, of course not - pleasant feeling is just as likely to be akusala as unpleasant feeling, and maybe *more* likely, because it is easier to understand/know/recognize the arising of unpleasant feeling than it is to recognize pleasant feeling - the manifestation of the latter seems much more subtle and insiduous most of the time. It would be profitable if there is knowing of the feeling as impermanent etc. To repeat the sutta passage I quoted in the other thread : "When one experiences pleasure, if one does not understand feeling, the tendency to lust is present. When one experiences pain, if one does not understand feeling, the tendency to aversion is present." (SN XXXVI.3) Since we are usually incapable of understanding feeling in the moment that it arises, these feeling-related cittas would almost invariably be unprofitable. Is my understanding correct? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 40133 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 3:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: >Htoo: "5. pathavi or consistency serves as tangible object > 6. tejo or temperature serves as tangible object > 7. vayo or resiliency serves as tangible object" > > Hi Htoo, > > Would you say a little more on pathavi and vayo? Also, what about other > kinds of bodily sensation such as a back ache or tooth ache or a cut > finger or a burn or upset stomach etc.? It seems difficult sometimes to > distinguish between bodily sensation and bodily feeling (vedana). > > Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Larry, You are right. It is not just sometimes. Because sensation or here kaya-vinnana is a citta and its associated vedana or feeling is a cetasika. According to sampayutta paccaya, it is not possible to separate out each other. Physical sensationwise there are many many sensations that the body carries and sometimes it is hard to fit into three categories of 'pathavi' 'tejo' and 'vayo'. In body there are many sense receptors. This is topic about body- sense-receptors. Special-sense-receptors are retina, organ or Corti, olfactory cells, and taste buds. Body-sense-receptors are for general senses not for special senses. Eyes also carry general sense. Ears also bear general sense. Nose also knows general sense. Tougue also knows touch sense. But the sense receptors that know general senses in the eyes are not concerned with special senses. Among general senses, there are many different senses and they are each carried by different pathways. Some are carried to the brain via anterior pathway in the spinal cord. Some fibres are brought to the brain through lateral pathways of the spinal cord. There are also some fibres that travel up by the way of posterior path in the spinal cord. Actually these are scientific realities. There are sense of fine touch like a single fibre of bird fur, sense of crude touch like elephant foot, sense of pressure, sense of cold, sense of warmth, sense of pain, sense of differentiation, sense of thrilling, sense of vibration, and many others. But all these physical matters are just the work stations for mind faculties. Once namarupapariccheda nana arises rupa and nama will be clearly understood. When body senses are known, these senses will be just seen as they are in terms of ultimate realities. Not in terms of scientific classifications of senses. Back-ache, tooth-ache, cut-finger, burn, scold, upset stomach? Scientific basis for back-ache will be complicated with terminology. I think there is no back-ache in dhamma. If we talk on that back-ache then I think I might be just a mixture of 'tejo-photthabba' and 'vayo- photthabba'. A mixture means sometimes tejo and sometimes vayo or kayavinnana cittas are arising alternatively as receiving tejo- phothabba and vayo-photthabba. When vayo predominates back-ache would seem to be rovering horizontally or vertically along the backbones or down to bottom. When tejo predominates back-ache would like pain. When that pain eases off, there may notice some components of heat in the back and then it passes away. Tooth-ache is more in the side of tejo-photthabba. But sometimes it goes up to the head and may micmic head-ache. Sometimes it goes down to the neckspine and may micmic spondylosis. Cut-finger is highly intense tejo-photthabba, I think. Burn is apparent that mostly it is tejo-photthabba but vayo may also invlove. Scold is almost the same with burn but more vayo involves than in case of burn. Upset stomuch is also a mixture. Sometimes it may be perceived as vayo-photthabba and sometimes as tejo-photthabba. In science even pain is subclassified into many types. Everyone knows pain sense. Some may notice its early phase of arising and its disappearance phase. Just before disappearing that pain is like some warm heat. I think we should be able to separate out nama and rupa at least at theoretical level. I notice here in Yahoo groups that there are many experts in dhamma. They each have their good and excellent proficiency in dhamma at least at some areas. But sometimes some seem not able to differentiate between nama dhamma and rupa dhamma even in theoretical knowledge. May this message help you and others. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Seasonal greeting_ 'Merry Christmas'. 40134 From: upasaka_howard Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:42am Subject: Re: Yahoo Groups Emails --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Friend Howard, > > Gosh, you follow too many Internet groups! Dump the rest, DSG is > the best!! ;-)) -------------------------- Howard: I know! ;-) -------------------------- > > Metta, James ========================= With metta, Howard 40135 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:06am Subject: Seasons greetings Hello all, I wish you all much patience, courage and good cheer, not just at this time of year :-) but all thro the year as well. May you all be well and happy, Azita. 40136 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:22am Subject: Re: What is time ? Hallo RobertK You are right, your description is far more accurate. But still time and space are nearly the same according Einstein Theory of relativity. So when when the new citta can arise thousands of kilimeters away, it also can arise any period of time away. And the question remains: what is time? Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Joop, > The death consciousness doesn't travel anywhere. It arises and > passes away. But it is a condition for a new citta, patisandhi > citta, that arises immediately uopn the falling away of cuti > citta. > As you say it could be far away, even much more than thousand of > kilometers. > robertk 40137 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:14am Subject: Re: Seasons greetings Happy Holidays to Everyone! Let me follow Azita's lead to send my best wishes and goodwill to all members of DSG. And may each day in the coming year be a good day, Tep ============ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Hello all, > > I wish you all much patience, courage and good cheer, not just > at this time of year :-) but all thro the year as well. > > May you all be well and happy, > Azita. 40138 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:43am Subject: Re: the jhanas (by Ajahn Brahmavamso) - ebook version Friend Frank, Thank you so much for the link to this e-book! It is truly EXCELLENT!! Regardless of one's aspirations for jhana, I believe that it is a book every serious Buddhist should read. The information in the book could condition the attainment of jhanas in this lifetime or future lifetimes. It is a really wonderful book with practical advice and instruction. I am going to read it twice and probably three times!! Thanks again! Metta, James Ps. I often wonder what has become of Jeffrey Brooks. Last I heard he wanted to ordain at my temple in Arizona, Wat Promkunaram (though I don't think they take initiates and it isn't the sort of temple for serious contemplative bhikkhus). Where in the world is Jeffrey? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Frank wrote: > (delurking for a few nanoseconds) > > I was overjoyed when I found out Jeff (from > jhanas@yahoogroups) transcribed the booklet into a > free pdf file. It still boggles my mind that very > mediocre and horrible books on Buddhism are > international bestsellers, while many of the truly > excellent books and articles on Buddhism authored by > eminent cultivators are available for free, under > promoted, and sadly, under-read. > > you can get the free ebook here: > > http://www.4nobletruths.com/exceptional_ebooks/jhanas_brahm.htm > (I recently purchased this domain name and webhosting > service with high bandwidth and storage) > > > Or on Jeff's website (search for brahmavamso + "the > jhanas" in the message archive at jhanas@yahoogroups) > > Greetings to old friends on the list, Happy Holidays, > much metta, and may you experience abundant fruits > from your meditative practice. > > (re-lurking and concentrating my efforts on my right > concentration and right effort...) > ? > > > ===== > frank@4... 40139 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:03am Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (199) Dear Dhamma Friends, This thread number (199) is a bit heavy and most words have not been explained. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Dhamma Friends, More classifications on citta are coming. H. Multidoor classification on citta I. Arammana classification citta ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These 2 classifications have been discussed. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. 46 ruparammanika cittas 2. 46 saddarammanika cittas 3. 46 gandharammanika cittas 4. 46 rasarammanika cittas 5. 46 photthabbarammanika cittas 6. 67 dhammarammanika cittas ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Ruparammanika is made up of rupa and arammanika. Rupa here means 'rupa-arammana' or 'vanna' which is colours, forms, shapes. Arammanika means 'arising at arammana' or 'taking arammana' 'holding arammana'. So ruparammanika means 'taking visual object'. Ruparammanika cittas are cittas that take the visual objects. So do other arammanika cittas the same as in case of ruparammanika cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Unlike dvara classifications, here in arammana classification, 19 cittas of patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti do not deserve a separate categories. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Because 19 cittas are dvara-vimutta cittas. But they are not arammana- vimutta cittas. No citta can be free of arammana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In dvara classification, 19 bhavanga cittas do not arise at any of dvara and they are called advarika cittas or dvar-vimutta cittas. But arammanawise they do have arammanas or objects. These matters will be discussed when vithi vara discussions come. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Before vithi vara discussion come here is a hint of the arammanas of these 19 cittas. This life is started with patisandhi citta. We people who are reading these scripts were born with one of 8 mahavipaka cittas. And at patisandhi, the first citta is called patisandhi citta. Q:Why did that citta have to arise? A:Because there is kamma. Q:What kamma? A:The kamma that can give rise to patisandhi vipaka citta. Q:Where is that kamma? A:It is time rather than place. Just before death, there is the last vithi vara. At the end of vithi vara, there follow cuti citta directly. Or sometimes 1 bhavanga citta arises and then cuti citta arises. Both bhavanga citta and cuti citta are abyakata dhamma or dhamma that cannot give rise to further kamma. So this life patisandhi and those 2 cittas of bhavanga and cuti cittas are totally not related. This unrelation is also time, place, bhumi, jati, sankhara, sampayutta dhamma, and arammana dhamma. That is why life can be anything after death. What is related is the last vithi vara. Again in that last vithi vara only javana cittas can produce patisandhi vipaka cittas. Vipaka means resultant. That is javanas of this life result in patisandhi vipaka of next life. So when we are not in vithi vara, we are in bhavanga cittas and these bhavanga cittas are taking the arammana of last immediate past life's last javana cittas' arammana. So they do have arammana and there is no citta that does not have any arammana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- J. classic-object classification on citta ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is according to kind of arammana or jati-arammana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. rupekekaarammanika cittas ( 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Rupekekaarammanika = rupa + ekeka + arammana + ika Rupa here means 'visual object'. Eka means 'one' and ekeka means 'bearing one'. Arammana means 'object' to be known. Ika means 'at'. Rupekekaarammanaika means 'taking only one object which is rupa or form/shape' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. saddekekaarammanika cittas( 2 sotavinnana cittas ) 3. gandhekekaarammanika cittas(2 ghanavinnana cittas ) 4. rasekekaarammanika cittas ( 2 jivhavinnana cittas ) 5. photthabbekekaarammanika cittas(2kayavinnana cittas) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Other do the same as in case of rupekekaarammanika cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 6. rupaadi-pancarammanika cittas ( 1 pancadvaravajjana and 2 sampatic) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Rupa here is 'vanna'. Adica means 'etc'. Rupaadica means 'rupa and others' that is rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, photthabba. So these 3 cittas which are mano-dhatu take one of 5 arammanas of rupa, sadda, gandha, rasa, and photthabba. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 7. kamavacaraarammanika cittas ( above + 3 santi + 8 mahavi + 1 hasi) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Kamavacara means 'related to kamavacara dhamma or related to 5 physical senses and their implications'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ( 2+2+2+2+2+1+2+3+8+1= 25 kamavacara-arammanika cittas ) 8. lokuttaravajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas (12 akusala cittas + 4 nana vippayutta mahakusala and 4 mahakiriya) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Lokuttaravajjita means 'excluding lokuttara arammana here that is nibbana'. Sabba means 'all'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 9. arahatta-magga-phala-vajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas ( 4 nana sampayutta mahakusala cittas/+ 5th rupa abhinnana) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Vajjita means 'excluding'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 10.sabbathapi-sabbaarammanika cittas ( 4 nana sampayutta mahakiriya cittas, 1 votthapana citta/+5th rupa kiriya abhinnana ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Sabbathapi means 'in all possible ways'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 11. mahaggataarammanika cittas ( 3 2nd arupa jhana cittas and 3 4th arupa jhana cittas ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Mahaggata means 'great'. Mahaggata here means 'jhana'. Again jhana here are 3 cittas of vinnanancayatana arupavacara cittas. They are kusala citta, vipaka citta, and kiriya citta that are 2nd arupa jhana citta called vinnanancayatana arupa jhana citta. These cittas take the object 1st arupa jhana citta which is a citta which again is paramattha dhamma and realities. These cittas are 1st arupa jhana cittas and they are mahaggata arammana for 2nd arupa jhana cittas. So all 2nd arupa jhana cittas whether they are kusala, vipaka, or kiriya they take the mahaggata object called 1st arupa jhana citta which is akasanancayatana citta. 3 cittas of 4th arupa jhana cittas(nevasanna-nasannayatana cittas) take mahaggata object which is 3rd arupa jhana cittas. Citta is a reality. Here that citta is jhana citta and they are called mahaggata citta and so the object is called mahagatta arammana. So all 4th arupa jhana cittas or nevasanna-nasanna-ayatana cittas take the mahaggata object which is 3rd arupa jhana cittas or akincinnayatana cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 12. pannattaarammanika cittas (3 1st arupajhana cittas, 3 3rd arupajhana cittas, 15 rupavacaras) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Aprt from 2nd arupa jhana and 4th arupa jhana, other arupa jhana take pannatti as their object. All rupavacara jhana cittas take panatti as their object. If a citta is rupavacara jhana citta, the object is always always pannatti and not paramattha dhamma. This is the place why Bodhisatta could not have progress at nevasanna-nasanna-ayatana jhana and then he quit from it and serached further dhamma. This is lineage of citta. If a citta is jhana citta then it takes pannatti only. Not other arammana. But lokuttara cittas all take nibbana as their object. These include lokuttara jhana cittas, which are not rupavacara jhana cittas but they are lokuttara cittas. Their lineage is lokuttara. When arammanas are not well penetrated there were and are and will be argumentation and disputes on whether rupa jhanas are needed or not for lokuttara dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 13.nibbaanaarammanika cittas ( 8 lokuttara cittas ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This means 'nibbana as the object for citta'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing *** Seasonal greeting to all 'Merry Christmas and happy new year.' 40140 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:40am Subject: Problems in My Understanding Re: [dsg] Contact/TG) -> Sarah Friend Sarah, Sarah: Maybe she's just a party-pooper. Imagine, without these party- poopers, probably all Buddhists would be sotapannas today without awkward questions being asked;-). James: Hehehe…well, I don't think that would be very likely since most "Buddhists" today don't know the first thing about Buddhism, and in Asia especially they believe in rites and rituals. However, what would be so bad about that, anyway? Do you view Buddhism as some sort of exclusive membership club and that only those who pour over the commentaries, picking out an isolated statement here and a snippet there, know what it takes to gain entrance? Again, here is what the suttas state in regards to the fruits of sotapanna. I don't believe that anything more is correct: "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks." "And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters." "He attends appropriately, This is dukkha... This is the origination of dukkha... This is the cessation of dukkha... This is the way leading to the cessation of dukkha. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: self-identity view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices." "Endowed with these five qualities, a lay follower is a jewel of a lay follower, a lotus of a lay follower, a fine flower of a lay follower. Which five? He/she has conviction; is virtuous; is not eager for protective charms & ceremonies; trusts kamma, not protective charms & ceremonies; does not search for recipients of his/her offerings outside (of the Sangha), and gives offerings here first." Sarah: p.s thx for the pic with the wee kitten - why not put it in the DSG album? James: Sure, no problem. Sure, I'll put it in the album. Metta, James 40141 From: Larry Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:54am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,126 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > , It would be profitable if there is knowing of the feeling as > impermanent etc. To repeat the sutta passage I quoted in the other > thread : "When one experiences pleasure, if one does not understand > feeling, the tendency to lust is present. When one experiences pain, > if one does not understand feeling, the tendency to aversion is > present." (SN XXXVI.3) > > Since we are usually incapable of understanding feeling in the > moment that it arises, these feeling-related cittas would almost > invariably be unprofitable. Is my understanding correct? Thanks in > advance. > > Metta, > Phil Hi Phil, Nina or Htoo can better answer your question but I would say no. The sutta quote refers to the eradication of latent tendencies (anusaya) in path consciousness. The feeling that arises with a wholesome (kusala) consciousness is kusala even though that consciousness doesn't fully understand the nature of realities. If generosity arises the feeling that accompanies that generosity is kusala regardless of your understanding. For example, generosity could arise based on conceit. The consciousness that conceives of conceit is akusala, wrong view, and the feeling that accompanies that view is akusala. But the feeling that accompanies generosity itself is kusala. Larry 40142 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:17am Subject: Dhamma Thread (200) Dear Dhamma Friends, H. Multidoor classification on citta I. Arammana classification citta J. classic-object classification on citta 1. rupekekaarammanika cittas 2. saddekekaarammanika cittas 3. gandhekekaarammanika cittas 4. rasekekaarammanika cittas 5. photthabbekekaarammanika cittas 6. rupaadi-pancarammanika cittas 7. kamavacaraarammanika cittas 8. lokuttaravajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas 9. arahatta-magga-phala-vajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas 10.sabbathapi-sabbaarammanika cittas 11. mahaggataarammanika cittas 12. pannattaarammanika cittas 13.nibbaanaarammanika cittas So in classic-object classification there are 1. 25 kamavacaraarammanika cittas (10 dvipancavinnanas, 3 mano-dhatu, 11 tadarammanas, 1 hasituppada) 2. 6 mahaggataarammanika cittas (3 vinnanancayata cittas and 3 nevasanna-nasanna-ayatana cittas) 3. 21 pannattaarammanika cittas ( 15 rupavacara cittas, 3 akasanancayatas, 3 akincinnayatanas) 4. 8 nibbaanaarammanika cittas ( 4 maggas and 4 phalas) 5. 20 lokuttaravajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas (12 akusalas, 4 nana vippayutta mahakusala and 4 nana vi-kiriya) 6. 4(5) arahatta-magga-phala-vajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas ( 4 nana sampayutta mahakusala citta/ 1 5th rupa abhinnana ) 7. 5(6) sabbathapi-sabbaarammanika cittas ( 4 nana sampayutta mahakiriya, 1 manodvaravajjana/ 1 5th rupa kiria abhinnana) --------- 89 cittas in total May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40143 From: Larry Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:25am Subject: Re: What is time ? Hi Joop, In abhidhamma time is the water element, I think. No idea at all what that means. It might mean time is gravity, the "cohesion of material phenomena". I come to this conclusion by reasoning since movement is the arising of similar rupa in a slightly different place, we can account for this continuity by the water element. And movement is time. Alternately, we could say time is impermanence which, ultimately, is the arising and ceasing of one mind moment, but I think we need some kind of continuity for there to be time, hence water element. Larry 40144 From: Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:58am Subject: Problem Possibly Solved/Tep Hi, Tep, and all - In a message dated 12/24/04 12:57:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepyawa@m... writes: > Hi, Howard - > > There was a mail in my Inbox at 5:47 A.M. CT today (from Bhikkhu > Smahita). Right noe my local time is 11:58 A.M. > > > Regards, > > > Tep ====================== I received this post of yours, along with some other posts DSG and other Yahoo lists, as emails!! A day ago, I sent a form to Yahoo groups telling them of my problem, but I got no feedback. About an hour ago I sent them a second form repeating the problem, telling them that AOL says the problem doesn't lie with them, and mentioning another DSG member who is having the very same problem. It seems now that they have responded by doing something positive!! (Yay! Let's hear it for Yahoo!) If I run into further troubles, I'll handle it the same way, but I'll keep the matter off-list. (It doesn't really belong here. My apologies for that.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40145 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:32am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, James -----Original Message----- From: buddhatrue [mailto:buddhatrue@y...] Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 11:29 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Friend Jon, ... If I remember correctly, your argument was that breathing isn't an ultimate reality and therefore can't be directly experienced; therefore the Mindfulness of Breathing Sutta isn't really about mindfulness of breathing. Sound familiar? Jon: Only partly ;-)). As to ultimate reality, yes, I have said that there is no dhamma called 'breathing', and that what we take for breath appears to consciousness as different rupas through the body-door (hardness or softness, heat or cold, motion or pressure). As to the Mindfulness of Breathing Sutta, that is definitely about mindfulness of breathing, and I don't think I've ever suggested otherwise. What I have said, however, is that in my view it is not a 'how to' for the beginner. James: I wonder if anyone ever said to the Buddha, "Hey, what you're teaching is easier said than done!"? ;-) Jon: I see what you're getting at, but as I see it the passages we are talking about were spoken to monks who were already skilled in mindfulness of breathing, and were directed at showing those monks how that mindfulness of breathing could be further developed in a particular way (I thinki you will find words to this effect in the Sutta itself). James: I stress the development of jhana because it is a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path: jhana is Right Concentration. Additionally, practicing Jhana doesn't preclude practing dana, sila, samatha (do you mean mundane samatha, since jhana is samatha?) and vipassana also. It doesn't have to be either or. Jon: On my reading of the texts, it would be a mistake to equate Right Concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path with mundane jhana. For one thing, the path factors do not arise as individual dhammas, but only in combination and with right awareness as their leader. The development of the path factor of Right Concentration occurs at any moment of the development of insight. As I see it. Jon 40146 From: Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yahoo Groups Emails Hi, Larry - In a message dated 12/24/04 2:26:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I think it's a Yahoo problem. I just posted two replies from my own mail > program and neither showed up at Yahoo. However, you probably won't get > this one either so I'm not sure why I'm writing it. > > Larry > ======================= Thanks, Larry. I got it - as you can see. ;-) The emails seem to be coming in now. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40147 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika. Hi Philip, op 24-12-2004 00:50 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: .if there is nothing to rejoice at...this in itself is > an end >> to the latent tendency of sense desire... aversion... etc. Those > latent >> tendencies condition the attachment with feeling. etc. > > Phil: Not only "rejoice at", right? I mean, we are even more likely > to have aversion to sense objects - N: This aversion is condiitoned by attachment, so when that is eradicated there is no condition for aversion either. The first javanacittas in each life are cittas rooted in attachment. Ph: This is why the> question "is there seeing now?" is so important. Understanding that > it is a much more difficult question than it appears to be helps us > get at understanding this vital point at which proliferation occurs. > We grasp at features, grasp at "signs" N: Well expressed. Is there seeing now is a most helpful reminder. But when we explain it to others, we need many words. Lodewijk warns me to take care as to this. He says, people will fall over it. Ph: we begin to sense the black curtain of ignorance K Sujin talks about - we can get > discouraged. N: We can be glad to see it at least, not discouraged. No, No!!! > > Phil: I am finding so many helpful reminders about wise attention in > suttas. But it seems to me that the understanding can arise more and more quickly. We > proliferate all the time, but we come to put out the fire faster. > The sutta on yoniso manasikaara SN IX.11 tells us that we > are "being chewed" by our thoughts. N: My PTS has: inebriate, or intoxicated. majjati. (snipped) > Phil: I notice quite often in many suttas, it seems that the > Buddha mentions impermanence twice, and doesn't mention not-self. > Many times. For example, in the sutta about oneself as an island, (SN > XXII,43) there is "all form is impermanent, suffering and subject to > change." N: It depends on the aspect that is shown. See SN IV, (Salayatanavagga), it is repeated: what is impermanent is not self, what is dukkha is not self. All three are together. Ph: in terms of daily insight, intellectual insight, I wonder if it isn't easier to understand impermanence N: It depends on the individual. That is why there are three ways of liberation, I do not give details now. And also classifications of liberated individuals, such as body witness, etc. Ph: What does the Thai commentary say about > this "all form is impermanent, suffering and subject to change" that > appears so often. Why doesn't it mention not-self? N: I have no Co. of this sutta. Nina. 40148 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation, doubt, part 1. Dear Tep and Larry, op 22-12-2004 23:46 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: .. I think I should always try to make my messages as concise > as possible and stay away from asking any unnecessary question. N: Don't worry, your style is clear and concise. Questions are not superfluous. They make one think of aspects not noticed before. T quotes: when whatever appears is seen as only a conditioned nama or > rupa, one will mind less and less whether the object is welcome or not. > It is conditioned already... T: Most worldlings (including me) are not accustomed to discerning all > rupa and nama as 'conditioned' and 'not-self'. .. Yes, Nina, it has been extremely difficult for me to summon both > mindfulness and understanding at the instant when, say, a sound is > sensed, and let go of it without clinging (knowing clearly that it is only a > sound arising, nothing more). I have no idea how many billion times > more I have to make mental noting like this before it finally sticks. Do > you have any helpful 'tips' ? N: It is the same for all of us. To let go without clinging is later in the development of understanding. Not only sound but whatever appears can gradually be understood as an impersonal element. You ask for some tips. Take Larry's examples: These are only tangible object: it may burn like fire, than it is the element of heat. What aches may be a pressure of some hardness, then it is the element of earth or the element of wind or motion. We find our pains important, but there are only elements impinging on elements. This makes them less important. Thus, Htoo gives us a good reminder when giving this concise classification: <5. pathavi or consistency serves as tangible object 6. tejo or temperature serves as tangible object 7. vayo or resiliency serves as tangible object> These sober words can have a sobering effect upon us. Tangible object, all that can be experienced through touch is nothing else but these three elements. We mix nama and rupa and call them emotions, but feeling is pure nama, different form rupa. Feeling feels, it experiences an object. This is the first step to have less clinging to my pain, my feeling. First there has to be detachment from the idea of self. Finally there can be detachment from all objects. > T: The anumana sutta talks about the 'evil things' that should be > dispelled (e.g. having evil desires and submerged in them; being > crafty and fraudulent; overcome by anger, cursing and angry with a > grudge; praising oneself and disparaging others, > etc.). But my online copy probably excludes the akusala kamma > vipaka of criticizing others. Could you please fill in the blank for me? N: It is not said expressively that critizing others is akusala kamma. But this sutta points out the danger of akusala. One can conclude from this sutta that one should know one's own faults instead of disparaging others. Is one difficult to speak to or easy to speak to? When reading this sutta one becomes silent! We learn that it is easy to see others' faults, but what about oneself? It is an exhortation to develop what is skilled. Actually, satipatthana is implied in this sutta. See Dhammapada, vs. 252: > T: I have skeptical doubt when I read some suttas that seem to > contradict each other. N: There are many subjects we can have doubt about. Partly they can be cured by asking questions about knotty points, that is mentioned in the Co. as one of the conditions for right understanding. The teachings are in conformity with each other, but we should remember that different aspects are treated under different headings. If we do not see this we may think that there are contradictions. This forum is suitable for asking knotty questions. There are also points that are beyond our understanding, like all the details about kamma and result. That is the Buddha's domain. Some subjects we should not pursue endlessly, that will lead to madness, as the Expositor says. Or some subjects like the retention consciousness is beyond my understanding at the moment, but I put it aside and maybe later on it may become clearer. We have to accept that we cannot comprehend all the teachings. But intellectually we can understand enough to help us on the Way. We should pay attention especially to what is helpful for the development of understanding. T:I also have skeptical doubt about some steps of the anapanasati meditation, e.g. as described in MN 118 and AN X.60. N: It is intricate. This subject can be used in samatha and in vipassana. The Visuddhimagga explains how and when. When a text is not clear it is our own fault, the texts are not at fault. This is a separate subject, it cannot be dealt with in afew sentences. T: I have doubt about my Sila, Samadhi and Panna too. I think some of my doubts are caused by "inappropriate attention" to the dhamma in question. N: Right, doubt is caused by ayoniso manasikara, and it can be cured by right attention. Sila, Samadhi and Panna, they are closely connected and intertwined, they can be viewed under many aspects. Sila is dealt with in the Visuddhimagga from the lower levels even unto the highest, as abandoning by lokuttara citta (Vis. I, 140). I am always impressed by the Intro in the Vis. where a sutta is quoted: Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] And then there was hearing! Hi, Phil Philip wrote: > > > Hello all > > > Happy news to report. Thanks to the improved condition of our >computer, I could access the audio files for the first time. > > Good news. Also, the improved condition of your computer has made a big difference to how your posts are displayed on the screen or when printed out, meaning that it's now a lot easier to read them ;-)) So well done Naomi! Jon 40150 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 1:40pm Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Friend Jon, Jon: What I have said, however, is that in my view it is not a 'how to' for the beginner. James: Okay, sorry to have misquoted you then. But now I have another question for you: In Buddhism, who is a beginner, who is intermediate, and who is advanced? (Just wondering what these things mean to you). Jon: On my reading of the texts, it would be a mistake to equate Right Concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path with mundane jhana. James: Jon, that is what the Buddha said is Right Concentration! How could it be a mistake to equate Right Concentration with Jhana when the Buddha taught that? I am not sure what texts you are reading (maybe you could quote them?) but they must not be the right ones. Here is what the Buddha said: "An Analysis of the Path" "AND WHAT IS RIGHT CONCENTRATION? There is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. THIS IS CALLED RIGHT CONCENTRATION." (caps mine) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html Right concentration is jhana, plain and simple, and nothing is left open for interpretation. It cannot get any more obvious. Black and White…plain as the nose on your face…etc., etc., ;-)) Jon: For one thing, the path factors do not arise as individual dhammas, but only in combination and with right awareness as their leader. The development of the path factor of Right Concentration occurs at any moment of the development of insight. James: I do not believe in "path factors" which all arise at the same moment. This is a theory invented by Buddhaghosa, by taking one line of one sutta out of context, and it doesn't match the suttas. Read the above link for a proper understanding of the Noble Eightfold Path. Metta, James 40151 From: Philip Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:18pm Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,126 HI Larry Thanks for your feedback. > sutta quote refers to the eradication of latent tendencies (anusaya) > in path consciousness. I had read the sutta and assigned a much more mundane meaning to it. That is what I always tend to do - I'm sure most beginners do- and it can lead to misunderstanding. Could I ask you how you know/knew that this sutta refers to something more sublime? >The feeling that arises with a wholesome > (kusala) consciousness is kusala even though that consciousness > doesn't fully understand the nature of realities. If generosity > arises the feeling that accompanies that generosity is kusala > regardless of your understanding. For example, generosity could arise > based on conceit. The consciousness that conceives of conceit is > akusala, wrong view, and the feeling that accompanies that view is > akusala. But the feeling that accompanies generosity itself is > kusala. OK. I see. When I talk about understanding the nature of the realities, or not, it's a different citta. They are rising and falling so quickly. So in the example you've given - a kusala citta accompanied by generosity with kusala feeling >>>> an akusala citta with conceit about the generosity, and this would be with akusala feeling>>>>> And then perhaps a kusala citta with right understanding of the conceit, with right understanding of the impermanence etc of all the feeling, and that would be accompanied by kusala feeling? Of course that's a very rough picture of what really goes on. As you can see, I'm still very thick on citta processes, but does the above sound close to what really goes on? Thanks again. Metta, Phil 40152 From: Philip Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:04pm Subject: Re: Q. Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika. Hi Nina, and all > Ph: we begin to sense the black curtain of ignorance K Sujin talks about - > we can get > > discouraged. > N: We can be glad to see it at least, not discouraged. No, No!!! Ph: Maybe discouraged is not the right word, but I wouldn't say glad either. Sobered? Our ambitions our sobered because we come to see just how deeply attached we are, and we come to sense how long it will take. Yesterday I thought of a simile of a magnet and metal filings. Through thinking about khandas and the characteristics, I can intellectually impose a moment of detachment, a moment in which the metal filings are lifted by force from the surface of the magnet and there is an illusion of detachment. But then when the force of thinking is removed, it will be revealed (though I will usually be unaware of it) just how attached the metal filings still are! Perhaps in moments of understanding the force of the attachment is infinitesmally (sp?!?) weakened. But I don't think there are moments in which the force of attachment is turned right off, and I don't think there will be a moment in which that will happen. It will happen more gradually. The magnet will lose it's power to cause clinging gradually as moment after moment after moment of right understanding arise. This is just conceptualizing about a process which I haven't really begun to understand. Yes, I've come to sense how general, how deep, how pervasive clinging is. So in that sense, yes, seeing the truth of matters is something to be glad for, you're right. Encouraged that I am beginning to see the truth. No more denials. Perhaps this has something to do with samvega. Having come to see how pervasive clinging is, I might be more heedful of thinking, speaking and acting in a way that conditions deepening the clinging. The turban of fire. > N: It depe~ds on the aspect that is shown. See SN IV, (Salayatanavagga), it > is repeated: what is impermanent is not self, what is dukkha is not self. > All three are together. Ph: I see. Thanks. BTW, when the Buddha (or the translator that is!) says "subject to change" is there a subtle difference there between "impermanent?" It seems to get more at the conditioned nature of things. I sometimes wonder why "conditioned" isn't a fourth characteristic along with impermanent, dukkha and not-self. > N: It depends on the individual. That is why there are three ways of > liberation, I do not give details now. And also classifications of liberated > individuals, such as body witness, etc. When you have a moment, could you teach me (very briefly!) about the three ways of liberation (is that depending on which of the three characteristics arises?) and body witness etc? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 40153 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 2:28pm Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, James Thanks for these comments, and especially for quoting the passage on right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path. I'd like to check the sutta itself, but in the meantime I have a question about the passage. buddhatrue wrote: >James: Jon, that is what the Buddha said is Right Concentration! How >could it be a mistake to equate Right Concentration with Jhana when >the Buddha taught that? I am not sure what texts you are reading >(maybe you could quote them?) but they must not be the right ones. >Here is what the Buddha said: > >"An Analysis of the Path" > >"AND WHAT IS RIGHT CONCENTRATION? There is the case where a monk -- >quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) >qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure >born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. >With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & >remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, >unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- >internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in >equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of >pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the >Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable >abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the >earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains >in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither >pleasure nor pain. THIS IS CALLED RIGHT CONCENTRATION." (caps mine) >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html > > Is it your understanding of this passage that the first jhana is sufficient, and if not then why is it mentioned here? Put another way, why are all 4 jhanas mentioned rather than just the level that is sufficient? It's Christmas morning here, so Merry Christmas all. Jon 40154 From: Larry Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 10:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi Htoo, Thanks for your good wishes and thanks for the discussion on bodily pains. One more question, if I may. When consciousness is an object does that consciousness also have an object? If so, it would seem like there are two objects for one consciousness. Otherwise, it would seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) which itself doesn't have an object. I bring this up because I don't understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. Larry 40155 From: Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is time ? In a message dated 12/24/2004 2:02:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, jwromeijn@y... writes: And the question remains: what is time? Joop Hi Joop I don't believe there is such a "thing" as time. Time is merely the way that "movement is measured." TG 40156 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Otherwise, it would > seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) which > itself doesn't have an object. I bring this up because I don't > understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. Respectfully butting in, Larry and Htoo. At my viewpoint ( not directly supported by any Sutta I could remember, you see...it´s only an opinion), since Dhamma is Mind conjoined with the Mind´s object, you can get also the own Mind as its object, as images at a mirror. You get the eye-door, ear-door, nose-door and so on, and the mind-door at the last rank, where you catch up a glimpse of the images of consciousness in your own mind, linked or not with knowledge, tainted or not by ignorance, prompted up or not by your own accumulations. Well, that´s it! Mettaya, Ícaro 40157 From: Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi, Larry (and Htoo) - In a message dated 12/24/04 7:09:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Htoo, > > Thanks for your good wishes and thanks for the discussion on bodily > pains. One more question, if I may. When consciousness is an object > does that consciousness also have an object? If so, it would seem > like there are two objects for one consciousness. Otherwise, it would > seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) which > itself doesn't have an object. I bring this up because I don't > understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. > > Larry ====================== If I may butt in: Clearly citta B cannot have citta A as arammana at the time that citta A is the current citta. Thus, citta B must occur *after* citta A has ceased. But, then, at the time of citta B, there *is* no citta A; citta A simply does not then exist. And since it does not exist, it cannot be the object of citta B. And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a citta is, in fact, nonsense! So, does it mean anything at all to say "Citta B has citta A as object"? The only sense I can make of that is that it means that the object (or objective content) of citta B is a memory. It is a memory of citta A, which means some sort of mentally constructed/fabricated facsimile of citta A involving all or some of the aspects of that previous mindstate. So, the object is a sankharic construct, much akin to an idea. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40158 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a > citta is, in fact, nonsense! Could you clarify it better ? When you read a quote by an philosopher, for example, where he states unambiguously his thoughts(I am supposing that he is writing the True of his mind... a fact, let´s face it,that´s bit rare even at present day for the more honest thinker!).I am assimilating up with my mind the significant formating notes of the other mind... a citta is being an object for an other citta, through the means of written language! Corrections are welcome, dear upasaka! What do you think about it ? Mettaya, Ícaro 40159 From: Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. In a message dated 12/24/2004 12:39:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: Khemaka Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya) Hi Nina Thanks for that e-mail and the Khemaka Sutta. This is the exact Sutta I was looking for to quote for Sarah, but I couldn't remember the title or find it easily, so I found a couple of others that were suitable. TG 40160 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:26pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (200) Dear Dhamma Friends, Dhamma Thread (200) is also a big issue and I think it needs to be explained. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Dhamma Friends, H. Multidoor classification on citta I. Arammana classification citta J. classic-object classification on citta > 1. rupekekaarammanika cittas > 2. saddekekaarammanika cittas > 3. gandhekekaarammanika cittas > 4. rasekekaarammanika cittas > 5. photthabbekekaarammanika cittas > 6. rupaadi-pancarammanika cittas > 7. kamavacaraarammanika cittas > 8. lokuttaravajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas > 9. arahatta-magga-phala-vajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas > 10.sabbathapi-sabbaarammanika cittas > 11. mahaggataarammanika cittas > 12. pannattaarammanika cittas > 13.nibbaanaarammanika cittas So in classic-object classification there are 1. 25 kamavacaraarammanika cittas (10 dvipancavinnanas, 3 mano-dhatu, 11 tadarammanas, 1 hasituppada) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These 25 cittas always take 'kamavacara arammana' or 'kama object'. Kama object means 'objects of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, and touching and thoughts on these five senses'. 10 dvi-pancavinnana cittas are 5 couples of seeing-consciousness or eye-consciousness etc. That is 5 sense-consciousness. Couple here means 'akusala and kusala' couple. So there are 10 cittas in total. They are no doubt taking 'kama object'. 3 mano-dhatus are 1 pancadvaravajjana citta and 2 sampaticchana cittas. Here pancadvaravajjana citta always preceed pancavinnana citta. So it also takes 'kama object'. 2 sampaticchana cittas always immediately follow panca-vinnana citta. So it is also no doubt that these 2 cittas also take 'kama object'. So far 13 cittas take kama object. 11 tadarammana cittas only arise in kama bhumi in kama sattas or sensuous plane's beings. These 11 tadarammana cittas always follow kama-javana cittas. So they also no doubt take kama object. 1 hasituppada citta is a kiria citta. It is also a javana citta. It is ahetuka citta. It is somanassa citta. It is smiling-citta of arahats. When arahats take nibbana as object [that is when in phala samapatti], hasituppada citta cannot arise. When in jhana cittas, hasituppada citta does not arise. So the object of hasituppada is also kama object. It is related to 5 senses and thought on 5 senses. So there are 10 dvi-pancavinnana cittas, 3 mano-dhatu, 11 tadarammana cittas( 3 santirana and 8 mahavipaka cittas), and 1 hasituppada citta altogether 25 cittas take kamavacara arammana or kama object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2.6 mahaggataarammanika cittas (3 vinnanancayata cittas and 3 nevasanna-nasanna-ayatana cittas) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: These 6 cittas are also mahaggata cittas. In cittas, lokuttara cittas are the highest and kamavacara cittas are the lowest. In the middle is mahaggata cittas or jhana cittas. These mahaggata cittas are also called majjhima cittas. Majjhima means 'middle'. These 6 cittas themselves are mahaggata cittas. And their objects are also mahaggata cittas. In which way? When in 5th rupa jhana citta, there still have the object related to rupa. In arupa jhana, all rupa related objects are eliminated. 5th rupa jhana cittas spread the arammana covering the whole universe. When that rupa-related arammana is dispassionated, the meditator tries to practise without that arammana. I n stead of that arammana which fills the universe, when arupa jhana citta arise, there is no arammana. But as every citta has arammana, the devoided place is taken as an arammana. That devoided place is unbounded space or unlimited space or limitless space because initial arammana is also limitless then the space also has to be limitless. That limiteless space is not the space that astronauts and space ships deal with. But it is pannatti. When there is that arammana of limitless space and citta just contains one-pointedness or ekaggata as jhana factor and upekkha as vedana that citta is called arupa jhana citta. It is akasananca- ayatana citta. My home is my ayatana. Deva realm is deva-ayatana. The realm of that citta who has just ekaggata and vedana without any rupa related object is akasanancayatana realm. That citta in that realm is akasanancayatana citta. This akasa or boundless space is quite close to the object of 5th rupa jhana. So the meditator tries to ascend up further to 2nd arupa jhana. The space is limitless. So the depending cittas also seems limitless. When this is taken as object, that newly arising citta is called 2nd arupa jhana citta. That citta looks 1st arupa jhana citta. So mahaggata citta(2nd) take mahagatta(1st) arammana. In the same way, 4th arupa jhana cittas look back to 3rd arupa jhana cittas. So 3 of 2nd arupa jhana cittas and 3 of 4th arupa jhana cittas take the object mahaggata( or mahaggata cittas as their object) So these 6 cittas are mahaggataarammanika cittas or they are cittas that are taking mahagata cittas as their object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. 21 pannattaarammanika cittas ( 15 rupavacara cittas, 3 akasanancayatas, 3 akincinnayatanas) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: The akasa of 1st arupa jhana citta is not the space that scientists are using. This boundless space is idea and it is pannatti. So 3 of 1st arupa jhana cittas all take pannatti as their object. Again 2nd arupa jhana cittas which are vinnanaca-ayatana cittas are quite close(near) to the object akasa(boundless space). To abolish this the existing vinnana cittas that are 2nd arupa jhana cittas or vinnanaca-ayatana cittas are regarded as nothing. They are ignored. They are voided. When it is right time, the 3rd arupa jhana citta has to arise. Its object is the idea of nothingness or nothing. Actually all these arupa jhana cittas and their objects are very subtle and very intelligence-taking matters. As that nothingness is an idea or concept or pannatti, all 3 3rd arupa jhana cittas take panatti as their object. So 6 arupa jhana cittas take pannatti as their object. All 15 rupavacara cittas take pannatti as their object. 15 rupavacara cittas are 5 rupakusala cittas( which are 5 jhana cittas of non- arahats and they are kusala cittas and they are kamma-generating cittas), 5 rupavipaka cittas(which are the resultant cittas derived from rupakusala cittas), and 5 rupakiriya cittas(which are 5 jhana cittas of arahats and they are non-kamma-generating or inoperational or functional jhana cittas). All rupa jhanas or all rupa jhana cittas take pannatti as their object without any exception. If arahats are in jhana samapatti, they all are taking pannatti as their mind's object. Pannatta does not arise and does not fall away. So those who never know anicca, dukkha, anatta obtain jhanas and stay in jhana they will not see any anicca or dukkha or anatta. Instead they all will take jhana as nicca, sukha, and atta. Because pannatti cause illusion and it also cause illusion of permanancy. That is when it does not arise and does not fall away, it seems exist persistently-permanently and forever. In actually term, pannatti is not there are paramattha dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. 8 nibbaanaarammanika cittas ( 4 maggas and 4 phalas) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is no doubt. I think no extra explanations are needed here. 4 magga cittas are lokuttara kusala cittas and they all take nibbana as their object. Nibbana is cessation. As magga cittas see nibbana, their vipaka cittas called phala cittas also have to see nibbana as their object. These 8 cittas cannot take any other objects apart from nibbana. Even if they are lokuttara jhana cittas(40), their object is nibbana. There is no exception of these 40 cittas. That means all 40 cittas have to take nibbana as their object. All lokuttara jhana cittas are lokuttara dhamma and they take lokuttara object or nibbana. They CANNOT take kama object, mahaggata object, pannatta object, and jhana object. This is one of the most popular areas for debate such as 'Samma-samadhi must be jhanas etc etc'. I do not say 'Suttas are wrong'. But I think suttas readers may wrongly take with their poor penetrativity. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 5. 20 lokuttaravajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas (12 akusalas, 4 nana vippayutta mahakusala and 4 nana vi-kiriya) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here I used short-hand to save the space. 12 akusalas means 12 akusala cittas. They are 8 lobha mula cittas, 2 dosa mula cittas and 2 moha mula cittas. 4 nana vippayutta mahakusala means 4 mahakusala cittas without nana or without panna cetasikas. 4 nana v--kiriya here is short-hand for 4 nana vippayutta mahakiriya cittas. They are cittas of arahats. But still they all 4 do not have any nana or panna cetasika in their arising. Panna does not always arise even in arahats. These (12 + 4 + 4 = 20) cittas can take any object except lokuttara dhammas. There are 9 lokuttara dhammas. They are 4 magga cittas, 4 phala cittas and 1 nibbana dhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 6.4(5)arahatta-magga-phala-vajjita-sabbaarammanika cittas ( 4 nana sampayutta mahakusala citta/ 1 5th rupa abhinnana ) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here 5th rupa jhana abhinna or abhi-nana is 5th rupakusala abhinna citta. It is not a citta of arahats. So it does not deal with arahatta magga citta and arahatta phala citta. 4 cittas are kamavacara nana sampayutta mahakusala cittas. They are tihetuka cittas. They are just non-arahat cittas that is they are not kiriya cittas. So they cannot deal with arahatta magga and arahatta phala cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 7.5(6) sabbathapi-sabbaarammanika cittas (4 nana sampayutta mahakiriya, 1 manodvaravajjana/ 1 5th rupa kiria abhinnana) > --------- 89 cittas in total ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 5th jhana rupakiriya citta is a citta of arahats. So it can deal with arahatta phala. 4 nana sampayutta mahakiriya cittas are also cittas of arahats. So they all can deal with arahatta phala cittas. Manodvaravajjana citta deal with any kind of object wihtout any limitation. Because mano-dvaravajjana always preceeds any mano-dvara javana cittas. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing > PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they > will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just > give a reply to any of these posts. 40161 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:50pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (201) Dear Dhamma Friends, H. Multidoor classification on citta I. Arammana classification citta J. classic-object classification on citta K. vatthu classification on citta Before this classification, first vatthu has to be explained. Vatthu is translated as 'base'. It can also be 'ground'. It is dwelling-place for cittas. No citta can arise without any vatthu when in pancavokara bhumis. That is when there are 5 khandhas, all cittas have to depend on their specific vatthu or base or ground or dwelling place. Exception is all cittas of arupa brahma do not need any vatthu as they are arupa brahma and their cittas do not need any rupa. They do arise without rupa. But in all other realms, citta always arise on vatthu. Vatthus are dwelling place, vatthus are the ground for cittas, vatthus are the bases for cittas. Dwelling place is a bit awkward. 'Base' seems there needs suprastructures above the base. I think 'ground' would be much more appropraite for the term vatthu. In film-making procedures the very base is the novel or the story. The whole finished films or movies are based on the novel or the story. The film foots on the story or the novel. The movies foot on the story or the novel. The films or movies have to ground ( have to take ground) the story or the novel as their base. Jatakavatthu, ekabhikkhuvatthu etc are the story about jataka, the story about one bhikkhu respectively. There are 6 vatthus. They all are rupa dhammas. But nama dhamma have to depend on these 6 vatthus. They are 1. cakkhuvatthu 2. sotavatthu 3. ghanavatthu 4. jivhavatthu 5. kayavatthu 6. hadayavatthu May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40162 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:53pm Subject: Re: Meditation, doubt, part 1. Dear Nina (also Larry and Htoo)- I feel fortunate to be given the opportunity to have this on-going Dhamma discussion with you. I am grateful for the clear and right-to-the- point answers you have given. I also wish to thank Larry for the 'tips' that help one "let go without clinging": > We find our pains important, but there are only > elements impinging on elements. This makes > them less important. And, thanks to Htoo for giving us "a good reminder when giving this concise classification:" > 5. pathavi or consistency serves as tangible object > 6. tejo or temperature serves as tangible object > 7. vayo or resiliency serves as tangible object. I will have to remind myself (through a lot more real-time mental notings) that "Tangible object, all that can be experienced through touch is nothing else but these three elements". Great! And, Nina, your final words have drilled the main point through my mind, and they stick like glue too. > We mix nama and rupa and call them emotions, > but feeling is pure nama, different form rupa. > Feeling feels, it experiences an object. This is the > first step to have less clinging to my pain, my feeling. > First there has to be detachment from the idea of self. > Finally there can be detachment from all objects. About finding faults with other people, but forgetting our own faults: > We learn that it is easy to see others' faults, but what > about oneself? It is an exhortation to develop > what is skilled. Actually, satipatthana is implied in this sutta. Definitely! You have given me the right words, now I must practice. Other fine points for me to ponder over this weekend are: #1 > The teachings are in conformity with each other, > but we should remember that different aspects > are treated under different headings. > If we do not see this we may think that there are > contradictions. #2 > When a wise man, established well in Virtue > Develops Consciousness and Understanding, > Then as a bikkhu ardent and sagacious > He succeeds in disentangling this tangle (S. I, 13). Kindest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep and Larry, > op 22-12-2004 23:46 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > .. I think I should always try to make my messages as concise > > as possible and stay away from asking any unnecessary question. > N: Don't worry, your style is clear and concise. > Questions are not superfluous. They make one think of aspects not noticed > before. > T quotes: when whatever appears is seen as only a conditioned nama or > > rupa, one will mind less and less whether the object is welcome or not. > > It is conditioned already... > > T: Most worldlings (including me) are not accustomed to discerning all > > rupa and nama as 'conditioned' and 'not-self'. .. > Yes, Nina, it has been extremely difficult for me to summon both > > mindfulness and understanding at the instant when, say, a sound is > > sensed, and let go of it without clinging (knowing clearly that it is only a > > sound arising, nothing more). I have no idea how many billion times > > more I have to make mental noting like this before it finally sticks. Do > > you have any helpful 'tips' ? > N: It is the same for all of us. To let go without clinging is later in the > development of understanding. Not only sound but whatever appears can > gradually be understood as an impersonal element. > You ask for some tips. Take Larry's examples: kinds of bodily sensation such as a back ache or tooth ache or a cut > finger or a burn or upset stomach etc.? It seems difficult sometimes to > distinguish between bodily sensation and bodily feeling (vedana). > > These are only tangible object: it may burn like fire, than it is the > element of heat. What aches may be a pressure of some hardness, then it is > the element of earth or the element of wind or motion. We find our pains > important, but there are only elements impinging on elements. This makes > them less important. > Thus, Htoo gives us a good reminder when giving this concise classification: > <5. pathavi or consistency serves as tangible object > 6. tejo or temperature serves as tangible object > 7. vayo or resiliency serves as tangible object> > These sober words can have a sobering effect upon us. Tangible object, all > that can be experienced through touch is nothing else but these three > elements. > We mix nama and rupa and call them emotions, but feeling is pure nama, > different form rupa. Feeling feels, it experiences an object. This is the > first step to have less clinging to my pain, my feeling. First there has to > be detachment from the idea of self. Finally there can be detachment from > all objects. > > T: The anumana sutta talks about the 'evil things' that should be > > dispelled (e.g. having evil desires and submerged in them; being > > crafty and fraudulent; overcome by anger, cursing and angry with a > > grudge; praising oneself and disparaging others, > > etc.). But my online copy probably excludes the akusala kamma > > vipaka of criticizing others. Could you please fill in the blank for me? > N: It is not said expressively that critizing others is akusala kamma. But > this sutta points out the danger of akusala. One can conclude from this > sutta that one should know one's own faults instead of disparaging others. > Is one difficult to speak to or easy to speak to? When reading this sutta > one becomes silent! We learn that it is easy to see others' faults, but what > about oneself? It is an exhortation to develop what is skilled. Actually, > satipatthana is implied in this sutta. > See Dhammapada, vs. 252: are one's own; like chaff one winnows others' faults, but one's own one > hides, as a crafty fowler covers himself.> > > T: I have skeptical doubt when I read some suttas that seem to > > contradict each other. > N: There are many subjects we can have doubt about. Partly they can be cured > by asking questions about knotty points, that is mentioned in the Co. as one > of the conditions for right understanding. The teachings are in conformity > with each other, but we should remember that different aspects are treated > under different headings. If we do not see this we may think that there are > contradictions. This forum is suitable for asking knotty questions. > There are also points that are beyond our understanding, like all the > details about kamma and result. That is the Buddha's domain. Some subjects > we should not pursue endlessly, that will lead to madness, as the Expositor > says. Or some subjects like the retention consciousness is beyond my > understanding at the moment, but I put it aside and maybe later on it may > become clearer. We have to accept that we cannot comprehend all the > teachings. But intellectually we can understand enough to help us on the > Way. We should pay attention especially to what is helpful for the > development of understanding. > T:I also have skeptical doubt about some steps of > the anapanasati meditation, e.g. as described in MN 118 and AN X.60. > N: It is intricate. This subject can be used in samatha and in vipassana. > The Visuddhimagga explains how and when. When a text is not clear it is our > own fault, the texts are not at fault. This is a separate subject, it cannot > be dealt with in afew sentences. > T: I have doubt about my Sila, Samadhi and Panna too. I think some of > my doubts are caused by "inappropriate attention" to the dhamma in > question. > N: Right, doubt is caused by ayoniso manasikara, and it can be cured by > right attention. > Sila, Samadhi and Panna, they are closely connected and intertwined, they > can be viewed under many aspects. Sila is dealt with in the Visuddhimagga > from the lower levels even unto the highest, as abandoning by lokuttara > citta (Vis. I, 140). I am always impressed by the Intro in the Vis. where a > sutta is quoted: > Develops Consciousness and Understanding, > Then as a bikkhu ardent and sagacious > He succeeds in disentangling this tangle (S. I, 13). > Consciousness stands here for concentration. In a few words the connection > of the three is expressed. > > I would like to go more into the root of the hindrance of doubt, but that is > for next time. I hope others will butt in. > (to be continued) > Nina. 40163 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Dear Icaro, Your answer to Larry is good and very practical. Thanks for your answer. Larry question is interesting. I will try to answer by replying his post. I have not thought in that way as Larry thinks. Thanks larry for your questions. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > > Otherwise, it would > > seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) > which > > itself doesn't have an object. I bring this up because I don't > > understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. > > Respectfully butting in, Larry and Htoo. > At my viewpoint ( not directly supported by any Sutta I could > remember, you see...it´s only an opinion), since Dhamma is Mind > conjoined with the Mind´s object, you can get also the own Mind as > its object, as images at a mirror. You get the eye-door, ear-door, > nose-door and so on, and the mind-door at the last rank, where you > catch up a glimpse of the images of consciousness in your own mind, > linked or not with knowledge, tainted or not by ignorance, prompted > up or not by your own accumulations. > Well, that´s it! > > Mettaya, Ícaro 40164 From: Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 0:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi, Icaro - Nice to hear from you, BTW. Hope that all is well with you! In a message dated 12/24/04 8:47:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > > And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a > >citta is, in fact, nonsense! > > > Could you clarify it better ? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think so. I explained my thinking as clearly as I can. --------------------------------------- > When you read a quote by an philosopher, for example, where he > states unambiguously his thoughts(I am supposing that he is writing > the True of his mind... a fact, let´s face it,that´s bit rare even > at present day for the more honest thinker!).I am assimilating up > with my mind the significant formating notes of the other mind... a > citta is being an object for an other citta, through the means of > written language! > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Definitly not. During the thinking underlying the philosophical disquisition ther is a stream of objects, none of which is a citta. Please look at excatly what I wrote, and you'll see why. In any case, philosopher "explaining his thoughts" is dealing with concepts., and in thinking about the matter, no citta is the arammana of a citta. The explanation I gave stands on its own. If there is a clear refutation of it, then, fine - but I don't think there is one. ------------------------------------------- > Corrections are welcome, dear upasaka! What do you think about > it ? > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40165 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,126 Hi Philip, just butting in. op 24-12-2004 11:17 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > It would be profitable if there is knowing of the feeling as > impermanent etc. N: Feeling should be known as nama , different from rupa, but since we join these together, we do not know feeling as nama, nonself. First nama should be distinguished from rupa. Ph: Since we are usually incapable of understanding feeling in the > moment that it arises, these feeling-related cittas would almost > invariably be unprofitable. Is my understanding correct? N: yes, it is not difficult to know that akusala cittas arise more often than kusala cittas. There are many akusala cittas rooted in moha with indifferent feeling we do not know. Nina. 40166 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Dear Larry and Icaro and all, Dhamma discussion is good for all including discussing people and also for audience(readers). 'Kalena dhammasaakiccha eta.m mangala muttama.m'. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Discussion is below. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry wrote: Hi Htoo, Thanks for your good wishes and thanks for the discussion on bodily pains. One more question, if I may. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. It is pleasure. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry wrote: When consciousness is an object does that consciousness also have an object? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Larry, The considering mind contemplates on cittas like 'this is such a citta and that is so and so citta'. When this is happening the considering mind(citta) is the subject or actor or action-doer and it is citta. So it does have an object or arammana. That arammana or object is 'this citta..that citta..so and so citta.' Those cittas in questions do not have objects even though they hold their objects when they are actors or action-doers or subjects. For example, when you contemplate on a citta you are not contemplating on its object. As you know a citta has many many things that are connected with it. Examples things connected with a citta are 1. arammana or object of that citta 2. vatthu or base of that citta 3. cetasikas of that citta ( as many as there are ) 4. bhumi or realm of that citta 5. jati or class of that citta 6. sankharas of that citta 7. sampayutta dhammas of that citta When you just think that citta you are not going into its object. When you go into its object, here citta(of considering mind) will take 'its object' rather than 'that citta itself'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry wrote: If so, it would seem like there are two objects for one consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No. I have explained above. No citta can take 2 objects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry wrote: Otherwise, it would seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) which itself doesn't have an object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: When it is not the subject that is when it is not the actor in the story or when it is not the action-doer it does not have object. This does not means there are cittas without objects. But when citta is the object of another citta, that another citta does have an object and that object is the 1st mentioned citta. But that 1st mentioned citta when it is the object of another citta does not have any object. :-) Interesting questions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry wrote: I bring this up because I don't understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. Larry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: 'When rupa is a mind-door object..' When rupa serves as dhammarammana or mind-object that rupa becomes an object. It is the object of subject citta. Citta is action-doer. Mind-door objects rupas are a) 5 pasada rupas b)16 sukhuma rupas They do serve as object for the citta and they are arammana or object. Pancarammana or 5 senses may well be mind-door objects. With respect, Htoo Naing 40167 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 0:51pm Subject: Re: What is time ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Hi Joop, > > In abhidhamma time is the water element, I think. Hallo Larry, No. You should really read Karunadasa about it, you will like it.: http://www.lankalibrary.com/Bud/time.htm Het states clearly:time is a pannatti, thus a conceptual construct. In modern language: time is what happens if notings else happens Metta Joop 40168 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 4:42pm Subject: Re: Problem Possibly Solved/Tep Friend Howard, Thank you for your diligent search for the answer why the Yahoo! Server has performed erratically. It is very nice of you to take care of this DSG's problem on your own personal time. Next time if a problem of this kind recurs, please let me share the burden with you. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep, and all - > > In a message dated 12/24/04 12:57:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, > tepyawa@m... writes: > > > Hi, Howard - > > > > There was a mail in my Inbox at 5:47 A.M. CT today (from Bhikkhu > > Smahita). Right noe my local time is 11:58 A.M. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Tep > ====================== > I received this post of yours, along with some other posts DSG and > other Yahoo lists, as emails!! > A day ago, I sent a form to Yahoo groups telling them of my problem, > but I got no feedback. About an hour ago I sent them a second form repeating > the problem, telling them that AOL says the problem doesn't lie with them, and > mentioning another DSG member who is having the very same problem. It seems now > that they have responded by doing something positive!! (Yay! Let's hear it > for Yahoo!) If I run into further troubles, I'll handle it the same way, but > I'll keep the matter off-list. (It doesn't really belong here. My apologies for > that.) > > With metta, > Howard 40169 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 6:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Dear Howard, Larry, Icaro and All, Howard, we do not assume you butt in. Dhamma discussions are for members. I like your philosophy. But let us see your thought and how dhammas are working. With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: Hi, Larry (and Htoo) - [Larry's reply to Htoo] > In a message dated 12/24/04 7:09:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... > writes: > > > Hi Htoo, > > > > Thanks for your good wishes and thanks for the discussion on bodily > > pains. One more question, if I may. When consciousness is an object > > does that consciousness also have an object? If so, it would seem > > like there are two objects for one consciousness. Otherwise, it would > > seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) which > > itself doesn't have an object. I bring this up because I don't > > understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. > > > > Larry ====================== Howard wrote: If I may butt in: Clearly citta B cannot have citta A as arammana at the time that citta A is the current citta. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have read your whole reply to Larry's post. Here arises citta A. It passes away. Here arises citta B. That citta B take citta A as its object. This can well happen. You are right to say 'B cannot take A as its object when A is current citta'. But citta B take citta A as its object. But that object is the past object. It is not the current object. This is like our patisandhi citta. But patisandhi cittas may take any object depending on marana-asanna-javana-cittas of immediate past life. But our patisandhi citta truely took the past object and not the current object. So do our bhavanga cittas and so will our cuti citta. Regarding object or arammana there are 1. past object 2. current object 3. future object 4. timeless object ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: Thus, citta B must occur *after* citta A has ceased. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is very true. But Citta B take the past object as citta has passed away. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: But, then, at the time of citta B, there *is* no citta A; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: That is why I said it is the past object and not the current object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: ..citta A simply does not then exist. And since it does not exist, it cannot be the object of citta B. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course it can be. But as a past object. Like our bhavanga cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a citta is, in fact, nonsense! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No Howard. It is full of sense. When The Buddha did 'paccavakkhana vithi vara' all cittas had already passed away. The Buddha put His 'paccavakkhana' or 'contemplation' or 'scrutinization' on the past objects cittas that had already passed away. Full of sense, of course. :-) If you do not still believe please referred to Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: So, does it mean anything at all to say "Citta B has citta A as object"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. It means many thing. If this has not happened we will never know our cittas of different kinds. When we are discussing on dosa cittas at that time we may think of our experience with dosa like 'such and such time I was angry and that must be dosa that the text says' and so on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: The only sense I can make of that is that it means that the object (or objective content) of citta B is a memory. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here we are approaching another difficult area. As you said it may well seem memory. This memory is the word of every day language. Please do not mix things up. Concepts are pannatti. Memory the term that we use in daily lifeis a broad term. It is a mixture of sanna cetasikas, cittas, vedana cetasikas, and sankharas or formations or fabrications. When we think of citta A by citta B, citta A is still paramattha dhamma. It is citta. It is not pannatti. This is sure. But as an object it is the past object. I would like to suggest to study arammana very closely as a second look or multi-look. You know 'asevana paccaya'. If you study 'arammana' afresh then you would gain another experience and this will help your practice. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: It is a memory of citta A, which means some sort of mentally constructed/fabricated facsimile of citta A involving all or some of the aspects of that previous mindstate. So, the object is a sankharic construct, much akin to an idea. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Citta is citta. Citta is paramattha dhamma and it is never pannatti. Sankharic construction may arise if other things are put together with that pure citta A. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 40170 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:25pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Jon, The truth is I do not know where to begin to reply to your post. I am happy enough that I do not have to reply. So I won't. Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: jonoabb [mailto:jonoabb@y...] Sent: Thursday, 23 December 2004 12:45 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Herman (and Phil) Hope you don't mind me butting in here ;-)) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > Hi Phil, ... > What the mind gets fed, gets regurgitated. Round and round it goes. > I notice such a difference between when I wasn't active on the list > and now. Now throughout the day I find myself drafting replies here, > mentally raising points there, or just thinking about what someone > wrote. While during my absence, there was none of that. Right, there was none of that particular kind of reflecting (namely, reflecting on matters being discussed on the list); but there would have been thinking about other matters, since that is the nature of the mind. Even the arahant continues to think, but without akusala. > With the natural arising of seeing that there is the ongoing and > avid adding or mending of a brick, or a wall, or a storey (story) to > the mental house-of-cards, and seeing the disadvantage of that > activity, there will be a natural withdrawal from that. On my reading of the teachings, there is no disadvantage in thinking per se, and particularly in thinking that is kusala; the insight that leads to the eventual breaking down of that wall depends on kusala thinking of a particular kind for its development (I'm not of course saying that the thinking and the insight are the same). There are plenty of suttas that talk about hearing the dhamma, considering what has been heard and gaining a reflective acceptance of what has thus been understood, as part of the chain of conditions that culminate in enlightenment. Now as I understand matters, the thinking you are talking about here, i.e., thinking about points that have arisen for discussion on the list, is likely to include this very kind of kusala thinking. We should value it! No need to have as one's aim withdrawing from this kind of thinking. Jon [A similar post was sent previously but does not seem to have showed up on the list. Apologies for any duplication that may occur.] 40171 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:41pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi Htoo, Is there some level confusion going on here? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: ..citta A simply does not then exist. And since it does not exist, it cannot be the object of citta B. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course it can be. But as a past object. Like our bhavanga cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ==== Our? ==== Howard wrote: And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a citta is, in fact, nonsense! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: No Howard. It is full of sense. When The Buddha did 'paccavakkhana vithi vara' all cittas had already passed away. The Buddha put His 'paccavakkhana' or 'contemplation' or 'scrutinization' on the past objects cittas that had already passed away. Full of sense, of course. :-) If you do not still believe please referred to Abhidhamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: So, does it mean anything at all to say "Citta B has citta A as object"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. It means many thing. If this has not happened we will never know our cittas of different kinds. ======= Precisely who is this we that needs to know all these cittas of ours? Kind Regards Herman 40172 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > vangorko@x... writes: > Khemaka Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya) > > Hi Nina > > Thanks for that e-mail and the Khemaka Sutta. This is the exact Sutta I > was > looking for to quote for Sarah, but I couldn't remember the title or > find it > easily, so I found a couple of others that were suitable. ***** ..And this is the exact Sutta I referred to (amongst a couple of others) in my last post to you a few days ago;-): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/40098 I wrote: >TG, I think again it depends how one reads the suttas. For example, I discussed SN 22:89 with a friend where the non-returner Khemaka explains the lurking tendency of mana (conceit) remains. ‘This is mine’ refers to craving,taking objects as belonging to self. ‘This am I’ refers to mana and ‘This is my self’ refers to the personality view, sakkaya ditthi, identified with the 5 khandhas. . >See#25213 for my comments. Here ‘this am I’ refers to mana. ***** So are we all agreed now? All wrong views (including all kinds of sakkaya ditthi) are eradicated at the stage of sotapanna, but subtle conceits and clinging to self remain until arahantship. No wrong view involved, however. Metta, Sarah ========= 40173 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 0:13am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 83- Volition/cetanaa (m) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** Kusala kamma which is bhåvanå comprises studying and teaching Dhamma, samatha, tranquil meditation, and vipassanå, the development of right understanding of realities. The development of right understanding is the highest form of kusala kamma because it leads to the eradication of ignorance. When ignorance has been eradicated there are no more conditions for rebirth in a next life, one is freed from the cycle of birth and death. We have accumulated different degrees of kusala kamma and akusala kamma and they are capable of producing their appropriate results when there is opportunity for it. We may be inclined to think that the term “accumulation” only pertains to kamma, but not only kamma is accumulated, also tendencies to kusala and akusala are accumulated. When one steals, akusala kamma is accumulated which is capable of producing vipåka later on. However vipåka is not the only effect of this unwholesome deed. Also the tendency to stealing is accumulated and thus there are conditions that one steals again. We have the potential in us for all kinds of bad deeds and when there is an opportunity akusala cetanå can motivate a bad deed through body, speech and mind. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40174 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 0:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Icaro - > > Nice to hear from you, BTW. Hope that all is well with you! > > In a message dated 12/24/04 8:47:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, > icarofranca@y... writes: > > > > > And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a > > >citta is, in fact, nonsense! Friend Howard (and Icaro), Well, it could happen when one `knows' the mind of another, using psychic ability. In that case, a citta is the object of another citta. Metta, James 40175 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 0:31am Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Friend Jon, Gosh Jon, you didn't answer my other question. I really wanted to know what you think it means to be a beginner, intermediate, and advanced practitioner in Buddhism. Oh well, I will answer your question, however. Jon: Is it your understanding of this passage that the first jhana is sufficient, and if not then why is it mentioned here? Put another way, why are all 4 jhanas mentioned rather than just the level that is sufficient? James: I am not quite sure what you mean by "sufficient", but I am going to assume you mean `sufficient to be deemed Right Concentration'. Yes, the first jhana would be sufficient enough to be considered Right Concentration, but one who achieves the first jhana should not be satisfied with simply that. The four jhanas are really one jhana, it is just a greater purification of the jhana. In the first jhana the concentration is more gross and unsteady and then it becomes more and more refined all the way up to the fourth jhana. Therefore, to be really right Right Concentration, all four jhanas should be achieved. Does this answer your question? Metta, James Ps. Happy Holidays to you and everyone! 40176 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:sense-door, mind-door. Hi Phil, I cannot go into all your points now. But I just listened to a Thai discussion on sense-door and mind-door. Htoo reminded us of the importance of knowing the difference between nama and rupa. This is the first stage of insight knowledge. Sense-door and mind-door is an important subject connected with insight. It is a point often discussed with the Thai audience but not often with foreigners. We learnt through the Abhidhamma about different processes of cittas experiencing objects. We cannot and should not try to catch all such moments, but there is an important principle. Visible object is experienced by cittas of a sense-toor process and then by cittas of the subsequent mind-door process, after there have been bhavanga-cittas in between. Note: it is visible object, not an image which is then experienced by cittas of a mind-door process. Only later on we think of an image, a whole, a person, a thing. Rupa is experienced through a sense-door and through the mind-door. Nama is experienced only through the mind-door. Now, at this moment of seeing, it seems that seeing continues, and we do not realize that visible object is also experienced through the mind-door. The mind-door process is concealed by the sense-door process. When the time is ripe for the first stage of insight knowledge, it knows nama and rupa through the mind-door. Then one knows what a mind-door process exactly is, not before that. We see, that it is impossible to try to know now what the mind-door is, and this will cure us from wanting a quick fix. We can be realistic. On the other hand, there is no reason to be discouraged and think: how can I ever know this. Because it is only pañña itself that works its way. This can prevent us from trying to know everything quickly and also from becoming discouraged. Nina. op 24-12-2004 23:04 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Ph: Maybe discouraged is not the right word, but I wouldn't say glad > either. Sobered? 40177 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:47am Subject: Re: clinging to self with conceit. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi TG, ***** > So are we all agreed now? All wrong views (including all kinds of sakkaya > ditthi) are eradicated at the stage of sotapanna, but subtle conceits and > clinging to self remain until arahantship. No wrong view involved, > however. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========= Friend Sarah, I want to examine in detail the proposal that you put forth that the Sotapanna eliminates all wrong views. First I will explain how this is a logical fallacy and second I will explain how this is a logical fallacy put forth by the commentaries and not by the Buddha himself. The statement, "The Sotapanna eliminates all wrong views" is the logical fallacy of `Allness'. Allness is the belief that one can say everything there is to say about something (in order to achieve some kind of ideal perfection) Anytime someone uses the word "all" to describe something, it is usually false. This is because reality isn't absolute. As Albert Einstein wrote, "In so far as the statements of geometry speak about reality, they are not certain, and in so far as they are certain, they do not speak about reality." Allness statements are a logical fallacy which should be avoided because they are not true. Now, did the Buddha use allness statements? No, the Buddha always taught in relative terms. As to the wrong views eliminated by the Sotapanna, let me quote the Sallekha Sutta: 3. "Venerable sir, there are these various views that arise in the world concerning self-doctrines or world-doctrines.[2] Does the abandoning and discarding of such views come about in a monk who is only at the beginning of his [meditative] reflections?"[3] "Cunda, as to those several views that arise in the world concerning self-doctrines and world-doctrines, if [the object] in which[4] these views arise, in which they underlie and become active,[5] is seen with right wisdom[6] as it actually is,[7] thus: 'This is not mine,[8] this I am not,[9] this is not my self'[10] -- then the abandoning of these views, their discarding,[11] takes place in him [who thus sees]. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn008.html So, here we have "various views concerning self-doctrines or world- doctrines" and the Buddha states that these "various views" will be eliminated in one who actually sees the root of these views thus: "This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self". This sounds very reasonable to me and wise. However, this is what the commentary to this sutta states, "Comy.: "Both terms are synonymous with the ultimate eradication of wrong views, taking place at stream- entry when the fetter of personality belief is destroyed." Now wait a second, the sutta talks about VARIOUS wrong views and the commentary is talking about ALL wrong views. This is a logical fallacy put forth by the commentary and isn't something in the original sutta. My conclusion is that the Sotapanna hasn't eliminated ALL wrong views because he/she still has the fetter of ignorance. However, the Sotapanna has eliminated various wrong views which depend on a false view of self. Metta, James 40178 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] the jhanas (by Ajahn Brahmavamso) - ebook version Hi Frank, Thanks so much for sparing a few more nanoseconds for Herman and myself and allowing me to share your news with friends on DSG. I hope you have seen James’s letter of thanks to you (yesterday) too. And yes, pls do add your thoughts on the B.Bodhi jhana thread when you feel inclined to do so - we won't socialize;-). Metta and best wishes for the New Year coming soon…. Sounds like a good lifestyle in Hawaii! – Sarah ======= --- Frank wrote: > Hi Herman and Sarah, > I am Frank K to confirm your suspicions. I'm on the > big island of Hawaii now, my new house on a 1 acre lot > is in the process of construction. I'm living in the > kitchen/living room right now, and the rest of the > house will take about 4 more months to complete. I'm > still subsitute teaching for grades 6-12 about 2-3 > times a week, I'm now teaching yoga twice a week at > the local health club <…> >My basic daily > pattern when I have a full day off is to alternate > sitting meidtaiton, yoga, or taiji about every 30-60 > min, for about a 2-4 hour stretch, eat and rest for > 1-1.5 hr, and then resume pattern. nap if necessary, > sleep early at 9 or 10pm, wake up at 4am. In tropical > climate, weather is nice and warm at 4am (low 60's > Fahr. is the worst it gets). > I did scan a few posts on the B.Bodhi jhana thread, > and as usual I felt he had some really excellent > points. I might add my thoughts to the thread later on > dsg. <…> >I replied offline just because as in my > physical social life, I try to keep a low profile and > discourage socialization which detracts from time I > could be meditating :-) Good to talk to you guys > again, and happy festivus. > > -fk 40179 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi, Htoo I am amazed at your output and your detailed knowledge of Abhidhamma. Thanks for this careful explanation to Larry below. Just to supplement a little about general sense and special senses as mentioned by you.. htootintnaing wrote: > In body there are many sense receptors. This is topic about body- > >sense-receptors. Special-sense-receptors are retina, organ or Corti, >olfactory cells, and taste buds. Body-sense-receptors are for general >senses not for special senses. > >Eyes also carry general sense. Ears also bear general sense. Nose >also knows general sense. Tougue also knows touch sense. But the >sense receptors that know general senses in the eyes are not >concerned with special senses. > >Among general senses, there are many different senses and they are >each carried by different pathways. Some are carried to the brain via >anterior pathway in the spinal cord. Some fibres are brought to the >brain through lateral pathways of the spinal cord. There are also >some fibres that travel up by the way of posterior path in the spinal >cord. > >Actually these are scientific realities. > As you say, the classification of senses into 'general' and 'special' is a conventional/scientific one. From the standpoint of dhammas there are 5 senses only (excluding the mind), but of these the body sensitivity is found all over the body even at the point of the other 4 conventional senses. Thus when there is painful feeling because of the severity of the experience through, say, eye door (extremely bright light) or ear door (extremely loud or screeching sound) that painful feeling is likely to be bodily painful feeling accompanying an impingement on the body sense at the site of the (conventional) eye or ear. Thanks again for you detailed explanations. Jon > There are sense of fine >touch like a single fibre of bird fur, sense of crude touch like >elephant foot, sense of pressure, sense of cold, sense of warmth, >sense of pain, sense of differentiation, sense of thrilling, sense of >vibration, and many others. > >But all these physical matters are just the work stations for mind >faculties. > >Once namarupapariccheda nana arises rupa and nama will be clearly >understood. When body senses are known, these senses will be just >seen as they are in terms of ultimate realities. Not in terms of >scientific classifications of senses. > >Back-ache, tooth-ache, cut-finger, burn, scold, upset stomach? > >Scientific basis for back-ache will be complicated with terminology. >I think there is no back-ache in dhamma. If we talk on that back-ache >then I think I might be just a mixture of 'tejo-photthabba' and 'vayo- >photthabba'. A mixture means sometimes tejo and sometimes vayo or >kayavinnana cittas are arising alternatively as receiving tejo- >phothabba and vayo-photthabba. > >When vayo predominates back-ache would seem to be rovering >horizontally or vertically along the backbones or down to bottom. >When tejo predominates back-ache would like pain. When that pain >eases off, there may notice some components of heat in the back and >then it passes away. > >Tooth-ache is more in the side of tejo-photthabba. But sometimes it >goes up to the head and may micmic head-ache. Sometimes it goes down >to the neckspine and may micmic spondylosis. > >Cut-finger is highly intense tejo-photthabba, I think. Burn is >apparent that mostly it is tejo-photthabba but vayo may also invlove. >Scold is almost the same with burn but more vayo involves than in >case of burn. > >Upset stomuch is also a mixture. Sometimes it may be perceived as >vayo-photthabba and sometimes as tejo-photthabba. > >In science even pain is subclassified into many types. Everyone knows >pain sense. Some may notice its early phase of arising and its >disappearance phase. Just before disappearing that pain is like some >warm heat. > >I think we should be able to separate out nama and rupa at least at >theoretical level. I notice here in Yahoo groups that there are many >experts in dhamma. They each have their good and excellent >proficiency in dhamma at least at some areas. But sometimes some seem >not able to differentiate between nama dhamma and rupa dhamma even in >theoretical knowledge. > >May this message help you and others. > >With Unlimited Metta, > >Htoo Naing > >PS: Seasonal greeting_ 'Merry Christmas'. > 40180 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:24am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hi Sarah, Lions and hyenas live in a cycle of perpetual murder. If the offering of your opinion can only become food for either lions or hyenas, then it is as unskillful as all-hell. I'm not buying into this nonsense. Why are you? Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: sarah abbott [mailto:sarahprocterabbott@y...] Sent: Saturday, 25 December 2004 7:06 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > vangorko@x... writes: > Khemaka Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya) > > Hi Nina > > Thanks for that e-mail and the Khemaka Sutta. This is the exact Sutta I > was > looking for to quote for Sarah, but I couldn't remember the title or > find it > easily, so I found a couple of others that were suitable. ***** ..And this is the exact Sutta I referred to (amongst a couple of others) in my last post to you a few days ago;-): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/40098 I wrote: >TG, I think again it depends how one reads the suttas. For example, I discussed SN 22:89 with a friend where the non-returner Khemaka explains the lurking tendency of mana (conceit) remains. 'This is mine' refers to craving,taking objects as belonging to self. 'This am I' refers to mana and 'This is my self' refers to the personality view, sakkaya ditthi, identified with the 5 khandhas. . >See#25213 for my comments. Here 'this am I' refers to mana. ***** So are we all agreed now? All wrong views (including all kinds of sakkaya ditthi) are eradicated at the stage of sotapanna, but subtle conceits and clinging to self remain until arahantship. No wrong view involved, however. Metta, Sarah ========= 40181 From: Date: Fri Dec 24, 2004 11:45pm Subject: Re: [d-l] Dhamma Thread (201) Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 12/25/04 12:48:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > There are 6 vatthus. They all are rupa dhammas. But nama dhamma have > to depend on these 6 vatthus. > > They are > > 1. cakkhuvatthu > 2. sotavatthu > 3. ghanavatthu > 4. jivhavatthu > 5. kayavatthu > 6. hadayavatthu > ========================== These 6 sense bases are supposedly rupas. They are eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and heart base, respectively. These cannot be the physical organs of eye, ear, se, tongue, body, and heart (or brain, or entire nervous system), for all those are pa~n~natti. Rupas don't "hang around," but arise and fall quickly. So, without much Pali, please, because the Pali, beyond a few words, only hinders my understanding, and the Buddha approved of teaching in the vernacular anyway: 1) What exactly are these rupas, 2) "where" do these rupas make their appearance, 3) through what sense door(s) are they known, and 4) what relationship is there between each one of them and the corresponding conventional organ? It may well be that you have, in the very many and detailed posts on Abhidhamma that came earlier, thoroughly explained this, but I plead Pali-ignorance and a kind of glazing-over-of-the-eyes syndrome in response to lists upon lists as my excuse for not having picked up on an explanation. In the case that this has aready been well explained, I apologize, but I do request even now whatever clarification you and others could provide. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40182 From: Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi, Htoo (and Larry & Icaro) - In a message dated 12/25/04 1:35:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Howard, Larry, Icaro and All, > > Howard, we do not assume you butt in. Dhamma discussions are for > members. I like your philosophy. But let us see your thought and how > dhammas are working. > > With much respect, > > Htoo Naing > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > Hi, Larry (and Htoo) - > > [Larry's reply to Htoo] > > >In a message dated 12/24/04 7:09:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, > LBIDD@w... > >writes: > > > >>Hi Htoo, > >> > >>Thanks for your good wishes and thanks for the discussion on > bodily > >>pains. One more question, if I may. When consciousness is an > object > >>does that consciousness also have an object? If so, it would seem > >>like there are two objects for one consciousness. Otherwise, it > would > >>seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) > which > >>itself doesn't have an object. I bring this up because I don't > >>understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. > >> > >>Larry > ====================== > Howard wrote: > > If I may butt in: Clearly citta B cannot have citta A as > arammana at the time that citta A is the current citta. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > I have read your whole reply to Larry's post. > > Here arises citta A. It passes away. > > Here arises citta B. That citta B take citta A as its object. > > This can well happen. You are right to say 'B cannot take A as its > object when A is current citta'. > > But citta B take citta A as its object. But that object is the past > object. It is not the current object. > -------------------------------------- Howard: At the time of citta B, citta A is nonexistent. Citta B has an object. It may be a memory of citta A, it may be a concept of citta A - but it cannot be citta A, because there IS NO citta A! --------------------------------------- > > This is like our patisandhi citta. But patisandhi cittas may take any > object depending on marana-asanna-javana-cittas of immediate past > life. But our patisandhi citta truely took the past object and not > the current object. So do our bhavanga cittas and so will our cuti > citta. > --------------------------------------- Howard: This is, in fact, imprecise, merely conventional speech. What arises and ceases is gone for good. -------------------------------------- > > Regarding object or arammana there are > > 1. past object > 2. current object > 3. future object > 4. timeless object > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > Thus, citta B must occur *after* citta A has ceased. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: This is very true. But Citta B take the past object as citta > has passed away. > --------------------------------------- Howard: The reasserting of a claim doesn't constitute proof of that claim. --------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > But, then, at the time of citta B, there *is* no citta A; > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: That is why I said it is the past object and not the current > object. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > ..citta A simply does not then exist. And since it does not exist, it > cannot be the object of citta B. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: Of course it can be. But as a past object. Like our bhavanga > cittas. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: With respect, this, again, is assertion without proof. (Also, to speak of a "past object" is confusing, because it literally means something that used to be an object. What you mean by "past object", I believe, is a dhamma that existed in the past and is the object right now of the current mindstate. ut that is the whole issue. That past phenomenon lo longer exists, and it cannot be the object of the current mindstate except in a manner of speaking. What is the actual current object is a memory or a concept, but not the past dhamma, because that does not exist. The idea that a dhamma can exist in a throughout the three times is a Sarvastivadin notion, it is eternalist in flavor, and is one of the reasons that Saravastivada was considered "hina" by the early Mahayanists. ---------------------------------------------- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a > citta is, in fact, nonsense! > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: No Howard. It is full of sense. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, it seems we disagree. ;-) ------------------------------------------- > > When The Buddha did 'paccavakkhana vithi vara' all cittas had already > passed away. The Buddha put His 'paccavakkhana' or 'contemplation' > or 'scrutinization' on the past objects cittas that had already > passed away. Full of sense, of course. :-) If you do not still > believe please referred to Abhidhamma. > ------------------------------------- Howard: The problem is that of precision of speech. I leave the remainder of your post without further comment, Htoo. ------------------------------------ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > So, does it mean anything at all to say "Citta B has citta A > as object"? > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Yes. It means many thing. If this has not happened we will never know > our cittas of different kinds. > > When we are discussing on dosa cittas at that time we may think of > our experience with dosa like 'such and such time I was angry and > that must be dosa that the text says' and so on. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > The only sense I can make of that is that it means that the object > (or objective content) of citta B is a memory. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Here we are approaching another difficult area. As you said it may > well seem memory. This memory is the word of every day language. > > Please do not mix things up. Concepts are pannatti. Memory the term > that we use in daily lifeis a broad term. It is a mixture of sanna > cetasikas, cittas, vedana cetasikas, and sankharas or formations or > fabrications. > > When we think of citta A by citta B, citta A is still paramattha > dhamma. It is citta. It is not pannatti. This is sure. But as an > object it is the past object. > > I would like to suggest to study arammana very closely as a second > look or multi-look. You know 'asevana paccaya'. If you > study 'arammana' afresh then you would gain another experience and > this will help your practice. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > It is a memory of citta A, which means some sort of mentally > constructed/fabricated facsimile of citta A involving > all or some of the aspects of that previous mindstate. So, the object > is a sankharic construct, much akin to an idea. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > Citta is citta. Citta is paramattha dhamma and it is never pannatti. > Sankharic construction may arise if other things are put together > with that pure citta A. > > May you be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40183 From: Philip Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:57am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV,126 Hi Larry, and al > > Larry: sutta quote refers to the eradication of latent tendencies > (anusaya) > > in path consciousness. > > Phil: I had read the sutta and assigned a much more mundane meaning to > it. That is what I always tend to do - I'm sure most beginners do- > and it can lead to misunderstanding. Could I ask you how you > know/knew that this sutta refers to something more sublime? This afternoon after posting the above I came across the Six Sets of Six Sutta (MN 148) and see as you said that the eradication of latent tendencies is what at's issue in the previous more abbreviated sutta passage I posted from SN. Here is from the Six Set of Six: "When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one does not delight in it, welcome it, and remain holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust does not lie within one." (and variations on this for painful feeling and neither/nor feeling.) So please disregard the question above. I guess I found the answer. Metta, Phil p.s thanks for your feedback in the other thread, Nina. Sorry for dumping so many rambling comments and questions on you - though it's nothing new. I'm not feeling discouraged tonight - just well aware of how insiduous clinging is, and grateful to the Buddha for showing the way to begin every so gradually to loosen the binds that tie. If there is real understanding of the First and Second Noble Truth arising, I can feel very grateful. Dhamma is not just a feel-good game anymore if that is the case. 40184 From: Philip Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:14am Subject: Re: Seasons greetings Season's greetings to all. Christmas is not a big deal in Japan and I was off to work as on any other day, having forgotten it was Christmas, but fortunately Naomi sang a bit of a sappy Christmas song in my ear before I left (the crappy one by Paul McCartney that goes "simply having a wonderful Xmas time") and it ran through my head as I walked to the station. And suddenly there was mudita at the thought of people all over the world - especially children - waking up to presents, and loved ones getting together, and so on, though for me it was just another work day with no festivites whatsoever. Very clear and very good mudita. Thanks to Naomi for that nice Christmas present. Akusala and kusala cittas come and go when I think of Christmas, beyond my control, as when I think of anything else. In this case a crappy song that I had previously disliked was a decisive condition for the arising of a moment of kusala. Or was Naomi's voice the decisive condition? Anyways, I hope you are simply having a wonderful...aargh it's still going through my head!!! Metta, Phil 40185 From: dsgmods Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:16am Subject: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi Howard I hope the reference that I gave last time from the Mulapariyaya Sutta and its commentary and subcommentary has shown that the reference to dhammas bearing their own reality does not give rise to the problems you suggested it does. I will now offer some comments on the rest of your post. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > > 5. Conditions as relations between dhammas > > Dhammas are related to each other in multiple ways. These relations are > > termed 'conditions' (Pali: paccaya). > > > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > That is an odd use of language, though, Jon, although I agree that the > Patthana uses it. The dhammas are the actual conditions. I don't have a clue > what the relations among them are. When there is a relation of determination > between dhammas A, B, C, D and dhamma E, the dhammas A,B, C, D are called the > conditions and dhamma E is called the conditioned element. A, B, C, and D are > conditions for E. What the *relation* is, I don't know. I think that, as Sarah > impled, there are just the conditions. And YET, relations among dhammas do > hold. A paradox, no? I'm afraid I don't see the paradox. To say, for example that (a) Dhamma A conditions Dhamma X by way of kamma condition, and (b) the relationship between Dh A and Dh X is that of cause and result, seems to be just different ways of saying the same thing. Where's the problem? > > 6. Characteristics and conditions -- dhammas or concepts? > > Characteristics and conditions are not dhammas, since they do not bear > > their own characteristics, but neither are they concepts. > > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > Wow, the ontology is certainly proliferating! (And whatever happened > to "the all"?) Sorry Howard but I'm not with you here. Would you mind spelling out your point more clearly. Thanks. > > There is > > no rule of abhidhamma that says that 'If it's not a dhamma it must be a > > concept' or vice versa. > > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, Jon, at this point it seems to me that you are opening the door > to the possibility that I put forward of mind-door objects including items > that do not appear in any of the khandhas, and of the ayatana breakdown going > further than the khandha breakdown. > ---------------------------------------- J: I was referring to conditions, characteristics, niyamas and the like as already discussed. I don't think what I said has any further implications. > > Well, those are my comments. BTW, it would not surprise me if there are > > some differences between what I say here and what others of the (supposed) > > DSG camp say. There is of course no such thing as the "DSG point of view" > > ;-)) > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I *do* see here some differences in your perspective, greater > flexibility especially, from that of some other Abhidhammikas here. I find that > heartening, and I find most heartening your final sentence above! ;-) Glad to be the cause for some positive reaction ;-)). Jon 40186 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:44am Subject: [dsg] Re:sense-door, mind-door. Hi, Nina (and Phil) - > Now, at this moment of seeing, it seems that seeing continues, > and we do not realize that visible object is also experienced > through the mind-door. > The mind-door process is concealed by the sense-door process. > When the time is ripe for the first stage of insight knowledge, > it knows nama and rupa through the mind-door. > Then one knows what a mind-door process exactly is, > not before that. > We see, that it is impossible to try to know now what the mind-door is, > and this will cure us from wanting a quick fix. I am interested in the interval between the state in which "the mind-door process is concealed by the sense-door process" and the state "when the time is ripe for the first stage of insight knowledge, it knows nama and rupa through the mind-door". You have hinted that "it is only panna itself that works its way". What are the supporting conditions for panna so that it can work its way until the first ray of insight knowledge appears? Is contemplating nama- rupa as " not mine, not 'I', not my 'self' " both necessary and sufficient? Kindest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Phil, > I cannot go into all your points now. But I just listened to a Thai > discussion on sense-door and mind-door. Htoo reminded us of the importance > of knowing the difference between nama and rupa. This is the first stage of > insight knowledge. Sense-door and mind-door is an important subject > connected with insight. It is a point often discussed with the Thai > audience but not often with foreigners. > We learnt through the Abhidhamma about different processes of cittas > experiencing objects. We cannot and should not try to catch all such > moments, but there is an important principle. Visible object is experienced > by cittas of a sense-door process and then by cittas of the subsequent > mind-door process, after there have been bhavanga-cittas in between. > Note: it is visible object, not an image which is then experienced by cittas > of a mind-door process. Only later on we think of an image, a whole, a > person, a thing. > Rupa is experienced through a sense-door and through the mind- door. Nama is > experienced only through the mind-door. Now, at this moment of seeing, it > seems that seeing continues, and we do not realize that visible object is > also experienced through the mind-door. The mind-door process is concealed > by the sense-door process. > When the time is ripe for the first stage of insight knowledge, it knows > nama and rupa through the mind-door. Then one knows what a mind- door process > exactly is, not before that. > We see, that it is impossible to try to know now what the mind-door is, and > this will cure us from wanting a quick fix. We can be realistic. On the > other hand, there is no reason to be discouraged and think: how can I ever > know this. Because it is only pañña itself that works its way. This can > prevent us from trying to know everything quickly and also from becoming > discouraged. > Nina. > op 24-12-2004 23:04 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > > Ph: Maybe discouraged is not the right word, but I wouldn't say glad > > either. Sobered? 40187 From: Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 1:52am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/25/04 9:16:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, dsgmods@y... writes: > > Hi Howard > > I hope the reference that I gave last time from the Mulapariyaya Sutta > and its commentary and subcommentary has shown that the reference to > dhammas bearing their own reality does not give rise to the problems > you suggested it does. I will now offer some comments on the rest of > your post. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Jon - > ... > >>5. Conditions as relations between dhammas > >>Dhammas are related to each other in multiple ways. These > relations are > >>termed 'conditions' (Pali: paccaya). > >> > >------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > That is an odd use of language, though, Jon, although I agree > that the > >Patthana uses it. The dhammas are the actual conditions. I don't > have a clue > >what the relations among them are. When there is a relation of > determination > >between dhammas A, B, C, D and dhamma E, the dhammas A,B, C, D are > called the > >conditions and dhamma E is called the conditioned element. A, B, C, > and D are > >conditions for E. What the *relation* is, I don't know. I think > that, as Sarah > >impled, there are just the conditions. And YET, relations among > dhammas do > >hold. A paradox, no? > > I'm afraid I don't see the paradox. To say, for example that > (a) Dhamma A conditions Dhamma X by way of kamma condition, and > (b) the relationship between Dh A and Dh X is that of cause and result, > seems to be just different ways of saying the same thing. Where's the > problem? > --------------------------------------- Howard: I understand an assertion that whenever conditions of types A, B, C, and D arise, also a condition of type E arises or will arise. The question is whether a true assertion of such a sort is claiming the existence of a type of relation. If so, there then arises the question of exactly what sort of phenomenon a relation is. One answer is that there are no such phenomena as relations. That they are concept-only, and to speak of relations is to engage in mewrely conventional speech. This seems to be the approach that Sarah is taking, and I'm increasingly persuaded that that is correct. ------------------------------------------ > > >>6. Characteristics and conditions -- dhammas or concepts? > >>Characteristics and conditions are not dhammas, since they do not bear > >>their own characteristics, but neither are they concepts. > >> > >--------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Wow, the ontology is certainly proliferating! (And whatever > happened > >to "the all"?) > ----------------------------------------- Howard: My point was the following: If characteristics and conditions exist but they are neither pa~n~natti nor (paramattha) dhammas, then they fall into a new category! ----------------------------------------------- > > Sorry Howard but I'm not with you here. Would you mind spelling out > your point more clearly. Thanks. > > >>There is > >>no rule of abhidhamma that says that 'If it's not a dhamma it must > be a > >>concept' or vice versa. > >> > >---------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Well, Jon, at this point it seems to me that you are opening > the door > >to the possibility that I put forward of mind-door objects including > items > >that do not appear in any of the khandhas, and of the ayatana > breakdown going > >further than the khandha breakdown. > >---------------------------------------- > > J: I was referring to conditions, characteristics, niyamas and the > like as already discussed. I don't think what I said has any further > implications. > > >>Well, those are my comments. BTW, it would not surprise me if > there are > >>some differences between what I say here and what others of the > (supposed) > >>DSG camp say. There is of course no such thing as the "DSG point > of view" > >>;-)) > >> > >-------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I *do* see here some differences in your perspective, greater > >flexibility especially, from that of some other Abhidhammikas here. > I find that > >heartening, and I find most heartening your final sentence above! ;-) > > Glad to be the cause for some positive reaction ;-)). > > Jon > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40188 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi Larry, this seems to be connected with my post to Phil on sense-door and mind-door. op 24-12-2004 19:02 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: When consciousness is an object > does that consciousness also have an object? N: When a citta is the object of another citta, and suppose this is a citta with pañña, the last citta just attends to the characteristic of citta as nama, as a dhamma that experiences something. That is all, no concern or thinking of what the object of that citta is. L: If so, it would seem > like there are two objects for one consciousness. N: Impossible. Each citta experiences an object, and it experiences one object at a time. Otherwise, it would > seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) which > itself doesn't have an object. I bring this up because I don't > understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. N: As said to Phil, rupa can be experienced by cittas of a mind-door process. That is: all sense objects, and also those rupas Htoo mentions as dhammaarammana, rupas that can only be experienced through the mind-door. These are: a) 5 pasada rupas b)16 sukhuma rupas I do not see any problem here, but I do not know whether this answers your questions. Nina. 40189 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 7:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Six Sixes. Hi Phil, Larry and you in your previous postings were both right. Read the beginning of the Six Set of > Six: He, being impinged on by a pleasant feeling... a tendency to attachment is latent in him...> Thus, in many suttas we see this pattern: he is not aware... he is aware. Nina. op 25-12-2004 14:57 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > This afternoon after posting the above I came across the Six Sets > of Six Sutta (MN 148) and see as you said that the eradication of > latent tendencies is what at's issue in the previous more abbreviated > sutta passage I posted from SN. Here is from the Six Set of > Six: "When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one does not > delight in it, welcome it, and remain holding to it, then the > underlying tendency to lust does not lie within one." 40190 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 7:19am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Howard My apologies for sending this message out from the moderators' account. That was a mistake; it was of course meant to come from my personal account. Jon dsgmods wrote: >Hi Howard > >I hope the reference that I gave last time from the Mulapariyaya Sutta >and its commentary and subcommentary has shown that the reference to >dhammas bearing their own reality does not give rise to the problems >you suggested it does. I will now offer some comments on the rest of >your post. > 40191 From: Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:32am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/25/04 10:22:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > Howard > > My apologies for sending this message out from the moderators' account. > That was a mistake; it was of course meant to come from my personal account. > > Jon > ========================= Hey, what's identity all about, in any case, Jon? Just illusion, right?!! ;-)) With no illusion of metta, and with a sincere wish for holiday peace for you and all DSG'ers, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40192 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: [d-l] Dhamma Thread (201) Hi Howard, interesting question. op 25-12-2004 13:45 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:> In a message dated 12/25/04 12:48:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > >> There are 6 vatthus. They all are rupa dhammas. But nama dhamma have >> to depend on these 6 vatthus. >> >> They are >> >> 1. cakkhuvatthu >> 2. sotavatthu >> 3. ghanavatthu >> 4. jivhavatthu >> 5. kayavatthu >> 6. hadayavatthu >> > ========================== > These 6 sense bases are supposedly rupas. They are eye, ear, nose, > tongue, body, and heart base, respectively. > These cannot be the physical organs of eye, ear, se, tongue, body, and > heart (or brain, or entire nervous system), for all those are pa~n~natti. N: As to the five senses, yes, these are physical bases of origin for the sense-cognitions and also what we call in conventional language sense organs. They have each a specific sensitivity to receive the relevant rupas that are sense objects. That is why the Vis. and tiika said: they are ready for impact of the relevant sense objects. In this way there is thare condiitons for the arising of the sense cognitions. The vatthus condition the sense-cognitions by way of dependence condition (See Narada book). They arise and then fall away, but they are present long enough to function as base. Remember that citta is extremely fast, faster than rupa. Thus, when a sense base is impinged upon there are conditions for citta to experience that colour, sound, etc. H: Rupas don't > "hang around," but arise and fall quickly.: 1) What exactly are > these> rupas, N: personally I do not like to mix in medical terms, that is why I explain it as above: just rupas that arise and fall away and that have a function as base. H: 2) "where" do these rupas make their appearance, N: Eyesense: in the middle of a black circle, not bigger than a lice head, you remember the Tiika? So, more or less they appear where we say in conventional terms; eyesense, earsense. Except bodysense, as Jon just explained: all over the body. I did not speak about heartbase, but this is the physical base for all cittas other than the sense-cognitions. H: 3) through what sense > door(s) are they known, N: Through the mind-door. You cannot see your eyesense. H: and 4) what relationship is there between each one of > them and the corresponding conventional organ? N: They are seperate rupas, no relationsship between them. As the Book of Analysis says: seeing does not know hearing, hearing does not know smelling, etc. The corresponding conventional organ: this says something about the location, but, it is of quite another order. Science does not lead to detachment. Science does not help us to see impermanence, the arising and falling away of rupas. This is most important, otherwise we do not reach the goal. We should not let ourselves be delayed by science, we lose precious time. It is urgent to develop understanding of nama and rupa now. Heartbase: it is not important where exactly it is, near the heart (remember old posts). The main thing is: all cittas (in the planes where there are five khandhas) need a physical base, they are connected with what we call body, do not arise outside it. Thus, the five khandhas arise and fall away together. Nama and rupa support each other. Nina. 40193 From: Philip Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 3:39pm Subject: Re:sense-door, mind-door. Hello Nina, and all > We see, that it is impossible to try to know now what the mind-door is, and > this will cure us from wanting a quick fix. We can be realistic. On the > other hand, there is no reason to be discouraged and think: how can I ever > know this. Because it is only pañña itself that works its way. This can > prevent us from trying to know everything quickly and also from becoming > discouraged. Phil: Yes, the discouragement is related to wrong view of self, the aspect that makes one cling to progress in this one lifetime. (Not that there won't be progress in this one lifetime, but the clinging to progress in this one lifetime for which Westerners have cultural- based accumulations is an obstacle, surely.) I am still reading too many suttas too quickly, but there *mey* be some benefit accruing from it. This morning I read MN 143, aloud, repeating aloud "I will not cling to the eye and my consciousness will not be dependent on the eye" and so on for all the six sets of six, plus the four elements, and the khandas. The cumulutive effect of repeating this aloud is very calming and encouraging. The "will", for me, though I know not the Pali used, is an encouraging prediction, not a determination to do it here and now by "will" power. No, it is a prediction of something that can happen in one lifetime, I know not when. But it can only happen if I begin patiently to develop right understanding, moment by moment, without expectations. As you write in your book on the Paramis: "When we are in a hurry or when we are tired it seems that realities do not appear as they are, one at a time. Right understanding has not been developed yet, and that is why mindfulness has to begin again and again. Nama and rupa have to be studied with mindfulness at the moment that they appear, one at a time. Maybe our whole life consists of mere beginnings of understanding, we have to begin again and again, but this is the only way to begin to develop right understanding." I am leaning on the desk and there is hardness. No, it is thinking about hardness. But the thinking is a reality. Moment by moment, beginning again and again. Feeling calmer and more confident this morning. Very grateful for your help these days, Nina. Metta, Phil 40194 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Dear Herman, No. There is no confusion at all. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman wrote: Hi Htoo, Is there some level confusion going on here? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Nope. Not at all. All are clear. Howard and I are discussing on citta A and citta B. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > ..citta A simply does not then exist. And since it does not exist, it > cannot be the object of citta B. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: Of course it can be. But as a past object. Like our bhavanga > cittas. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > ==== Herman wrote: Our? ==== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: As I said, Howard and I are discussing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Howard wrote: > > And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a > citta is, in fact, nonsense! > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: No Howard. It is full of sense. > > When The Buddha did 'paccavakkhana vithi vara' all cittas had already > passed away. The Buddha put His 'paccavakkhana' or 'contemplation' > or 'scrutinization' on the past objects cittas that had already > passed away. Full of sense, of course. :-) If you do not still > believe please referred to Abhidhamma. > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Howard wrote: > > So, does it mean anything at all to say "Citta B has citta A > as object"? > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > Htoo: > > Yes. It means many thing. If this has not happened we will never know > our cittas of different kinds. > ======= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Herman wrote: Precisely who is this we that needs to know all these cittas of ours? Kind Regards Herman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: To say precisely there is no 'we' and no 'ours' at all. :-) With Metta, Htoo Naing 40195 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 4:25pm Subject: Re: [d-l] Dhamma Thread (201) Dear Howard, Thanks for your reply. Please see below for explanations and discussions. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howar wrote: Hi, Htoo - Howard wrote: Hi, Htoo - [Htoo post]> In a message dated 12/25/04 12:48:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > > > There are 6 vatthus. They all are rupa dhammas. But nama dhamma have > > to depend on these 6 vatthus. > > > > They are > > > > 1. cakkhuvatthu > > 2. sotavatthu > > 3. ghanavatthu > > 4. jivhavatthu > > 5. kayavatthu > > 6. hadayavatthu > > ========================== Howard wrote: These 6 sense bases are supposedly rupas. They are eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and heart base, respectively. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Of course. All these rupa are ultimate realities. They are paramattha dhamma. 'Parama' means 'higher' and 'attha' means 'meaning' or 'essence'. Paramattha means 'higher essence'. They are ultimate realties and they cannot be further dissected. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: These cannot be the physical organs of eye, ear, se, tongue, body, and heart (or brain, or entire nervous system), for all those are pa~n~natti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is right. That is why I said these pasada rupa and hadaya rupa cannot be sensed by 5 physical sense-bases. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: Rupas don't "hang around," but arise and fall quickly. So, without much Pali, please, because the Pali, beyond a few words, only hinders my understanding, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I understand. For speediness all dhamma words are written in Pali and this helps accuracy. I already include to ask at the bottom if you believe there are more than a few words. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: and the Buddha approved of teaching in the vernacular anyway: 1) What exactly are these rupas, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: They are finally 4 mahabhuta rupas or 4 great elements. But the collection of 4 elements here is arranged especially here and this special arrangement cause these 5 pasada rupa to have a special characteristics of 'clarity'. This clearness works for their separate function. Clarity in eye does not work for hearing and so forth. They are in their respective place of physical organs but they cannot be seen, heard, smelled, tasted and touched. Because they are not the object of these 5 sense organ. Example is cakkhu pasada rupa situates in the eye. But as soon as that eye is removed there is no more cakkhu pasada. But when this removed eye is implanted into other people who do not have eye, there might arise cakkhu pasada rupa. These are that what exactly these pasada rupas are. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: 2) "where" do these rupas make their appearance, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: They do not appear to our 5 physical sense. But they do arise and fall away. They exist. They are ultimate realities. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: 3) through what sense door(s) are they known, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Only through mind-door. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: and 4) what relationship is there between each one of them and the corresponding conventional organ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: :-) There is 'no organ' at all. But as you already included that 'the corresponding conventional organ', I would have to say that the conventional organs do support these 5 pasada rupas. But as I said as soon as the organs are removed, they will not contain any pasada rupa. But as soon as the explanted organs are transplanted, there is *possibility* that pasada rupa may arise. This will depend on kamma of receivers. All pasada rupas are kammaja eka.m rupa. That is all pasada rupas are generated only by kamma. There is no other cause for arising of pasada rupa apart from kamma. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: It may well be that you have, in the very many and detailed posts on Abhidhamma that came earlier, thoroughly explained this, but I plead Pali-ignorance and a kind of glazing-over-of-the-eyes syndrome in response to lists upon lists as my excuse for not having picked up on an explanation. In the case that this has aready been well explained, I apologize, but I do request even now whatever clarification you and others could provide. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Howard, it is fine and no need for apology. I already include to ask at the bottom as PS. With respect, Htoo Naing 40196 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Dear Howard, We do not need to agree everything. Everyone has his or her own right. I just took 'present object' 'past object' 'future object' from Abhidhammatthasangaha written by Venerable Anuruddha of Mahatumula Monastry. I think we will not have the same view on pannatti. When I said 'citta B can take citta A as object', you believe that that object has to be memory. I said it is paramattha dhamma citta but as a past object. Patisandhi citta, bhavanga cittas and cuti citta of this life take the past object. They can never take current object. They are also not taking memory. In a pancadvara vithi vara of 17 cittas, the first 3 cittas are bhavanga cittas and not in the vithi vara. All 14 vithi cittas in this series take an exact single object. At the end follow many many bhavanga cittas. Again another vithi vara arise. Take that object again. But at that time as rupa passed away, there is no more object. But new series take the past object. Again 'pannatti never arise and never fall away'. But what arise and fall away is citta that take pannatti as its object. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo (and Larry & Icaro) - > > In a message dated 12/25/04 1:35:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > > > Dear Howard, Larry, Icaro and All, > > > > Howard, we do not assume you butt in. Dhamma discussions are for > > members. I like your philosophy. But let us see your thought and how > > dhammas are working. > > > > With much respect, > > > > Htoo Naing > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Howard wrote: > > > > Hi, Larry (and Htoo) - > > > > [Larry's reply to Htoo] > > > > >In a message dated 12/24/04 7:09:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > LBIDD@w... > > >writes: > > > > > >>Hi Htoo, > > >> > > >>Thanks for your good wishes and thanks for the discussion on > > bodily > > >>pains. One more question, if I may. When consciousness is an > > object > > >>does that consciousness also have an object? If so, it would seem > > >>like there are two objects for one consciousness. Otherwise, it > > would > > >>seem like there is a consciousness (the object consciousness) > > which > > >>itself doesn't have an object. I bring this up because I don't > > >>understand what is the object when rupa is a mind-door object. > > >> > > >>Larry > > ====================== > > Howard wrote: > > > > If I may butt in: Clearly citta B cannot have citta A as > > arammana at the time that citta A is the current citta. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: > > > > I have read your whole reply to Larry's post. > > > > Here arises citta A. It passes away. > > > > Here arises citta B. That citta B take citta A as its object. > > > > This can well happen. You are right to say 'B cannot take A as its > > object when A is current citta'. > > > > But citta B take citta A as its object. But that object is the past > > object. It is not the current object. > > > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > At the time of citta B, citta A is nonexistent. Citta B has an object. > It may be a memory of citta A, it may be a concept of citta A - but it cannot > be citta A, because there IS NO citta A! > --------------------------------------- > > > > > This is like our patisandhi citta. But patisandhi cittas may take any > > object depending on marana-asanna-javana-cittas of immediate past > > life. But our patisandhi citta truely took the past object and not > > the current object. So do our bhavanga cittas and so will our cuti > > citta. > > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > This is, in fact, imprecise, merely conventional speech. What arises > and ceases is gone for good. > -------------------------------------- > > > > > Regarding object or arammana there are > > > > 1. past object > > 2. current object > > 3. future object > > 4. timeless object > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Howard wrote: > > > > Thus, citta B must occur *after* citta A has ceased. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: This is very true. But Citta B take the past object as citta > > has passed away. > > > --------------------------------------- > Howard: > The reasserting of a claim doesn't constitute proof of that claim. > --------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Howard wrote: > > > > But, then, at the time of citta B, there *is* no citta A; > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: That is why I said it is the past object and not the current > > object. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Howard wrote: > > > > ..citta A simply does not then exist. And since it does not exist, it > > cannot be the object of citta B. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: Of course it can be. But as a past object. Like our bhavanga > > cittas. > > > ------------------------------------------- > Howard: > With respect, this, again, is assertion without proof. (Also, to speak > of a "past object" is confusing, because it literally means something that > used to be an object. What you mean by "past object", I believe, is a dhamma > that existed in the past and is the object right now of the current mindstate. ut > that is the whole issue. That past phenomenon lo longer exists, and it cannot > be the object of the current mindstate except in a manner of speaking. What > is the actual current object is a memory or a concept, but not the past dhamma, > because that does not exist. The idea that a dhamma can exist in a throughout > the three times is a Sarvastivadin notion, it is eternalist in flavor, and is > one of the reasons that Saravastivada was considered "hina" by the early > Mahayanists. > ---------------------------------------------- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Howard wrote: > > > > And this is why the idea of a citta being the object of a > > citta is, in fact, nonsense! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: No Howard. It is full of sense. > > > -------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, it seems we disagree. ;-) > ------------------------------------------- > > > > > > When The Buddha did 'paccavakkhana vithi vara' all cittas had already > > passed away. The Buddha put His 'paccavakkhana' or 'contemplation' > > or 'scrutinization' on the past objects cittas that had already > > passed away. Full of sense, of course. :-) If you do not still > > believe please referred to Abhidhamma. > > > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > The problem is that of precision of speech. I leave the remainder of > your post without further comment, Htoo. > ------------------------------------ > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Howard wrote: > > > > So, does it mean anything at all to say "Citta B has citta A > > as object"? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: > > > > Yes. It means many thing. If this has not happened we will never know > > our cittas of different kinds. > > > > When we are discussing on dosa cittas at that time we may think of > > our experience with dosa like 'such and such time I was angry and > > that must be dosa that the text says' and so on. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Howard wrote: > > > > The only sense I can make of that is that it means that the object > > (or objective content) of citta B is a memory. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: > > > > Here we are approaching another difficult area. As you said it may > > well seem memory. This memory is the word of every day language. > > > > Please do not mix things up. Concepts are pannatti. Memory the term > > that we use in daily lifeis a broad term. It is a mixture of sanna > > cetasikas, cittas, vedana cetasikas, and sankharas or formations or > > fabrications. > > > > When we think of citta A by citta B, citta A is still paramattha > > dhamma. It is citta. It is not pannatti. This is sure. But as an > > object it is the past object. > > > > I would like to suggest to study arammana very closely as a second > > look or multi-look. You know 'asevana paccaya'. If you > > study 'arammana' afresh then you would gain another experience and > > this will help your practice. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Howard wrote: > > > > It is a memory of citta A, which means some sort of mentally > > constructed/fabricated facsimile of citta A involving > > all or some of the aspects of that previous mindstate. So, the object > > is a sankharic construct, much akin to an idea. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- > > Htoo: > > > > Citta is citta. Citta is paramattha dhamma and it is never pannatti. > > Sankharic construction may arise if other things are put together > > with that pure citta A. > > > > May you be free from suffering. > > > > With Unlimited Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > ========================= > With metta, > Howard > 40197 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:02pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (202) Dear Dhamma Friends, K. vatthu classification on citta There are 1. 2 cakkhuvatthu nissita cittas (2 cakkhuvinnana cittas) 2. 2 sotavatthu nissita cittas (2 sotavinana cittas) 3. 2 ghanavatthu nissita cittas (2 ghanavinnana cittas) 4. 2 jivhavatthu nissita cittas (2 jivhavinnana cittas) 5. 2 kayavatthu nissita cittas (2 kayavinnana cittas) 6.75 hadayavatthu nissita cittas (3 manodhatu, 11 tadarammanas 2 dosas, 1 sotapatti magga, 1 hasituppada, 15 rupavacaras 8 mahakusala, 4 arupakusala, 10 akusalas after substraction of(2)dosa, 1 manodvaravajjana, 8 mahakiriya, 4 arupakiriya, 7 lokuttara cittas after removal of sotapatti magga) 7. 4 hadayavatthu anissita cittas ( 4 arupavipaka cittas ) Here cakkhuvatthu means eye-base. Nissita means 'depending on' 'dwelling on' 'by way of'. 2 cittas arise at cakkhuvatthu and so do other 8 of pancavinnana cittas at their respective vatthu or sense- base. 4 arupavipaka cittas arise without any rupa as they all are arupa brahma's vipaka cittas. Among 75 hadayavatthu nissita cittas, 42 cittas depend or take the ground on hadaya vatthu when in pancavokara bhumi. But when these 42 cittas arise in catuvokara bhumis that is 4 arupa realms, they do not depend on any rupa at all. So they do not depend on hadayavatthu. So these 42 cittas sometimes dependon hadaya vatthu and sometimes not. 33 cittas always depend on hadaya vatthu. 3 cittas are 3 mano-dhatu and they always depend on hadaya vatthu. Other 30 cittas are 15 rupavacara cittas, 11 tadarammana cittas, 2 dosa citta and 1 sotapatti magga citta. This is why puthujana arupa brahma cannot be ariya in that realm because sotapatti magga citta does not arise in arupa brahma bhumi or realm. But when arupa brhamas are born-ariyas like sotapatti phala puggala or above they can have progress up to arahatta magga nana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40198 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:24pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (203) Dear Dhamma Friends, K. vatthu classification on citta In earlier posts, dhammas are made into dhamma molecules by dhamma atoms. H2 and O make a water molecule. A dhamma atom pure 'citta' and 7 dhamma atoms 'cetasikas' make a dhamma molecule called 'pancavinnana citta'. Glucose is a molecule. Protein is also a molecule. Sometime glucose and protein are formed into another compound called glycoprotein. Like this complex chemical structure, dhamma molecule 'citta- cetasikas combination' and dhamma molecule 'a rupa' are formed into another dhamma compound called nama-rupa. For example, cakkhuvinnana citta is a combination of pure citta and 7 universal cetasikas. Again it is linked with cakkhu pasada rupa and make nama-rupa dhamma compound. Cakkhuvinnana citta has to based on cakkhu pasada rupa or cakkhu vatthu. It has to depend on cakkhu vatthu. It has to take the ground cakkhu vatthu. It has to dwell on cakkhu vatthu. It homes on cakkhu vatthu. In botany regarding plant physiology, there is a compound called chlorophil. By this chemical plant can synthesize their own food unlike animals who always have to depend on other for food like plants or other animals. That chlorophil is a very complex structure. In the middle of the molecule is Maganisium atom and it is linked with pyrrole rings structures and protein molecules. Again protein molecules are folded into primary structure, secondary structure, tertiary structure, quarternary structure etc. Like these primary, secondary, tertiary folding, dhammas have also many foldings. That nama-rupa compound is made into another complex with another rupa who serves as arammana or object. So citta is attached with cetasikas and this combination homes on vatthu and it also has to hold the arammana or object. Without arammana or object that citta- cetasikas combination would fall out. That means 'without arammana no citta can arise. In vatthu calssification there are 1. 10 pancavatthu nissita cittas (10 pancavinnana cittas) 2. 33 hadaya-sadaa-nissita cittas ( always depend on ) 3. 42 hadaya-nissita-anissita cittas( sometimes depend-sometimes not) 4. 4 hadaya anissita cittas ----- 89 total cittas May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40199 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:34pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (204) Dear Dhamma Friends, K. vatthu classification on citta L. vinnana classification on citta All 89 cittas are vinnana. They are synonyms for consciousness. Sometimes they can be called as vinnana cittas. There are 6 kinds of vinnana or 'vinnana chakka'. 'Cakkhuvinnaana.m sotavinnaana.m ghaanavinnaana.m jivhaavinnaana.m kaayavinnaana.m manovinnaananceti chavinnaanaani'. 1. 2 cakkhuvinnana cittas 2. 2 sotavinnana cittas 3. 2 ghanavinnana cittas 4. 2 jivhavinnana cittas 5. 2 kayavinnana cittas 6.79 manovinnana cittas ---------------- 89 total cittas But 79 manovinnana cittas are put into 2 separate dhatus as 3 mano- dhatu and 76 mano-vinnana-dhatu. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40200 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:38pm Subject: Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 83- Volition/cetanaa (m) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom > > http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html > http://www.zolag.co.uk/ > > Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) > ========================================== > [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] > ***** > Kusala kamma which is bhåvanå comprises studying and teaching > Dhamma, samatha, tranquil meditation, and vipassanå, the > development of right understanding of realities. The development > of right understanding is the highest form of kusala kamma because > it leads to the eradication of ignorance. When ignorance has been > eradicated there are no more conditions for rebirth in a next life, > one is freed from the cycle of birth and death. > > We have accumulated different degrees of kusala kamma and > akusala kamma and they are capable of producing their appropriate > results when there is opportunity for it. We may be inclined to > think that the term "accumulation" only pertains to kamma, but > not only kamma is accumulated, also tendencies to kusala and > akusala are accumulated. When one steals, akusala kamma is > accumulated which is capable of producing vipåka later on. > > However vipåka is not the only effect of this unwholesome deed. > Also the tendency to stealing is accumulated and thus there are > conditions that one steals again. We have the potential in us for > all kinds of bad deeds and when there is an opportunity akusala > cetanå can motivate a bad deed through body, speech and mind. > ***** > [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Hello Sarah and others at dsg. Its the last sentence that I wish to comment on. I remembered having a discussion with you Sarah, in Gangtok, about how, even if we think we lead basically good lives, this is no guarantee that there won't be conditions, even in this life, to do something drastic. Remembering some of the nasty things I've done to various people in this very existence, I sometimes wonder of what I'm really capable. It isn't of much benefit to worry about it tho; and I have just realised that I'm far less concerned these days about the results of my past bad deeds. What is done has gone, and even if I make all the 'good' resolutions to 'behave', these habits persist eg. a swear word slips out when I want to impress a point - even if in jest, not anger. Maybe the up-side of my being aware of my bad habits could be that there are lots of opp9ortunities to refrain, however, this refraining is conditioned I believe, by accummulations. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 40201 From: Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi Htoo and all, I've been away for a day and just catching up on this discussion. It seems to have devolved into the question can past or future object be a paramattha dhamma. I must say I agree with Howard that to say yes sounds like a Sarvastivada solution which is essentially eternalistic. My idea was that each citta in citta process informs the next. So the object of 5-door javana, for example, would be votthapana (determining consciousness) and the object of a following mind-door adverting would be the preceding 5-door javana or possibly preceding tadarammana. And we just conventionally say the object of all this is the original rupa. There is still a problem of past informing present which I don't see how to resolve, even if we use the "concept" solution. Maybe we could just say "it's magic". ;-)) Furthermore, I'm experimenting with the idea that consciousness _is_ its object in experience. There is a certain appeal to this, but also problems. Larry 40202 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 5:54pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (205) Dear Dhamma Friends, K. vatthu classification on citta L. vinnana classification on citta M. puggala classification on citta Puggala or beings are 12 kinds. 1. Arahatta phalatthana puggala 2. arahatta maggatthana puggala 3. anagami phalatthana puggala 4. anagami maggatthana puggala 5. sakadagami phalatthana puggala 6. sakadagami maggatthana puggala 7. sotaapatti phalatthana puggala 8. sotapatti maggatthana puggala These 8 puggalas are called 'atthapurisa puggala esa bhagavato savaka sangho'. They are real Sanghas. Phalatthana is made up of 'phala' and 'thana'. Thana means place. So this being is at the place of arahatta phala. All these 8 people are ariyas. 1. arahatta phalatthana puggala is also known as 'asikkha puggala'. They are no more candidate. They are no more student. They all have atained arahatta magga and become arahats. From 2 to 8 are candidates ariya but they have not yet attained arahatta magga nana. They are called 'sikkha puggala' or 'candidate' or 'student'. 9. puthujjana tihetuka puggala ( has potential to attain magga nana) 10.puthujjana dvihetuka puggala( no potential to attain nibbana) 11.putthujjana sugati ahetuka puggala (blinds and the deaf) 12.puthujjana duggati ahetuka puggala ( apaya beings ) May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40203 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Dear Larry, Howard and All, There are many many areas that we do not understand. Another question is 1. Can 'newly arisen citta' take itself as its object? This question was asked at triplegem long time ago. regarding citta A and citta B, I remember dhammaarammana. There are 6 kinds of dhammaarammana or mind-object. They are 1. 5 pasada rupas 2. 16 sukhuma rupas 3. 89 cittas 4. 52 cetasikas 5. 1 nibbana and 6. 0 pannatti There is no paramattha dhamma called panatti. So I gave it '0'. But pannatti can serve as an object in the power of paramattha dhamma. Arammana or objects have to be pancaarammana or dhammaarammana. Here 89 cittas are included in dhammaarammana. They are definitely not pannatti. So how can they be the object of citta? Why are they in dhammaarammana if cittas cannot be object of another citta? With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Htoo and all, > > I've been away for a day and just catching up on this discussion. It > seems to have devolved into the question can past or future object be a > paramattha dhamma. I must say I agree with Howard that to say yes sounds > like a Sarvastivada solution which is essentially eternalistic. > > My idea was that each citta in citta process informs the next. So the > object of 5-door javana, for example, would be votthapana (determining > consciousness) and the object of a following mind-door adverting would > be the preceding 5-door javana or possibly preceding tadarammana. And we > just conventionally say the object of all this is the original rupa. > There is still a problem of past informing present which I don't see how > to resolve, even if we use the "concept" solution. Maybe we could just > say "it's magic". ;-)) > > Furthermore, I'm experimenting with the idea that consciousness _is_ its > object in experience. There is a certain appeal to this, but also > problems. > > Larry 40204 From: Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is time ? Hi Joop, We've been discussing for years the very delicate question, "is impermanence real". Admittedly my proposal is a bit of a stretch because if the water element is time it would have to cross the insurmountable barrier between nama and rupa. Maybe there are two times, rupa time and nama time, with nama time being a matter of that mysterious word "sankhara". Larry 40205 From: Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vism.XIV,126 "When one experiences pleasure, if one does not understand feeling, the tendency to lust is present. When one experiences pain, if one does not understand feeling, the tendency to aversion is present." (SN XXXVI.3) Hi Phil, You asked how one could tell when a sutta is talking about path consciousness. Nina pointed out the pattern "he is not aware...he is aware". Another clue is any talk of tendencies (anusaya). Tendencies are always present until enlightenment. Larry 40206 From: Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 1:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. In a message dated 12/25/2004 12:10:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: So are we all agreed now? All wrong views (including all kinds of sakkaya ditthi) are eradicated at the stage of sotapanna, but subtle conceits and clinging to self remain until arahantship. No wrong view involved, however. Metta, Sarah Hi Sarah No agreement at all. For I consider a "view" of something to be the way it is being seen, perceived, realized, interpreted, etc. If the "view" contains delusion, then its a false view. Period. The only thing a streamwinner has gotten rid of is the gross "belief" that that these things are self. They still have the "view" of them as being "mine," "I am." etc. That's still a self view and that's a false view. You've already made statements on the order of (paraphrasing) ..."A sotapanna has eliminated the roots of false views, but still deeper roots remain." Doesn't that type of contradiction alarm you when you type it or think it? We all compartmentalize knowledge in ways that suit us. As far as I'm concerned, only an Arahat has eliminated all false views. You're the only one I've seen in here so far arguing your point that a sotapanna has permanently eliminated all false views. The only demonstrations I have seen you provide from Sutta references and commentaries have all provided evidence to support the position I'm taking. You somehow think a conceit isn't a false view or false view oriented. You are taking a position that greed, hatred, and delusion can still flourish even after the mind has been cleansed of false views. That astounds me but stranger things have happened. I think what I'm trying to say is I'm still not a convert. ;-) At any rate, the main thing is to practice conditionality insight, the false views will be dealt with according to natural cause and effect relations; in spite of our "views" as to when it will happen. :-) TG 40207 From: Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 6:21pm Subject: ICARO Icaro!!! Where have you been??? The last time you wrote you were in Toronto with unpleasant mental feeling. Larry 40208 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 7:21pm Subject: Re: ICARO Hello Larry!!, Icaro!!, (and anyone else !! with a solution [or even a wild guess] to the mystery), I'm not so sure it was Icaro in Toronto, (though I know trains DO go there, and, with a great deal of game-losing re-routing it COULD be a roundabout route from Darwin to Brisbane) I know Toronto was mentioned - but did he mean Tonto? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33989 I have this vague memory of Icaro quite seriously discussing Rocky, Bullwinkle and Dhamma - but maybe it was all a dream ... :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Icaro!!! > > Where have you been??? The last time you wrote you were in Toronto with > unpleasant mental feeling. > > Larry 40209 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Dec 25, 2004 8:10pm Subject: Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hello TG and Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > In a message dated 12/25/2004 12:10:25 AM Pacific Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > So are we all agreed now? All wrong views (including all kinds of sakkaya > ditthi) are eradicated at the stage of sotapanna, but subtle conceits and > clinging to self remain until arahantship. No wrong view involved, > however. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > Hi Sarah > > No agreement at all. For I consider a "view" of something to be the way it > is being seen, perceived, realized, interpreted, etc. If the "view" contains > delusion, then its a false view. Period. The only thing a streamwinner has > gotten rid of is the gross "belief" that that these things are self. They still > have the "view" of them as being "mine," "I am." etc. That's still a self > view and that's a false view. Azita: I can see how you are using 'view' here. However I understand in Abhidhamma terms, Is that all wrong view [micca ditthi] is eradicated at the moment of sotapatimaggacitta. You've already made statements on the order of > (paraphrasing) ..."A sotapanna has eliminated the roots of false views, but > still deeper roots remain." Doesn't that type of contradiction alarm you when you > type it or think it? > > We all compartmentalize knowledge in ways that suit us. As far as I'm > concerned, only an Arahat has eliminated all false views. You're the only one I've > seen in here so far arguing your point that a sotapanna has permanently > eliminated all false views. Azita: well, I'll put my hand up here, so I'm the second one arguing this point. The only demonstrations I have seen you provide from > Sutta references and commentaries have all provided evidence to support the > position I'm taking. > > You somehow think a conceit isn't a false view or false view oriented. Azita: Mana - conceit, is not ditthi - view. There is Micchaditthi and Sammadhitti. Wrong view, right view. Again, Abhidhamma terms. It actually took me quite a while to understand how a Sotapanna can have no more idea of self as a lasting entity, but can still have lust. what it did for me, was help me understand [theoretically] how anatta works. you see, if the 5 khandhas are the very things we take for self, for something lasting and therefore worthy of having, and then at stage of sotapanna, the view that its lasting etc. is eliminated, but a lot remain, eg lobha, mana, dosa - but not the degree that can perform really evil deeds, rupa. Somehow it helped me understand the anattan- ness of the khandhas. You > are taking a position that greed, hatred, and delusion can still flourish even > after the mind has been cleansed of false views. That astounds me but > stranger things have happened. I think what I'm trying to say is I'm still not a > convert. ;-) > > At any rate, the main thing is to practice conditionality insight, the false > views will be dealt with according to natural cause and effect relations; in > spite of our "views" as to when it will happen. :-) > > TG > > Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 40210 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 0:38am Subject: Thinking of all friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand Thinking of all our friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand and elsewhere in S.E. Asia with metta and karuna after hearing of the earthquakes and resultant Tsunamis. May you and your relatives all stay safe and well. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 40211 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 1:24am Subject: Fw: Re: Thinking of all friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand Dear friends, This post was received from mettamoc, so I forward it here. metta, Christine ----- Original Message ----- From: "mettamoc" Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 8:04 PM Subject: Re: Thinking of all friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: >> >> Thinking of all our friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand and >> elsewhere in S.E. Asia with metta and karuna after hearing of the >> earthquakes and resultant Tsunamis. May you and your relatives all >> stay safe and well. >> >> metta and peace, >> Christine >> ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > ===================================================================== > Dear Dharma friends in the forum, > May all of you be well, happy . > > Metta > 40212 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hi TG (& Azita), --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > No agreement at all. For I consider a "view" of something to be the way > it > is being seen, perceived, realized, interpreted, etc. If the "view" > contains > delusion, then its a false view. Period. …. I apologise if anything I’m saying is unclear or confusing in anyway. By false or wrong view, are you referring to ditthi? By delusion, are you referring to moha? The deepest roots of all are those of moha and lobha (without ditthi) which are only eradicated by the arahant. The roots with ditthi have to be eradicated first. Perhaps by false/wrong views here, you are referring to perversions without ditthi (:-/) or lobha ( sometimes accompanied by conceit). As you know I'm sure, conceit and wrong view (ditthi) cannot arise at the same time. They arise with different cittas, but both are rooted in lobha. Is it helpful to look at the vipallasa (perversions) here, where it is clear that those with ditthi (wrong view) are eradicated at sotapatti magga? From Nyantiloka’s dictionary: ***** • Vipallása 'perversions' or 'distortions'. - ''There are 4 perversions which may be either: • of perception (saññá-vipallása), • of consciousness (citta v.) • or of views (ditthi-v.). And which are these four? To regard: • what is impermanent (anicca) as permanent; • what is painful (dukkha) as pleasant (or happiness-yielding); • what is without a self (anattá) as a self; • what is impure (ugly: asubha) as pure or beautiful'' (A.IV.49). - See Manual of Insight, by Ledi Sayadaw (WHEEL 31/32). p.5. "Of the perversions, the following are eliminated by the 1st path-knowledge (sotápatti): the perversions of perception, consciousness and views, that the impermanent is permanent and what is not a self is a self; further, the perversion of views that the painful is pleasant, and the impure is pure. By the 3rd path-knowledge (anágámitá) are eliminated: the perversions of perception and consciousness that the impure is pure. By the 4th path-knowledge (arahatta) are eliminated the perversions of perception and consciousness that the painful is pleasant" (Vis.M. XXII, ***** >The only thing a streamwinner > has > gotten rid of is the gross "belief" that that these things are self. > They still > have the "view" of them as being "mine," "I am." etc. That's still a > self > view and that's a false view. …. These are perversions of sanna and citta accompanying attachment and conceit, but not wrong views (ditthi) of self or ‘the world’ as elaborated on in the Sallekha Sutta, James referred us to. (Even he acknowledges that the commentary makes it clear all wrong views are eradicated at sotapatti magga. James, I plan to discuss your posts and the sutta later in detail). …. > We all compartmentalize knowledge in ways that suit us. As far as I'm > concerned, only an Arahat has eliminated all false views. You're the > only one I've > seen in here so far arguing your point that a sotapanna has permanently > eliminated all false views. The only demonstrations I have seen you > provide from > Sutta references and commentaries have all provided evidence to support > the > position I'm taking. …. S: I’m rather mystified. Unless you’re giving false views here another connotation to refer to other perversions and not to ditthi, I haven’t seen anyone else or any sutta or comy supporting your position apart from James (and as I say, even his position is a little different, which I’ll respond to later). You’d have to elaborate. … > You somehow think a conceit isn't a false view or false view oriented. > You > are taking a position that greed, hatred, and delusion can still > flourish even > after the mind has been cleansed of false views. That astounds me but > stranger things have happened. I think what I'm trying to say is I'm > still not a > convert. ;-) … S: See Azita’s and Nina’s posts too with further examples and explanations. Even now, when we compare another’s wealth or health, have attachment for any sense objects, have anger or just no knowing with ignorance, there doesn’t need to be any false view involved at all. While a child is playing for hours on the beach, mostly there’s just attachment and ignorance – no views about truths and realities at all. Of course, straight after the conceit or the attachment or other cittas, there can be 'false view' when we take the other person or thing or ourselves for ‘Self’ or ‘Something’ very easily and commonly. …. > At any rate, the main thing is to practice conditionality insight, the > false > views will be dealt with according to natural cause and effect > relations; in > spite of our "views" as to when it will happen. :-) …. S: I think it’s important as Azita said to understand a little about the characteristics of ditthi, mana and lobha in theory at least so that awareness can be aware of them when they arise and the distinctions clearly understood. I’m happy to continue discussing this thread as I think it’s important to clear up any misunderstandings of substance or language here. Metta, Sarah p.s I meant to say before, that I thought your comments to Phil on the use of the 5 and 6 sense doors were very good.- i.e attachment to objects through the 5 senses and thinking on account of them. If you 'speak' to Ray H, please encourage him to join in our thread here too! ======== 40213 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:10am Subject: Re: ICARO > > Hello Larry!!, Icaro!!, (and anyone else !! with a solution [or even > a wild guess] to the mystery), > > I'm not so sure it was Icaro in Toronto, (though I know trains DO go > there, and, with a great deal of game-losing re-routing it COULD be > a roundabout route from Darwin to Brisbane) Hello Chris!!!!! One of these days I was watching a copy I have of the first episode of the old Gerry & Sylvia Anderson series "UFO". There were a nurse on the scene, in duty of open cirurgically the guts and bowels of one hostile alien captured out by the SHADO....I remember you! Opening the guts of an alien, while reciting the Digha Nikaya...she´s must be only the unique Christine Forsyth!!!!! By the fact, here in Rio de Janeiro there are few opportunities to realize Dana in benefit for the Sangha...only a tiny Theravada Temple at the other side of the town, taking at full Buddhaghosa´s advice to only rising monasterties at places of difficult access... > I know Toronto was mentioned - but did he mean Tonto? Well, I usually do this way: first a double track rail line from Edmonton to Calgary, and after - if the market is O.K. - an expansion to Regina or Saskatoon,making a lot of money on the way. So,I launch a dire advance to Fort Vermillon or Dawson Creek and I get the Bronze Medal for my diligent efforts! In other scenery, I linked out Toront to Chicago, and after rise a line Toronto-Chicago-St.Louis, but it never worked out properly...is there any good canadian soul at this room to give a helpful hand to a poor Railroad Tycoon II Player ?? > I have this vague memory of Icaro quite seriously discussing Rocky, > Bullwinkle and Dhamma - but maybe it was all a dream ... :-) Dhamma penetrates and fills every aspect of the world, Chris.Many times I thought of the interplay of external objects and its movementes with our sense and mind door, as a flow of sketches on a cartoon or something alike. Buddhistic countries as Japan and Korea supports with a very national passion its own cartoon productions - the Animes. Perhaps there are more Dhamma at the Rocky & Bullwinkle show that can conceive our silly philosophies!!!! Mettaya and kisses, Chris! Ícaro 40214 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:12am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 84- Volition/cetanaa (n) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** We should distinguish the condition for vipåkacitta from the condition for kusala citta or for akusala citta. Accumulated kamma which produces vipåka is one type of condition. The accumulated tendencies to good and evil due to which kusala citta and akusala citta arise are another type of condition. Thus, there are different types of condition which play their part in our life. Tendencies to all kinds of defilements are accumulated. When, for example, lobha-múla-citta arises, the tendency to lobha is accumulated and thus there are conditions for the arising again of lobha-múla-citta. We are bound to be attached because we have accumulated such an amount of lobha. Not only unwholesome tendencies, but also wholesome tendencies can be accumulated. When there is a moment of right mindfulness of the reality which appears now, it is a condition for the arising of mindfulness again, later on. We tend to be attached rather than to be mindful, but when mindfulness has been accumulated more it will be less difficult to be mindful. Whatever tendency is accumulated now will bear on our life in the future(1). *** 1) See also Abhidhamma Studies V, 3, by Ven. Nyanaponika, B.P.S. Kandy 1976. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40215 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 3:11am Subject: Apologies Hi everyone, I sincerely regret having expressed myself lately in a way that may have been unacceptable for some people. I have sincerely regretted existing for quite a while longer. I am not interested in keeping the dream alive. As to a precise definition of sotapanna, who gives a shit? Kind Regards Herman 40216 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:00am Subject: Re: ICARO > Where have you been??? The last time you wrote you were in Toronto with > unpleasant mental feeling. By the six Buddhistic Hells!!!! I´ve tried to link Toronto to Chicago and after to St. Louis at Railroad Tycoon II, but I didn´t got any success!!!! They don´t want me to be famous! They don´t want me to be a Tycoon!!! What´s the problem to be famous anyway ? I can put down rail tracks from here to Thailand!!! Is there any good canadian soul to give me a helping hand at Virtual Railroad Big Market ? Mettaya, Ícaro 40217 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Hi Htoo and Nina Htoo - You said that since due to manusaa patisandhi, it means that the tadarammana cittas should be also kusala vipaka. I like to know the source of this statement Nina, I love technical details, the more complex, the more fun it will going to be. Ken O 40218 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 125 and Tiika. Hi Phil > Ph: What does the Thai commentary say about this "all form is impermanent, suffering and subject to change" that appears so often. Why doesn't it mention not-self? In the Dispeller of Delusion, Classification of the Bases << 237. But what is taught by the Tathagatha in this Suttanta Division? The characteristic of no-self in the twelve bases. For the Fully Enlightened One, when teaching the characterisitic of no-self, teaches it by means of impermanent, or by means of suffering, or by means of [both] the impermanent and suffering. >> Ken O 40219 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies Dear Friends Herman & James, I'm sure we all appreciate your kind words, Herman, I don’t have much time now, but I’m prompted by your message to try and respond to some of your concerns and also James’s helpful comments on the Sallekha Sutta, MN8. Herman, I hope you'll agree that all the problems in life come down to our distorted perceptions and views about the world appearing through the 6 senses. Therefore, if any of our discussions here can help to turn a spotlight on these perceptions and views and thus be a condition for developing awareness and a view of these worlds which is not distorted, it will lead slowly to a lifting of the tenacious hold that such perversions (vipallasas) have. I think that some of the reasons I'm discussing sotapannas might be for reasons discussed in the sutta, including the danger (as I see it of course) of distorted ideas about attainments: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel061.html#ch2 Let me just post a few brief extracts with some of Nyanaponika’s notes: ***** The Discourse on Effacement Introduction (by Nyanaponika) <…> >(Secs. 1-11) This warning against an overestimation of one's position links up with the first sections of our text which we have still to consider. They likewise deal with the overrating of one's achievements, here in the fields of insight and meditative absorptions. >Even initial steps in these fields may result in experiences having such a strong impact on the mind that it is psychologically understandable if they lead to overestimation. This does not necessarily mean overrating oneself through pride, but overrating the position of one's achievements on the path of progress. One may believe them to be complete in their field while they are only partial or to be final while they are only temporary suppressions. <…> >Misconceptions of self and world, which may be quite instinctive and un-philosophical, are deeply anchored in man's nature. They are rooted not only in his intellectual opinions (ditthi), but also in his cravings (tanha) and in his pride and self-assertion (mana). All these three roots of wrong attitudes identify the alleged self or ego with the five aggregates (khandha) comprising personality-and-environment. >These wrong attitudes towards self and world may manifest themselves on various levels: as casual thought-arisings, as a habitual bias, and in words and deeds (see Note 8). Only if the self-identification with the actual "objects of wrong views," i.e., the five aggregates, is radically dissolved on the stage of stream-entry, can it be said that wrong views of self and world have been totally eliminated, together with the bias towards them. <….> >The entire discourse seems to be designed to meet, in a very thorough manner, two opposite psychological obstacles on the path: discouragement in the face of its difficulties, and overrating of partial results. The first part of the discourse (Sees. 1-11) deals with the latter extreme, by stressing the limitations of initial and partial progress. >But for meeting any discouragement caused by these warnings, the Compassionate Master speaks of the value of seemingly simple ethical virtues and stresses the importance of the heart's earnest resolve (Sec. 13) as the first step which anyone can take who is serious about treading the path of actual effacement. <….> The Discourse on Effacement Sallekha Sutta <….> >3. "Venerable sir, there are these various views that arise in the world concerning self-doctrines or world-doctrines.[2] Does the abandoning and discarding of such views come about in a monk who is only at the beginning of his [meditative] reflections?"[3] >"Cunda, as to those several views that arise in the world concerning self-doctrines and world-doctrines, if [the object] in which[4] these views arise, in which they underlie and become active,[5] is seen with right wisdom[6] as it actually is,[7] thus: 'This is not mine,[8] this I am not,[9] this is not my self'[10] -- then the abandoning of these views, their discarding,[11] takes place in him [who thus sees]. …. S:[James – ‘those several views’ is a translation of anekavihitaa di.t.thiyo meaning many, various or manifold wrong view. As I quoted from another sutta, when self doctrines or views are eradicated, so are all other wrong views.] … >(From the Sutta again)The Eight Attainments >4. "It may be, Cunda, that some monk, detached from sense-objects, detached from unsalutary ideas, enters into the first absorption that is born of detachment, accompanied by thought-conception and discursive thinking, and filled with rapture and joy, and he then might think: 'I am abiding in effacement.' But in the Noble One's discipline it is not these [attainments] that are called 'effacement'; in the Noble One's discipline they are called 'abidings in ease here and now.'[12] **** S:Herman & James, I want to quote some of the useful notes Nyanaponika refers to above in the sutta, but I’ll put them at the end of this post after signing off. James, as I say, this is more rushed than intended. I’ll be glad to discuss this sutta further. Herman, please consider any other aspects of the Dhamma that might seem more relevant and helpful to discuss further, if these comments miss the target. You have many good friends here. Let us help and share the little knowledge we have about the Buddha's Teachings with each other. It's a rare opportunity, I think. Wishing you very well for the New Year. Metta, Friend Sarah ========= >Notes 2. Self-doctrines or world-doctrines (atta-vada, lokavada). According to Comy., this refers: (a) to the twenty types of personality-belief (sakkaya-ditthi), i.e., four for each of the five aggregates (khandha); (b) to eight wrong views about self and world, as being eternal, not eternal, both eternal and not eternal, neither eternal nor not eternal, and the same four alternatives concerning finite and infinite. 3. In a monk who is only at the beginning of his (meditative) reflections (adim-eva manasikaroto). Comy.: "This refers to one who is at the beginning of his insight-meditation (vipassana-bhavana) and has not yet attained to stream-entry," when the fetter of personality-belief is finally eliminated. The beginner's insight-practice extends from the "discernment of mentality and corporeality" (namarupa-pariccheda) up to the "knowledge of rise and fall" (udayabbaya-ñana), on which see Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga), Chs. XVIII, XX, XXI. According to the Comy., the Thera's question concerns those who overrate the degree of their achievement, i.e., those who believe that, in their meditative practice, they have achieved this or that result while actually they have not. Overestimation (abhimana), in that sense, "does not arise in ignorant common people (bala-puthujjana) who are entirely engrossed in worldly life, nor does it arise in Noble Disciples (ariya-savaka); because in a stream-winner the overestimation does not arise that he is a once-returner, etc. Self-overestimation can occur only in one who actually practices (meditation) and has temporarily subdued the defilements by way of tranquillity or insight. Maha-Cunda Thera, being an arahant, was no self-overrater himself, but in formulating his question, he put himself in the place of one who is; or, as others say, there may have been such "self-overraters" among his pupils, and for conveying to them the Buddha's reply, he put his question. 4. (The object) in which (yattha). Comy.: yattha (where) = yasmim arammane. The object, or basis, the five aggregates, because all false views on self and world can refer only to the five aggregates or to one of them. See Discourse on the Snake Simile (Wheel No. 47/48), p. 8, and Anatta and Nibbana, by Nyanaponika Thera (Wheel No. 11), p. 18 (quotation). 5. In which these views arise (yattha uppajjanti), i.e., arise for the first time, without having occurred earlier (Comy.). Underlie (anusenti), i.e., habitually occur (cf. anusaya, "tendency," which may be latent or active). Comy.: "This refers to views which, having been indulged in repeatedly, have become strong and have not been removed." Sub.Comy.: "By ultimate elimination (samuccheda-vinaya-vasena)." Become active (samudacaranti). Comy.: "Wrong views have arrived at the (action-) doors of body and speech," i.e., which have found expression in words and deeds. 6. With right wisdom (sammappaññaya). Comy.: "With insight-wisdom, ending with the knowledge pertaining to the path of stream-entry." [Go back] 7. As it actually is (yatha-bhutam). Comy.: "Because the five aggregates exist only in that manner (i.e., as something 'that is not mine,' etc.). But if conceived in the way 'It is mine,' etc., it simply does not exist (n'ev'atthi)." 8. This is not mine: hereby craving (tanha) is rejected. 9. This I am not: this refers to the rejection of conceit (mana). 10. This is not my self: this refers to the rejection of false views (ditthi). 11. Abandoning... discarding (pahanam... patinissaggo). Comy.: "Both terms are synonymous with the ultimate eradication of wrong views, taking place at stream-entry when the fetter of personality belief is destroyed." 12. Now the Buddha speaks, on his own, of another type of "self-overrater," i.e., of those who have realized any of the eight meditative attainments (samapatti) and believe that this signifies true "effacement" (sallekha). The common meaning of sallekha* is austere practice or asceticism; but in the Buddha's usage it is the radical "effacing" or removal of the defilements. <…> 40220 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi Tep > T: Yes, Nina, it has been extremely difficult for me to summon both > mindfulness and understanding at the instant when, say, a sound is > sensed, and let go of it without clinging (knowing clearly that it > is only a sound arising, nothing more). I have no idea how many billion times more I have to make mental noting like this before it finally sticks. Do you have any helpful 'tips' ? k: When panna arise to see dhammas as not I, not me, not myself, sati has also arise together with panna. So there is no need to summon both mindfulness and understanding at the same instant as they arise together. ;-) isn't panna cetasika wonderful, make practise simple. k: Anatta is important because it leads to salvation. But that does not mean the other two characteristics (dukkha and anicca) are not important, both dukkha and anicca helps one to penetrate the meaning of anatta during the Buddha sasana. Ken O 40221 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Absolute' (was, False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities) Hi, Herman Egbert wrote: >>All dhammas of a particular kind are said to exhibit the same >> >> >esesntial characteristic whenever they arise (and this phenomenon in >fact defines what a dhamma is). > > >H : >Sameness is a relation between two distinct, separate dhammas >(things). The critical thing about relations is that their >characteristic does not inhere in the things they relate. Relations >inhere in a third-party observation. > >For example, it is not a characteristic of the sun that it is bigger >than the moon. That would be a relation abstracted from a certain >external viewpoint, while from another viewpoint the relation the >moon is bigger than the sun may well obtain. > > I agree with all you say here but do not see it as having any application to the kind of relations being discussed. Would you not agree that the gravitational pull between the sun and its planets inheres in the sun? >To say that hearing is the same now as previously or elsewhere is >also a relation, which characteristic does not inhere in hearing. > > The assertion being made is that each dhamma has a characteristic that is unique to that particular class of dhamma. Another way of saying that is that the unique characteristic of dhammas of the same class is the same. If you are saying that because sameness is a relative concept (which of course I agree is so) dhammas cannot be 'absolute', then I'm afraid I do not see the force of that reasoning. >So I think the key word in your explanatory sentence above sentence >is "said" as in "are said to exhibit". > >That it is said is beyond doubt. That it is a problem, for me, is >also beyond doubt. Relations are established by evaluation and >comparison. And many hold that there is salvatory value in coming to >know the characteristics of dhammas, which include, their >relationship of sameness. > > We should not confuse characteristic(s) with relations. The two are different. Characteristics are known first, as I understand it. For example, nama dhammas are known as nama dhammas, and rupa dhammas as rupa dhammas. Knowledge of the conditioning factors that hold between dhammas is a much more advanced level of understanding (of course I am just parroting here). >Relations are, as I explained, established by third-party >observation. Thus, of necessity, the knowledge of relationships is >always brought about by imposition of a selective subject-object >framework on what is experienced. > > I hope I have explained why not all relationships can be so characterised. >As opposed to Nibbana, which is non-relational, non-comparitive, non- >evaluative. I am sure that we agree that the Buddha taught Nibbana >as salvation. I just cannot reconcile the later teachings of the >necessity to come to know the inherent and relational >characteristics of dhammas with Nibbana or a path to it. > > I would be interested to hear what your idea of the development of awareness or understanding at the present moment is, if it has nothing to do with the arising dhammas of that moment ;-)). >The absolute is. Full stop. That's just it. That's all there is. It >ceases to be that the moment it is related or disected or known in >any way. > >Just a little quote from the Paramatthaka Sutta, SN IV,5 > >"Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up >(another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those >who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not >[have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to >either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another >existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on >investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the >seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. >That brahmana who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be >identified in the world? " > > A good quote. I'd like to know what the original term here translated as 'view' is. I do not believe the Buddha taught a path of refraining from having a view about anything. That would not be consistent with the teaching on conditioned dhammas and 'not-self', as I understand that teaching. Jon 40222 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Azita - >... > > > I don't mean to back off from *looking* closely. I think it is >important to look as closely and carefully as one can. When I do so, what seemed >solid and self-existent disappears as such. When I look more and more closely with >reasoning, however, with the intention of making an ultimate analysis, there >is a different sort of falling apart. The reasoning itself falls apart, and >dissolves into convoluted contradictions. I very much believe in the mind's >capacity to directly see what is what, exactly as it is. That capacity, that >perfect congnitive functioning is what I understand by 'wisdom'. And I think that >one way to get to it is to reach the limit of reasoning - to reach the point >that the reasoning falls apart, with no explanation whatsoever working. > >With metta, >Howard > > I am going to disagree with you here.;-)) I would see a danger in the kind of 'looking' and 'reasoning' you refer to. That danger is that it is at base nothing more than a kind of thinking about things, and so likely to be informed by the accumulated wrong view and other akusala that lies latent in all consciousness moments. When there is looking there is a looking at something. But that something cannot be a dhamma unless panna has arisen, since dhammas are directly visible only to panna. Thus, as and when panna arises, dhammas can be known; not, by looking panna is conditioned to arise. As concisely as I can put it. ;-)) Jon 40223 From: Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/26/04 8:34:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > upasaka@a... wrote: > > >Hi, Azita - > >... > > > > > > I don't mean to back off from *looking* closely. I think it is > >important to look as closely and carefully as one can. When I do so, what > seemed > >solid and self-existent disappears as such. When I look more and more > closely with > >reasoning, however, with the intention of making an ultimate analysis, > there > >is a different sort of falling apart. The reasoning itself falls apart, and > > >dissolves into convoluted contradictions. I very much believe in the mind's > > >capacity to directly see what is what, exactly as it is. That capacity, > that > >perfect congnitive functioning is what I understand by 'wisdom'. And I > think that > >one way to get to it is to reach the limit of reasoning - to reach the > point > >that the reasoning falls apart, with no explanation whatsoever working. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > > > > I am going to disagree with you here.;-)) > > I would see a danger in the kind of 'looking' and 'reasoning' you refer > to. That danger is that it is at base nothing more than a kind of > thinking about things, and so likely to be informed by the accumulated > wrong view and other akusala that lies latent in all consciousness > moments. > > When there is looking there is a looking at something. But that > something cannot be a dhamma unless panna has arisen, since dhammas are > directly visible only to panna. Thus, as and when panna arises, dhammas > can be known; not, by looking panna is conditioned to arise. > > As concisely as I can put it. ;-)) > > Jon > > =========================== I'm not really sure you doentirely disagree with me. I'm not speaking about reasoning as yielding truth. I'm speaking about exhausting our reasoning, seeing the ultimate futility of it, seeing through it as ultimately impotent, and developing a distaste for it to the extent that one turns away from it and towards reality. I am also not saying that such is "the way". I'm saying that such is a skillful means. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40225 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation/ Ken's Happy New Year, Ken O. Your comment is interesting : > When panna arise to see dhammas as not I, not me, not myself, > sati has also arise together with panna. So there is no need to > summon both mindfulness and understanding at the same instant > as they arise together. > ;-) isn't panna cetasika wonderful, make practise simple. > Could you please explain a little more along the following lines: 1) In case of a worlding, if sati and panna arise together (like cheese and sausage in an ordered pizza), then what dhamma conditions them to arise in the first place? Or do sati and panna automatically arise in any non-Ariya person? 2) When you refered to sati and panna, did you really mean sati- sampajanna or sati and vipassana-nana ? 3) Is the 'knowing and seeing things the way they really are' same as panna that arises together with sati for a worldling? Or is it true only for an Ariya? Thank you so much for the interesting thought, Ken. Warmest regards, Tep ========= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Tep > > > T: Yes, Nina, it has been extremely difficult for me to summon both > > mindfulness and understanding at the instant when, say, a sound is > > sensed, and let go of it without clinging (knowing clearly that it > > is only a sound arising, nothing more). I have no idea how many > billion times more I have to make mental noting like this before it > finally sticks. Do you have any helpful 'tips' ? > > k: When panna arise to see dhammas as not I, not me, not myself, > sati has also arise together with panna. So there is no need to > summon both mindfulness and understanding at the same instant as they > arise together. ;-) isn't panna cetasika wonderful, make practise > simple. > > k: Anatta is important because it leads to salvation. But that does > not mean the other two characteristics (dukkha and anicca) are not > important, both dukkha and anicca helps one to penetrate the meaning > of anatta during the Buddha sasana. > > > > > Ken O > 40226 From: mlnease Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:50am Subject: Sudden Change Best wishes to all whose lives have been touched by the earthquakes and tsunamis. For me this is a stark reminder of how quickly and uncontrollably change occurs and that each moment is an opportunity not to be taken for granted. mike 40227 From: Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sudden Change Hi, Mike (and Christine and all) - In a message dated 12/26/04 10:51:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, mlnease@z... writes: > Best wishes to all whose lives have been touched by the earthquakes > and tsunamis. For me this is a stark reminder of how quickly and > uncontrollably change occurs and that each moment is an opportunity > not to be taken for granted. > > mike > ====================== I would like to add my voice to those voicing grief, and all those feeling grief, at this terrible tragedy. This is inexpressibly sad. May the people directly affected somehow manage to find a degree of peace. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40228 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 8:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi Tep > 1) In case of a worlding, if sati and panna arise together (like > cheese and sausage in an ordered pizza), then what dhamma conditions them to arise in the first place? Or do sati and panna automatically > arise in any non-Ariya person? k: Faith and listening to dhamma (including - reading etc) will conditioned panna to arise. Sati can arise without panna but when panna arise, sati will arise. This arisen of panna and sati is applicable to worldings and ariyan. Frankly, to me doing mindfulness without panna is basically wasting our time, not conducive to the path. In short doing mindfulness without knowing the three characteristics does not help us out of samasara. So the best way is still wise attention (understand the three characteristics of all dhammas = panna) > 3) Is the 'knowing and seeing things the way they really are' same > as panna that arises together with sati for a worldling? Or is it true only for an Ariya? k: Not the same. MN 1 Mulapariyaya sutta shows there is a difference. Knowing and seeing things the way they really are - I prefer the word fully understand - is applicable to Arahants only. Even Noble disciples that are still learning, may fully understand but do not completely fully understand as an Arahant. Worldings like me, does not understanding it, so knowing and seeing the ways they really are is definitely not applicable to me, but there is a way out - again - wise attention > 2) When you refered to sati and panna, did you really mean sati- > sampajanna or sati and vipassana-nana ? k: I am not good at pali terms, can someone please explain these two terms - sati-sampajanna and vipassana-nana. Ken O 40229 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 9:18am Subject: Re: Sudden Change The same wishes from me. I think of all the people in South East Asia Metta and karuna for them Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mlthatnease" wrote: > > Best wishes to all whose lives have been touched by the earthquakes > and tsunamis. For me this is a stark reminder of how quickly and > uncontrollably change occurs and that each moment is an opportunity > not to be taken for granted. > > mike 40230 From: Larry Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 9:57am Subject: Re: Apologies Herman: "I sincerely regret having expressed myself lately in a way that may have been unacceptable for some people." Hi Herman, Instead of regret you could practice the mindfulness of the dhamma of the six sense bases, noticing that this fetter arose dependent on this sense base, most notably the eye base and visible object encountered in reading emails. Of course there is no need to stop reading emails or even stop reacting to them. Then you would run out of a handy object of meditation. It would be good though to recognize the fetter as a fetter, in this case dosa, dislike or hatred. Larry 40231 From: Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. In a message dated 12/26/2004 2:04:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: S: I’m rather mystified. Unless you’re giving false views here another connotation to refer to other perversions and not to ditthi, I haven’t seen anyone else or any sutta or comy supporting your position apart from James (and as I say, even his position is a little different, which I’ll respond to later). You’d have to elaborate. Hi Sarah I'm sure this is the discrepency. I am using "view"as used in English, not as used in Pali perhaps. I am saying, that a mind that still thinks "mine," and I am," is not free from "seeing things" in relation to a self-view. I will call this a "sense-of-self" instead of calling it self view. Is that easier to swallow? Since you brought up Nyanatiloka's Dictionary, let's look at the definition of Ditthi... "Ditthi (lit.: 'sight',; dis to see): View, Belief, Speculative Opinion, Insight. Nyanatiloka defines Sakkaya-Ditthi as "Personality Belief." This is the "belief" that a streamwinner eliminates. That fits with the way I see it just fine. Is it a view?, yes, if a view is limited to being seen as a "belief." I have been using "view" in a much broader sense than that. Perversions of perception... If ignorance is the most fundamental delusion upon which all others are based, the question becomes -- what is ignorance ignorant of? You correctly were pointing out ignorance is ignorant of the impermanent, suffering, and selfless aspects of phenomena. This means ignorance still has the inherent tendency to see things as self at some level or another. To me this means there is still a sense-of-self. To overcome sense-of-self is the hardest delusion to overcome, not the easiest one to overcome. If I descrive it in this way, does that more accord with the way you are seeing it? TG 40232 From: m. nease Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hi Sarah, ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2004 12:06 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. > 'This is mine' refers to > craving,taking objects as belonging to self. 'This am I' refers to mana > and 'This is my self' refers to the personality view, sakkaya ditthi, > identified with the 5 khandhas. > . >>See#25213 for my comments. Here 'this am I' refers to mana. Sorry to have missed this the first time around, this "This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am" from the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59) (and many others, I think), is really valuable--I hadn't sorted these out in this way before. Really an important distinction--is this explained per se in the Abhidhamma? Thanks, mike 40233 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: latent tendencies Hi Larry, Phil, just adding one point: latent tendencies do not arise, but they condition akusala cittas. Perhaps the word present could confuse some people, suggesting that they arise, but they lie dormant in ech citta, they are accumulated from one citta to the next. Nina. op 26-12-2004 03:18 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > "When one experiences pleasure, if one does not understand feeling, the > tendency to lust is present. When one experiences pain, if one does not > understand feeling, the tendency to aversion is present." (SN XXXVI.3) > > Hi Phil, > > You asked how one could tell when a sutta is talking about path > consciousness. Nina pointed out the pattern "he is not aware...he is > aware". Another clue is any talk of tendencies (anusaya). Tendencies are > always present until enlightenment. > 40234 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Dear TG, Sarah, Azita, See my last post on this, TG, where I tried to explain. The confusion may be now just on the words that are used. The pali can clear this up. Wrong view is unwholesome but not all unwholesomeness is wrong view. Micchaditthi, wrong view, includes sakkayaditthi, personality view, and several kinds that Sarah listed quoting from Nyanaponika's notes. It does not include conceit, mana, delusion, moha, those are different akusala cetasikas. The three ways of attachment to self, let me repeat: In the suttas we often read: this is mine, eta.m mama, this am I , esoham asmi, this is myself, eso me attaa. The Book of Analysis and the Co explain these as: lobha, conceit and ditthi. See B.B. Root of Existence, p. 10. Asmi mana is one form of conceit. There are many forms. Also the commentaries explain it this way. The sotapanna can be angry but he does not take it for my anger and that is already a great benefit. As Azita explains, it does not lead to a real bad deed or speech. It is very encouraging to know this. It shows that it is a long way to arahatship, but that it *can* be done. The sotapanna is sure to reach final liberation. This is also stated in the suttas. He has crossed over doubt, and, without someone else's help. He had to develop his own understanding. Nina. op 26-12-2004 05:10 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: Azita: I can see how you are using 'view' here. However I > understand in Abhidhamma terms, Is that all wrong view [micca ditthi] > is eradicated at the moment of sotapatimaggacitta. > > Azita: well, I'll put my hand up here, so I'm the second one arguing > this point. 40235 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] subject to change. Hi Phil, Ken O, I needed time to think. Subject to change: vipari.naama. This is an aspect of dukkha, also explained in the Dispeller of Delusion. Dukkha has different aspects and the following three can be discerned: dukkha/dukkha, physical pain and mental suffering, domanassa. dukkha as subject to change, vipari.naama dukkha: pleasant feeling changes, that is unsatisfactoriness. Sankhara dukkha: the dhammas that arise because of conditions and fall away are dukkha. This is dukkha in the deepest sense and hard to see. Depending on the capability of people to be led to enlightenment, the Buddha would speak about different levels of dukkha. Nina. op 26-12-2004 13:31 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > > Hi Phil > >> Ph: What does the Thai commentary say about this "all form is > impermanent, suffering and subject to change" that appears so often. > Why doesn't it mention not-self? > > > In the Dispeller of Delusion, Classification of the Bases > << 237. But what is taught by the Tathagatha in this Suttanta > Division? The characteristic of no-self in the twelve bases. For > the Fully Enlightened One, when teaching the characterisitic of > no-self, teaches it by means of impermanent, or by means of > suffering, or by means of [both] the impermanent and suffering. >> > Ken O 40236 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi Ken O and Tep, sati sampajañña: they are the cetasikas sati and pañña. Sampajañña is translated also as clear comprehension. The Co to the Satipatthana sutta explains four kinds: (See the Way, Ven. Soma translation, and also other commentaries): in short: you know to what purpose you are developing samatha and/or vipassana; you know whether what you do is suitable (such as knowing whether the place where you stay is suitable), clear comprehension of resort, which is the object of samatha and/ or vipassana, and non-delusion as to the object. There is much more to say, but that is too long now. Sati sampajañña is necessary in samatha and in vipassana, it is not theoretical or just intellectual understanding. Vipassana ñana: stages of insight. See Path of Discrimination and Visuddhimagga. I spoke with Philip about the first stage, knowing what the mind-door is, not just in theory, and I think we need more discussions about this subject. This will also be helpful for myself to have points clarified. Tep, I need more time to think of an answerto your question how to prepare for reaching stages of insight. Your points raised to Ken O are very good. Nina. op 26-12-2004 17:45 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > k: I am not good at pali terms, can someone please explain these two > terms - sati-sampajanna and vipassana-nana. 40237 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies Hi Herman and Larry, Herman, better not leave. Then I have to think of you again to make you come back, that happened several times. Imagine, my father's dog used to leave the room when we played Schubert, he only likes Bach and baroque. But now he gets used to Schubert. For Christmas we played quatre mains Schubert (Grand Rondo) and the dog liked it and listened. I found your example so useful telling the difference when you were not reading mails and when you were involved. We think of many odd things, but when we read Dhamma we think more of Dhamma. In case of stopping, as Larry said:Then you would run out of a handy object of meditation. I find that it helps me to try to answer mails and to correspond. Indeed it is a way of bhavana. Nina. op 26-12-2004 18:57 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > > > Herman: "I sincerely regret having expressed myself lately in a way > that may have been unacceptable for some people." > > Hi Herman, > > Instead of regret you could practice the mindfulness of the dhamma of > the six sense bases, noticing that this fetter arose dependent on > this sense base, most notably the eye base and visible object > encountered in reading emails. Of course there is no need to stop > reading emails or even stop reacting to them. Then you would run out > of a handy object of meditation. It would be good though to recognize > the fetter as a fetter, in this case dosa, dislike or hatred. > > Larry 40238 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 0:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is time ? Nama time being a matter of sankhara ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Joop, > > We've been discussing for years the very delicate question, "is > impermanence real". Admittedly my proposal is a bit of a stretch because > if the water element is time it would have to cross the insurmountable > barrier between nama and rupa. Maybe there are two times, rupa time > and nama time, with nama time being a matter of that mysterious > word "sankhara". > > Larry Hallo Harry L: Maybe there are two times, nama time and rupa time. J: Yes, maybe. But do you still think rupa time is the water element ? (I don't, I think time is a rupa-like ultimate reality) And nama-time and (in another dimension) rupa time may be an explanation why a rupa is existing 17 times longer than a nama, they exist in different time-realities so to say. New to me is the question : what is nama time? Maybe it's a matter of that mysterious word "sankhara", you say. My first thought reading was you made a typo and did mean "samsara": the wheel of samsara turning in time, while in nibbana time doesn't exist any more. That's a good idea too but not what you meant. I think I had to studie more "sankhara" before evaluating your possibility. Metta Joop 40239 From: m. nease Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 1:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. Hi TG and Sarah, Hope you'll pardon my butting in: ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, December 25, 2004 6:19 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. > We all compartmentalize knowledge in ways that suit us. As far as I'm > concerned, only an Arahat has eliminated all false views. You're the only > one I've > seen in here so far arguing your point that a sotapanna has permanently > eliminated all false views. The only demonstrations I have seen you > provide from > Sutta references and commentaries have all provided evidence to support > the > position I'm taking. I've been involved in some rather circular discussion regarding 'views' and have come to the tentative conclusion that they've mainly (if not entirely) been based on differing translation of 'views'. > You somehow think a conceit isn't a false view or false view oriented. I think Sarah's right--two completely different and even antithetical factors. > You > are taking a position that greed, hatred, and delusion can still flourish > even > after the mind has been cleansed of false views. I would certainly take that position. Unless one defines 'views' to include the three unwholesome roots in a very general way, there is no problem here. The 'di.t.thi' here that Sarah's referring to is a unique mental factor (or one of a set); it IS different from maa.na, not a generality or a way of just referring to all and any 'unenlightened' cittas/cetasikas. So it seems to me, anyway... Just my two cents' worth, hope I haven't misunderstood. mike 40240 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 1:46pm Subject: Re: Meditation Hello Ken O. (and Nina), First, let me thank Nina for kindly defining the pali terms (sat- sampajanna and vipassana-nana) for us, namely: sampajanna is clear comprehension (which is also a panna) and vipassana-nana means stages of insight. I assume it is alright for me now to continue our unfinished discussion business. You made the following assertions in Message # 40228 [You know, I like your no-nonsense style in answering dhamma questions.]: 1. "Frankly, to me doing mindfulness without panna is basically wasting our time, not conducive to the path. In short doing mindfulness without knowing the three characteristics does not help us out of samasara. So the best way is still wise attention (understand the three characteristics of all dhammas = panna)". 2. "Knowing and seeing things the way they really are - I prefer the word fully understand - is applicable to Arahants only". When I think of 'sati', it is always the mental quality which is the seventh factor of the Eightfold Path and, as such, it is not an island. Being the 7th Path factor, it is accompanied by sampajanna as explained in Thanissaro Bhikkhu's introduction of DN 22 : "The role of mindfulness is to keep the mind properly grounded in the present moment in a way that will keep it on the path. To make an analogy, Awakening is like a mountain on the horizon, the destination to which you are driving a car. Mindfulness is what remembers to keep attention focused on the road to the mountain, rather than letting it stay focused on glimpses of the mountain or get distracted by other paths leading away from the road". I think "knowing and seeing things the way they really are", or yatha- bhuta-nana-dassana, belongs to the Strem-entry level, and it is not the same as full understanding (parinna). Further, full understanding is the quality of all 4 Ariyas-- not that of the Arahat only. There is another term, direct knowledge (see MN 149), that I believe is the supramundane insight knowledge at the Arahat level. However, I am not 100% sure! Anyone who knows that I am inaccurate here, please correct me. Thank you. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Tep > > > > 1) In case of a worlding, if sati and panna arise together (like > > cheese and sausage in an ordered pizza), then what dhamma > conditions them to arise in the first place? Or do sati and panna > automatically > > arise in any non-Ariya person? > > k: Faith and listening to dhamma (including - reading etc) will > conditioned panna to arise. Sati can arise without panna but when > panna arise, sati will arise. This arisen of panna and sati is > applicable to worldings and ariyan. Frankly, to me doing > mindfulness without panna is basically wasting our time, not > conducive to the path. In short doing mindfulness without knowing > the three characteristics does not help us out of samasara. So the > best way is still wise attention (understand the three > characteristics of all dhammas = panna) > > > 3) Is the 'knowing and seeing things the way they really are' same > > as panna that arises together with sati for a worldling? Or is it > true only for an Ariya? > > k: Not the same. MN 1 Mulapariyaya sutta shows there is a > difference. Knowing and seeing things the way they really are - I > prefer the word fully understand - is applicable to Arahants only. > Even Noble disciples that are still learning, may fully understand > but do not completely fully understand as an Arahant. Worldings like > me, does not understanding it, so knowing and seeing the ways they > really are is definitely not applicable to me, but there is a way out > - again - wise attention > > > > 2) When you refered to sati and panna, did you really mean sati- > > sampajanna or sati and vipassana-nana ? > > k: I am not good at pali terms, can someone please explain these two > terms - sati-sampajanna and vipassana-nana. > > > Ken O 40242 From: m. nease Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 2:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi Jon and Howard, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 5:31 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... > When there is looking there is a looking at something. But that > something cannot be a dhamma unless panna has arisen, since dhammas are > directly visible only to panna. Really--this is new to me. Moha, lobha, dosa can't take paramattha dhammas as objects and misunderstand them? Do they always take only pa.n.natti? > Thus, as and when panna arises, dhammas > can be known; not, by looking panna is conditioned to arise. This does make sense. mike 40243 From: kullawat khantikoon Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking of all friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand thank for ur nice wish from thailand 40244 From: Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 10:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. In a message dated 12/26/2004 11:59:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: Dear TG, Sarah, Azita, See my last post on this, TG, where I tried to explain. The confusion may be now just on the words that are used. Hi Nina, Sarah , Mike, all Can a streamwinner -- "view things falsely," but not have "false view?" If the answer is yes, then the word "view" in "false view" needs to be changed to "belief" to make it acceptable in the English language IMO. If a streamwinner cannot "view things falsely," then how can they still have perversions-of-perception regarding permanence, pleasurableness, and self? TG 40245 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (206) Dear Dhamma Friends, K. vatthu classification on citta L. vinnana classification on citta M. puggala classification on citta In puggala classification on citta, cittas are 1. 44 asikkha cittas 2. 56 sikkha cittas 3. 54 puthujjana cittas Asikkha cittas or cittas that can arise in arahats are a) 7 ahetuka akusala vipaka cittas b) 8 ahetuka kusala vipaka cittas c) 8 sahetuka kusala vipaka cittas( 8 mahavipaka cittas ) d)20 kiriya cittas e) 1 arahatta phala citta ----- 44 cittas No other citta can arise in arahats apart from these 44 cittas. 20 kiriya cittas are 3 ahetuka kiriya cittas, 8 mahakiriya cittas, 5 rupakiriya cittas, and 4 arupakiriya cittas. Sikkha cittas or cittas of ariyas excluding arahats are a) 23 kamavacara vipaka cittas( 7 aku + 8 ahetu ku + 8 sahetu ku ) b) 2 ahetuka kiriya cittas ( pancadvaravajjana and manodvaravajjana) c) 21 kusala cittas ( 8 mahaku + 5 rupaku + 4 arupaku + 4 lokuttraku) d) 7 akusala cittas (4 ditthi cittas and 1 vicikiccha citta excluded) e) 3 phala cittas ( 1 arahatta phala citta is excluded ) ----------- 56 cittas Apart from these 56 cittas no other citta can arise in these 7 ariyas ( 1.arahatta maggatthana puggala, 2. anagami phalatthana puggala, 3. anagami maggatthana puggala, 4. sakadagami phalatthana puggala, 5. sakadagami maggatthana puggala, 6. sotapatti phalatthana puggala, and 7. sotapatti maggatthana puggala ). Puthujjana cittas are a) 12 akusala cittas b) 17 kusala cittas ( 8 mahakusala + 5 rupakusala + 4 arupakusala ) c) 23 kamavacara vipaka cittas(7 akusalavi+ 8 kusalavi+ 8 mahavipaka) d) 2 ahetuka kiriya cittas ( panca- and mano-dvaravajjana cittas ) ------ 54 cittas These cittas can arise in putthujana puggalas. So in most of us these 54 cittas can arise. Again 5 rupakusala and 4 arupakusala are rupa jhanas and arupa jhanas. If we do not have any jhana, then only 45 cittas will be possible to arise in puthujjana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40247 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 5:22pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (207) Dear Dhamma Friends, K. vatthu classification on citta L. vinnana classification on citta M. puggala classification on citta N. patisandhi classification on citta 1. 1 apaya patisandhi citta( ahetuka akusala upekkha santirana citta) 2. 9 kama sugati patisandhi cittas( 1 santirana + 8 mahavipaka cittas) 3. 5 rupa patisandhi cittas ( 5 rupavipaka cittas ) 4. 4 arupa patisandhi cittas ( 4 arupavipaka cittas) 5.70 anapatisandhi cittas ( 70 vithi cittas ) ---- 89 cittas in total 19 cittas can do the function of linking and they are called patisandhi cittas or linking consciousness. Ahetuka akusala vipaka upekkha santirana citta is the patisandhi citta of hell beings, animals, petas, and asurakayas. 1 ahetuka kusala upekkha santirana citta is the patisandhi citta of some human beings who are born with congential blindness, born with congenital deafness and some of lower devas. 8 mahavipaka cittas are patisandhi cittas of human beings and devas. 5 rupavipaka cittas are patisandhi cittas of rupa brahmas. 4 arupavipaka cittas are patisandhi cittas of arupa brahmas. 0 citta is present in asannisatta rupa brahma. They are born with rupa-patisandhi. They never have any citta at all for their whole life. Once I read someone has written that asannisattas have 2 cittas and one is patisandhi citta and another citta is cuti citta. These are the only cittas in asannisattas. This cannot be true. Asannisatta rupa brahmas do not have any citta for their whole life as long as they are asannisattas. They are born with rupa-patisandhi and they die with rupa-cuti. This is because of bhavana power of marana-asanna- javana-rupakusala-cittas of immediate past life. When this kamma expires another patisandhi citta has to arise and samsara has to continue.[Many things to discuss at this point.] 70 Anapatisandhi cittas or 70 vithi cittas do not involve in patisandhi function, life-continuing function and cuti function. Actually these 70 cittas are not patisandhi cittas. So they are anapatisandhi cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40248 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 5:55pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (208) Dear Dhamma Friends, K. vatthu classification on citta L. vinnana classification on citta M. puggala classification on citta N. patisandhi classification on citta O. frequency classification on citta There are 89 total cittas. 8 cittas are supramundane consciousness or 8 lokuttara cittas and they are highest consciousness ever exist. Other cittas are mundane consciousness or loki cittas. When loki cittas are investigated only 54 kamavacara cittas are abundant and 27 cittas just arise in few beings. Yes. They arise in just few beings. According to frequency of arising there are a) 54 kamavacara cittas or 54 kama cittas b) 27 mahaggata cittas or 27 jhana cittas c) 8 lokuttara cittas ---------- 89 cittas in total These 89 cittas can also be classified as a) 54 kama cittas b) 27 majjhima cittas c) 8 panita cittas or uttara cittas ---- 89 cittas in total Many classifications of citta have been discussed. Any citta of interest can be put under one of these classification. There are illusionary lives as we define them but actually in ultimate sense there are only cittas, cetasikas, rupas, and nibbana. A life as we all know starts with patisandhi citta, which has to home on hadaya vatthu when in pancavokara bhumis or beings with 5 khandha. And that life ends after passing away of cuti citta, which again has to home on hadaya vatthu when in pancavokara bhumis or beings with 5 khandhas. In between these 2 cittas are cittas. These cittas if they are process-free they are all bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness and all these life-continuinbg cittas have to depend on hadaya vatthu when in pancavokara bhumis. When cittas are in process or when they are in vithi varas, most cittas have to depend on hadaya vatthu. This hadaya vatthu is not a single rupa. It lasts only 17 cittakkhanas or 17 moments. Some cittas have to depend on pancavatthus. That is cakkhuvinnana citta has to depend on cakkhu vatthu and sota on sota, ghana on ghana, jivha on jivha, and kaya on kaya vatthu. Cittas have to arise grounding on vatthu and they have to hold an arammana or object. Citta is like a pole putting on a base or ground and leaning against something like wall, rope, tree, house, or any other supporters. Without rupa ground or rupa base, no citta can arise except cittas or arupa brahmas. And by the same token without supporter like wall, rope, tree the pole cannot stand and has to collapse. There is no citta that does not have any arammana or object. When citta is functioning as patisandhi citta, that citta is generally assumed as consciousness of certain beings. 19 kinds of patisandhi cittas mark 31 realms of existence or 31 bhumis and each is known as a being or satta. But these beings or sattas are just pannatti and there are only citta, cetasikas, rupa and nibbana. But as conventionally known there are human beings and animals as we definitely see. Superhumans like beings with abhinna or superpower they can see all 31 realms. These are called pavatti. Pavatti means 'arising of cittas and cetasikas'. When these arising are the very first in a life, they serve as patisandhi cittas and depending on these cittas, there have to exist 31 bhumis or 31 planes of existence. These patisandhi cittas are not vithi cittas and their arising or 'pavatti' is known as 'vithimutta-pavatti'. All bhavanga cittas and all cuti cittas are also 'vithimutta- pavatti'. 31 realms or 31 bhumis or 31 planes of existence will be discussed later on. In 'vithi-pavatti' or arising of vithi cittas there are many different processes or many different vithi varas. These will be discussed in the coming posts. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40249 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:48pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Htoo and Nina > > Htoo - You said that since due to manusaa patisandhi, it means that > the tadarammana cittas should be also kusala vipaka. I like to know > the source of this statement > > Nina, I love technical details, the more complex, the more fun it > will going to be. > > Ken O ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken O, There are 10 kusala vipaka cittas that can do the job of tadarammana cittas. But there is only ONE CITTA of akusala vipaka that can do the job of tadarammana citta. Anyway tadarammana cittas are not akusala or kusala cittas. Tadarammana cittas are all vipaka cittas. As there are 11 tadarammana cittas, in terms of frequency most may be kusala vipaka cittas. In hell beings, in animals, in petas, and in asurakayas when somanassa arise then somanassa tadarammana may follow somanassa javana cittas. There is a rare time when fire of hell stops temporally. There is time for animals when they are delighted. There is time for petas when they are delighted. There is time for asurakaya when they are delighted. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40250 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 7:15pm Subject: Re: Sudden Change --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mlnease" wrote: > > Best wishes to all whose lives have been touched by the earthquakes > and tsunamis. For me this is a stark reminder of how quickly and > uncontrollably change occurs and that each moment is an opportunity > not to be taken for granted. > > mike Dear Mike and others, living at sea level as I do, and often threatened by cyclones, the thought occurs to me during the cyclone season, that maybe I won't be here when the cyclone has gone. It is a stark reminder as you say, Mike, but if only we could remember this every day bec. destruction and mayhem can strike so suddenly, anytime, anywhere. May those beings affected by this disaster, not have to suffer for long. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 40251 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 8:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Hi Htoo that is logical reasoning by assuming that due to a manusaa patisandhi the tadarammana cittas should be kusala vipaka. The one citta of aksuala vipaka that can do the job of tadarammana citta does not mean that the tadarammana cittas of a human should be kusala vipaka since there are more kusala vipakas citta than akusala vipaka cittas. By assuming this type of logical reasoning, I think there is likely for us to err. Still I like to have the source of this statment Ken O 40252 From: Ken O Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 9:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi Tep and (Nina) T: When I think of 'sati', it is always the mental quality which is > the seventh factor of the Eightfold Path and, as such, it is not an island. Being the 7th Path factor, it is accompanied by sampajanna as explained in Thanissaro Bhikkhu's introduction of DN 22 : "The role of mindfulness is to keep the mind properly grounded in the present moment in a way that will keep it on the path. To make an analogy, Awakening is like a mountain on the horizon, the destination to which you are driving a car. Mindfulness is what remembers to keep attention focused on the road to the mountain, rather than letting it stay focused on glimpses of the mountain or get distracted by other paths leading away from the road". k: Sati does not arise alone. In each arisen of alobha and adosa, sati will arise. However it does not mean that panna will arise when sati arise. Again sati will arise with panna but not vice versa. I would prefer to use those definition written by Nina on Cetasikas quoting from Abhidhamma texts, << The Atthasalini then gives another definition of mindfulness: ... Mindfulness has "not floating away" as its characteristic, unforgetfulness as its function, guarding, or the state of facing the object, as its manifestation, firm remembrance (sanna) or application in mindfulness as regards the body, etc., as proximate cause. It should be regarded as a door-past from being firmly established in the object, and as a door-keeper from guarding the door of the senses. The definition of mindfulness in the Visuddhimagga (XIV, 141) is similar to this definition. Mindfulness is non-forgetful of what is kusala and it keeps us from akusala. Also those who do not know about the Dhamma are able to perform wholesome deeds, but it is through the Dhamma that one can know more precisely what is kusala and what is akusala. Association with the good friend in Dhamma, listening to the Dhamma and considering it are most helpful conditions for mindfulness in the field of dana, sila, samatha and insight, thus, for all levels of mindfulness. The generosity, the patience and all the other good qualities of the true friend. in Dhamma can remind one to develop such qualities as well. >> k: In short sati is non-forgetfulness, it is not panna. It does not have the function to understand the three characterisitics. Panna is to me equated as sampajanna. That is why the practise is always sati-sampajanna. T - I think "knowing and seeing things the way they really are", or > yatha- bhuta-nana-dassana, belongs to the Strem-entry level, and it is not the same as full understanding (parinna). Further, full understanding is the quality of all 4 Ariyas-- not that of the Arahat only. There is another term, direct knowledge (see MN 149), that I believe is the supramundane insight knowledge at the Arahat level. However, I am not 100% sure! Anyone who knows that I am inaccurate here, please correct me. k: thanks for correcting me. Yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana, interesting word. Nina - could you help again on this term. thanks. I think it is good to quote the pali rather than the English term then we are able to be concise. It helps in the understanding of suttas. k: Full understanding only belongs to Arahant and not the rest of the Noble disciple(they are also refer to learners, need further learning). Arahant are considered those that do not need further learning. For MN 149, will check out later as I am not at home right now. Ken O 40253 From: m. nease Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 9:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sudden Change Hi Azita, ----- Original Message ----- From: "gazita2002" To: Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 7:15 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Sudden Change > It is a stark reminder as you say, Mike, but if only we could > remember this every day bec. destruction and mayhem can strike so > suddenly, anytime, anywhere. Yes, and acutally does every time, everywhere... > May those beings affected by this disaster, not have to suffer > for long. Yes--and for all disasters always. mike 40254 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 8:17pm Subject: Fierce Powers ... !!! Friends: Comparison of Destruction: 4000 people have so far been counted as killed here on Sri Lanka due to high Tsunami Waves following the major earthquake deep in Indian Ocean. Fishermen living in huts along the coast were most badly hit. Quite tragic! May all who looks for merit, help the victims in whatever way they can, by supporting the helping organisations... However, the destruction of lust, anger & confusion are killing millions of people ao. beings prematurely each day !!! These mental forces are much more destructive than any earthquake! The vibrations of the major earthquake could be sensed during meditation. So can these fierce forces of Greed, Hate & Ignorance... These invisible 'killers' though, never hit the worldwide attention on Television!!! May they in the future achieve a proper consideration... Floods: Friends, there are these four floods. Which four? The flood of sensing, the flood of becoming, the flood of views, & the flood of ignorance. These are the four floods... Samyutta Nikaya XLV.171 Surprise: Death carries off the man while distracted by gathering the flowers of sense-pleasures, exactly & even so as a great flood carries away a sleeping village. Dhammapada 47 Off Guard: Death sweeps away the man distracted, not yet had his fill of sensual pleasures, even as he gathers these flowers. Dhammapada 48 Engaged-Encaged: When a man is in love with sons, friends & family, his mind is passionately absorbed therein. So distracted, the King of Death carry him off as a raging wave sweeps away the sleeping village. Dhammapada 287 Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 40255 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 10:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Mike m. nease wrote: >Hi Jon and Howard, > > > >>When there is looking there is a looking at somethin?. But that >>something cannot be a dhamma unless panna has arisen, since dhammas are >>directly visible only to panna. >> >> > >Really--this is new to me. Moha, lobha, dosa can't take paramattha dhammas >as objects and misunderstand them? Do they always take only pa.n.natti? > > As I understand it, paramattha dhammas can indeed be the object of akusala consciousness, and are regularly so, but in that case they are not seen as they truly are (and the same applies for that matter when dhammas are the object of kusala consciousness that is not accompanied by panna, or of vipaka or kiriya consciousness). It is for this reason that we live in a world of concepts, meaning that we take to be real what is not in fact real but is a conceptual idea of reality. (For the enlightened being, conceptual thinking still occurs, but it is not mistaken for reality.) To pick up on another thread of yours, this mistaking for real what is not real is not the same as the mental factor that is 'wrong view'. Wrong view involves holding to a view about something, but (mis)taking for real what is not does not necessarily involve any holding to a view; it necesarily involves only not seeing clearly what is actually what (= ignorance). Jon 40256 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 10:23pm Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, James I replied the other day with a question about mundane jhana as Right Concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path. I'd now like to reply to the rest of your post. buddhatrue wrote: >Friend Jon, > >Jon: What I have said, however, is that in my view it is not a 'how >to' for the beginner. > >James: Okay, sorry to have misquoted you then. But now I have >another question for you: In Buddhism, who is a beginner, who is >intermediate, and who is advanced? (Just wondering what these things >mean to you). > > I was just speaking conventinally. I know that I am definitely in the 'beginner' category, since awarenss and indight are weak and undeveloped. Many of those to whom the suttas were addressed must have been in the advanced caegory, since they became enlightened in that lifetime. There are some interesting references to beginner'beginning level of insight etc in the Sallekha Sutta materila that Sarha has quoted in her post to you. >Jon: On my reading of the texts, it would be a mistake to equate >Right Concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path with mundane jhana. > >James: Jon, that is what the Buddha said is Right Concentration! How >could it be a mistake to equate Right Concentration with Jhana when >the Buddha taught that? I am not sure what texts you are reading >(maybe you could quote them?) but they must not be the right ones. >Here is what the Buddha said: > >"An Analysis of the Path" > >"AND WHAT IS RIGHT CONCENTRATION? There is the case where a monk -- >quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) >qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure >born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. >With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & >remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, >unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- >internal assurance. With the fading of rapture he remains in >equanimity, mindful, & fully alert, and physically sensitive of >pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, and of him the >Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable >abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the >earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains >in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither >pleasure nor pain. THIS IS CALLED RIGHT CONCENTRATION." (caps mine) >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html > >Right concentration is jhana, plain and simple, and nothing is left >open for interpretation. It cannot get any more obvious. Black and >White…plain as the nose on your face…etc., etc., ;-)) > >Jon: For one thing, the path factors do not arise as individual >dhammas, but only in combination and with right awareness as their >leader. The development of the path factor of Right Concentration >occurs at any moment of the development of insight. > >James: I do not believe in "path factors" which all arise at the >same moment. This is a theory invented by Buddhaghosa, by taking >one line of one sutta out of context, and it doesn't match the >suttas. Read the above link for a proper understanding of the Noble >Eightfold Path. > The sutta itself is silent on the question of whether the path factors are descriptive of the moment of path entry or development of the path, or are factors to be developed separately and individually, so either explanation involves an element of interpretation. All the ancient texts that I am familiar with either state or assume that the Noble Eightfold Path designates the actual moment of enlightenment (at any 1 of the 4 stages), when all 8 path factors are present. Some of these texts also refer to mundane insight as moments when some but not all path factors are present. To my knowledge, the idea of each of the 8 path factors being in and of itself an aspect of 'practice' is a relatively recent one. There is some interesting material on all this in the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation of SN. I hope to get around to citing some of it in a later post. Jon 40257 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Apologies --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends Herman & James, > > I'm sure we all appreciate your kind words, Herman, I don't have much time > now, but I'm prompted by your message to try and respond to some of your > concerns and also James's helpful comments on the Sallekha Sutta, MN8. > Friends Sarah and Herman, Thanks for the apology to everyone, Herman, but I don't think that what you wrote was as bad as all that! Sarah once compared me to a wild wolf who attacks people with my words. ;-)) (Hey, what do you expect me to be with all these tasty, blind sheep following the commentaries?? ;-)) Anyway, I didn't quite understand what you wrote but I thought the imagery was interesting. Sarah, I will give you a detailed response later, but I first want to read two rather lengthy articles by Thanissaro Bhikkhu on stream- entry: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/stream2.html I want to really make sure that I have all the information possible. This was TG's fight, and I even suggested that he drop it, but now I find myself sucked into this discussion. Oh well, it is always educational for me and of benefit to have to defend my understanding of the Buddha's teaching. I'm sure that if we agreed I wouldn't learn nearly as much. Just a quick comment though, I have read your post and I don't see any quotes from the suttas. If you can't support your position with the commentaries AND the suttas, then it isn't very strong; especially since I am claiming that the commentaries can't be trusted regarding this issue. Metta, James 40258 From: nina Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:38am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 126 and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 126 and Tiika Text: Ch. XIV, 126. But though it is singlefold according to its individual essence as the characteristic of being felt, it is nevertheless threefold as to kind, that is to say, profitable, unprofitable, and indeterminate. Herein, it should be understood that when associated with the profitable consciousness described in the way beginning '(1)-(8) that of the sense sphere is eightfold, being classified according to joy, equanimity, knowledge, and prompting' (par.83), it is 'profitable'; [54] that associated with unprofitable consciousness is 'unprofitable'; that associated with indeterminate consciousness is 'indeterminate'. ------------------------ Note 54, taken from the Tiika; . 'This should be regarded as a secondary characteristic (upalakka.na) of profitable feeling, that is to say, the fact that whatever profitable feeling there is, is all associated with profitable consciousness. That, however, is not for the purpose of establishing its profitableness. N: Establishing, the Pali has: sa.msiddhi: successful, accomplished. Text: Tiika Text: For the profitableness of profitable feeling is not due to its association with profitable consciousness, but rather to wise attention and so on. That is why he said "as to kind (jaati)". So too in the case of the unprofitable and so on' (Pm.481). N: As to kind: as to jaati: the jatis of kusala, akusala and indeterminate, which includes vipaaka and kiriya. The Tiika emphasizes here right attention, yoniso manaasikara, as the main reason for kusala feeling to be kusala and unwise attention, ayoniso manaasikara, for akusala feeling to be akusala. We read in the Expositor (I, 84) that the proximate cause of kusala citta is right attention, yoniso manasikaara. The Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 350) states as to wholesome consciousness that this arises The four favorable conditions are dwelling in a suitable country, the support of good people, right aspirations, past practice of meritorious deeds. Pleasant feeling and indifferent feeling can be kusala as well as akusala. Pleasant feeling can accompany kusala citta as well as akusala citta rooted in attachment and one may easily take feeling that is akusala for feeling that is kusala. Akusala cittas may arise very shortly after kusala cittas. When sati and paññaa arise the different characteristics of kusala and akusala can be realized. There has to be right attention, yoniso manasikaara. Indifferent feeling can accompany citta rooted in attachment and citta rooted in ignorance. Usually indifferent feeling is unnoticed, we are ignorant of it. When there is unwise attention this conditions feelings to be akusala. So long as we do not distinguish the characteristic of naama from the characteristic of ruupa we do not understand feeling as it is. We confuse bodily phenomena and feeling. Through the development of right understanding feelings can be known as naama, different from ruupa. When paññaa develops further there will be less delusion about dhammas, including feeling. Paññaa can understand feeling as it is, as an impersonal element. The Tiika adds that although feelings can be classified according to three jaatis, it can also be classified as eightynine-fold since they accompany all eightynine cittas. Each type of citta is different and thus also its accompanying feeling is different. Even cittas of the same type are different and thus also feeling can never be the same. **** Nina. 40259 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Dear Ken O and Tep, op 27-12-2004 06:23 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > Yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana, interesting > word. Nina - could you help again on this term. thanks. I think it > is good to quote the pali rather than the English term then we are > able to be concise. It helps in the understanding of suttas. N: yathaa: just as, like . bhuuta: what has become, what really is. ñaa.na-dassana: knowledge and vision. Take S.N. II, Nidaanavagga, Upanisa sutta, Transcendental Dependent Arising, Wheel 277/278, Transl and notes by B.B. Concentration conditions knowledge and vision of things as they really are. And this is the development of insight, vipassanaa bhaavana. There are many levels of knowledge and vision of things as they really are. As to the Sutta on the Great Sixfold Sensefield (M.N. 149), this stresses a gradual development: anxieties and torments decrease. At the end arahatship is referred to. But all 37 factors of enlightenment develop together as satipatthana is developed. The Co also indicates that there may be calm at one moment, insight at another moment, but as regards the ariyamagga, they are together, at the same time. They are apair. The sutta ends with vijjaa and vimutti, and this refers to the arahatta magga. As to pariñña, Tep mentions, this is closely connected with the stages of insight. I save this for our thread on vipassana ñaa.na. There are three degrees of pariññaa. Nina. 40260 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Htoo and Ken O, Yes, but the question is still not answered. Htoo, maybe you can ask your Myanmar teachers. You have Mianmar sources that we do not have. Thus, O.K. tadarammana cittas maybe mostly kusala vipaakacittas, but again, that means that these mostly do not experience disagreeable rupas, even when these are the object of a sense-door process. Right or wrong? I had understood that the tadarammana cittas are two more moments of experiencing a rupa in a sense-door process. But even though I am a human being, I do not only experience pleasant objects, I also very often experience unpleasant objects. Nina. op 27-12-2004 03:48 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > There are 10 kusala vipaka cittas that can do the job of tadarammana > cittas. But there is only ONE CITTA of akusala vipaka that can do the > job of tadarammana citta. > > Anyway tadarammana cittas are not akusala or kusala cittas. > Tadarammana cittas are all vipaka cittas. As there are 11 tadarammana > cittas, in terms of frequency most may be kusala vipaka cittas. 40261 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi TG, I see now that we cannot avoid Pali for conciseness. Lets use English and Pali together. It is important to know which English word represents which akusala cetasika. Otherwise we go in circles. op 27-12-2004 00:03 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > > If a streamwinner cannot "view things falsely," then how can they still have > perversions-of-perception regarding permanence, pleasurableness, and self? N: Not regarding permanence, and self. But he can still take for sukha, pleasure, what is dukkha. He still has ignorance, moha, but not micchaa di.t.thi. When the word di.t.thi is used, it sometimes represents right view, in connection with the Path. Sometimes wrong view, in connection with lobha-muula-citta, citta rooted in attachment. I think we have to stress a gradual development towards arahatship. All ariyans realize the four noble Truths at the moment of enlightenment, but there are different levels, and only the arahat realizes them fully, at the highest level, so that all defilements are eradicated. The four noble Truths are deep and difficult to see. Moha, delusion or ignorance arises with each akusala citta. The sotapanna still has akusala cittas, he can laugh, cry, die of a broken heart. He still has ignorance at the moment of akusala citta. But when the akusala citta has fallen away he can realize, with paññaa, its true nature of non-self. When we use the word delusion, we should know that this is the translation of moha, ignorance. Only the arahat has eradicated all levels of ignorance. Moha, di.t.thi and maana are different akusala cetasikas. They should be distinguished, at least to begin with, intellectually. Nina. 40262 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Abhidhamma. Hi Mike. op 26-12-2004 20:47 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > Sorry to have missed this the first time around, this "This is mine. This is > my self. This is what I am" from the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta (Samyutta Nikaya > XXII.59) (and many others, I think), is really valuable--I hadn't sorted > these out in this way before. Really an important distinction--is this > explained per se in the Abhidhamma? N: Book of Analysis. It is now at the bookbinders, completely read to pieces. So, I cannot give the exact location. Also many Co explain it. Nina. 40263 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:45am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 85- Volition/cetanaa (o) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** In the Jåtakas (Birth Stories, Khuddaka Nikåya) we find many examples of people who committed the same deeds again and again in successive lives. For example, Devadatta who tried to kill the Buddha had tried to kill him before, in many former lives when the Buddha was still a Bodhisatta. We read in the ‘Dhammaddhaja Jåtaka’ (220) that the Buddha said: “This is not the first time Devadatta has tried to murder me and has not even frightened me. He did the same before.” We read in the ‘Dúta Jåtaka’ (260) about a monk who was very greedy. Also in former lives he had been greedy. The Buddha said to him: “You were greedy before, monk, as you are now; and in olden days for your greed you had your head cleft with a sword.” The Buddha related a story of one of his past lives: he had such a craving for the dainty food of a king that he took a piece of rice from the king’s dish and this nearly cost him his life. After the Buddha had told this story he explained the four noble Truths and the greedy monk became an anågåmí (the noble person who has attained the third stage of enlightenment). While he listened to the Buddha he must have been mindful of nåma and rúpa and his paññå developed to the degree that all clinging to sensuous objects could be eradicated. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40264 From: m. nease Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi Jon, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jonothan Abbott" To: Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 10:10 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... > As I understand it, paramattha dhammas can indeed be the object of > akusala consciousness, and are regularly so, but in that case they are > not seen as they truly are (and the same applies for that matter when > dhammas are the object of kusala consciousness that is not accompanied > by panna, or of vipaka or kiriya consciousness). > It is for this reason that we live in a world of concepts, meaning that > we take to be real what is not in fact real but is a conceptual idea of > reality. Yes, just right-- > (For the enlightened being, conceptual thinking still occurs, > but it is not mistaken for reality.) Yes, samaasankappa of the eightfold path, then just kiriya-- > To pick up on another thread of yours, this mistaking for real what is > not real is not the same as the mental factor that is 'wrong view'. > Wrong view involves holding to a view about something, but (mis)taking > for real what is not does not necessarily involve any holding to a view; > it necesarily involves only not seeing clearly what is actually what (= > ignorance). Incredible but true (I think) that even the views of stream entrants, once-returners and non-returners are perverted, tainted and fettered... Even our grail, sammaasati, until arahatta...but di.t.thi is something else. Those who mistake the unessential to be essential and the essential to be unessential, dwelling in wrong thoughts, never arrive at the essential. (That's 'me'). Dhammapada 11 mike 40265 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. > Hi TG, > I see now that we cannot avoid Pali for conciseness. Lets use English and > Pali together. Dear Nina: We ought not to mix planes here. We use English and Pali together because the circunstances here got this course of events, and not, for example Pali and Russian(accursed language and accursed people! From the Oder to Kamchatka, death to all russians!) or Pali and Bahasya Indonesia (and its muslins and tsunamis). It is important to know which English word represents which > akusala cetasika. Otherwise we go in circles. One of the merits of South School of Buddhism is the care with detailed classifications. It would be a kind of challenge compose a table of concordances between english words and Kusala and Akusala cetasikas, as a Buddhistic Thesaurus ( with Russian language such task is impossible, because all russians words are akusala cetasika) Mettaya, Ícaro 40266 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fierce Powers ... !!! Venerable Bhante, very impressive texts and good reminders. With respect, Nina. op 27-12-2004 05:17 schreef Bhikkhu Samahita op bhikkhu_samahita@y...: > > > Surprise: > Death carries off the man while distracted > by gathering the flowers of sense-pleasures, > exactly & even so as a great flood carries > away a sleeping village. Dhammapada 47 > > > Off Guard: > > Death sweeps away the man distracted, > not yet had his fill of sensual pleasures, > even as he gathers these flowers. Dhammapada 48 > > > Engaged-Encaged: > > When a man is in love with sons, friends & family, > his mind is passionately absorbed therein. > So distracted, the King of Death carry him off as a > raging wave sweeps away the sleeping village. > > Dhammapada 287 40267 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:sense-door, mind-door. Hi Tep, op 25-12-2004 15:44 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: quotesN: >> The mind-door process is concealed by the sense-door process. >> When the time is ripe for the first stage of insight knowledge, >> it knows nama and rupa through the mind-door. >> Then one knows what a mind-door process exactly is, >> not before that. .... T: I am interested in the interval between the state in which "the mind-door > process is concealed by the sense-door process" and the state "when > the time is ripe for the first stage of insight knowledge, it knows nama > and rupa through the mind-door". You have hinted that "it is only panna > itself that works its way". > What are the supporting conditions for panna so that it can work its way > until the first ray of insight knowledge appears? Is contemplating nama- > rupa as " not mine, not 'I', not my 'self' " both necessary and sufficient? N: That is the end result, not the beginning. Insight knowledge is not satipatthana. Satipatthana is developed any time there is mindfulness and a degree of understanding of whatever nama or rupa appears. It can develop, it can grow. Insight knowledge, even the first stage, is a result, a fruit, of the development of satipatthana. Insight knowledge consists of several moments of clearly realizing the nama and rupa that appear. I know very little about this subject but I heard this from a discussion in Hua Hin, Thailand: A. Sujin explained it this way: whatever one has learnt when a stage of insight arose has to be reviewed again and again, so that a following stage can arise. This shows us how gradual the development of insight is. Pariñña means: full understanding, but there are degrees. There are three pariññas: 1. ñaata pariñña, or full understanding of the known. This is actual from the first stage of tender insight knowledge up to the second stage, direct discernment of nama and rupa as conditioned dhammas. The penetration of the specific characteristics predominates. (such as hardness, visible object, etc.) 2. tiira.na pariñña, or full understanding as investigation. This goes from the third stage of tender insight up to the first principal insight: realization of the arising and falling away of nama and rupa. Here the penetration of the three general characteristics predominates. 3. Pahaana pariñña, full understanding as abandoning. From the first stage of principle insight onwards. Pañña becomes more and more detached, it turns away from conditioned dhammas so that finally nibbaana, the unconditioned dhamma, can be realized. (See Vis. XX, 4). Before we know it we get lost in terms, but all this is not theory, it is practice. It is a gradual development. Sutta: K.S. IV, Ch 3 on the All, § 26, Comprehension. I mentioned this sutta some time ago. The sutta is very short but the Co explains about the three pariññas. Sutta; It is asked what all? The eye, objects, etc. Herein is the clue, the preparation you asked for. Mindfulness and understanding has to be developed of all objects appearing one at a time through the six doors. We have to know the difference between concept and reality, only realities are objects of satipatthana. The khandhas, the elements, the aayatanas. Or in short: dhammas, paramattha dhammas. Doubts may arise: how can I ever reach it. Here we could continue our thread about the hindrance of doubt. Doubt arises until we are sotapannas. Nina. 40268 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi Nina Nina : (Re: Sotapanna) He still has ignorance at the moment of akusala citta. TG: Your last post on this subject is pasted at the end. What I gather from your above statement and your post below is that the only ignorance a Sotapanna has is that of the perversion of pleasure. Is that what you meant? Why would someone laugh or cry unless they had the capacity to see things in terms of self? How could someone die of a broken heart without viewing things falsely? Why would the Buddha and Sariputta stress treachings about impermanence and no-self to noble disciples (streamwinner, once-returner, non-returner)... if they have completely mastered those false views? (See following example...) The following Sutta is delivered by Sariputta... "But friend Sariputta, what are the things that a Bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer should carefully attent to?" "Friend Kotthita, a Bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer should carefully attend to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as empty, as nonself.... When, friend, a Bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer carefully attends thus to these five aggregates subject to clinging, it is possible that he may realize the fruit of once-returning." (Connected Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 970 -- 971) This Sutta repeats this formula for the once-returner and the non-returner as the way to achieve the next higher level. Why would a mind, that has eliminated all possible ignorance in regards to impermanence and no-self, need to be intructed to continue investigating these aspects in order to attain higher levels? My only explaination is that these ways of regarding the aggregates have not been perfected by these noble disciples. TG (BTW, this back and forth has been very useful for me and I want to thank you and Sarah and others for it.) In a message dated 12/27/2004 3:04:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: Hi TG, I see now that we cannot avoid Pali for conciseness. Lets use English and Pali together. It is important to know which English word represents which akusala cetasika. Otherwise we go in circles. op 27-12-2004 00:03 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > > If a streamwinner cannot "view things falsely," then how can they still have > perversions-of-perception regarding permanence, pleasurableness, and self? N: Not regarding permanence, and self. But he can still take for sukha, pleasure, what is dukkha. He still has ignorance, moha, but not micchaa di.t.thi. When the word di.t.thi is used, it sometimes represents right view, in connection with the Path. Sometimes wrong view, in connection with lobha-muula-citta, citta rooted in attachment. I think we have to stress a gradual development towards arahatship. All ariyans realize the four noble Truths at the moment of enlightenment, but there are different levels, and only the arahat realizes them fully, at the highest level, so that all defilements are eradicated. The four noble Truths are deep and difficult to see. Moha, delusion or ignorance arises with each akusala citta. The sotapanna still has akusala cittas, he can laugh, cry, die of a broken heart. He still has ignorance at the moment of akusala citta. But when the akusala citta has fallen away he can realize, with paññaa, its true nature of non-self. When we use the word delusion, we should know that this is the translation of moha, ignorance. Only the arahat has eradicated all levels of ignorance. Moha, di.t.thi and maana are different akusala cetasikas. They should be distinguished, at least to begin with, intellectually. Nina. 40269 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Fierce Powers ... !!! > Venerable Bhante, > very impressive texts and good reminders. > With respect, > Nina. Respectfully butting in, Nina and B.Samahita. Death is only one aspect of impermanence. "Vitae janua Mors" is only one mode of expression,like "Mors janua Vitae" (that´s latin, a language much more respectable than inutile trash, A.k.a.Russian language). The facts: at South Asia people died and muslim properties were damaged... and the Universe as a whole didn´t moved a bit for it. (well, it could continuing to behave at this way even with a russian maffiosi shouting at full power of his well feeded lungs, or shooting his top-line hand gun or paying the entire St.Petesburg Opera´s Chorus to singing a Mujik song to a telescope). Fortunately for all of us Dukkha, Anicca and anatta are well grounded truths, despite the claims fo the usual Russian "capo". Mettaya, Ícaro 40270 From: dacostacharles Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 4:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. TG, I like what you are saying in this post. However, I have to think a little more about your statement that: "... ignorance is the most fundamental delusion upon which all others are based, ..." I can see how you come to this conclusion. However, I have always believed that there is more to Delusion than just ignorance (this comes from when I use to have debates with Mahayana Buddhist -- so I could be wrong). Charles DaCosta a new comer to this group. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > In a message dated 12/26/2004 2:04:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, > sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > S: I’m rather mystified. Unless you’re giving false views here another > connotation to refer to other perversions and not to ditthi, I haven’t > seen anyone else or any sutta or comy supporting your position apart from > James (and as I say, even his position is a little different, which I’ll > respond to later). You’d have to elaborate. > > Hi Sarah > > I'm sure this is the discrepency. I am using "view"as used in English, not > as used in Pali perhaps. I am saying, that a mind that still thinks "mine," > and I am," is not free from "seeing things" in relation to a self- view. I will > call this a "sense-of-self" instead of calling it self view. Is that easier > to swallow? > > Since you brought up Nyanatiloka's Dictionary, let's look at the definition > of Ditthi... > "Ditthi (lit.: 'sight',; dis to see): View, Belief, Speculative Opinion, > Insight. > > Nyanatiloka defines Sakkaya-Ditthi as "Personality Belief." This is the > "belief" that a streamwinner eliminates. That fits with the way I see it just > fine. Is it a view?, yes, if a view is limited to being seen as a "belief." I > have been using "view" in a much broader sense than that. > > Perversions of perception... > > If ignorance is the most fundamental delusion upon which all others are > based, the question becomes -- what is ignorance ignorant of? You correctly were > pointing out ignorance is ignorant of the impermanent, suffering, and selfless > aspects of phenomena. This means ignorance still has the inherent tendency to > see things as self at some level or another. To me this means there is still > a sense-of-self. To overcome sense-of-self is the hardest delusion to > overcome, not the easiest one to overcome. > > If I descrive it in this way, does that more accord with the way you are > seeing it? > > TG 40271 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi Larry, op 26-12-2004 02:53 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: It > seems to have devolved into the question can past or future object be a > paramattha dhamma. I must say I agree with Howard that to say yes sounds > like a Sarvastivada solution which is essentially eternalistic. N: We discussed this subject with A. Sujin once, during a session about not so classifiable objects, navattabbaaramma.na. I asked about this. A dhamma that has fallen away is not a concept. It is past rupa or past nama. But it cannot be object of satipatthana which has only present objects. L: My idea was that each citta in citta process informs the next. N: shall we say: conditions the next, anantara paccaya? L:So the > object of 5-door javana, for example, would be votthapana (determining > consciousness) and the object of a following mind-door adverting would > be the preceding 5-door javana or possibly preceding tadarammana. And we > just conventionally say the object of all this is the original rupa. N: we are speaking now about a sense-door process, and these cittas experience only rupa as you also suggest. It could not be a citta. In a mind-door process arising later on a preceding citta could be the object. It does not matter that they have just fallen away. It is all so fast, for all practical purposes the characteristic of a citta just fallen away can still be the object. L: There is still a problem of past informing present which I don't see how > to resolve, even if we use the "concept" solution. Maybe we could just > say "it's magic". ;-)) N: Fortunately there is no magic. Nina. 40272 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. different individuals Hi Phil, op 24-12-2004 23:04 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > >> N: It depends on the individual. That is why there are three ways > of >> liberation, I do not give details now. And also classifications of > liberated >> individuals, such as body witness, etc. > > When you have a moment, could you teach me (very briefly!) about > the three ways of liberation (is that depending on which of the three > characteristics arises?) N: Three vimokkhas, liberations. Path of Discrimination, p. 265. You are right, Phil, it depends on which characteristic is predominant. When he gives attention as impermanent, the signless liberation (animitta) is dominant; when he gives attention as dukkha, the desireless (appanihita) liberation is dominant; when he gives attention asanattaa, the void liberation is dominant. But further on these are combined differently. Knowledge of contemplation of impermanence can be seen even under these three aspects. Different aspects and angles again! Now the seven individuals: in the Path of Discrimination (p. 254, etc), also in the Abhidhamma, puggala paññatti (human types) and Visuddhimagga XXI, which is summarized in Nyanatiloka dict. p.19 : faith devotee, faith-liberated one, body-witness, twice liberated, Dhamma devotee, vision-possessed, wisdom-liberated. What we can learn: individuals are very different. Some developed samatha even to the arupajhanas, some did not. But they all became noble disciples. There are no rules to be followed. Whatever we do is conditioned by our accumulations, also in former lives. Nina. 40273 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 0:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > The following Sutta is delivered by Sariputta... > > "But friend Sariputta, what are the things that a Bhikkhu who is a > stream-enterer should carefully attent to?" > "Friend Kotthita, a Bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer should carefully attend > to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as a > disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as > disintegrating, as empty, as nonself.... When, friend, a Bhikkhu who is a > stream-enterer carefully attends thus to these five aggregates subject to clinging, > it is possible that he may realize the fruit of once-returning." (Connected > Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 970 -- 971) > > This Sutta repeats this formula for the once-returner and the non- returner as > the way to achieve the next higher level. Why would a mind, that has > eliminated all possible ignorance in regards to impermanence and no-self, need to be > intructed to continue investigating these aspects in order to attain higher > levels? Gosh, I was going to quote this sutta in a post to Sarah! You have stolen my thunder! ;-)) (just kidding). Anyway, I tire of this debate; I may just leave the baton to you. Metta, James 40274 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 0:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Q. different individuals > There are no rules to be followed. Dear Nina, This would be very confortable for the usual Ruski Capo de Tutti Cappi Maffiosi(Oh sorry! Will I try to keep an English/Pali use here) or to the muslim slaver: no rules of course, only the wild will of these criminals! The Russian Maffia will love it, Nina!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 40275 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 0:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. I may just leave the baton to you. You can buy it, James!!!! "Buy the Baton...Buy the Baton... you must buy the baton..." Mettaya, Ícaro 40276 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi, James (and TG) - In a message dated 12/27/04 3:04:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > "But friend Sariputta, what are the things that a Bhikkhu who is a > >stream-enterer should carefully attent to?" > >"Friend Kotthita, a Bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer should > carefully attend > >to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as > suffering, as a > >disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as > alien, as > >disintegrating, as empty, as nonself.... When, friend, a Bhikkhu > who is a > >stream-enterer carefully attends thus to these five aggregates > subject to clinging, > >it is possible that he may realize the fruit of once-returning." > (Connected > >Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 970 -- 971) > > > >This Sutta repeats this formula for the once-returner and the non- > returner as > >the way to achieve the next higher level. Why would a mind, that > has > >eliminated all possible ignorance in regards to impermanence and > no-self, need to be > >intructed to continue investigating these aspects in order to > attain higher > >levels? > > > Gosh, I was going to quote this sutta in a post to Sarah! You have > stolen my thunder! ;-)) (just kidding). Anyway, I tire of this > debate; I may just leave the baton to you. > > Metta, > James > ======================== TG, you questioned "Why would a mind, that has eliminated all possible ignorance in regards to impermanence and no-self, need to be intructed to continue investigating these aspects in order to attain higher levels?" The answer, IMO, is that even a non-retrurner has eliminated all such ignorance, because the *sense* of self, the *taste* of self, remains. Only is an arahant completely free of sense of self in the conventional person and in all dhammas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40277 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi, James & TG - I omitted the important word 'not' in the following! ;-)) It should read "... has NOT eliminated ... ." With metta, Howard > The > answer, IMO, is that even a non-retrurner has eliminated all such ignorance, > > because the *sense* of self, the *taste* of self, remains. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40278 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. In a message dated 12/27/2004 12:23:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: TG, you questioned "Why would a mind, that has eliminated all possible ignorance in regards to impermanence and no-self, need to be intructed to continue investigating these aspects in order to attain higher levels?" The answer, IMO, is that even a non-retrurner has eliminated all such ignorance, because the *sense* of self, the *taste* of self, remains. Only is an arahant completely free of sense of self in the conventional person and in all dhammas. With metta, Howard Hi Howard The question is a "rhetorical" to try to find out how Nina is coming to the conclusion that a streamwinner, once-returner, and non-returner, has no pervervion-of-perception concerning self and permanence. I agree completely and this is what I have been arguing for the last week. I hand the baton to you. LOL TG 40279 From: Raymond Hendrickson Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:09pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Thinking of all friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand I am also thinking of those in S.E. Asia. There are some excellent sources for giving helping on the CNN and MSNBC websites. If others know of groups not mentioned on those web sites, this might be a good place to put the links....Metta...Ray > [Original Message] > From: christine_forsyth > To: > Date: 12/26/2004 12:38:50 AM > Subject: [dsg] Thinking of all friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand > > > > Thinking of all our friends in Sri Lanka, India, Thailand and > elsewhere in S.E. Asia with metta and karuna after hearing of the > earthquakes and resultant Tsunamis. May you and your relatives all > stay safe and well. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 40280 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi, TG - In a message dated 12/27/04 4:19:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > The question is a "rhetorical" to try to find out how Nina is coming to the > conclusion that a streamwinner, once-returner, and non-returner, has no > pervervion-of-perception concerning self and permanence. I agree completely > and this > is what I have been arguing for the last week. I hand the baton to you. > LOL > > TG > ===================== Ah, I see. Well, I agree that until arahanthood there is still perversion of perception. But that isn't quite what is meant by "wrong view", the "wrong view" that is eliminated at stream entry. That "wrong view", as I understand it, is a matter of *belief*. Once one is a stream entrant there is no longer any possibility of *belief* in self or in the efficacy of mere rules and rituals nor is there any sceptical doubt with regard to the Buddha and his Dhamma. What is uprooted then is the possibility of such beliefs - because one has SEEN! But other defilements, including *sense* of self, remain. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40281 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. In a message dated 12/27/2004 2:35:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Ah, I see. Well, I agree that until arahanthood there is still perversion of perception. But that isn't quite what is meant by "wrong view", the "wrong view" that is eliminated at stream entry. That "wrong view", as I understand it, is a matter of *belief*. Once one is a stream entrant there is no longer any possibility of *belief* in self or in the efficacy of mere rules and rituals nor is there any sceptical doubt with regard to the Buddha and his Dhamma. What is uprooted then is the possibility of such beliefs - because one has SEEN! But other defilements, including *sense* of self, remain. With metta, Howard Hi again Howard. That is exactly what I have been arguing for this last week. Nina (and I think Sarah) seem to making the point that a streamwinner has completely, and in all respects, eliminated any kind of sense-of-self of sense-of-permanence. I'm still trying to clarify how this can be. TG 40282 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi, TG - In a message dated 12/27/04 7:10:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > > > Hi again Howard. > > That is exactly what I have been arguing for this last week. Nina (and I > think Sarah) seem to making the point that a streamwinner has completely, > and in > all respects, eliminated any kind of sense-of-self of sense-of-permanence. > I'm still trying to clarify how this can be. > > TG > ================= I'm sure this is not a difference in content but in terminology. I'm certain that Nina and Sarah are aware that the *sense* of self only fully goes with complete enlightenment. The last fetter to go is avijja, which can be understood as the disinclination to realize the tilakkhana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40283 From: Philip Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:42pm Subject: Re: Q. different individuals Hello Nina, and all > >> N: It depends on the individual. That is why there are three ways > > of > >> liberation, I do not give details now. And also classifications of > > liberated > >> individuals, such as body witness, etc. > > > > When you have a moment, could you teach me (very briefly!) about > > the three ways of liberation (is that depending on which of the three > > characteristics arises?) > N: Three vimokkhas, liberations. Path of Discrimination, p. 265. > You are right, Phil, it depends on which characteristic is predominant. When > he gives attention as impermanent, the signless liberation (animitta) is > dominant; when he gives attention as dukkha, the desireless (appanihita) > liberation is dominant; when he gives attention asanattaa, the void > liberation is dominant. > But further on these are combined differently. Knowledge of contemplation of > impermanence can be seen even under these three aspects. Different aspects > and angles again! Phil: All these different aspects and angles offer us different aspects and angles by which to move toward detachment. I feel so grateful for this wealth, whether it is found in the Suttanta, or Abhidhamma, or in the commentaries. Am I right in assuming that once we know in theory about this arising of the characteristics at enlightenment, that it is not necessary to consider which characteristic one is most likely to experience? Well, that's an obvious question - the answer is "yes Phil, you're right. No need to think about that." (I can see myself thinking, "well, I understand impermanence - that's an easy one - I had better concentrate on suffering until spring comes, and then maybe move on to anatta after that.") 2> Now the seven individuals: in the Path of Discrimination (p. 254, etc), also > in the Abhidhamma, puggala paññatti (human types) and Visuddhimagga XXI, > which is summarized in Nyanatiloka dict. p.19 : > faith devotee, faith-liberated one, body-witness, twice liberated, Dhamma > devotee, vision-possessed, wisdom-liberated. > What we can learn: individuals are very different. Some developed samatha > even to the arupajhanas, some did not. But they all became noble disciples. > There are no rules to be followed. Whatever we do is conditioned by our > accumulations, also in former lives. Phil: Again, I assume that for the beginner or "uninstructed worlding" such as myself there is no need to think about the above too much, though it's good to understand in theory. On the other hand, I *might* benefit from considering another way of classifying individuals by tendencies - a simpler way - based on the hetus. I quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentarial note #47 in the Khandasamyutta: "The verb anuseti implies anusaya, the seven underlying tendencies (see SN 4:175) or, more simply, the three underlying teddencies of lust, aversion and ignorance. Spk: If one has an underlying tendency towards form by way of sensual lust, etc., then one is described in terms of that same underlying tendency as "lustful etc." But when that underlying tendency is absent, one is not reckoned thus." Yet again, for the beginner there is such danger in thinking too much about what kind of person one is because it invites wrong view of self as fixed. But there *are* tendencies, and the verb "usually" is used in the translation of one sutta (can't dig it up at the moment) to encourage us to consider what we "usually" think about. Is it possible to know where one's tendencies lie and is this encouraged by the Buddha? Yes. Is it easy to take advantage of knowing where one's tendencies lie in a skillful way? No. More opportunity to cultivate patience here. (Sorry for any redundancy here - I know there has been a long thread related to the tendencies but I haven't had time to follow it.) BTW, what does everyone think about this next bit of the Bhikkhu's commentary?: "Additionally, we might suppose, one is reckoned not only by way of the defilements, but even more prominently by way of the aggregate with which one principally identifies. One who inclines to form is reckoned a "physical" person, one who inclines to feeling a "hedonist", one who inclines to perception "an aesthete" (or fact- gatherer?) -- one who inclines to volition a "man of action" one who inclines to consciousness a thinker etc." Is this commentary just speculation on the Bhikkhu's part or is there any such teaching? I must respectfully say that it sounds a bit dubious. Metta, Phil p.s Thanks for all your great feedback in other threads, Nina. I don't have time to respond to it all now, but it will be gathered and printed out for reflection. I feel so very grateful to be getting so much helpful guidance from you! (And from others, of course.) 40284 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Larry: "My idea was that each citta in citta process informs the next." Nina: "shall we say: conditions the next, anantara paccaya?" Hi Nina, This works for me if we understand that a particular votthapana citta conditions a particular javana citta. Although it is still a mystery how that happens. Information is conveyed from one citta to another and each citta modifies that information. We could say the information is _about_ an object but it makes me nervous to think that two dhammas are in the same place at the same time as subject and object, particularly when there is a 5-door process followed by a mind-door process. Maybe it is more like gossip being passed from one person to another rather than scientific analysis. One problem is what does contact (phassa) contact. Votthapana conditions javana but it doesn't contact it. If they both contact the rupa what is accomplished? They can't cognize the rupa like sense consciousness. In a mind-door process what does the javana contact? Mind-door adverting is gone when it arises. Is contact the sequential arising of adverting and javana in the mind-door? Is the mind-door the base for 5-door process after the initial contact between external rupa and sensitive matter? Maybe contact has to do with cognitively maintaining the same object but accumulating information is more a matter of conditioned arising raher than passing information through contact as initially happens with external object and sensitive matter. These two rupas can arise at the same time, unlike two consciousnesses. Larry 40285 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? Hi Joop, In order to find one time that is applicable to both nama and rupa maybe we have to look for the characteristics of the four primary elements in the four nama khandhas. Earth, Water, Fire, Air Texture, Coherence, Causation, Energy Feeling, Perception, Formation, Consciousness Following the idea that the water element is time, we could say coherence (relatedness) of different events is time. However, perception only perceives similarity. Insight understands difference in similarity. Insight is a factor of causation. So we need both fire and water to make time, similarity and difference. Plus, fire is responsible for there being multiple events in the first place. Those events are events of texture (feeling) and have an aspect of solidity or reality. Energy drives this whole machine and, in some sense, _is_ the machine, as it manifests as the continuity of these processes (sandhaana)*. So, there you have it, time. Time is reality, but only part of reality. The other part is timeless. Larry * See CMA p. 29 for characteristics of consciousness. 40286 From: m. nease Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 6:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections (was: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau) Hi Sarah, Catching up: ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 10:27 PM Subject: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections (was: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau) >...proper attention (yoniso > manasikara) fortunately doesn't depend or not depend on our making any > gaffes. I remember feeling embarrassed when I realised I'd got the Chucks > mixed up, but even at such a time there can be wise attention and > awareness of such embarrassment, conceit and other unwholesome qualities - > none of them 'Me' fortunately;-). Right! >...Surely, when the universals such as phassa and vedana arise with akusala > cittas, they are akusala and their qualities are inherently different from > those arising with sobhana cittas? I don't think so--they are 'known by the company they keep' I think, that is they are designated akusala or sobha.na depending on the various conditions (hetu etc.) and on the other cetasikas that arise with them--unless I'm simply wrong, of course. > In other words, they are of the same > jati as the cittas and other cetasikas they arise with and therefore vary > considerably accordingly. In one context 'jaati' means 'birth' or 'rebirth' and in another, 'kind' or 'sort'. (The jaati of pa.tisandhi e.g. can be kusala (must be for us) but we still experience all 'kinds' or 'sorts' of cittas/cetasikas.) The fact that the jaati is the same (meaning 'kind' or 'sort' in this case) doesn't change the function of the phassa or vedanaa, whether momentarily or over a lifetime--or so it seems to me. > In other words, phassa and vedana can be kusala, > akusala, vipaka or kiriya even though they still have the common > characteristics of contacting or feeling. Don't all 'actually' kusala and akusala kammas occur in javana processes? While attending any of these, it seems to me that vedanaa and phassa always have exactly the same function, to feel and to contact. When attending vipakka, they, like the vipakka, seem to me to be called 'akusala' or 'kusala' only as a designation, like 'akusala vipakka'. In other words, isn't the vipakka actually avyaakata and called kusala or akusala based only on the kamma of which it is the result? In other words, I guess I think of them as essentially neutral agents. If I'm misunderstanding this I'm doing so in some detail and would appreciate the correction. > (In the section on vedana from > 'Cetasikas' there were some examples such as how the pleasant feeling > accompanying cittas rooted in lobha is quite different from the pleasant > feeling accompanying cittas rooted in generosity). I think the experience 'feels' different--but not because sukha vedanaa is itself different, but rather because it is attended by different cetasikas (like lobha 'sticking like meat in a hot pan' e.g.). > Furthermore, I understand the cetasikas to condition each other as well as > the citta they accompany Yes, but in what way? That is, mightn't they be conascent or whatever but without actually changing each other? I DO think of co-arising cetasikas as (at least sometimes) conditioning each other, but not as changing each other in any way. Of course, I may be completely wrong about this... > and anusayas (latent defilement tendencies) to be > carried by the accompanying cetasikas (not just those listed under > anusayas such as greed or conceit), as well as by the cittas. 'Carried'--really! Is this consistent with the Paali texts? (Silly question, probably...) > For example, > when greed accumulates, there is also the tendency to have a certain kind > of pleasant feeling on account of certain objects I can see that pleasant feeling differs in terms of pleasant tastes, smells, thoughts etc., that is that the experience partakes of pleasant feeling together with a particular door, base, object etc.--but it still seems to me that it's the overall experience that differs and not its individual components. > and for sanna and phassa > to mark and contact these objects at the same time, all conditioning each > other by sahajata paccaya I believe. Yes, this is conascence condition isn't it? So as above. > Mike, I'd be very glad for any comments you might add here - it's not a > simple matter at all. No--thanks for helping me to work this out. The fact that my ideas about this seem rather fixed strikes me as ominous. > Also, you mentioned' the correlation between the (akusala) javana process, > akusala kamma and pa.ticcasamuppaada. The second link, sankhara, refers to > abhisankhara or kamma of the degree of kamma patha that can bring results > of the degree of rebirth consciousness. Isn't pa.ticcasamuppaada operant at a kha.nika level? This is another old opinion of mine, that sankhaara and the other links are not once-in-a-lifetime occurrences but occur with every single contact etc., in other words truly countless times every day. If it's a bad one, guess it's time I got over it...some Paali texts would help if this notion does want debunking... > This is the condition for vinnana > or consciousness of course. Of course--but for every dvipa~ncavi~n~naa.na, constantly, no? > But kamma cannot bring its resuilt without > the assistance of many other conditions, particularly decisive support > condition and this of course is the way that accumulated latent tendencies > perpetuate or accumulate in the flow of cittas, including vipaka cittas. This all seems just right. I've been going over the paccaya chapter of STA, they just get more and more interesting. > Have I missed the point? I doubt it--I may have! > There's a lot of great detail in ch 6 of Dispeller, Classification of the > Structure of Conditions. Please let me know if I've missed your points at > all or if anything here seems questionable or wrong! I always value your > comments and opinions of course., so don't retreat into lurker-land!! Thanks Sarah, yes it was the Dispeller that you and Jon sent me ages ago. I'll get it out and try to make more sense of all this. Thanks for all the help. mike 40287 From: m. nease Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: MIke- Wise attention & Infections : -> Hi Azita, ----- Original Message ----- From: "gazita2002" To: Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 10:56 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: MIke- Wise attention & Infections : -> > I relate to this "lurkers' dilemma", so smiled when I read > this post Mike. Glad to've been amusing, at least...! > For me, your posts are pleasing to read and helpful, so I join > with Sarah here and ask you not to lurk for too long. Thanks, as you see my resolution was short-lived (as mine usually are...) > It is hard for me to keep up with all the posts, and when I do > read one that I want to reply to, I often take a while to construct > my comment and by then it seems too late. I know the feeling well, in fact am experiencing it presently... > It is wonderful that we are all different, just imagine if we > were all prolific posters.......my head would surely explode! The effect on your keyboard alone is too dreadful to imagine. Cheers, mike 40288 From: m. nease Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 7:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lurking. Hi Nina, ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 2:40 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lurking. > Hi Mike, > Oh no! Don't lurk!!! > If you flag mails you want to answer you may not come to actually write. You're right, I've proven that many times Nina so here you are and Een Gulukkig Niewjaar Voor Ledereen! mike 40289 From: shakti Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 8:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Sudden Change -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mlnease" wrote:Best wishes to all whose lives have been touched by the earthquakes > and tsunamis. For me this is a stark reminder of how quickly and > uncontrollably change occurs and that each moment is an opportunity > not to be taken for granted. mike Dear Mike and others, living at sea level as I do, and often threatened by cyclones, the thought occurs to me during the cyclone season, that maybe I won't be here when the cyclone has gone. It is a stark reminder as you say, Mike, but if only we could remember this every day bec. destruction and mayhem can strike so suddenly, anytime, anywhere. May those beings affected by this disaster, not have to suffer for long. Patience, courage and good cheerAzita__________________________________________________ Dear Friends in SE Asia, My thoughts and good wishes are with all of you effected by the earthquakes and tsunami. May you and your families be safe and free from danger. This is such a stark reminder of the fragility of life. One never knows what the next moment will bring. With metta, Shakti 40290 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:35pm Subject: Simon and friend :-) Hello James (and Simon), Nice picture in the 'Significant Others' folder James, of you and Simon. :-) What a cutie Simon is! What are his particulars ... breed, age, and where did you get him? What's his personality like? Just asking these on behalf of Rusty you understand. :-) http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 40291 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 0:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, TG - Ah, I see. Well, I agree that until arahanthood there is still > perversion of perception. But that isn't quite what is meant by "wrong view", the > "wrong view" that is eliminated at stream entry. That "wrong view", as I > understand it, is a matter of *belief*. Once one is a stream entrant there is no > longer any possibility of *belief* in self or in the efficacy of mere rules and > rituals nor is there any sceptical doubt with regard to the Buddha and his > Dhamma. What is uprooted then is the possibility of such beliefs - because one has > SEEN! But other defilements, including *sense* of self, remain. > > With metta, > Howard Friend Howard, According to my reading of the suttas, the Buddha would sometimes teach the dhamma in terms of various gods who were thought to move the sun and moon across the sky and gods who made it rain. One could accurately assume that sotapannas were in the audience at those times. What do you think: Did the sotapannas have a *belief* in what the Buddha was saying about those gods? If so, was that belief a `wrong view'? Metta, James 40292 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi all, I am new to this forum. I saw this and felt it was a good chance to get started. My pali sucks and often my dictionaries do too so bare with me if it seems I don't know what you are talking about when pali is used. Larry you said: {... Although it is still a mystery how that happens. Information is conveyed from one citta to another and each citta modifies that information. We could say the information is _about_ an object but it makes me nervous to think that two dhammas are in the same place at the same time as subject and object, particularly when there is a 5-door process followed by a mind-door process. Maybe it is more like gossip being passed from one person to another rather than scientific analysis. } If you believe there are levels of thinking outside of conscious awareness (i.e., unconscious, subconscious, etc. what ever) then you will have a second place where "Information is conveyed from one citta (thought) to another and each citta modifies that information." And, "two dhammas can appear to be in the same place at the same time as subject and object, ..." particularly when there are 6 entry points (the six sense gates). The idea of multiple dhammas being present proves the dhamma (i.e., object) is compounded. The object in the case of a subject and object being present is really the "sentence." And focus can change so that you can also "see" (realize) there is subject and object too. I was taught that "Contact contacts a thought only, and the though is a concoction of the desired object." This is explained by the fact that if there is no representation of an object in the mind, you can't cling to it. In your mind, it will not exist. Charles DaCosta ----- Original Message ----- From: LBIDD@w... <...> Larry: "My idea was that each citta in citta process informs the next." Nina: "shall we say: conditions the next, anantara paccaya?" Hi Nina, This works for me if we understand that a particular votthapana citta conditions a particular javana citta. Although it is still a mystery how that happens. Information is conveyed from one citta to another and each citta modifies that information. We could say the information is _about_ an object but it makes me nervous to think that two dhammas are in the same place at the same time as subject and object, particularly when there is a 5-door process followed by a mind-door process. Maybe it is more like gossip being passed from one person to another rather than scientific analysis. One problem is what does contact (phassa) contact. <...> 40293 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi all, I think TG asked: {Why would a mind, that has eliminated all possible ignorance in regards to impermanence and no-self, need to be instructed to continue investigating these aspects in order to attain higher levels?} Ignorance is not the only problem; things like: laziness, forgetfulness, temptation, lack of mindfulness, etc. will also rob you of fruition. "Seeing" (realizing, understanding) the teachings is only part of the problem. This is pointed to by the fact that, according to the 8-fold path, morality and concentration (self-discipline) are also important, not just wisdom. Charles D ----- Original Message ----- From: buddhatrue To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 9:01 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi TG, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > The following Sutta is delivered by Sariputta... > > "But friend Sariputta, what are the things that a Bhikkhu who is a > stream-enterer should carefully attent to?" > "Friend Kotthita, a Bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer should carefully attend > to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as a > disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as > disintegrating, as empty, as nonself.... When, friend, a Bhikkhu who is a > stream-enterer carefully attends thus to these five aggregates subject to clinging, > it is possible that he may realize the fruit of once-returning." (Connected > Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 970 -- 971) <....> 40294 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:07pm Subject: Certain Confidence ... !!! Friends: The Four Kinds of Faith (Saddha): 1: Faith as Resort: The resort, refuge, recourse & resource here is the actual reality of the perfectly supreme Enlightenment of the Buddha 2531 years ago! 2: Faith as Attainment: Is the quite Noble achievement of eradicating all Sceptical Doubt in the Buddha's awakening, his Dhamma & the Noble Sangha. Emergence of such irreversible & imperturbable conviction is entering the stream to Nibbana. (Sottapatti) 3: Faith as Serenity: Is the tranquil Joy that emerges when thinking on the Buddha, Dhamma & the Noble Sangha... Or when one offers or bows before a Shrine, or when worshipping an worthy Elder Thera. 4: Faith as Trust: Is the Stable Calm one gets after Deciding with firm Determination to place Trust and Confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha, without giving up any criteria of verification by direct personal experience after training! Faith is the first of five Spiritual Abilities! Faith is the first of five Spiritual Powers! Source: The Buddha's Last Days. Commentary on the DN16: The Mahaparinibbana Sutta.The Great Going Beyond: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=134059 Friendship is the Greatest ! Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. 40295 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 0:35am Subject: Re: Simon and friend :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > > Hello James (and Simon), > > Nice picture in the 'Significant Others' folder James, of you and > Simon. :-) What a cutie Simon is! > What are his particulars ... breed, age, and where did you get him? > What's his personality like? Just asking these on behalf of Rusty > you understand. :-) > http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst > > metta and peace, > Christine Friend Christine, ;-)) Thanks for asking about Simon. He is in my shirt pocket right now as I type this! ;-)) I got Simon at a local pet store here in Cairo. He is a Siamese mix I had quite an experience after buying him at a pet store. He almost died because he was too young to be taken from his mother, unbeknownst to me (4 weeks). I had to take him to the vet several times to get fluids in him because his temperature dropped too quickly. Thankfully he is okay now and very playful. I have to keep him next to me all the time to keep him warm. You know, he taught me something recently about the fragility of life. I was very worried about him dying and did my best to keep him alive, and then I read about how earthquakes in Asia, and subsequent tidal waves, killed over 22,000 people so quickly. It0is a really sad situation and I almost want to take some days of silence to grieve for them; and yet I can't feel too sad because MY kitten survived and is alive. There is life and death, life and death, over and over again. Lessons to make one let go just a little bit more…. Metta, James ps. Simon says Hi to Rusty! ;-) 40296 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi Charles, Welcome to DSG - I'm glad to see you've made yourself at home and you're already contributing to different threads. --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > > > Hi all, > > I am new to this forum. I saw this and felt it was a good chance to get > started. My pali sucks and often my dictionaries do too so bare with me > if it seems I don't know what you are talking about when pali is used. ... Do ask for further explanations anytime - you'll be doing everyone a favour. Also you may like to print out the simple Pali glossary in the Files section to have handy. I'm sure you're also familiar with the Nyantiloka dictionary on line which is very handy too for key terms. Also, if you wish to scroll through any of the archives or search anytime, we have the archives in a back-up site here: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ I'll look forward to talking further - I'm a bit rushed these few days and for now all the batons are in other good hands;-). By the way, we'd be glad if you'd share anything else on your background/interest in Dhamma such as where you live. Metta, Sarah ======= 40297 From: Philip Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:11am Subject: Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Jon, Herman and all Jon, you replied to Herman re the value of thinking about matters being dicussed on list. He had said that during the period that he wasn't posting, there was less thinking of these matter. Jon: > On my reading of the teachings, there is no disadvantage in thinking per se, and > particularly in thinking that is kusala; the insight that leads to the eventual breaking > down of that wall depends on kusala thinking of a particular kind for its development > (I'm not of course saying that the thinking and the insight are the same). It's an interesting matter. I do notice that during the days on which I have not been posting, there is less thinking about Dhamma and *possibly* more bare awareness. It is still shallow awareness, but I don't get caught up in concepts to quite the same degree. I found this the other day, from the Devasamyutta (SN I.20) "Being who perceive what can be expressed become established in what can be expressed Not fully understanding what can be expressed they come under the yoke of death." Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentarial notes say this about the above: "What can be expressed are the five aggregates. (snip) When ordinary beings perceive the five aggregates, their perceptions are affected by the ideas of permanence, pleasure and self, elsewhere called "distortions." (vipasalla) These distorted perceptions then provoke the defilements, on account of which beings "become established in what can be expressed." I take this to mean that because of defilements, our thinking about the aggregates can just subtly strengthen our clinging to them if we're not aware of the danger of thinking too much. I think this is why I was so encouraged and calmed-down by hearing that audio clip of K Sujin, and I think this is why she always gets people back to asking themselves about the realities of them moment. It must be frustrating in a sense for beginners to discuss Dhamma with her because we have all our speculative theories that we carry around with us from reading, and want to have them confirmed, but she spares us from that. Nina is also very helpful there. On the other hand, as you remind us here, the Buddha did stress the importance of Dhamma friendhsip and discussion: Jon: >There are > plenty of suttas that talk about hearing the dhamma, considering what has been > heard and gaining a reflective acceptance of what has thus been understood, as part > of the chain of conditions that culminate in enlightenment. > > Now as I understand matters, the thinking you are talking about here, i.e., thinking > about points that have arisen for discussion on the list, is likely to include this very > kind of kusala thinking. We should value it! No need to have as one's aim > withdrawing from this kind of thinking. But we have to remain well aware of the dangers of too much thinking as well. After all, we know the way dosa and lobha lead us to remove our attention from the present object. There are so many times during my busy days that I take shelter in Dhamma thoughts when things are unpleasant - when I feel anxiety, or irritation, or fatigue. Of course it's good that I don't let myself be carried away with the akusala thoughts, but I am aware of a tendency to run away from them into thoughts about the Buddha and his teaching. If I always do that I will not come to see that all feelings and thoughts are annica, dukkha and anatta, and I will not be liberated from them in a more lasting way. More middle way. Having access to the audio of talks with K Sujin will help me a lot with my accumulated tendency to read read read and think think think. Metta, Phil 40298 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:45am Subject: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Andrew L, As I said (off-list), I was really glad to hear from you and to hear of your continued keen interest in the Abhidhamma too. Thank you for allowing me to reply to your letter on list. I hope others also add their comments on any of your good questions too. You have many friends here as I mentioned. …. --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > I know I haven't been active in DSG the past few months.. I wasn't > sure where Abhidharma fit in, especially in the context of the four > foundations of mindfulness. I have been wanting to practise from a > practise guide I have (Swallowing the River Ganges, by Michael > Flicksteni), but it hasn't been so easy, so I've looked at a few > titles from the book's bibliography. The one I've gotten so far is "A > Comprehensive Manual Of Abhidharma" by Bhikku Bodhi. …. S: Many of us refer to this text a lot on DSG…I think I even recommended it to you before when you asked about Abhidhamma texts. It is a translation of a very famous compendium of Abhidhamma (the Abhidhammattha Sangaha), a summary of the main Abhidhamma texts which has been referred to my Theravada communities for centuries. (See B.Bodhi’s intro). B.Bodhi has also compile helpful extra notes based on the commentaries. The four foundations of mindfulness are simply various namas and rupas as classified in this text. The Abhidhamma reading helps one to understand them better. Do ask any questions. …. >It goes through > the different types of consciousness from the perspective of it as a > science, although it does sometimes include examples of how each > consciousness might manifest itself in daily life -- similar to Nina's > works in that respect, but the book describes their nature in a more > precise manner. It does contain information and charts on the seven > stages of purificiation and insight knowledges, but not about the > nature or conditions of insight knowledges as I had hoped. …. S: I think you’ll find it’s all contained there in various sections. For example, ch V111 on Conditions. It’s not simple, I agree. There are various factors and conditions involved, such as natural decisive support condition which explains how wisdom can be accumulated in order for it to become insight knowledge. No self involved. I’d be happy to go through this or any section with you. I’m sure I’d learn a lot. Very precise as you say. …. > Do you think it would be possible to apply my knowledge of the > different types of citta and cetasikas as the third foundation of > mindfulness, which Ven. U Silananda, in his book, "The Four > Foundations of Mindfulness" states (he writes very briefly for this > stage and says knowledge of abhidharma is necssary). And then go on > with contemplation of body, four elements, and mindfulness of > feelings, and dhammas. …. S: I think it helps a lot to learn about all kinds of citta, cetasikas and rupas too, but one can read about them in any order. The most important thing is to clearly understand the distinction between namas (cittas and cetasikas) and rupas so that there isn’t any confusion or idea of self mixed up in them. We don’t need to think of an order of application or of applying anything. Let it happen naturally, otherwise the strong will and wish will be an impediment to awareness in itself. …. >If not, this book probably contains enough > that I could put together a better understanding in combination with > other materials I have than I could have with the works alone. > > Tell me what you think. … S: I agree with you. I think this text contains everything we need to know IF we read it wisely and don’t try to memorise lists or experience particular states we’re reading about. As I mentioned, the charts were done by U Silananda, so you may find these helpful as well, though I’m not really a chart person myself. Having said that, I’m looking as I write at a helpful section on the 3 Rounds in ch V111, #8 with a useful little chart: “The three rounds exhibit the cyclic pattern of existence in samsara. The most fundamental round is the round of defilements. Blinded by ignorance and driven by craving, a person engages in various unwholesome and mundane wholesome activities. Thus the round of defilements gives rise to the round of kamma. When this kamma matures it ripens in the resultants, and thus the round of kamma gives rise to the round of resultants,. In response to these resultants – the pleasant and painful fruits of his own actions – the person still immersed in ignorance is overcome by craving to enjoy more pleasant experiences, clings to those he already has, and tries to avoid the painful ones. Thus the round of resultants generates another round of defilements. In this way the three-fold round turns incessantly until the ignorance at its base is removed by the wisdom of insight and the supramundane paths.” ***** You’ll ask me how such wisdom of insight arises and it is by discussing, considering and being aware of dhammas (realities) as they appear now in daily life without any special selection or choosing. Understanding these dhammas with detachment from whatever is being experienced is the way that we’ll be less blinded by ignorance as I see it. Let me know how this sounds and if there are any parts of the book you’ve been looking at. I’m very interested to hear your comments and I know everyone will be very glad to hear from you again, Andrew. Just take your time to settle back. …. > Thanks, > A.L. … Metta, Sarah ======= 40299 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi again Andrew. --- "Andrew C. Levin" wrote: > > > Sarah, > > This was not the only reason, my inability to see where Abhidharma fit > in. It did seem like a different path though, one that I couldn't quite > get enough of a feel for to be certain it was the one for me, but after > reading the Introduction and first chapter of ACM I can get an idea of > how valuable it may be. .... S: I think the Abhidhamma is very, very useful (indispensible imho), but only if one sees it referring to the present experiences in life. You mentioned you've had a pretty tough time for the last couple of months or so and I was very sorry to hear this. But even at such times, there are still only cittas,cetasikas and rupas and it helps a lot to realize this. No Andrew at all;-). I'm so glad that things are looking better now.So much depends on our mental attitude don't you think? If we're lost or fixated in a story about what is seen or heard, for example, there is no awareness at all of any of those namas or rupas (mental or physical realities) appearing. So our goal is not to find another reality or truth, but to understand the ones being experienced right now. Slowly, slowly. As I said, I'm very glad to hear from you in good form and I know Nina and everyone else will be so glad too. (Jon sends his warm regards).I know there will be ups and downs, but please let us all support each other with the Dhamma here. It is the only long term solution. Thank you again for writing and letting me share some of your letter with your good friends on DSG. Metta, Sarah ======= 40300 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi, James - In a message dated 12/28/04 3:17:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Friend Howard, > > According to my reading of the suttas, the Buddha would sometimes > teach the dhamma in terms of various gods who were thought to move > the sun and moon across the sky and gods who made it rain. One > could accurately assume that sotapannas were in the audience at > those times. What do you think: Did the sotapannas have a *belief* > in what the Buddha was saying about those gods? If so, was that > belief a `wrong view'? > > Metta, > James > ========================= I haven't any assurance as to what people at that time actually believed. There are plenty of people who go to churches, synagogues, and temples today who read about and even pray to a creator god who bestows good or bad fortune. I'm not sure how many of them really *believe* in such a being. In any case, the wrong views that a stream entrant is disabused of are rather specific: existence of self, undependability of the tiratana, and dependability of rite & ritual as a means of salvation. On the other hand, I have little doubt that most of the populace believed the Mount Sumeru cosmology extant at the time. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40301 From: Date: Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi, Andrew - I'm just writing to add my words of greeting to Sarah's below. I'm really happy to have you back on DSG, and I'm pleased that all goes well with you. With regard to Abhidhamma, I'm not much for all the detail, I question its origins, and I don't "buy" everything I come across in it ;-)), but I must say, and I really emphasize this, that its overall perspective has been very useful to me, and I am a better Buddhist for having been exposed to it. With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/28/04 5:02:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Hi again Andrew. > > --- "Andrew C. Levin" wrote: > > > > > >Sarah, > > > >This was not the only reason, my inability to see where Abhidharma fit > >in. It did seem like a different path though, one that I couldn't quite > >get enough of a feel for to be certain it was the one for me, but after > >reading the Introduction and first chapter of ACM I can get an idea of > >how valuable it may be. > .... > S: I think the Abhidhamma is very, very useful (indispensible imho), but > only if one sees it referring to the present experiences in life. You > mentioned you've had a pretty tough time for the last couple of months or > so and I was very sorry to hear this. But even at such times, there are > still only cittas,cetasikas and rupas and it helps a lot to realize this. > No Andrew at all;-). > > I'm so glad that things are looking better now.So much depends on our > mental attitude don't you think? If we're lost or fixated in a story about > what is seen or heard, for example, there is no awareness at all of any of > those namas or rupas (mental or physical realities) appearing. > > So our goal is not to find another reality or truth, but to understand the > ones being experienced right now. Slowly, slowly. > > As I said, I'm very glad to hear from you in good form and I know Nina and > everyone else will be so glad too. (Jon sends his warm regards).I know > there will be ups and downs, but please let us all support each other with > the Dhamma here. It is the only long term solution. > > Thank you again for writing and letting me share some of your letter with > your good friends on DSG. > > Metta, > > Sarah /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40302 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:20am Subject: Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Friend Howard, Howard: In any case, the wrong views that a stream entrant is disabused of are rather specific: existence of self, undependability of the tiratana, and dependability of rite & ritual as a means of salvation. James: I agree with you here. My argument has been with those who use the commentaries to state that ALL wrong views are eliminated by the sotapanna. That is not what the Buddha stated and no one has produced a sutta quote yet. Now, if the sotapanna in the Buddha's time had the view that the sun and moon were moved by gods in the heavens, that was a wrong view, belief, ditthi, or whatever you want to call it (which I don't believe the Buddha had because he was omniscient; but he didn't mind using these beliefs if they were effective teaching tools…after all, there were many things he didn't teach, gravity and solar systems being one of them.). Metta, James 40303 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? Time is reality, but only part of reality. The other > part is timeless. Hi Larry! Your definition of time clashes with Visudhimagga´s, Chp.XIV n.71 and Chp.XVII, n.3 (BPS Pariyatti edition). Mettaya, Ícaro 40304 From: jwromeijn Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > > Time is reality, but only part of reality. The other > > part is timeless. > > > Hi Larry! > Your definition of time clashes with Visudhimagga´s, Chp.XIV n.71 > and Chp.XVII, n.3 (BPS Pariyatti edition). > > Mettaya, Ícaro Hallo Icaro Your message is not clear: a. Perhaps it's not to difficult for you to give an abstract of the passages you're thinking of b. Why do they clah ? c. And if they clash with the definition of Larry, who is right: Larry or Buddhaghosa ? Are you an expert in the philosophy of time ? Metta Joop 40305 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:27am Subject: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L, and Howard Dear Andrew L, Sarah, Nina, Mike, Robert K, Howard and all How are you? As you are all educated westerners, I am sure you would have at least a nodding understanding of science. Every field of science has the same behaviors, namely, study of basic units of reality relevant to that filed and how we can manipulate them through legitimate methods, which usually involve the optimal use of conditions for, and relations between, those realitiy units. If new comers to Gotama's Taming System (Saasanaa), commonly known as Theravada Buddhism, are able to keep in mind the above behaviors of sciences, they would have more appreciation of the Buddha's teachings in general and the Third Pitaka in particular, namely, Abhidhamma Pitaka. Every teaching segment of the Buddha deals with reality units and how to manipulate them. If any of you found them to be otherwise, please report that particular segment to me. I will discuss the matter further to your satisfaction. And any teaching segment of the Buddha that highlights reality units, their conditions and relations is abhidhamma in disguise, and can be shown to support the Third Pitaka. To my knowledge, the most essential teachings of the Buddha found in Suttam Pitaka deal with reality units and different approaches to their manipulation. Thus, any Suttam can be shown to be abhidhamma in disguise. Now, Howard, the origin of Abhidhamma Pitaka is Gotama the Buddha as the Three Pitakas are coherent system of teachings involving the reality units, their conditions and relations in various ways of presentation for the sole purpose of taming and transforming our minds for eventual awakening. Andrew L, as any Suttam you read is abhidhamma in another format, direct study of abhidhamma texts proper will get you to unusual heights of insight. So keep up the good work! :-) With regards Suan www.bodhiology.org -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: Hi Andrew L, As I said (off-list), I was really glad to hear from you and to hear of your continued keen interest in the Abhidhamma too. Thank you for allowing me to reply to your letter on list. I hope others also add their comments on any of your good questions too. You have many friends here as I mentioned. …. --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > Hi Sarah, > > I know I haven't been active in DSG the past few months.. I wasn't > sure where Abhidharma fit in, especially in the context of the four > foundations of mindfulness. I have been wanting to practise from a > practise guide I have (Swallowing the River Ganges, by Michael > Flicksteni), but it hasn't been so easy, so I've looked at a few > titles from the book's bibliography. The one I've gotten so far is "A > Comprehensive Manual Of Abhidharma" by Bhikku Bodhi. …. S: Many of us refer to this text a lot on DSG…I think I even recommended it to you before when you asked about Abhidhamma texts. It is a translation of a very famous compendium of Abhidhamma (the Abhidhammattha Sangaha), a summary of the main Abhidhamma texts which has been referred to my Theravada communities for centuries. (See B.Bodhi's intro). B.Bodhi has also compile helpful extra notes based on the commentaries. > Thanks, > A.L. … Metta, Sarah ======= 40306 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? > > Your message is not clear: > a. Perhaps it's not to difficult for you to give an abstract of the > passages you're thinking of > b. Why do they clah ? I will try to clarify it, pal. At Visuddhimagga, chapters VII, XIV and XVII, Buddhaghosa stated clearly that time is a mode of extension, somewhat similar to space, bounded at its extremes by impermanent events. Our good Larry matches time with water categories, for example, and it has a consequence: you get time as a category limited, with time and "no- time", as water bounded by air or solid matter. Time is real, space is real and their borders ( events) take us not to a "no-time" domain, but to another time or space segment. At my readings of Buddhaghosa´s Visuddhimagga, mainly at BPS Pariyatti notes, it had seemed to me perfectly clear. > c. And if they clash with the definition of Larry, who is right: > Larry or Buddhaghosa ? If we are discussing Buddhaghosa´s text, Buddhaghosa is the rule. But if Larry has some "Critique" about it, grounded on scientific propositions, that would be interesting comparing it out with Buddhaghosa´s work, that´s very clever in this questions. > > Are you an expert in the philosophy of time ? Ah...don´t. I am only a layman on these matters... Mettaya, Ícaro 40307 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: lurking. Hi Mike, thanks for delurking and good wishes. The same to you! May it be a year full of Dhamma. How do you know dutch?? Nina. op 28-12-2004 04:17 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > > You're right, I've proven that many times Nina so here you are and > > Een Gulukkig Niewjaar Voor Ledereen! 40308 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi TG, op 27-12-2004 19:58 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: (BTW, this back and forth has been very useful for me and I want to > thank you and Sarah and others for it.) N: I also find it useful and inspiring. You have excellent points, well worth going into these more deeply. We may talk about the idfference between wrong view, ditthi and ignorance, but only when ditthi arises and there can be awareness of it doubts can be cured. > Nina : (Re: Sotapanna) He still has ignorance at the moment of akusala > citta. > > TG: Your last post on this subject is pasted at the end. What I gather > from your above statement and your post below is that the only ignorance a > Sotapanna has is that of the perversion of pleasure. Is that what you meant? N: No, more than that. He still has all three roots, but they do not motivate bad deeds. We should remember that there are many degrees and many kinds of ignorance. At the moment of akusala citta, suppose it is citta rooted in averison, we do not see the disadvantage of aversion, dosa. That is ignorance or delusion, in Pali avijjaa or moha. As to the perversions, they are present whenever there is akusala citta. But for the sotapanna, there are no longer the akusala cittas rooted in lobha which are accompanied by ditthi, wrong view. Thus, he has only four types of lobha-mula-cittas out of the eight types. Here you see that it is useful to classify cittas. It seems that we are thinking of numbers, but they pertain to realities, dhammas. They help us not to have confusion about defilements. TG: Why would someone laugh or cry unless they had the capacity to see things in > terms of self? How could someone die of a broken heart without viewing things > falsely? N: This is a fundamental issue, touching on the way we practise. Yes, even a sakadagami, once returner, died of a broken heart. (Rob K gave this example). All the stages of insight knowledge have to be developed so that one can reach enlightenment and become a sotapanna. The first three stages are tender insight, and then after that there are the stages of principal insight. The latter are called vipassana as power, balava vipassana. This means: awareness and understanding can arise no matter in what circumstances. Nothing distracts or disturbs, even when laughing and having fun, or when crying bitterly. For us now this is difficult, but the sotapanna has learnt. No matter what appears, be it kusala or akusala, be it pleasant or most unpleasant: all that appears is only dhamma, a reality. It is a dhamma appearing through one of the six doors. He knows: dhamma has no possessor, it arises already because of conditions, it is anatta. We have to learn, we still think of a self who is a controller. My lobha, my dosa. The sotapanna leads his life in a natural way, outwardly we cannot see whether someone is a sotapanna. This teaches us that satipatthana is to be developed naturally, no matter we laugh or cry, no matter we are angry or attached. See satipatthana sutta under citta: citta with attachment (sa-raaga citta), etc. This is classified under the objects of mindfulness. There are nama and rupa. Akusala citta is real, feeling is real, and when there is motion in the face or body, it can be known that through the bodysense hardness or motion may appear. The elements of earth or wind. TG: Why would the Buddha and Sariputta stress treachings about impermanence and > no-self to noble disciples (streamwinner, once-returner, non-returner)... if > they have completely mastered those false views? N: Also ariyans like to listen to the Dhamma, even arahats did, it is their nature. It is the truth, one can listen with appreciation. The cittas of different people who listen are different: people who are non-ariyans and ariyans listened. TG: The following Sutta is delivered by Sariputta... N: I love this sutta. K.S. III, Last Fifty, II, § 122) I included it in my ! > "But friend Sariputta, what are the things that a Bhikkhu who is a > stream-enterer should carefully attend to?" > "Friend Kotthita, a Bhikkhu who is a stream-enterer should carefully attend > to these five aggregates subject to clinging as impermanent, as suffering, as > a > disease, as a tumour, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as > disintegrating, as empty, as nonself.... When, friend, a Bhikkhu who is a > stream-enterer carefully attends thus to these five aggregates subject to > clinging, > it is possible that he may realize the fruit of once-returning." (Connected > Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 970 -- 971) T.G. This Sutta repeats this formula for the once-returner and the non-returner as > the way to achieve the next higher level. Why would a mind, that has > eliminated all possible ignorance in regards to impermanence and no-self, need > to be instructed to continue investigating these aspects in order to attain higher > levels? > My only explaination is that these ways of regarding the aggregates have not > been perfected by these noble disciples. N: Yes, they have to continue being aware of the five khandhas, that is, all nama and rupa appearing through the six doors. Conditioned dhammas, that are impermanent, non-self, and misery, not a pleasure. Ariyans who are not arahats still have clinging and ignorance, but they have realized impermanence and the truth of non-self. When impermanence and non-self are mentioned concerning the five khandhas, it does not imply that they do not know this. They are just properties of the five khandhas, that is all. But see, added are the words, a tumor, a dart, misery, etc. N: Now see the end: (PTS transl.) What else can the arahat do? He has eradicated defilements, but he can contemplate Dhamma. Dhamma is Dhamma, it is the truth. Realities arise and fall away, they are impermanent, no matter a Tathaagatha arises in the world or not. No matter one realizes it or not. Also arahats pay respect to the truth, to Dhamma. Like the Buddha after his enlightenment. He said, I have no teacher to whom I shall pay respect. I pay respect to the Dhamma. The khandhas, nama and rupa appearing now, do not change their nature of impermanence and anatta, but pañña that develops sees the truth of nama and rupa more clearly. It is pañña that eradicates defilements. We can be reminded that the objects of awareness are just what appears now. Understanding of nama and rupa can develop until arahatship is attained. Nina. 40309 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Howard Hi Howard, I would like to add something. op 28-12-2004 01:36 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > The last fetter to go is avijja, which can be > understood as the disinclination to realize the tilakkhana. N: You rightly said that avijja is eradicated last, but I would not say, disinclination to realize the tilakkhana. Also the sotapanna has realized nama and rupa as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. But I would rather say: there are different degrees of realizing the truth. Pañña develops on and on and as it becomes more accomplished, it is able to eradicate latent tendencies, until all ignorance is completely gone. H: even a non-retrurner has eliminated all such ignorance, because the *sense* of self, the *taste* of self, remains. Only is an arahant completely free of sense of self in the conventional person and in all dhammas. N: Yes, this sense of self is conceit, maana. A cetasika different from ditthi. We can think of the clean cloth returned from the washerman, Khemaka sutta. No smell left. People will have no confusion if it is kept in mind that we can cling to an idea of self with wrong view, with attachment that is not connected with wrong view and with conceit. Wrong view: includes eternalism and annihilation view. The twenty kinds of personality belief. Clinging without wrong view: I like the khandhas that are arising and falling away. The sotapanna knows that there is no person, only impermanent khandhas, but because of accumulated clinging he can still be attached to them. Conceit: the khandhas here are better than those over there. Book of Analysis, second book of the abh, p. 504: ...one gets the wish ,,,, the wrong view ...the conceit ... There are these obsessions, or or . .. These three ways of clinging are illustrated with examples. A person thinks I am a ruler, a Brahmin, and he can think with these three papañcas. Nina. Nina. 40310 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 2:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Howard Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/28/04 9:59:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > N: You rightly said that avijja is eradicated last, but I would not say, > disinclination to realize the tilakkhana. Also the sotapanna has realized > nama and rupa as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. But I would rather say: > there are different degrees of realizing the truth. Pañña develops on and on > and as it becomes more accomplished, it is able to eradicate latent > tendencies, until all ignorance is completely gone. > ====================== Yes, I understand. When I wrote "to realize", I meant something far deeper than just "to understand as true". By 'realization' I mean an understanding that is in the bones - in the very marrow, so that not even a whiff of questioning remains, not even the barest inclination. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40311 From: Andrew Levin Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:05am Subject: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > > As I said (off-list), I was really glad to hear from you and to hear of > your continued keen interest in the Abhidhamma too. Thank you for allowing > me to reply to your letter on list. I hope others also add their comments > on any of your good questions too. You have many friends here as I > mentioned. > …. OK. Hopefully this will serve to get us all more knowledgeable about the Buddha's teachings so that we can practise correctly and acheive further realization. > --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > > > Hi Sarah, > > > > I know I haven't been active in DSG the past few months.. I wasn't > > sure where Abhidharma fit in, especially in the context of the four > > foundations of mindfulness. I have been wanting to practise from a > > practise guide I have (Swallowing the River Ganges, by Michael > > Flicksteni), but it hasn't been so easy, so I've looked at a few > > titles from the book's bibliography. The one I've gotten so far is "A > > Comprehensive Manual Of Abhidharma" by Bhikku Bodhi. > …. > S: Many of us refer to this text a lot on DSG…I think I even recommended > it to you before when you asked about Abhidhamma texts. It is a > translation of a very famous compendium of Abhidhamma (the Abhidhammattha > Sangaha), a summary of the main Abhidhamma texts which has been referred > to my Theravada communities for centuries. (See B.Bodhi's intro). B.Bodhi > has also compile helpful extra notes based on the commentaries. > > The four foundations of mindfulness are simply various namas and rupas as > classified in this text. The Abhidhamma reading helps one to understand > them better. Do ask any questions. > …. Well, I can understand that the Abhidharma will go into details about the nature of material form, the four elements (I have not studied this far yet but I can glean this from the introduction), the different types of consciousness and accompanying feelings and their concommitants, but it seems to me, even though we may be understanding different namas and rupas, that since the Buddha only gave assurance of attainment to one who practises the four foundations of mindfulness for such and such a period of time (7 years down to 7 days), one must practise in accordance with the sutta's instructions, that is, to know you have a pleasant feeling when you have a pleasant feeling, to know you have a painful feeling when one exists, and to know neutral feelings, we have to be mindful of *all* nama and rupa eventually, or all rupas under one classification for a period of time, and then more namas or rupas (for instance, one could practise contemplation on the four elements to eliminate the concept of a living being, then go on to be mindful of feelings either at the same time or separately), so we (or at least I am) are looking at a future of intense practise. Personally, I see my practise moving into the streets and being 'mindful in the present moment' as Joe Goldstein has termed it, along with some formal meditation sessions at home to augment my practise. I may take up a lot of exercises from a practise guide I have (Matthew Flickstein's "Swallowing the River Ganges") which goes through the seven stages of purification using exercises from all the four foundations of mindfulness, and the insight knowledges (see also Ven. Matara Sri Nanarama's "The Seven Stages of Purification and the Insight Knowledges), as well as exercises designed to illuminate the validity of truths expressed in the Noble Eightfold Path. It is this structure that seems to me to be solid, that is, practising continually, as presecribed in the sutta, and with a practise guide that can affirm your progress along each step (the insight knowledges and some additional analyzation-knowledges Flickstein adds under the heading of 'Insight Knowledges'), really has me believing that it is possible to walk a path knowing with a reasonable degree of certainty that one is definitely making progress towards the end goal, enlightenmenet. Some of you may take it to be one nama or rupa at a time, but I see the material in the chapter on compendium of consciousness to be known as it appears in reality, as part of my practise, specifically related to the section of the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta regarding contemplation on consciousness. > >It goes through > > the different types of consciousness from the perspective of it as a > > science, although it does sometimes include examples of how each > > consciousness might manifest itself in daily life -- similar to Nina's > > works in that respect, but the book describes their nature in a more > > precise manner. It does contain information and charts on the seven > > stages of purificiation and insight knowledges, but not about the > > nature or conditions of insight knowledges as I had hoped. > …. > S: I think you'll find it's all contained there in various sections. For > example, ch V111 on Conditions. It's not simple, I agree. There are > various factors and conditions involved, such as natural decisive support > condition which explains how wisdom can be accumulated in order for it to > become insight knowledge. No self involved. Purification of view, the first stage of purification, looks to me like it is geared towards eliminating wrong view of self, but the same psych-physical organism can create the causes and conditions for insight knowledges to arise based on the forces of the universe. EG, I was walking along the streets one day, and I felt my mind-stream could flow down into the sewer, so I immediately remembered a suggestion by the Buddha to his monks that on guarding the sense doors, one can go to heaven, or by neglecting to guard the sense doors, one can go to hell, so I began guarding my sense doors. Similarly, there are certain factors in my life that are going to drive me to practise different exercises from this book with the insight-knowledges acting as landmark to show me where I am. I will value a greater understanding of all the namas and rupas involved in the process, including the nature of all four foundations of mindfulness, and the insight knowledges (especially how these two are related to each other - Flickstein has taken results from his experience with meditation students over the years to combine the two, but I would feel funny practising mindfulness of the body in the body (especially breathing) for a long time and not knowing what to expect in terms of insight knowledges or the wisdom that will liberate me, but it seems to me that we have to practise to a higher degree than a nama here and a rupa there if we want to acheive enlightenment. But then again, I havent studied very far in Bhikku Bodhi's "ACM" of Abhidhamma. This has been my general view for a long time, but I think I have a greater understanding of how knowledge of the Abhidhamma could help me along. > I'd be happy to go through this or any section with you. I'm sure I'd > learn a lot. Very precise as you say. > …. > > Do you think it would be possible to apply my knowledge of the > > different types of citta and cetasikas as the third foundation of > > mindfulness, which Ven. U Silananda, in his book, "The Four > > Foundations of Mindfulness" states (he writes very briefly for this > > stage and says knowledge of abhidharma is necssary). And then go on > > with contemplation of body, four elements, and mindfulness of > > feelings, and dhammas. > …. > S: I think it helps a lot to learn about all kinds of citta, cetasikas and > rupas too, but one can read about them in any order. The most important > thing is to clearly understand the distinction between namas (cittas and > cetasikas) and rupas so that there isn't any confusion or idea of self > mixed up in them. We don't need to think of an order of application or of > applying anything. Let it happen naturally, otherwise the strong will and > wish will be an impediment to awareness in itself. > …. > >If not, this book probably contains enough > > that I could put together a better understanding in combination with > > other materials I have than I could have with the works alone. > > > > Tell me what you think. > … > S: I agree with you. I think this text contains everything we need to know > IF we read it wisely and don't try to memorise lists or experience > particular states we're reading about. > > As I mentioned, the charts were done by U Silananda, so you may find these > helpful as well, though I'm not really a chart person myself. > > Having said that, I'm looking as I write at a helpful section on the 3 > Rounds in ch V111, #8 with a useful little chart: > > "The three rounds exhibit the cyclic pattern of existence in samsara. The > most fundamental round is the round of defilements. Blinded by ignorance > and driven by craving, a person engages in various unwholesome and mundane > wholesome activities. Thus the round of defilements gives rise to the > round of kamma. > > When this kamma matures it ripens in the resultants, and thus the round > of kamma gives rise to the round of resultants,. In response to these > resultants – the pleasant and painful fruits of his own actions – the > person still immersed in ignorance is overcome by craving to enjoy more > pleasant experiences, clings to those he already has, and tries to avoid > the painful ones. > > Thus the round of resultants generates another round of defilements. In > this way the three-fold round turns incessantly until the ignorance at its > base is removed by the wisdom of insight and the supramundane paths." > ***** > You'll ask me how such wisdom of insight arises and it is by discussing, > considering and being aware of dhammas (realities) as they appear now in > daily life without any special selection or choosing. Understanding these > dhammas with detachment from whatever is being experienced is the way that > we'll be less blinded by ignorance as I see it. > There is a verse in Dhammapada about the nature of ignorance, and even telling you to 'free yourself from it.' Bhikku Bodhi in his introduction to Majjhima Nikaya even states full penetration of the four noble truths (contemplation of dhammas in dhammas) can break the cycle of dependent origination, that is, through ending ignorance. So I think there can be different approaches and it would be good to reconcile them over time, with proper understanding, but this is how my understanding of practise is right now, even if many in the group do not see it the same way. peace, al > Let me know how this sounds and if there are any parts of the book you've > been looking at. I'm very interested to hear your comments and I know > everyone will be very glad to hear from you again, Andrew. Just take your > time to settle back. > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 40312 From: Andrew Levin Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] abhidhamma - Andrew L --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi again Andrew. > > --- "Andrew C. Levin" wrote: > > > > > > Sarah, > > > > This was not the only reason, my inability to see where Abhidharma fit > > in. It did seem like a different path though, one that I couldn't quite > > get enough of a feel for to be certain it was the one for me, but after > > reading the Introduction and first chapter of ACM I can get an idea of > > how valuable it may be. > .... > S: I think the Abhidhamma is very, very useful (indispensible imho), but > only if one sees it referring to the present experiences in life. You > mentioned you've had a pretty tough time for the last couple of months or > so and I was very sorry to hear this. But even at such times, there are > still only cittas,cetasikas and rupas and it helps a lot to realize this. > No Andrew at all;-). Yes this sounds similar to Ayya Khema's advice in "Being Nobody, Going Nowhere" about how we try to escape from the three characteristics of reality, or wriggle out of them, but the only way out is to accept, understand, and become them, and that when we are aware we are only energy particles and the four elements, who is there to have a problem? If no one is there to have a problem, there is no problem. So I practise on the bed in the waiting room before I got a room in the hospital. May I continue to practise like this with success. > > I'm so glad that things are looking better now.So much depends on our > mental attitude don't you think? If we're lost or fixated in a story about > what is seen or heard, for example, there is no awareness at all of any of > those namas or rupas (mental or physical realities) appearing. > > So our goal is not to find another reality or truth, but to understand the > ones being experienced right now. Slowly, slowly. > Our goal is to extinguish our defilements and attain the supramundane paths, no? Is your goal of experiencing namas and rupas one way at a time aimed towards this same goal? If so, maybe we can explore the territory between your approach and mind. > As I said, I'm very glad to hear from you in good form and I know Nina and > everyone else will be so glad too. (Jon sends his warm regards).I know > there will be ups and downs, but please let us all support each other with > the Dhamma here. It is the only long term solution. > > Thank you again for writing and letting me share some of your letter with > your good friends on DSG. > Glad to be back, Sarah. I still don't feel quite at home with all this yet, this is why I have gotten a practise guide and now that I have ACM my interest level has risen up and given me a line on which I can begin my study and then take it through all the other material from the Tipitaka I have and that is available to me and try to understand how my practise will lead to enlightenment eventually. peace, a.l. 40313 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L, and Howard Hi, Suan - In a message dated 12/28/04 10:49:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > > To my knowledge, the most essential teachings of the Buddha found in > Suttam Pitaka deal with reality units and different approaches to > their manipulation. Thus, any Suttam can be shown to be abhidhamma > in disguise. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I consider this to be a cart-before-the-horse formulation, Suan. I see the Abhidhamma as a codification of the teachings in the suttas. ------------------------------------- > > Now, Howard, the origin of Abhidhamma Pitaka is Gotama the Buddha as > the Three Pitakas are coherent system of teachings involving the > reality units, their conditions and relations in various ways of > presentation for the sole purpose of taming and transforming our > minds for eventual awakening. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I certainly agree that Abhidhamma was created with the teachings of the Buddha as basis. If that is what you mean, then I agree. ========================= With metta, and saddha in the Tiratana, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40314 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L, and Howard Dear Suan and Andrew L, Suan, thank you for your words of encouragement to all of us. The more we read suttas, the more we see the Abhidhamma in the sutta. A great help for the development of understanding now. Andrew, welcome back. I am so glad to see you here again, looking forward to your input, Nina. op 28-12-2004 15:27 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > any Suttam can be shown to be abhidhamma > in disguise. 40315 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Simon and friend :-) Hi James, You expressed that very well. I like your photo very much. You did a good work to look after this kitten. Nina. op 28-12-2004 09:35 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > There is life and death, life and > death, over and over again. Lessons to make one let go just a > little bit more…. 40316 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] contact Hi Larry, op 28-12-2004 02:50 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Larry: "My idea was that each citta in citta process informs the next." > > Nina: "shall we say: conditions the next, anantara paccaya?" L: This works for me if we understand that a particular votthapana citta > conditions a particular javana citta. N: The citta that falls away conditions the succeeding one. Not merely the above mentioned cittas. In this way kamma and also tendencies are accumulated from moment to moment. L: Although it is still a mystery how > that happens. Information is conveyed from one citta to another and > each citta modifies that information. N: I would not use the word info, nor modification. There is much more to that, see above. Kamma can produce result even after aeons. Kamma that is done cannot be modified. > L: ... (snipped) One problem is what does contact (phassa) contact. Votthapana conditions > javana but it doesn't contact it. N: The cetasika contact, phassa is a universal, it accompanies each citta and just contacts the object so that citta can know it. Votthapana is accompanied by contact that only contacts the rupa experienced by it in that process. L: If they both contact the rupa what is > accomplished? They can't cognize the rupa like sense consciousness. N: votthapana-citta determines the object, determines whether it will be followed by kusala citta or akusala citta. A function different from just seeing. Seeing does not determine anything. It only sees. They are, all of them, assisted by contact cetasika. L:In a > mind-door process what does the javana contact? Mind-door adverting is > gone when it arises. N: To be more precise, the Q, should be: In a mind-door process what does the contact accompanying javana-citta contact? Answer: the object experienced at that moment. A rupa or a nama. Or a concept. L:Is contact the sequential arising of adverting and > javana in the mind-door? N: Contact is a cetasika, see above. L:Is the mind-door the base for 5-door process > after the initial contact between external rupa and sensitive matter? N:Mind-door process follows upon sense-door process usually. (The rest snipped,) contact is a cetasika, see above. L:.... contact as initially happens with > external object and sensitive matter. These two rupas can arise at the > same time, unlike two consciousnesses. N: Contact cetasika is mental. It is different from physical contact. External object which is rupa and sensitive matter which is impinged on must be present to each other. That is right. Nina. 40317 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Howard Hi Howard, very good. Kom and I once discussed this expression, in the bones, used in Thai. Because Kh. Sujin had said that understanding has to be in the very bones, and then it can be a condition for the arising of satipatthana, direct awareness and understanding. It shows how firm it should be. I found it a good reminder. Nina. op 28-12-2004 16:09 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > By 'realization' I mean an > understanding that is in the bones - in the very marrow, so that not even a > whiff of > questioning remains, not even the barest inclination. 40318 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:59am Subject: I Think It is Time Hi, all - The death toll in the tsunami tragedy is at 52,000 and climbing. Whatever any of us may take 'pray' to mean, I think it is time for prayer and deeds. The deeds, for those of us not near the affected areas, is to make donations as we are able. My prayers are general but also very specifically for members of this list. I pray that none "here" have come to harm. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40319 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 1:33pm Subject: Re: I Think It is Time Hello all, For those wishing to donate: Lots of Aid Agencies in a number of countries http://tinyurl.com/6qs32 OR http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php? showtopic=10490&st=0&p=139276&#entry139276 Red Cross http://www.redcross.org/ Buddhist Peace Fellowship http://www.bpf.org/html/whats_now/events/tsunami.html Medecins Sans Frontieres - International http://www.msf.org/ Oxfam http://www.oxfam.org.au/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > The death toll in the tsunami tragedy is at 52,000 and climbing. > Whatever any of us may take 'pray' to mean, I think it is time for prayer and > deeds. The deeds, for those of us not near the affected areas, is to make donations > as we are able. My prayers are general but also very specifically for members > of this list. I pray that none "here" have come to harm. > > With metta, > Howard > 40320 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Indroduction Hi all, my name is Charles DaCosta, I live in Denmark. I was born and razed in the USA (east coast) but have lived in Denmark since 97. I am 43 years old, had a good Christian upbringing (training that is), and been involved in Buddhism since 1974. At different times I had planed to be Christian minister, a monk (Therevadin), and a Lama. However, life has not seen it fit for me to do either for more than teaching a class here and there. I have also trained in Zen. I practice martial artist (Chinese mainly) most of my life, and I tend to use it as a vehicle to teach Buddhism and Taoism. By profession I am a software engineer with several different types of degrees. Charles D ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 10:04 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi Charles, Welcome to DSG - I'm glad to see you've made yourself at home and you're already contributing to different threads. 40321 From: Egbert Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:09pm Subject: Re: I Think It is Time Hi all, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > The death toll in the tsunami tragedy is at 52,000 and climbing. > Whatever any of us may take 'pray' to mean, I think it is time for prayer and > deeds. The deeds, for those of us not near the affected areas, is to make donations > as we are able. My prayers are general but also very specifically for members > of this list. I pray that none "here" have come to harm. > I second and third those prayers. And may this event prompt a recognition of the universal and shared nature of suffering, whether times are good or bad. May this be an end to the butchery between Sinhalese and Tamils in Sri Lanka, Muslims and Buddhists in Thailand, cessasionists and government loyalists in Aceh. Kind Regards Herman > With metta, > Howard 40322 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? Icaro: "Hi Larry! Your definition of time clashes with Visudhimagga´s, Chp.XIV n.71 and Chp.XVII, n.3 (BPS Pariyatti edition)." Hi Icaro, If you are saying that there is nothing in these notes about time being fire and water, I agree. Otherwise, I don't see that these notes say much of anything about time. What do you mean??? Larry 40323 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? Icaro: "Time is real, space is real and their borders ( events) take us not to a "no-time" domain, but to another time or space segment." Hi Icaro, Ah! I see what you are getting at now. By "timeless" I was refering to nibbana, the unconditioned reality. Insight extinguishus time. All that is left is the no-time domain. Larry 40324 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Hi Charles (and Nina), I have nothing useful to add but wanted to say "hi" and welcome you aboard. You have an interesting perspective but I would like to pick up on it a little more before making a comment. Larry 40325 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:00pm Subject: Vism.XIV,127 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 127. It is fivefold according to the analysis into [bodily] pleasure, [bodily] pain, [mental] joy, [mental] grief, and equanimity. Herein, 'pleasure' is associated with profitable resultant body-consciousness (38) and 'pain' with unprofitable resultant body-consciousness (54). 'Joy' is associated with 62 kinds of consciousness, namely, as to sense sphere, with 4 kinds of profitable (1)-(4), with 4 resultant with root-cause (42)-(45),with 1 resultant without root-cause (40), with 4 functional with root-cause (73)-(76), with 1 functional without root-cause (72), and with 4 unprofitable (22)-(25); and as to the fine-material-sphere, with 4 kinds of profitable (9)-(12), 4 resultant (57)-(60), and 4 functional (81)-(84), leaving out that of the fifth jhana in each case; but there is no supramundane without jhana and consequently the [eight] kinds of supramundane (18)-(21) and (66)-(69) multiplied by the five jhanas make forty; but leaving out the eight associated with the fifth jhana, it is associated with the remaining 32 kinds of profitable resultant. 'Grief' is associated with the two kinds of unprofitable (30)-(31). 'Equanimity' is associated with the remaining fifty-five kinds of consciousness. 40326 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:17pm Subject: XIV 154 154. (xxxii)-(xxxiii) 'Compassion' and 'gladness' should be understood as given in the Description of the Divine Abodes (Ch.IX,92,94,95), except that those are of the fine-material sphere and have attained to absorption, while these are of the sense sphere. This is the only difference. Some, however, want to include among the inconstant both lovingkindness and equanimity. That cannot be accepted for, as to meaning, non-hate itself is lovingkindness, and specific neutrality is equanimity. 40327 From: Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] XIV 154 Please disregard this one. It's for later. Sent it to the wrong address. Larry 40328 From: Philip Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:17pm Subject: Re: For Nina: 20 Jan 02's Bay Area Study Topics Hello all I've been interested lately in vipallasa (perversions.) They are the illusions which prevent us from seeing the truth of suffering. Here is a passage from Roots of Good and Evil which I am still reviewing with great interest: "The truth of suffering is hidden by the four distortions of reality, vipallasa, the four great illusions of seeing permanence in the impermanent, happiness in what is truly suffering, selfhood in what is void of a self and beauty in the unbeautiful. THese distortions, powerful universal manifestations of ignorance and delusion shut out an understanding of the truth of suffering, and therby obscure the other truths, too." The following is a Useful Post sent by Kom on the topic of Vipallasa. It might be helpful in your ongoing consideration of the elimination of wrong view by sotapanna etc. Metta, Phil p.s I noticed that there is no mention of vipallasa in either of my sutta anthologies. (MN and SN) Is it introduced elsewhere in the Suttanta, or is it a teaching that comes from Abhidhamma or the commentaries? If the latter is the case, more evidence that a teaching needn't be explicitly featured in the Suttanta in order to deepen our understanding of the Noble Truth of suffering. Now here is Kom's post. If the chart doesn't come out well, you can find this as the first of the Useful Posts on "vipallasa": > Dear Nina, > > I am assigned to post some (not sure how much) information > about what the Bay Area's dhamma study group discussed this > week. On the 20th, we generally discussed 2 topics: > vipallasa (perversions), and citta-vithi (panca-dvara only, > haven't got to mano-dvara yet.) > > As for Vipallasa, there are 3 categories: > 1) Sanna-vipallasa (perversion of memory) (S) > 2) Citta-vipallasa (perversion of mind) (C) > 3) Dithi-vipallasa (perversion of view). (D) > > Except for the dithi vipallasa---which occurs only with the > 4 lobha-mula cittas (cittas rooted in attachment) with > micha-ditthi (wrong views)---sanna vipallasa, and citta > vipallasa occur with all akusala cittas (with some ariyans > exempted). Vipallassa are not said to occur in sobhana > (beautiful) cittas and ahetuka (without the 6 hetu > cetasikkas) cittas. > > The objects of the vipalassa are four: > 1) Seeing impermanence as permenance > 2) Seeing dukha as sukha > 3) Seeing anatta as atta > 4) Seeing asubha as subha > > The vipallasa is not completely eradicated until one becomes > an ariyan. The different levels of eradication are as > followed: > > Impermanence Dukha Anatta Asubha > Arahat X X X X X X X X X X X X > Anagami X X X S C X X X X X X X > Sagatakami X X X S C X X X X S C X > Sotapanna X X X S C X X X X S C X > Putujana S C D S C D S C D S C D > > Satipathana eliminates the vipallasa gradually. Different > kinds of satipatthana eliminate different kind of vipallasa > as followed: > > Kaya-nupassana eliminates asubha vipallasa > Citta-nupassana eliminates impermanence vipallasa > Vedana-nupassana eliminates dukha vipallasa > Dhamma-nupassana eliminates anatta vipallasa > > K. Jack mentioned that a type of satipatthana, even though > it eliminates a type of vipallasa as its main function, it > also eliminates other vipallasa, but not as its main > function. > > The rest of the session we spent discussing vithi-cittas. > > Nina, we also taped the entire session (for the first > time!). I am not sure of the sound quality of the tapes, > but it you like to have them, I can send them to you. > > kom 40329 From: Philip Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:30pm Subject: Vipallasa (was Re: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 65 - Perception/Sa~n~naa (l) Hello all In the previous post, I said that I couldn't find vipallasa in index of my SN anthology, but reading on in the Useful Posts I found this recent one from "Cetasikas": > We read in the Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, Chapter V, §9, > Perversions) about four perversions (vipallåsas) of saññ?E citta and > di?Ehi: > *** > -Monks, there are these four perversions of perception (saññ?E, four > -perversions of thought (citta), four perversions of view (di?Ehi). What > -four? > -To hold that in the impermanent there is permanence, is a > -perversion of perception, thought and view. To hold that in dukkha > -there is not-dukkha, is a perversion of perception, thought and view. > -To hold that in the not-self there is self, is a perversion of > -perception, thought and view. To hold that in the foul there is the > -fair, is aperversion of perception, thought and view. These are the four > -perversions of perception, thought and view?E> *** Metta, Phil 40330 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 7:55pm Subject: Re: Meditation [Tep's reply to message # 40259] Hi, Nina - In the Visuddhimagga 'yathabhutananna-dassana', the first correct vision of nama and rupa, is defined as follows: "..when there are the five aggregates [as objects] of clinging, there comesto be the mere term of common usage 'a being', 'a person', yet in the ultimate sense, when each component is examined, there is no being as a basis for the assumption 'I am' or ' I '; in the ultimate sense there is only mentality- materiality. The vision of one who sees in this way is called correct vision" [VM XVIII,28]. As to the development of this 'correct vision' by samatha meditation I have found Acariya Mun Bhuridatta Thera's method in "A Heart Released" very methodically explained, step by step. Acariya Mun emphasized using the body as the great frame of reference to develop nimittas and "have it analyzed minutely into all of its parts that are composed of the properties (dhatu) of earth, water, fire, and wind -- this is called patibhaga". This lecture is very interesting because he also connected this 'correct vision' to the next level of insight, i.e. 'this is not mine, not I, not my self'. Please read the following two extracted paragraphs from the lecture, and I would very much appreciate to know what you think. "Separate the body into the elements of earth, water, fire, and wind, examining it until you really see it in those terms. At this stage, you may use any strategies of your own devising that are agreeable to your temperament, but you must not in any event abandon the original reference point that first appeared to you. When you are investigating at this stage, you should work at it and develop it repeatedly. Don't investigate once and then let it go for half a month or a month. Investigate in and out, back and forth, again and again. In other words, withdraw inward to quiet the mind and then come out again to investigate the body. Don't exclusively investigate the body or exclusively quiet the mind. "When you have investigated in this way until you have it thoroughly mastered, what happens next is what comes of its own accord. The mind is bound to converge in a big way; and the instant it converges, everything will appear to converge, being one and the same. The entire world will be nothing but elements. At the same time, an image will appear of the world as being level as a drum head, because the entire world is of one and the same inherent nature. Forests, mountains, people, animals -- even you yourself -- will all ultimately have to be leveled down in one and the same way. Together with this vision, knowledge arises, cutting off all doubts in the heart. This is called yatha- bhuta-ñana-dassana vipassana: the clear insight that both knows and sees things for what they actually are. "This step is not the end point. It is the beginning of the next stage we have to practice, which we as earnest meditators are to work at and develop repeatedly in order for heightened awareness to be mastered and complete. Then we will see that the mental fashionings that suppose, 'This is mine... That is me,' are inconstancy; and that because of attachment they are suffering -- for all elements have been the way they are all along: arising, aging, growing ill, and dying, arising and deteriorating since before we were born". http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/mun/released.html Kindest regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Ken O and Tep, > > op 27-12-2004 06:23 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > > > Yatha-bhuta-nana-dassana, interesting > > word. Nina - could you help again on this term. thanks. I think it > > is good to quote the pali rather than the English term then we are > > able to be concise. It helps in the understanding of suttas. > N: yathaa: just as, like . bhuuta: what has become, what really is. > ñaa.na-dassana: knowledge and vision. > Take S.N. II, Nidaanavagga, Upanisa sutta, Transcendental Dependent > Arising, Wheel 277/278, Transl and notes by B.B. Concentration conditions > knowledge and vision of things as they really are. And this is the > development of insight, vipassanaa bhaavana. > There are many levels of knowledge and vision of things as they really are. > As to the Sutta on the Great Sixfold Sensefield (M.N. 149), this stresses a > gradual development: anxieties and torments decrease. At the end arahatship > is referred to. But all 37 factors of enlightenment develop together as > satipatthana is developed. The Co also indicates that there may be calm at > one moment, insight at another moment, but as regards the ariyamagga, they > are together, at the same time. They are apair. The sutta ends with vijjaa > and vimutti, and this refers to the arahatta magga. > As to pariñña, Tep mentions, this is closely connected with the stages of > insight. I save this for our thread on vipassana ñaa.na. There are three > degrees of pariññaa. > Nina. 40331 From: Sarah and Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 9:53pm Subject: Reminder – trim those tails! Dear All, Just a reminder to trim *all parts* of previous posts that are not necessary for your reply. Also, please put your reply at the beginning rather than at the end of long messages wherever possible. These points assist those reading in digest form, those who print out messages or those reading in haste. Thanks, Jon & Sarah (who also forget at times) Any comments off-list only! 40332 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Dec 28, 2004 11:39pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 86- Volition/cetanaa (p) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** In the ‘Tila-Muììhi Jåtaka (252) we read about a monk who fell easily into a rage and spoke roughly. The Buddha said: “This is not the first time, monks, that this man has been passionate. He was just the same before.” He then related a story of one of his past lives. After the discourse the Buddha explained the four noble Truths and the passionate monk became an anågåmí. He eradicated anger completely. Even though one has strong inclinations to greed and anger, accumulated for many lives, the paññå of the eightfold Path can eventually eradicate defilements. The greedy monk and the angry monk in the above mentioned Jåtakas could attain enlightenment because they had also accumulated sati and paññå. Listening to the Buddha was the right condition for them to attain the stage of the anågåmí. If we understand that our behaviour now is conditioned by accumulated inclinations we had in the past we will be less inclined to take it for ‘my behaviour’. Each reality which arises is conditioned. Generosity which arises is conditioned by generosity in the past, it is not ‘my generosity’. Anger which arises is conditioned by anger in the past, it is not ‘my anger’. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40333 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 0:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' Hi Ken O, I was glad that you came in on this thread and you made some good points which I agree with. Of course, B.Bodhi is very familiar with the same suttas you refer to;-). ... > I have still not discuss whether is right concentration just only > jhanas - there are many suttas quote about right concentration - > that is for another dicussion, if we wish to explore it further. … S: Please elaborate further if you wish. I agree with the point that you made in your post to Alan about taking the default reading as being one of jhanas being necessary or implied. Why not take the default reading that they are not necessary? You mentioned his assertion that the ‘jhanas experience in the culmination of enlightenment are not supramundane’, but I think you’d need to quote from his article for this and some of the other comments you make. He clearly explains that rt concentration arising at path moments is referred to as jhana because of it’s equivalence to first jhana intensity, but not because jhana has necessarily been developed. You said ‘he also forget that one can also become enlightened after the arupa jhanas also’. I think again, you’d need to give us refs and links because it’s hard for me to check or follow these comments. I agreed with your other comments to Alan. I especially liked these: “k: Sorry I do not need to sit down one corner to observe the six fold sense objects, every moment is a practice if one can see the three characteristics to all citas, regardless kusala or akusala.” “k:Can one master over cittas that are anatta? Even Buddha cannot master his own kamma of cuti-citta that will come eventually to all rebirth in the six realms, so how are we going to master it.” …. I’m happy to continue any discussion of the article, but please give some references or quotes if so. Metta, Sarah ===== 40334 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Things the Tathagata has not declared & Sariputta's Answer Hi Andrew T, (Nina, Suan & All) Writing to AndrewL yesterday reminded me that I’d kept a couple of your posts aside (yes, Mike, the flagged syndrome;-)) to return to some time. Now is sometime and I hope you’re still reading. (Btw, Thanks also for the Cooran discussion update – much appreciated). --- Andrew wrote: > During my evening read of Dhamma last night, I came across SN II 12 > (Bodhi p 680)- a conversation between Mahakassapa and Sariputta. > Sariputta asks whether after death the Tathagata exists/does not > exist/both exists & does not exist/neither exists nor not exists. > Mahakassapa answers that the Tathagata did not declare these > things "because this is unbeneficial, irrelevant to the fundamentals > of the holy life, and does not lead to revulsion, to dispassion, to > cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to > Nibbana." > > Is anyone aware of any reference where it is said that the Tathagata > did not declare whether dhammas exist or not exist for the reasons > listed by Mahakassapa? …. S: Others are much more familiear with the suttas than I am, but surely the point of the discussion above was to show that it’s meaningless to talk about the Tathagata existing/not existing (as Antony wrote about before) because no self, no Tathagata. On the otherhand, the Tipitaka is entirely about dhammas (existing) and to be known (as opposed to concepts about them). I think I must be missing your point, but perhaps I’m at least throwing the thread back into the ring at the risk of the Cooranites smiling;-). … > I know this concerns the good old ontology issue: when faced with > those who believed "nothing exists", why didn't the Buddha tell them > that issues of existence/nonexistence are "unbeneficial, irrelevant > to the fundamentals of the holy life ..."? …. S: Doesn’t it depend on whether the question is about a self or thing or idea existing/not existing and a dhamma such as seeing or visible object existing? Please elaborate further. I’m beginning to see why possibly no one else bought into this one;-). Another thread of yours which I was also v.interested in was #37846. You always have difficult questions and I don’t have the answer here. You refer to a note BB gives referring to the commentary to SN, NidanaVagga,12:32(2) The Kalaara, where Sariputta discusses the way in which he became an arahant, which was also referred to in the Dighanakha sutta we discussed before, when the Buddha talked about the various feelings. Anyway, the particular cy note you asked about says: “Spk: “ ‘the taints do not flow within me (aasavaa naanussavanti): <..> “ ‘And I do not despise myself (attaana~n ca naavajaanaami)’ BB translates and says this means ‘the abandoning of self contempt (omaana) is indicated’. As we know, at this stage of arahantship, all conceit is eradicated and I don’t know why only the latter would be suggested. I’d be glad if Nina, Suan or any other Pali expert could help with the last phrase or suggest if it’s a standard phrase. (Nina and Suan, this was a post of Andrew’s when we were in India. His actual question was: “Why does Sariputta stress the abandonment of self-contempt or inferiority conceit..? ‘ You may like to look at his original message too.) Andrew, some people like Nina don’t have BB’s translation which is why I’ve added the relevant Pali phrases. Metta, Sarah p.s Suan, I’m glad to see your contribution yesterday. Hoping you’re well. ====== 40335 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: For Nina: 20 Jan 02's Bay Area Study Topics Hi Phil. Thanks, I have to hurry. Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, Ch 5 (Rohitassa), § 9. other notation: II, 51). Four Perversions. Path of Discrimination, Kuddhaka Nikaya, Ch 8 (p. 277), and Co I have in Thai. Nina. op 29-12-2004 02:17 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > p.s I noticed that there is no mention of vipallasa in either of my > sutta anthologies. 40336 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] XIV 154, Larry. Hi Larry, you certainly look ahead of time. I have a very long Tiika of Vis. 127, have to sort out what I use. But you had a lot of typing for this one too! Sorry friends for delay answering upcoming Emails. These days we need to see my father more often. Nina. op 29-12-2004 01:35 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Please disregard this one. It's for later. Sent it to the wrong address. 40337 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? By "timeless" I was refering to > nibbana, the unconditioned reality. Insight extinguishes time. All that > is left is the no-time domain. Buddhaghosa, in Vis. Chapt. IX ( I am quoting it by memory, but I can give to you all at DSG the right paragraphs later), that the Octuple Noble Path IS the Own Nibbana. So, Larry, as a matter of text interpretation I could disagree with you about Nibbana being as a Timeless Domain. The Noble Path has its existence embedded in a time-context... and so is the Nibbana. At my opinion it suggests a different kind of time, as real as our mundane counting off about seconds,minutes, hours, days, etc. In resume, an other kind of time, but not a timeless domain. What do you think about it ? Corrections are welcome! Mettaya, Ícaro 40338 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:41am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Htoo > > that is logical reasoning by assuming that due to a manusaa > patisandhi the tadarammana cittas should be kusala vipaka. The one > citta of aksuala vipaka that can do the job of tadarammana citta does > not mean that the tadarammana cittas of a human should be kusala > vipaka since there are more kusala vipakas citta than akusala vipaka > cittas. By assuming this type of logical reasoning, I think there is > likely for us to err. Still I like to have the source of this > statment > > Ken O ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Ken O, I have answered that there are 11 tadarammana cittas. Any of these 11 tadarammana cittas can perform tadarammana function depending on conditions. My logical thoughts are just contemplation on these matters that there are 10 kusala vipaka tadarammana cittas and only one akusala vipaka tadarammana citta. Yes. This does not necessarily mean all human tadarammana cittas are kusala vipaka tadarammana cittas. And I said, if there are somanassa javana cittas, then somanassa tadarammana citta can follow them. Here there is no somanassa akusala vipaka tadarammana citta at all. All somanassa tadarammana cittas are kusala vipaka tadarammana cittas. If preceeding javana cittas are domanassa javana cittas, upekkha tadarammana cittas will follow. In this case, there are 4 upekkha kusala vipaka tadarammana cittas, and one upekkha akusala vipaka tadarammana cittas. Here any of 5 upekkha tadarammana cittas can perform the job of tadammana. As all are vipaka cittas, any of these 5 tadarammana cittas are not kusala or akusala dhamma at all. When the object is anittharammana, this does not mean anittharammana is akusala. Because anittharammana is rupa. All rupa dhammas are abyakata dhamma. Rupas are not akusala dhamma or kusala dhamma. But because of anittharammana, arising vipaka cittas are akusala vipaka cittas. Pancavinnana cittas, sampaticchana cittas, santirana cittas all will be akusala vipaka cittas. But pancadvaravajjana and votthapana or manodvaravajjana citta are kiriya cittas while javana cittas are akusala dhamma or kusala dhamma in non-arahats. In pancadvara vithi vara at anittharammana 1. kiriya citta starts to arise ( pancadvaravajjana citta) 2. akusala vipaka cittas ( pancavinnana, sampaticchana, santirana ) 3. kiriya citta again ( votthapana citta of manodvaravajjana citta ) 4. akusala javana cittas ( if not mindful ) and kusala javana cittas ( if mindful even though it is anittharammana) 5. vipaka tadarammana cittas If javana cittas are kusala citta ( example bad smell are recognized through mahasatipatthana and the meditator is developing kusala bhavana) then there is no reason that kusala vipaka tadarammana cittas cannot arise especially in human beings. But if ignorant people are viewing on such anittharammana like seeing of rotten dead bodies or smelling of rotten dead bodies, they will develop akusala javana cittas of domanassa vedana. In that case, somanassa tadarammana will not follow. Instead upekkha tadarammana will follow. Again there are 5 upekkha tadarammana. Even though manussa or human beings are born with one of 8 mahavipaka citta, akusala vipaka tadarammana can still do the job. Kusala vipaka tadarammana can equally do the job. But tendencies are more likely that kusala vipaka tadarammana may follow because all bhavanga cittas are kusala vipaka cittas. But this is not always. Akusala vipaka tadarammana can also do the job. Nina already said 'the question has not been answered'. I know that. I will not provide the source. Because there are many many dhammas and there are many many details. Dhammas are going on according to conditions. There is no dhamma that is outside of these conditions. It is patthana dhamma. Regarding disappearance of Buddha's teaching, patthana dhamma will be the first to disappear. Because it is so profound that ordinary unleanred people will not understand. Because of complexity they will put aside patthana dhamma. I regret to say I cannot provide the detail that you want that is 'the source for specific detail'. I do hope this message will serve you well in understanding of dhammas. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40339 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Nina wrote: Dear Htoo and Ken O, Yes, but the question is still not answered. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Nina, I have responded to Ken O. Yes. The question is still not answered. I already answered to Ken O that I will not provide the source as there are so many details in dhamma and there are so many books on different topic. So it is hard to pinpoint. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina wrote: Htoo, maybe you can ask your Myanmar teachers. You have Mianmar sources that we do not have. Thus, O.K. tadarammana cittas maybe mostly kusala vipaakacittas, but again, that means that these mostly do not experience disagreeable rupas, even when these are the object of a sense-door process. Right or wrong? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Here disagreeable objects are called anittharammana. In pancaarammana all objects are rupas. Rupas are abyakata dhammas. They are not kusala dhamma or akusala dhammas. Example is bad smell arisen from rotten dead bodies is definitely not agreeable object. But if mindful, there still can arise kusala javana cittas.[Arahats will always have kiriya javana cittas.] I have discussed the detail in the reply to Ken O under this heading. You can then decide right or wrong after reading the discussion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina wrote: I had understood that the tadarammana cittas are two more moments of experiencing a rupa in a sense-door process. But even though I am a human being, I do not only experience pleasant objects, I also very often experience unpleasant objects. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: In pancarammana all objects are rupa dhamma. Rupa dhamma are abyakata dhamma. They are not akusala dhamma. They are not kusala dhamma. But their arising cause akusala vipaka cittas to arise initially. Votthapana citta which is kiriya citta decide how to feel or realize or fully apperceive the anittharammana or disagreeable object. Because of this manodvaravajjana citta who is performing votthapana function or determing function, javana cittas have to follow. Here depending on accumulation there can be 1. domanassa akusala javana cittas 2. somanassa akusala javana cittas(inappropriate but arise/vultures) 3. upekkha akusala javana cittas ( uddhacca not vicikiccha ) 4. upekkha kusala javana cittas ( in mahasatipatthana /no somanassa) 5. upekkha kiriya javana cittas ( in arahats/no somanassa ) Jhana cittas do not reside on anittharammanas. Magga and phala cittas do not reside on anittharammana. Among kamavacara cittas there are three kinds of javana cittas. 1. akusala javana cittas ( 1,2,3 above) 2. kusala javana cittas (4) 3. kiriya javana cittas (5) Even when we experience anittharammana or disagreeable object, there can still follow kusala vipaka tadarammana citta. Equally akusala vipaka tadarammana can also do the job here. With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Nina. op 27-12-2004 03:48 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: 40340 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:41am Subject: Thinking of friends in Sri Lanka and elsewhere... This is a note from Gayan in Sri Lanka. Like everyone else here, both Jon and I sincerely hope any DSGers, families and friends have not suffered in the areas affected by the tsunami. Metta, Sarah. ==================================================== Hi Sarah/Mike, Thanks very much for the mails. I am OK, and my immediate family members are OK as well. (yes I am in SL) But as you know a lot of people were not that lucky.. (yes, luck , kamma and all stuff ) This was a total surprise , and I have been using the following to explain that to others.. This was like having to face an avalanche of snow in the middle of sahara,. I was able to contact Ranil and he and his family are OK..and they very much appreciate your concern. (CC'ed Ranil's working email) Hopefully DSG'ers in other affected countries are OK as well.. Pls Take care, Gayan 40341 From: Ken O Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Things the Tathagata has not declared & Sariputta's Answer Hi Sarah > > “Spk: “ ‘the taints do not flow within me (aasavaa naanussavanti): > <..> “ ‘And I do not despise myself (attaana~n ca naavajaanaami)’ > > BB translates and says this means ‘the abandoning of self contempt > (omaana) is indicated’. k: I like to add, when one despise oneself, it is dosa mula citta. so that is why "and I do not despise myself" Ken O 40342 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:10am Subject: Dhamma Thread (209) Dear Dhamma Friends, In 'vithi-pavatti' or 'arising of vithi cittas' there are many different processes or many different vithi varas. There are 2 different kinds of vithi varas namely panca-dvara vithi vara and mano- dvara vithi vara. [vithi means 'serial'. When you travel from a city to another city by road, there are many landmarks of small towns and small villages. The road takes from number one to 100 for example. Your car will travel through 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and so on. This serial is called 'vithi'. The car will not go 8, 2, 78, 33, 94 or in any mad manners but from 1 to 100 serially.] Pavatti means 'arising of cittas and cetasikas'. In a life nama- dhamma starts as patisandhi citta. This citta also comprises cetasikas with it. That particular time is called 'patisandhi kala'. Kala means 'time' 'era' 'age' 'point' etc. Patisandhi Pali word is made up of 'pati' which means 'again' and 'sandhi' which means 'link'. Patisandhi citta links the cuti[dying] citta of immediate past life and the 1st bhavanga[life-continuing] citta of this life. This linking is not physical one. And it is temporal linking. Temporal linking is like this; now look at you second hand of your watch or look at the dial of clock displaying numbers. 1 second, 2 second, 3 second. This is just an example. Second 2 is linking second 1 and second 3. Patisandhi does this linking function. Placewise 'second-one may be at heaven[deva] and 'second-two' may be on the top of a mountain or in a velly. Apart from patisandhi kala [explained], all other arising of cittas and cetasikas are known as 'pavatti-kala'. Vara means 'the turn' 'the exact frequency of the turn'. For example, you have 4 different meals. 1.breakfast, 2.lunch, 3.dinner, and 4.supper. The frequencies are four in number. The exact frequency of breakfast is 'one' or its turn is 'turn one'. Lunch is 'two' or 'turn two' and so on. So vithi vara means 'the turn of serial cittas arising'. This turn may be for seeing visual object. That turn may be hearing auditory object and another turn may be thinking or reasoning at past objects. These are vithi varas. Except patisandhi kala, cittas arise in process free if bhavanga cittas and cittas arise in vithi varas if not process free. There are many vithi varas. They may be panca-dvara [5-door] vithi vara or mano-dvara[mind-door] vithi vara at a vara[turn]. Pancadvara vithi varas are all realetd to kama [sensuous] objects. That is 5 physical senses[1.colours, 2.sounds, 3.smells, 4.tastes, 5.touches]. Mano-dvara vithi vara can take any object out of 6 kinds. These 6 kinds are 1. 5 pasada rupas [5 clear materials] 2. 16 sukhuma rupas [16 subtle materials] 3. 89 cittas [89 states of consciousness] 4. 52 cetasikas [52 mental factors] 5. 1 nibbana [1 absolute peace] 6. 0 pannatti [naming/names] There are many different mano-dvara vithi varas. They are 1. kama javana vithi vara [sensuous impulsion serial-cittas' turn] 2. appana jhana javana vithi vara [close-absorptive impulsion sc turn] 3. magga-phala appana javana vithi vara[path-frution-close impulsion] 4. jhana abhinna vithi vara[absorptive-suprapower serial-cittas' turn] 5. jhana samapatti vithi vara[absorption-reaching serial-cittas' turn] 6. phala samapatti vithi vara [fruition-reaching serial-cittas' turn] In actual term or in real term, there is no being at all but cittas and cetasikas are arising and falling away along with arising and falling away of rupas even though they are not mixed and they are separate matters. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 2. This post Dhamma Thread (209) is especially formulated. All Pali words used here in this post are well explained. If still there is confusion, do not hesitate to ask or reply. 3. Dhamma Thread (001) to (208) are about citta, cetasika, rupa, nibbana, pannatti, their co-arising, their functions and different classifications on citta. Citta is classified in different ways so that citta can well be understood. 4. There are few errors and there are some typos. For Dhamma Thread (001) to (208) I would advise you to join JourneyToNibbana Yahoo Group. This is not for promotion. But JourneyToNibbana is a place where Dhamma Threads can easily be tackled. 5. Discussionwise please post replies to any of these Dhamma Threads at DSG[dhammastudygroup], d-l[dhamma-list], Triplegem Yahoo Group or at JourneyToNibbana. I will try my best as long as I am available at internet. 6. There are some remarks that regarding use of Pali there are 3 kinds of users. One uses many Pali words without ever explaining anything, another one uses Pali words with explanations in parenthesis, and the third one uses Pali words explained and then uses without explanation further. 7. The reason that I am using many Pali words is to maintain their accuracy. Anyway, I do hope this post Dhamma Thread is very clear to any kinds of readers with different backgrounds. 40343 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Things the Tathagata has not declared & Sariputta's Answer Hi Ken O,(Htoo & Nina) --- Ken O wrote: > > “Spk: “ ‘the taints do not flow within me (aasavaa naanussavanti): > > <..> “ ‘And I do not despise myself (attaana~n ca naavajaanaami)’ > > > > BB translates and says this means ‘the abandoning of self contempt > > (omaana) is indicated’. > > k: I like to add, when one despise oneself, it is dosa mula citta. > so that is why "and I do not despise myself" ... S: I agree with you that as we usually use this phrase, dosa would be implied (eradicated at the stage of anagami). But here, BB goes on to say omaana (inferiority conceit) is indicated. As you know, all kinds of conceit including omaana only arise with attachment (eradicated at the stage of arahant). So what exactly does the Pali in the comy suggest? While I'm talking to you, have you looked at the references for tadarammana details in Dispeller? There's a lot of detail. In particular, look at 690-699 and 835-835 in vol 1 and let us know if helps. In the last reference it talks about the sense door contact and mind door contact with manodvaravajjana citta (mind door adverting) being a decisive support condition for the feelings arising with tadarammana. It's all a little beyond me and I've seen but not read the last posts between you and Htoo, so I'll keep quiet now. Metta, Sarah ======= 40344 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:42am Subject: 5-door-processing cittas Dear Dhamma Friends, A life as we conventionally know is composed of nama and rupa. Regarding nama, it is not a single entity. It is a mixture. Nama is made up of 4 vipaka-nama.kkhandhas or 4 resultant mental aggregates. They are 1. vedana.kkhandha or feeling aggregates 2. sanna.kkhandha or perception aggregates 3. sankhara.kkhandha or formation aggregates 4. vinnana.kkhandha or consciousness aggregates Vinnanakkhandha or consciousness aggregates are fianlly 89 kinds of mental states or 89 cittas. Vedanakkhandha or feeling aggregate is vedana cetasika or feeling. Sannakkhandha or perception aggregate is sanna cetasika or perception. Sankhara.kkhandha or formation aggregate is all cetasikas except 'vedana' and 'sanna' which are separate khandhas. So all in all, nama.kkhandhas or mental aggregates are citta and cetasikas combinations. As all cetasikas have to depend on citta, I used to discuss focussing on citta. In a life the first citta is called patisandhi citta (linking consciousness) and the last is cuti citta (dying consciousness). In between when there is no specific object to be attended, there will only be bhavanga cittas (life-continuing consciousness). Patisandhi citta, bhavanga cittas, and cuti citta are process-free cittas that is they are not in any specific processing but they are just continuous flow of citta one after another like the flow of a river. That is they are not vithi cittas. They do not take the current object but they just take the past object. When the current objects are being taken, then arising cittas are called vithi cittas or serial-cittas or conscious-mind. The turn of their arising is called vithi vara. When the object is one of 5 physical senses, then vithi vara will be pancadvara vithi vara or 5-sense-door citta process. In this process BBB...BBBACUPKSTVJJJJJJJDDBBB...BBBBBB B = Bhavanga cittas A = Atita bhavanga citta ( passed bhavanga citta ) C = Bhavanga calana citta( vibrating bhavanga citta ) U = Bhavanguppaccheda citta( arresting bhavanga citta) P = Pancadvaravajjana citta( 5-sense-door-adverting-consciousness) K = Kayavinnana citta ( body-consciousness, touch sense ) S = Sampaticchana citta ( receiving consciousness ) T = Santirana citta ( investigating consciousness ) V = Votthapana citta ( determining consciousness ) J = Javana citta ( mental impulsion, this is swift mental sensing ) D = Tadarammana citta ( retention consciousness ) Here P for Pancadvaravajjana citta arises at kaya-dvara. Kaya-dvara is kaya-vatthu and it is a rupa. It serves as a door for sense consciousness. Kaya pasada rupa which is kaya-vatthu serves as door-way for photthabba-arammana or object of touch. It can also be called a gate. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40345 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:01am Subject: Mind-door processing cittas Dear Dhamma Friends, At mind-door there arise cittas which are a bit different from 5-door processing cittas. At mind-door process or manodvara vithi vara, cittas are not the same. BBB...BBAAACUMJJJJJJJDDBB....BBBBBB B = Bhavanga cittas ( life-continuing consciousness ) A = Atita bhavanga cittas ( passed bhavanga cittas ) C = Bhavanga calana ( vibrating bhavanga citta ) U = Bhavanguppaccheda citta ( arresting bhavanga citta) M = Manodvaravajjana citta ( mind-door-adverting consciousness ) J = Javana cittas ( mental impulsion ) D = Tadarammana cittas ( renetion-consciousness ) Here there is no rupa as object or arammana. And there is no rupa- dvara or physical door. The mind sense door here is assumed to be U or Bhavanguppaccheda citta. It is mind door. To compare with 5-door process this 6th door or mano-dvara or mind- door is nama dhamma while in 5-doors all are rupa dhammas. A life is nama-rupa.[ Avijja paccaya sankhara, sankhara paccaya vinnana, vinnana paccaya nama-rupa ]. A life is a whole of life- processes of arising and passing away of nama and rupa. The first to arise in a conventional life is patisandhi citta and its sampayutta[co-arising] rupa hadaya vatthu. Patisandhi citta is a mixture of pure citta and cetasikas. The last to arise is cuti citta or dying consciousness. The last rupa to arise is hadaya vatthu of 17 moments away back from cuti citta. In between are all bhavanga cittas or life-continuing consciousness if there is no current object. These bhavanga cittas take their defined object of past object, which is the object of marana-asanna-javana-cittas[ death-frequenting- impulsive-consciousness] of immediate past life. So the whole block of cittas has patiandhi citta at the top and cuti citta at the bottom and in between are all bhavanga cittas provided there is no current object. When there is current object, how does that object come in contact with citta. Cittas that know that current object are all vithi cittas. In mind-door the whole series is started with manodvaravajjana citta and the series ends with 2nd tadarammana citta or retention consciousness. As this new block of cittas of vithi vara or processing consciousness do exist in the total original block of citta, it can be assumed that the new block starts with manodvaravajjana citta. So the old block is made hole by new block. Where does this new block come in. It comes in through mind-door. So mind-door may be assumed as a citta just before manodvaravajjana citta. It is a bhavanga citta and it is bhavanguppaccheda citta or arresting bhavanga citta. All these cittas processed at mind-door have to depend on hadaya vatthu when in pancavokara bhumis or when in realms with 5 khandhas that is one rupa.kkhandha and 4 nama.kkhandhas. But when in catuvokara bhumi or when in realms without any rupa there will be only 4 nama.kkhandhas of feeling, perception, formation and consciousness. All these 4 nama.kkhandha do not depend on any rupa at all because of the power of arupa jhana. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40346 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: ... Icaro stated: "So, Larry, as a matter of text interpretation I could disagree with you about Nibbana being as a Timeless Domain. The Noble Path has its existence embedded in a time-context... and so is the Nibbana. At my opinion it suggests a different kind of time, as real as our mundane counting off about seconds, minutes, hours, days, etc.In resume, an other kind of time, but not a timeless domain. " I have no problems with this way of expressing things and I think Larry doesn't either. In my first message about this topic I said: "The idea that there is "one time dimension". There are in conventional physics three space dimensions and in modern physics four or even ten. So why isn't it possible that there are two (or more) time-dimensions ? When something is happening in one time- dimension it can be the 'now', the 'present moment' during that happening in another time-dimension. Thinking that there is just one time-dimension is conventional thinking." (To avoid misunderstanding: I'm not talking about the 'three times' used often in Buddhism: history, present time and future because that's about periods in one time-dimension) I think now Larry, Icaro and me agree (although we use different technical languages) on the conclusion: Each of the four ultimate realities has its own time- dimension. 'Time' happens in the four independent of each other (maybe there are only three time-dimensions, that citta and cetasika hacve the same). Nibbana has its own time-dimension, although mundane human beings can have the perception that nibbana is a timeless domain. (To use a metaphore: a black hole is a astrophysical phenomena; for somebody living inside a black hole - physically not possible but in similes everything is possible - time is something totally different as for somebody outside that black hole and looking at it) Another question is: does this talking about time-dimensions have a soteriological meaning or is it only a philosophical game? To me it has meaning. In the first place it is an exercise to free myself from conventional thinking (perhaps it's more an exercise in Zen-Buddhistic way but that's no problem to me) In the second place it helps me (a little bit) to understand the relation between nama and rupa because evry time again in my western trained mind I translate these two in the pair mind and matter of Descartes although I know that that is not correct. More general: thinking about the question: do we have a kind of clock in us for counting off about seconds, minutes, hours, days, etc - as Icaro is saying - for another time-dimension than the rupa one ? Metta Joop 40347 From: Frank Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:37am Subject: aid for Sri Lanka (letter from Bhikkhu Bodhi) I received this from Bhavana Society [info@b...] =================================================== December 28, 2004 Dear Kind Friends, As probably you might have already known, the worst ever disaster has happened in Sri Lanka. Global news media has reported at least 18,706 people have lost their lives and billions upon billions dollars worth of properties have been destroyed by the huge tidal waves caused by the under sea earthquake of 9.00 magnitude in Jakarta. The worst hit is Sri Lanka, a country that has been devastated by the war between 1983 and 2002. Sri Lanka, already poor and trying to recover from chaos and unrest from the war, now hit by this unspeakable earthquake causing enormous degree of suffering to millions of people, needs your help. There is a massive task ahead: removing and disposing 18,706 dead bodies, treating the wounded, the sick; providing food, clean water, and temporary shelters for millions of people who have lost their homes. If you wish to donate any other material things like cloths, medicine, food items please send to: Bhante K. Uparatana at 2600 Elmont Street, Wheaten, MD. 20902-27 Please read Bhikkhu Bodhi's letter below. With Metta, Bhante Gunaratana Bodhi Monastery 67 Lawrence Road Lafayette N.J. 07848 December 27, 2004 Dear Dharma Friends, The terrible tsunami that swept over large parts of south and southeast Asia on Sunday morning caused unimaginable destruction and a horrific death toll that continues to spiral upwards each day. The country hardest hit by the tidal wave was Sri Lanka, the island-nation off the southeast tip of India directly opposite the earthquake's epicenter. Sri Lanka is the country where I received monastic ordination and spent twenty-three years of my thirty-two years as a Buddhist monk. Since the third century B.C., Sri Lanka has maintained a continuous Buddhist heritage, beginning when the monk Mahinda and the nun Sanghamitta, son and daughter of the Indian Buddhist emperor Ashoka, brought the Buddha's teachings there from India. Buddhism has profoundly shaped all aspects of Sri Lankan life and culture, and even today Sri Lanka can claim some of the world's foremost exponents of the Dharma. The tidal wave killed at least 12,000 people along the coasts of Sri Lanka. It has left up to a million people homeless, bereft of all their life's possessions, lacking even the simplest necessities. To cope with this emergency, the country is in desperate need of all the amenities of life: dry food rations, tents, medical supplies, mosquito nets, etc. There is even a shortage of sanitary drinking water. The nation's economy has been severely damaged by the quake, and it will take a long time before it can recover from this calamity. At Bodhi Monastery we are collecting funds to send to Sri Lanka to provide emergency aid to the victims of the tsunami. From deep in my heart I appeal to you to make a donation. The money we collect will be sent to the Permanent Mission of Sri Lanka at the United Nations, which has established a special relief fund for this purpose. Please kindly make your check payable to Bodhi Monastery and mark it: Tsunami Relief for Sri Lanka. Please send your donation promptly, as we would like to present the check to the Sri Lankan Mission by the end of the first week of January. We will issue receipts for all donations received. Donations can be either sent by post to the monastery, given to me personally (with your name & address attached so we can issue a receipt), or given to Kathy Wu, who has offered to collect funds on behalf of the monastery (again, attach your name & address). I thank you in advance for your help. Please remember that generosity, according to the Buddha, is the root and foundation of all wholesome qualities - the first basis of merit and the first of the six and ten paramitas. May the merit serve you as a source of happiness in this life and a cause for spiritual progress in future lives. With metta and blessings of the Holy Triple Gem, Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Please note no e-mail addresses will be sent to any organization, this is the only e-mail you will receive. ===== frank@4... 40348 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? Hi, Joop! That´s the point! The Noble Path is the true Nibbana, with its own time (I could say "measureless", like a Heiddeger´s quote on "Being and Time", but it would only add more complicated notes to this question!). Call it "Timeless" ís only a matter of concept...these "concept" I do think that disagrees with Buddhaghosa´s propositionson Visuddhimagga, for example, since it could suggest something different of time itself at its event´s frontiers. (To use a > metaphore: a black hole is a astrophysical phenomena; for somebody > living inside a black hole - physically not possible but in similes > everything is possible - time is something totally different as for > somebody outside that black hole and looking at it) Dear Joop, This "Black Hole" example is a very apt one indeed. Have you ever felt such "dilation of time" when reading an interesting book or chatting with a dearly intimate ? It´s very similar: following the octuple path gives you another perspective at your life and society, a better care of the matters concerning your own life. Mettaya, Ícaro 40349 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Things the Tathagata has not declared & Sariputta's Answer Hi Sarah, Ken O, avajaanaati, to despise: from avajja: low, inferior, blamable. B.B. is right. But often we also have dosa, there are several moments: despising oneself with dosa and thinking oneself inferior, with clinging to the importance of self. Nina. op 29-12-2004 14:30 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > k: I like to add, when one despise oneself, it is dosa mula citta. >> so that is why "and I do not despise myself" > ... > S: I agree with you that as we usually use this phrase, dosa would be > implied (eradicated at the stage of anagami). But here, BB goes on to say > omaana (inferiority conceit) is indicated. As you know, all kinds of > conceit including omaana only arise with attachment (eradicated at the > stage of arahant). So what exactly does the Pali in the comy suggest? 40350 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma Thread (185), Htoo. Dear Htoo, thank you for your answer to Ken O and me. I do understand that we cannot find out all details. Nina. op 29-12-2004 13:01 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Htoo: Dear Nina, I have responded to Ken O. Yes. The question is > still not answered. I already answered to Ken O that I will not > provide the source as there are so many details in dhamma and there > are so many books on different topic. So it is hard to pinpoint. 40351 From: Egbert Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 1:23pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi Jon, I have decided not to let this slip through after all :-) > ... HH > > What the mind gets fed, gets regurgitated. Round and round it goes. > > I notice such a difference between when I wasn't active on the list > > and now. Now throughout the day I find myself drafting replies here, > > mentally raising points there, or just thinking about what someone > > wrote. While during my absence, there was none of that. === J > Right, there was none of that particular kind of reflecting (namely, reflecting on > matters being discussed on the list); but there would have been thinking about other > matters, since that is the nature of the mind. Even the arahant continues to think, > but without akusala. === H > The major issue I have with the possible implications of the above (there is no suggestion that you have implied them) is that the mind is posited as a thing with its own nature. I accept that it is very difficult or impossible to make very precise statements that are also short. I would just like to make some brief counterpoints. Thinking (reflexive mind) is unique to humans. Thinking is conditioned. Language is a condition for thinking. Language is conditioned. Society is a condition for language as language is a condition for society. This is borne out by the fact that people not exposed to or removed from society loose their capacity for speech/thinking. The holy life is lived under the Blessed One for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging. Secular society is a mass of clinging that teaches/learns clinging by way of discursive thinking. The holy life of the Blessed One is the antithesis of secular society. This is of necessity, because discursive thinking militates against the most basic development of mind. The fruits of the holy life are not harvested in thinking conditioned by a social setting. My discursive thoughts only, now back to some silence Kind Regards Herman > > > With the natural arising of seeing that there is the ongoing and > > avid adding or mending of a brick, or a wall, or a storey (story) to > > the mental house-of-cards, and seeing the disadvantage of that > > activity, there will be a natural withdrawal from that. > > On my reading of the teachings, there is no disadvantage in thinking per se, and > particularly in thinking that is kusala; the insight that leads to the eventual breaking > down of that wall depends on kusala thinking of a particular kind for its development > (I'm not of course saying that the thinking and the insight are the same). There are > plenty of suttas that talk about hearing the dhamma, considering what has been > heard and gaining a reflective acceptance of what has thus been understood, as part > of the chain of conditions that culminate in enlightenment. > > Now as I understand matters, the thinking you are talking about here, i.e., thinking > about points that have arisen for discussion on the list, is likely to include this very > kind of kusala thinking. We should value it! No need to have as one's aim > withdrawing from this kind of thinking. > > Jon > > [A similar post was sent previously but does not seem to have showed up on the list. > Apologies for any duplication that may occur.] 40352 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi All, Dear James, you posed an interesting question, it is as follows: "... the Buddha would sometimes teach the dhamma in terms of various gods who were thought to move the sun and moon across the sky and gods who made it rain. One could accurately assume that sotapannas were in the audience at those times. ... Did the sotapannas have a *belief* in what the Buddha was saying about those gods? If so, was that belief a `wrong view'?" There are two points I want to make to answer these questions: (1) Indian mythology was used by most teachers in India, even by those that did not believe the gods were real, to explain history and the facts of life. Every culture in the world has taken this approach, especially when it comes to teaching children. Myths often use symbolism and allegory as nice stories and fables to educate. (2) The wrong view would be to believe that these gods could free you from suffering; to believe in their existence is not a wrong view. Charles DaCosta ----- Original Message ----- From: buddhatrue <....> Friend Howard, According to my reading of the suttas, the Buddha would sometimes teach the dhamma in terms of various gods who were thought to move the sun and moon across the sky and gods who made it rain. One could accurately assume that sotapannas were in the audience at those times. What do you think: Did the sotapannas have a *belief* in what the Buddha was saying about those gods? If so, was that belief a `wrong view'? <....> 40353 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 8:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (196) Larry I understand ----- Original Message ----- From: LBIDD@w... <..> Hi Charles (and Nina), I have nothing useful to add but wanted to say "hi" and welcome you aboard. You have an interesting perspective but I would like to pick up on it a little more before making a comment. Larry 40354 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:07pm Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > >In a message dated 12/25/04 9:16:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, >dsgmods@y... writes: > > >... > >Howard: > I understand an assertion that whenever conditions of types A, B, C, >and D arise, also a condition of type E arises or will arise. The question is >whether a true assertion of such a sort is claiming the existence of a type of >relation. If so, there then arises the question of exactly what sort of >phenomenon a relation is. > My original statement was: Dhammas are related to each other in multiple ways. These relations are termed 'conditions' (Pali: paccaya). To give an example, the present moment of the seeing consciousness is said to be conditioned (a) by a previous moment of cetana by way of kamma condition, and also (b) by its object (visible object) by way of object condition. I do not see that this need give rise to any idea of 'existence'. This introduces an unnecessary complication. Relationships are properties that hold between things. There is no question of there being any phenomena (dhamma) other than the 3 already mentioned (seeing consciousness, cetana, visible object). >One answer is that there are no such phenomena as >relations. That they are concept-only, and to speak of relations is to engage in >mewrely conventional speech. This seems to be the approach that Sarah is taking, >and I'm increasingly persuaded that that is correct. > > It seems to me that the relationships that pertain between dhammas are no more conceptual than are the individual characteristics of those dhammas. A characteristic of a dhamma is not itself a dhamma, but neither is it a concept. The same goes for relationships, I suppose. >Howard: > My point was the following: If characteristics and conditions exist >but they are neither pa~n~natti nor (paramattha) dhammas, then they fall into a >new category! > > As above, I think the introduction of the concept of 'existence' is an unnecessary complication here. As far as I know, characteristics and conditions are not said to 'exist'. To my way of thinking, they pertain to or between dhammas. Jon 40355 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Friend Charles, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > (2) The wrong view would be to believe that these gods could free you from suffering; to believe in their existence is not a wrong view. Why? > > Charles DaCosta Metta, James 40356 From: m. nease Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: For Nina: 20 Jan 02's Bay Area Study Topics Hi Phil and Nina, Here's another, Phil: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-049.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nina van Gorkom" Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, Ch 5 (Rohitassa), § 9. other notation: II, 51). Four Perversions. Path of Discrimination, Kuddhaka Nikaya, Ch 8 (p. 277), and Co I have in Thai. Nina. op 29-12-2004 02:17 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > p.s I noticed that there is no mention of vipallasa in either of my > sutta anthologies. 40357 From: m. nease Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 3:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi Charles, Excellent points IMHO, particularly (2). As I see it micchaadi.t.thi has a very specific meaning in the texts and does not refer simply to incorrect ideas in general. By the way, I think micchaadi.t.thi can be either paramattha dhamma or pa.n.natti. I'd welcome any comments on this idea. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles DaCosta" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. > (1) Indian mythology was used by most teachers in India, even by those > that did not believe the gods were real, to explain history and the facts > of life. Every culture in the world has taken this approach, especially > when it comes to teaching children. Myths often use symbolism and allegory > as nice stories and fables to educate. > > (2) The wrong view would be to believe that these gods could free you from > suffering; to believe in their existence is not a wrong view. 40358 From: Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:08am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/29/04 5:13:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > upasaka@a... wrote: > > >Hi, Jon - > > > >In a message dated 12/25/04 9:16:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, > >dsgmods@y... writes: > > > > > >... > > > >Howard: > > I understand an assertion that whenever conditions of types A, B, C, > >and D arise, also a condition of type E arises or will arise. The question > is > >whether a true assertion of such a sort is claiming the existence of a type > of > >relation. If so, there then arises the question of exactly what sort of > >phenomenon a relation is. > > > > My original statement was: > > Dhammas are related to each other in multiple ways. These relations are > termed 'conditions' (Pali: paccaya). > > > To give an example, the present moment of the seeing consciousness is > said to be conditioned (a) by a previous moment of cetana by way of > kamma condition, and also (b) by its object (visible object) by way of > object condition. > > I do not see that this need give rise to any idea of 'existence'. This > introduces an unnecessary complication. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: So far I agree with you. There are no events or phenomena called relations or properties. To speak of them is just a way of speaking. To *believe* in them as existing is an unnecessary reification. -------------------------------------- Relationships are properties > > that hold between things. ------------------------------------- Howard: Not quite. If a relation is a property, then it doesn't hold *between* things - it holds *of* things.Properties hold *of* things. If a relation holds among A, B, C, D, and E, and we want to think of that relation as a kind of *property*, it would be a property that holds of the 5-tuple (A, B, C, D, E). That is the approach that mathematicians take. But, you see, that requires already positing tuples as things. So one gets into concept upon concept upon concept. I think that properties, relations, tuples, and collections are all concept-only. They do give understanding about the way things are, but they are mental constructs - all of them. ------------------------------------------ > There is no question of there being any > phenomena (dhamma) other than the 3 already mentioned (seeing > consciousness, cetana, visible object). > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, I think that is correct. And then, also realizing, fully, that no dhammas are self-existent, the entire experiential edifice is seen to be a house of fragile glass cards that with the final enlightenment that is the end of the card game comes crashing, shatteringly, down. ------------------------------------------ > > >One answer is that there are no such phenomena as > >relations. That they are concept-only, and to speak of relations is to > engage in > >mewrely conventional speech. This seems to be the approach that Sarah is > taking, > >and I'm increasingly persuaded that that is correct. > > > > > > It seems to me that the relationships that pertain between dhammas are > no more conceptual than are the individual characteristics of those > dhammas. > ------------------------------------ Howard: That's quite so. They are all concept-only. ------------------------------------ A characteristic of a dhamma is not itself a dhamma, but > > neither is it a concept. The same goes for relationships, I suppose. ---------------------------------- Howard: If not a dhamma and not a concept, then what? That's all there is, Jon. ----------------------------------- > > >Howard: > > My point was the following: If characteristics and conditions exist > >but they are neither pa~n~natti nor (paramattha) dhammas, then they fall > into a > >new category! > > > > > > As above, I think the introduction of the concept of 'existence' is an > unnecessary complication here. As far as I know, characteristics and > conditions are not said to 'exist'. To my way of thinking, they pertain > to or between dhammas. > --------------------------------------- Howard: They don't exist. That's right. But what does not exist does not pertain to anything. As I see it, you are trying to eat your cake and still have it, Jon. ;-) I understand very well your doing that. The impulse to do so is nearly irresistable. I feel it too - very strongly. It is SO hard to truly let go, to drop all attachment to the existence of things that we hold onto to them at the same time we push them away. I can't manage the letting go that is required - not yet, not even close. I remember the one time at a retreat that I lost all sense of self for a while. It was GONE, and I knew it was unreal, and yet I desperately searched all over until I got it back. We are like prisoners who really love our cells, even as we seem to hate them and claim to want a jailbreak! ;-)) ---------------------------------------------- > > Jon > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40359 From: Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] What is time ? Hi Icaro and Joop, I am afraid I do not agree with you fellows that there is some kind of time in nibbana dhatu. This seems impossible to me. Following a meandering reasoning I came to the conclusion that time is the reality of the 5 khandhas. If there is time in nibbana then nibbana is impermanent. What's the point of that? I can see arguing that there is no real time or anything else in the 5 khandhas precisely because they are conditionally arising. In this sense we could say the khandhas are timeless and therefore nibbana because they both, khandha and nibbana, are anatta. We could also say that nibbana is conditioned by the khandhas insofar as it is the cessation of the khandhas. But this is just a way of undermining the clinging to the concept of nibbana. Once you have experienced the irrevocable cessation of a latent tendency (anusaya) where is the time in that cessation? What time is it in nibbana? Not even "the present". Time doesn't apply. Icaro, I would be interested to see what exactly you are referring to below: I: "Buddhaghosa, in Vis. Chapt. IX ( I am quoting it by memory, but I can give to you all at DSG the right paragraphs later), that the Octuple Noble Path IS the Own Nibbana." Larry 40360 From: Andrew Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Things the Tathagata has not declared & Sariputta's Answer Hi Sarah Thank you for your post. The Christmas holidays are our "rush hour" with cats galore and visitors so I have only had a chance to skim DSG occasionally. If I remember correctly, the post about what the Tathagata has not declared was sent when the ontology issue raised by Rob M was being discussed and needs to be assessed in that context ie if ontology was irrelevant to the Dhamma, why didn't the Buddha declare as he did in the sutta I quoted? That thread has long since gone dormant - from your later comments, I gather that further analysis of the commentaries would be required to get to the bottom of it. Re the omana question, it struck me as strange when reading it. Perhaps as you postulate, it may just be a stock phrase (but not one I have come across before). Our best wishes & support to all those affected by the tsunami disaster. Bye for now Andrew T --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew T, (Nina, Suan & All) > > "Why does Sariputta stress the abandonment of self-contempt or inferiority > conceit..? 40361 From: Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:22pm Subject: Re: clinging to self with conceit. . . Dear Icaro, You probably don't know me because I rarely write in, and I read the posts in the form of digests rather infrequently. However, I was intrigued by the wonderful example you gave of clinging to self with conceit: your outburst against all things Russian. As soon as a comparison is made, in this case the statement that Russians are accursed, with the implication that "we" are not Russian nor accursed, is conceit, and is akusala, pure and simple. Note too that words (quote: . . .all Russian words are akusala. . .) are only concepts created from sound as the object of a mind door process following a sense door process where that particular sound was also the object. Though sound can be kusala vipaka or akusala vipaka, that depends on the accumulations and conditions arising at the time for a particular "person". Once sound is recognized as words, seeminly instantaneously, it is in the realm of concept and an "object" of clinging. This is one of the wonderful things about the study of abhidhamma: it helps us to "see", through deep thought and contemplation, how all of that which we take for "self" is merely the interaction of various phenomena because of conditions. There is nothing for "us" to attach to because there is no "us", nor are there "things" because these are only concepts created by the mind. This thought, when it arises, is a great aid to realizing, and then, letting go of "our" defilements, i.e., those things "we" are attached to (including that which we don't like since we are also "attached" to getting away from what "we" don't like). So, when anything under the concept "Russian" is interpreted in "your" mind door processes, if the thought arises that it is only a concept, not self, (not permanent and dukkha, too) you will see how quickly the akusala will abate as well. Lord Buddha asked us to "check it out" (ehipasiko) for ourselves and see if it is not true. metta, Betty ---------------------- > Dear Nina: We ought not to mix planes here. We use English and Pali together because the circunstances here got this course of events, and not, for example Pali and Russian(accursed language and accursed people! From the Oder to Kamchatka, death to all russians!) or Pali and Bahasya Indonesia (and its muslins and tsunamis).... Mettaya, Ícaro 40362 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:20pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 87 - Volition/cetanaa (q) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** There is no self who can force citta to be kusala citta, but conditions can be cultivated so that kusala citta can arise more often. Important conditions for the arising of kusala citta with paññå are friendship with a person who has right understanding of the Dhamma and who can explain the Dhamma in the right way, listening to the teachings and studying them, and above all mindfulness of the reality which appears now. We should consider why we want to perform kusala kamma. Is our aim kusala vipåka? Kusala kamma produces kusala vipåka because this is the natural course of things, but if we want to perform kusala kamma in order to have a pleasant result, such as a happy rebirth, there is clinging. The aim of the Buddha’s teachings is the eradication of defilements. Wholesome deeds will be purer if we perform them because we see the benefit of eliminating defilements. Since human life is very short we should not lose any opportunity for dåna, síla or bhåvanå. If we develop the eightfold Path there will eventually be purification of all defilements. ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa) to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40363 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 29, 2004 11:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Friend Mike, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Charles, > > Excellent points IMHO, particularly (2). As I see it micchaadi.t.thi has a > very specific meaning in the texts and does not refer simply to incorrect > ideas in general. What is the very specific meaning in the texts? You see, I have already shown where the Buddha gave a relative explanation of the wrong views eliminated by the sotapanna, and he said that the views based on a wrong belief in self are eliminated. Then the commentaries state that ALL wrong views are eliminated by the sotapanna; now, to me *all* means all. What else could `all' mean? If the commentaries state that all wrong views are eliminated then in order to be correct, every single solitary wrong view would have to be eliminated. Remember, Buddhism isn't just a philosophy; it is about life, all of reality. What is taught must apply to all of reality. Anyway, I am not tenaciously holding onto this view of mine; I could easily drop it if either you or Charles would provide a logical explanation and not just statements. > > By the way, I think micchaadi.t.thi can be either paramattha dhamma or > pa.n.natti. I'd welcome any comments on this idea. Well, it would depend on if the cittas in question simply have an incorrect object or if they arise due to the latent tendencies and/or root conditions. Then again, I don't believe either one of these categories really mean anything. (six of one, half dozen of another) ;-)) > > mike Metta, James 40364 From: Egbert Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 0:15am Subject: Re: 'Absolute' (was, False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities) Hi John, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Herman > > Egbert wrote: > > >>All dhammas of a particular kind are said to exhibit the same > >> > >> > >esesntial characteristic whenever they arise (and this phenomenon in > >fact defines what a dhamma is). > > > > > >H : > >Sameness is a relation between two distinct, separate dhammas > >(things). The critical thing about relations is that their > >characteristic does not inhere in the things they relate. Relations > >inhere in a third-party observation. > > > >For example, it is not a characteristic of the sun that it is bigger > >than the moon. That would be a relation abstracted from a certain > >external viewpoint, while from another viewpoint the relation the > >moon is bigger than the sun may well obtain. > > > > > > I agree with all you say here but do not see it as having any > application to the kind of relations being discussed. Would you not > agree that the gravitational pull between the sun and its planets > inheres in the sun? ==== H> The whole idea of force and action at a distance, of which gravity is an example, is to me a highly theoretical area and I would prefer to avoid answering that specific question :-) My point was simply that comparisons are a relation that are based on at least three components, and that the relation cannot be deduced from any one or even two of the components on their own. ==== > > >To say that hearing is the same now as previously or elsewhere is > >also a relation, which characteristic does not inhere in hearing. > > > > > > The assertion being made is that each dhamma has a characteristic that > is unique to that particular class of dhamma. Another way of saying > that is that the unique characteristic of dhammas of the same class is > the same. If you are saying that because sameness is a relative concept > (which of course I agree is so) dhammas cannot be 'absolute', then I'm > afraid I do not see the force of that reasoning. ===== H> I think we agree that identity is a comparitive relation. "A=A" seems pretty straightforward, but it hasn't always been so. Without the formal logic put forward by Aristotle, statements of identity are pretty flimsy. The division of dhammas into classes is certainly possible. The number of classes into which dhammas can be divided is limited only by imagination. This classification is not an experiential process, it is very much an after-the-fact, thinking only, artifice. When attributing membership of dhammas to certain classes I do not think it is possible to avoid the same difficulties as one encounters when attempting to pigeonhole the Tathagata. Is it the same Tathagata that wakes in the morning as the one who went to sleep the night before? Is it the same dhamma now as a previous occasion? The whole point about avoiding such classifications is the wrong views that lurk on all sides. "A=A" does not apply in Buddhism. Given the three characteristics, perhaps at best (but still doubtful) we can say "A was". I agree with you that experience is absolute, but precisely because of that, a classification system is a complete denial of that absoluteness. I see no neccesity in classifying, but certainly a need to see that classification is happening. ======= > > >So I think the key word in your explanatory sentence above sentence > >is "said" as in "are said to exhibit". > > > >That it is said is beyond doubt. That it is a problem, for me, is > >also beyond doubt. Relations are established by evaluation and > >comparison. And many hold that there is salvatory value in coming to > >know the characteristics of dhammas, which include, their > >relationship of sameness. > > > > > We should not confuse characteristic(s) with relations. The two are > different. Characteristics are known first, as I understand it. For > example, nama dhammas are known as nama dhammas, and rupa dhammas as > rupa dhammas. Knowledge of the conditioning factors that hold between > dhammas is a much more advanced level of understanding (of course I am > just parroting here). ===== H> As Howard and I discussed before (not implying that Howard agrees with me BTW :-)) the experience is the knowing. It is an absolute event. Nothing else happens. Any knowing after that is a ?elective apprehension of a selected past. It is story-telling. I do not agree that what is later called eg sound has a characteristic of belonging to any classification or group. Classification is completely arbitrary. The "classes" have no existence. Just like the khandas, they are just explanatory devices. The following two quotes are from Nyanatiloka on "Khandas" "The fact ought to be emphasized here that these 5 groups, correctly speaking, merely form an abstract classification by the Buddha, but that they as such, i.e. as just these 5 complete groups, have no real existence, since only single representatives of these groups, mostly variable, can arise with any state of consciousness" "Some writers on Buddhism who have not understood that the five khandha are just classificatory groupings, have conceived them as compact entities ('heaps', 'bundles'), while actually, as stated above, the groups never exist as such, i.e. they never occur in a simultaneous totality of all their constituents. Also those single constituents of a group which are present in any given body- and - mind process, are of an evanescent nature, and so also their varying combinations. Feeling, perception and mental formations are only different aspects and functions of a single unit of consciousness. They are to consciousness what redness, softness, sweetness, etc. are to an apple and have as little separate existence as those qualities." > > >Relations are, as I explained, established by third-party > >observation. Thus, of necessity, the knowledge of relationships is > >always brought about by imposition of a selective subject-object > >framework on what is experienced. > > > > > > I hope I have explained why not all relationships can be so characterised. ===== H > I hope we are not discussing at cross purposes here :-) ==== > > >As opposed to Nibbana, which is non-relational, non-comparitive, non- > >evaluative. I am sure that we agree that the Buddha taught Nibbana > >as salvation. I just cannot reconcile the later teachings of the > >necessity to come to know the inherent and relational > >characteristics of dhammas with Nibbana or a path to it. > > > > > > I would be interested to hear what your idea of the development of > awareness or understanding at the present moment is, if it has nothing > to do with the arising dhammas of that moment ;-)). ======== H> I tend to think of mental development as a natural deconstructive process. Rather than building at a superstructure of layer upon layer of non-existent classifications, I see value in becoming aware of how even what seems to be bare awareness is also formed of mistaking non-existent classifications for something that actually happened. > > >The absolute is. Full stop. That's just it. That's all there is. It > >ceases to be that the moment it is related or disected or known in > >any way. > > > >Just a little quote from the Paramatthaka Sutta, SN IV,5 > > > >"Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up > >(another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those > >who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not > >[have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to > >either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another > >existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on > >investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the > >seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. > >That brahmana who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be > >identified in the world? " > > > > > > A good quote. I'd like to know what the original term here translated > as 'view' is. I do not believe the Buddha taught a path of refraining > from having a view about anything. That would not be consistent with > the teaching on conditioned dhammas and 'not-self', as I understand that > teaching. ==== H > Perhaps someone in the know could help out with the Pali ? I think what the Buddha taught Bahiya does not need to be improved upon. 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya. "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering." Now through this brief Dhamma teaching of the Lord the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was immediately freed from the taints without grasping. ' Thanks and Kind Regards Herman > > Jon 40365 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections (was: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau) Hi Mike, You raised many helpful points for me to consider more. I'll consider the discussion on the nature of universal cetasikas such as vedana (feeling) here. --- "m. nease" wrote: S:> >...Surely, when the universals such as phassa and vedana arise with > akusala > > cittas, they are akusala and their qualities are inherently different > from > > those arising with sobhana cittas? > M:> I don't think so--they are 'known by the company they keep' I think, > that is > they are designated akusala or sobha.na depending on the various > conditions > (hetu etc.) and on the other cetasikas that arise with them--unless I'm > simply wrong, of course. …. S: First of all by ‘jaati’ (classes), cittas as we both know can be kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya, the cetasikas being of the same jaati as the citta they arise with, not just by name but by kind too. Furthermore, the citta and accompanying cetasikas all condition each other. The quality of the pleasant feeling accompanying kusala cittas is different from that accompanying akusala cittas and so on. In Narada’s Under sahajata paccaya (conascence condition) in ’Guide to Conditional Relations’ p24 it refers to how the feeling aggregate conditions the remaining 3 mental aggregates and so on for the other mental aggregates. They all affect each other in many different combinations. In Nina’s ‘Conditions’, under conascence condition (sahajata paccaya) and mutuality condition (annamanna paccaya), she writes: “Lobha-muula-citta has as roots moha and lobha, and these roots condition the accompanying dhammas by way of conascence-condition and also by way of root-condition. Phenomena can condition other phenomena by way of several relations. Lobha-mula-citta may be accompanied by pleasant feeling. Feeling is conditioned by citta and the accompanying cetasikas, and when it accompanies akusala citta it is also akusala. Pleasant feeling which is akusala has a characteristic which is quite different from pleasant feeling which is kusala.” A little later, she writes: “Citta and cetasikas can be of four ‘jaatis’ (classes), they can be kusala, akusala, vipaka or kiriya. Some cetasikas can accompany cittas of four jaatis, but in each case they are completely different since they are conditioned by the citta and the other cetasikas they accompany. Manasikaara, attention, for example, is a cetasika which arises with each citta, but it is quite different when it accompanies lobha-mula-citta which clings to the object which is experienced, or when it accompanies kusala citta which is intent on generosity or on the observance of siila. Viriya, energy or effort, can be energy exerted in an unwholesome way, such as effort to steal, or it can be energy for what is wholesome. Thus there is a great variety of citta and cetasikas which mutually support one another….” ***** There are also many references I could add from the Atthasaalinii (transl as the Expositor, PTS). Just a couple of brief ones: From Triplets in the Maatikaa: ”In the triplet of ‘Corrupt [kilesa] and corrupting,’ ‘corrupting’ means ‘that which corrupts’ (i.e. oppresses or torments a being). ‘Corrupt’ means ‘arisen or occurring together with the corruptions.’ ….” From ‘Analysis of Terms’: “ ‘Accompanied by joy’: this means ‘gone into the state of a common origin with joy, in the sense of enjoying pleasure like honey.’ This word ‘accompanied’ (sahagata) has the meanings of ‘corresponding nature,’ ‘mingled’, ‘dependence,’ ‘object,’ ‘associated with,’ ‘this craving produces repeated births and is accompanied by passionate delight [Siii 158] – here sahagata means ‘of corresponding nature.’ The meaning is that craving has become passionate delight.” ***** > Don't all 'actually' kusala and akusala kammas occur in javana > processes? > While attending any of these, it seems to me that vedanaa and phassa > always > have exactly the same function, to feel and to contact. … S: Yes. They always have these same functions, but each feeling or contact or attention is different in degree and kind according to the citta and other cetasikas they arise with. In SN 36:22 (2) we read about the six types of joy based on the household life and the six types base on renunciation and then about the i08 feelings. Of course, feeling at each moment is quite different and distinct, even though it has the common function you refer to. … >When attending > vipakka, they, like the vipakka, seem to me to be called 'akusala' or > 'kusala' only as a designation, like 'akusala vipakka'. In other words, > > isn't the vipakka actually avyaakata and called kusala or akusala based > only > on the kamma of which it is the result? … S: Yes, this is quite different from the kusala and akusala qualities in the javana cittas. …. > I think the experience 'feels' different--but not because sukha vedanaa > is > itself different, but rather because it is attended by different > cetasikas > (like lobha 'sticking like meat in a hot pan' e.g.). … S: Both as I understand. In the end, the proof will only be in the ‘tasting’ or awareness of that ‘tasting’. Does the pleasant feeling accompanying lobha seem the same to you as that accompanying generosity or abstention from unwholesome speech or understanding, for example? When it’s accompanied by lobha and restlessness, I think it’s quite different from that accompanied by calm and without lobha, though I agree that it’s very easy to be fooled and take more subtle attachments and unwholesome pleasant feeling for calm and wholesome feeling. Only the development of sati and panna can really tell. Thank you for helping me to consider further. Useful points for discussion I think. Metta, Sarah ====== 40366 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections (was: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: ->Kenhowardau) Hi Mike, A little more on the accumulations and sankhaa parts of your post: --- "m. nease" wrote: > 'Carried'--really! Is this consistent with the Paali texts? (Silly > question, probably...) ... S: ;-). I should have stuck to ‘accumulated’ or ‘conveyed’ perhaps which Charles gave. I liked his analogy of gossip (#40292). At the back of my mind I had in mind that you'd once objected to the frequent use of 'accumulated', but that's the last time I try going off the beaten path;-). .... S:> > For example, > > when greed accumulates, there is also the tendency to have a certain > kind > > of pleasant feeling on account of certain objects > M:> I can see that pleasant feeling differs in terms of pleasant tastes, > smells, > thoughts etc., that is that the experience partakes of pleasant feeling > together with a particular door, base, object etc.--but it still seems > to me > that it's the overall experience that differs and not its individual > components. .... S: Both, I think. The overall being made up of the individual... ... M:> Isn't pa.ticcasamuppaada operant at a kha.nika level? This is another > old > opinion of mine, that sankhaara and the other links are not > once-in-a-lifetime occurrences but occur with every single contact etc., > in > other words truly countless times every day. .... S: Well, momentary like now, but only cetana or kamma now that is of the degree of being able to bring results of this degree is included in this link (not once in a lifetime occurrences by any means, but any moments of kamma-patha). This is abhisankhara ..... M:>If it's a bad one, guess > it's > time I got over it...some Paali texts would help if this notion does > want > debunking... …. S:I’m not sure this will do the trick, but from Nyantiloka’s dictionary under sankhara "1. As the 2nd link of the formula of dependent origination, (paticcasamuppáda), sankhára has the active aspect, 'forming, and signifies karma, i.e. wholesome or unwholesome volitional activity (cetaná) of body (káya-s.), speech (vací-s.) or mind (citta- or mano-s.). This definition occurs, e.g. at S.XII.2, 27. For s. in this sense, the word 'karma-formation' has been coined by the author. In other passages, in the same context, s. is defined by reference to • (a) meritorious karma-formations (puññ'ábhisankhára), • (b) demeritorious k. (apuññ'abhisankhára), • (c) imperturbable k. (áneñj'ábhisankhára), e.g. in S.XII.51; D.33. This threefold division covers karmic activity in all spheres of existence: the meritorious karma-formations extend to the sensuous and the fine-material sphere, the demeritorious ones only to the sensuous sphere, and the 'imperturbable' only to the immaterial sphere." ***** S: When I’ve discussed it further with K.Sujin, she’s stressed that in D.O. the abhisankhara only refers to kamma patha with all factors present capable of bringing results in another life rebirth consciousness. Yes, it’s momentary, like all other cittas. As I said, Sammohavinodani gives lots more detail too. I think I’ve responded to most the points. You asked for a couple of references to support my comments in other threads, but I think Nina has given some useful ones. Pls let me know if there were others. Metta, Sarah p.s I looked in the Vibhanga (Book of Analysis) which Nina mentioned for the Abhid reference for the kinds of attachment. I didn't find the same phrase we were discussing that is explained in the commentaries ('This is mine' etc) but what I found quickly is from ‘Analysis of Small Items’ 919f which gives details about kinds of tanha. Under ‘three types of seeking’ – seeking pleasure, becoming and supreme practice (Pali not handy) and then ‘three types of conceitedness’ etc. Under ‘seeking supreme practice’ it has: “Extremist view and the bad bodily action, verbal action and mental action occurring therewith…..” Also 816 ‘Latent tendency of beings’ “The seven latent tendencies are: Latent tendency to sensuous lust…repulsion…conceit…wrong view….doubt …lust for existence…ignorance… That which in the world is an unlovely thing, unpleasant thing, the tendency of bengs to repulsion for that lies latent. Thus in these two states it should be understood that ignorance continuously occurs, and coupled therewith, conceit, wrong view and doubt. This is the latent tendency of beings.” ====== 40367 From: AlanLam Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:33am Subject: Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Alan > > Actually I was not saying about your mail, rather what Ven B Bodhi > said in this article he wrote which I like to discuss with Sarah. To > me what he write shows an impressive intellectual logical reasoning > yet this type of reasoning have many flaws that are not consistent > with the whole nikayas (dont even need to involve abhidhamma or > commentary to argue that his article has serious flaws), just by > showing nikayas I can counter discuss his article for the flaws. > There are two basis of serious flaws in his article first the > assertation that the jhanas experiene in the culmination of > enlightment are not supramundane and the second taking jhanas as the > de facto right concentration as said in the 8NP using DN 22 as a > basis. Others are like not taking seriously when at some sutta there > is support for one to be enlighted even after coming out of 1st > jhanas as what you wrote below (his assertation that one can only > become arahat only through the practise of four jhanas), he also > forget that one can also become enlighted after the arupa jhanas > also. Why should there be after fourth then can one be an Arahant, > which is show in the nikayas not a de facto condition. > > > What I am saying here in my previous response, is to CHANGE TRACK > > once, after having achieved Jhaana to Vipassana. Here one need not > > have to achieve 2nd, 3rd or 4th Jhaana, but with either Access or > > Entering Concentration or with 1st Jhaana. > > k: Yes there are sutta support that about coming out of 1st Jhana > one can be totally be enlighted. > > > Ven. Mahasi taught the excellent way using "Access and or Entering > > Concentration", with just enough power to be mindful of the arising > > and dissolution of the 6-fold sense objects or the 5 objects of > > craving. > Hi Ken, > k: Sorry I do not need to sit down one corner to observe the six > fold sense objects, every moment is a practise if one can see the > three characteristics to all cittas, regardless kusala or akusala > ***Here I do agree only when you are performing the 8-fold path only, that every moment is a practise, mindfulness all the time. 100% I concur with you. ***However, one still needs to sit down one corner to contemplate the 6-fold sense objects or the 5 Objects of craving, after having achieved stillness of breath, its arising and dissolution. This is Vipassana. Only through this that one's insights or wisdom arises. This is what is mentioned in Sathipattana Sutta. > > When one's breath is very, very still and subtle, one's mind will > > be very mindfully alert and sharp. This is the right moment to > then mindfull of all the arising and or dissolution of the Dharma > factors. > > k: How do one guage ones breath very subtle, I am not trying to be > sarcastic but we have to be clear what do you mean by subtle. A baby > sleeping peacefully can also have subtle breath. > **** Yes, a baby's breath can be subtle too. But there's no mindfullness in the sleeping baby. He is either in deep sleep or in dream. Whereas, when one's breath is very subtle in meditation, one's mindfullness is very alert and highly conscious of the object of contemplation. Subtleness in breath means it is very still, very soft, and one's heart-beat will be slowed down tremendously from 72 beats per seconds to, may be, 30+ to 40+ depending on one's command of one- pointedness concentration. Metta. Alan. <...> 40369 From: Ken O Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Letter to B.Bodhi-'The Jhânas and the Lay Disciple ..' Hi Alan > > ***However, one still needs to sit down one corner to contemplate > the 6-fold sense objects or the 5 Objects of craving, after having > achieved stillness of breath, its arising and dissolution. This is > Vipassana. Only through this that one's insights or wisdom arises. This is what is mentioned in Sathipattana Sutta. k: Personally I think a lot of people misunderstand that Vipassana can only develop during meditation. Vipassana in simple terms is understanding of the three characteristics, as I said when there is sati-sampajanna, there is Vipassana. When an object arise in the six doors, if there is sati-sampajanna, there is Vipassana. > Whereas, when one's breath is very subtle in meditation, one's > mindfullness is very alert and highly conscious of the object of > contemplation. Subtleness in breath means it is very still, very > soft, and one's heart-beat will be slowed down tremendously from 72 beats per seconds to, may be, 30+ to 40+ depending on one's command of one- pointedness concentration. k: Why there is a need to obtain subtle breathing? Bhavana is not about achieving a certain mental concentration, it is about development of the mind. Hence another misunderstood word, bhavana. A lot of translator take this as meditation. To me, it is mental development. Ken O 40370 From: dsgmods Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:45am Subject: #40368 from Icaro All, If you received this last message from Icaro in your in box or digest, please ignore it. We consider it very offensive and inappropriate for DSG. It has been deleted from the archives. Jon & Sarah 40371 From: Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 0:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. . . Hi, Icaro - In a message dated 12/30/04 6:51:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > It´s not only Akusala but I don´t give it a buck anyway!!! > All Russians deserve to die! Without exceptions! From the Oder to > Kamchatka, from New Zemlya to Bokhara, Death to all Russians!!!! > And that people fool enough to work for Russian > Maffia...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! After all the globetrotting > tourism (they couldn´t be allowed to travel outside Russia without > the holy blessings of the usual Russian Capo Maffiosi), all the > meeting with interesting people and so on, there are six entire > planes of Hell waiting for them!!!!! > ======================= Perhaps you are in a manic joking mood, in which case you might be useful, I believe, for you to realize that you are being misperceived as not joking, and that the "joke" is too raw to be amusing. On the other hand, if due to personal experiences you are quite serious, you might want to consider some samatha meditation to "take the edge off" a bit. ;-) Just some thoughts from an idle but interested observer. I hope all is well, and I wish you all the best for 2005. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40372 From: Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. . . Hi, all - In a message dated 12/30/04 8:51:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Perhaps you are in a manic joking mood, in which case you [This should be > "it", not "you"] might be useful, I believe, for you to realize that you are > being misperceived as not joking, and that the "joke" is too raw to be > amusing. On the other hand, if due to personal experiences you are quite serious, > you might want to consider some samatha meditation to "take the edge off" a > bit. ;-) Just some thoughts from an idle but interested observer. > I hope all is well, and I wish you all the best for 2005. > > With metta, > Howard > ======================= I wrote & mailed this before reading the moderator message. I'm sorry that it appeared on the list, because I included in it some quoted material that would better have been unrepeated. I have skipped that material in this post, and I would heartily approve of the moderators expunging from the archives my reply that included the quoted material should they wish. (I approve expunging this message as well should they wish.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40373 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:44am Subject: Dhamma Thread (210) Dear Dhamma Friends, Arising of citta [consciousness] and cetasikas [mental factors] along with rupas [materials] is called 'pavatti'[arising]. There are 2 kinds of pavatti [arising] or 2 kinds of arising of these dhammas. They are vithi-pavatti and vithi-mutta-pavatti. Vithi as explained in the Dhamma Thread (209) means 'serial'. This seriality is in an exact order for a given road or given path or given way or given track. As cittas are being talked then we may assume 'vithi' here as 'an exact order of arising of cittas in a mind track'. The arising of these vithi cittas [processing consciousness] that is 'cittas in any vithi' is called vithi-pavatti [arising of processing consciousness]. All arising of citta is pavatti. Pavatti means 'arising'. When this arising is when in vithi varas [turns of arising of exact orders of cittas] the pavatti is called vithi-pavatti or arising of vithi cittas. Another pavatti is vithi-mutta-pavatti. Mutta means 'free'. So these is no vithi or free of vithi or free of processing of consciousness. So there is no order of arising of different cittas. But only one kind of citta that is bhavanga citta [if initial in a life it becomes patisandhin citta and if final in a life it becomes cuti citta_otherwise the only citta arise is bhavanga citta and there is no ther citta and no other kinds of citta]. If one bhavanga citta passes away then another bhavanga citta has to arise in its place as long as there are kamma. As this happen as long as there is no vithi vara it is like a flow of bhavanga citta like a river. As there is no order of arising of cittas these cittas are vithi-mutta cittas and their arising [arising of these bhavanga cittas] is called vithi-mutta-pavatti. Even though these 19 bhavanga cittas are dhammas those who could not see rightly view them as such is such being and such are such beings and so on. Depending on patisandhi cittas there are 31 different realms or 31 planes of existence. These will be discussed later. When in process or when in vithi varas, cittas may be of pancadvara vithi vara or manodvara vithi vara. In pancadvara vithi vara there are 5 different kinds of vithi varas. They are 1. cakkhudvara vithi vara or cakkhuvinnana vithi vara 2. sotadvara vithi vara or sotavinnana vithi vara 3. ghanadvara vithi vara or ghanavinnana vithi vara 4. jivhadvara vithi vara or jivhavinnana vithi vara 5. kayadvara vithi vara or kayavinnana vithi vara The cittas of these vithi varas take panca-arammana or 5-sense-object. Depending on arammana or object that causing vithi cittas there are 6 different kinds of object in terms of 'arising of object' or 'visaya- pavatti'. Visaya means 'object where cittas enjoy'. These 6 visaya-pavatti or arising of object are 4 kinds for pancadvara vithi cittas and 2 kinds for manodvara vithi cittas. They are 1. atimahanta-arammana or very-clear object 2. mahanta-arammana or clear object 3. paritta-arammana or faint object 4. atiparitta-arammana or very-faint object for pancadvara vithi cittas and 5. vibhuta-arammana or specially-obvious object 6. avibhuta-arammana or obvious object for manodvara vithi cittas May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40374 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:. different individuals, sutta. Hi Phil, This morning I came across a sutta you will like. We talked about the seven individuals: faith devotee, faith-liberated one, body-witness, twice liberated, Dhamma devotee, vision-possessed, wisdom-liberated. Gradual Sayings, book of the Tens, Ch II, §6: Worshipful. Here are ten persons. In addition to the seven there are a Buddha, a Pacceka Buddha and the person who has change of lineage, gotrabhuu. As to change-of-lineage, this is the citta arising just before the lokuttara magga-citta. It experiences nibbana, but it does not eradicate defilements, it is not lokuttara. It is one moment of citta and it is sure to be followed by the magga-citta. The point here is that it is called person. A person is a moment of citta. The next moment that person is no longer the same, he is an ariyan. The Co calls gotrabhuu the culmination of vipassana. Some people find it difficult to understand that there are four pairs of ariyans, eight persons. These are eight cittas. The path-consciousness of the sotapanna will be followed immediately by the fruition-consciousness. Two different persons means two different cittas. When one comes to think of it, it is not strange. Nina. 40375 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Dear Tep, I read the article. A. Mun said: The mind is bound to converge in a big way; and the instant it converges, everything will appear to converge, being one and the same. The entire world will be nothing but elements. > N: What is the world? the five khandhas. True, there are only elements, dhatus, devoid of self. He then says: < At the same time, an image > will appear of the world as being level as a drum head, because the > entire world is of one and the same inherent nature. Forests, mountains, > people, animals -- even you yourself -- will all ultimately have to be > leveled down in one and the same way. Together with this vision, > knowledge arises, cutting off all doubts in the heart. This is called yatha- > bhuta-ñana-dassana vipassana: the clear insight that both knows and > sees things for what they actually are. > N: I am reticent in critizing others' articles. I want to go now straight to the Suttas. I shall repost partly what I wrote before: < ³Discourse on the Manifold Elements² (Middle length Sayings, no 115, P.T.S.edition). When the Buddha was staying near Såvatthí in the Jeta Grove, that he spoke to Ananda about the elements: ³There are these eighteen elements, Ånanda: the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness; the element of ear, the element of sound, the element of auditory consciousness; the element of nose, the element of smell, the element of olfactory consciousness; the element of tongue, the element of taste, the element of gustatory consciousness; the element of body, the element of touch, the element of bodily consciousness; the element of mind, the element of mental states, the element of mental consciousness. When, Ånanda, he knows and sees these eighteen elements, it is at this stage that it suffices to say, ŒThe monk is skilled in the elements.¹ ² All that is real is included in these eighteen elements. In dependence on the sense objects and sense bases arise the sense-cognitions. We then read about the element of mind (mano dhåtu), which includes the five-sense-door adverting-consciousness (the first citta in a sense-door process), the receiving-consciousness (vipåkacitta, arising in a process after the sense-cognition of seeing. etc) and the determining-consciousness (votthapana, arising in a sense-door process just before the javana-cittas that are kusala or akusala). As to the element of ³mental states² (dhamma dhåtu), these are the dhammas that are experienced through the mind-door: all rúpas other than the sense objects, cittas, cetasikas and nibbåna. As to the element of mental consciousness (manoviññåna dhåtu), this includes all cittas, except the five sense-cognitions and the three kinds of cittas classified as mind-element. It includes cittas experiencing an object through six doors as well as door-freed cittas, cittas not arising in processes, namely, rebirth-consciousness, bhavanga-cittas and dying-consciousness. All these elements are realities of our daily life. They arise all the time but we do not realize that they are elements, devoid of self... We read in the Commentary that for those who consider this Dhamma Discourse, all these elements appear clearly, just as the reflection of his face clearly appears to someone using a mirror. Therefore, the Buddha said to Ånanda that this Discourse could also be remembered as the ³Mirror of Dhamma². We have many defilements and we are troubled by many kinds of contrarieties in our life. We think of other persons who treat us in a disagreeable way. However, we can learn that, in the ultimate sense, there is not ³me², not the other person, but that there are only elements or dhammas. Dhammas can appear as clearly as the reflection in a mirror.... We need endless patience and perseverance in the development of vipassanå. We have to consider nåma and rúpa and be aware of them so that we become familiar with their different characteristics. It has to be remembered that nåma experiences an object and that rúpa does not experience anything. > I find the suttas very clear and direct. Abhidhamma is taught in the suttas, as Suan recently stressed. Why is that? To help us in the development of direct understanding of what is real at this moment. As we read: there are the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness. The impinging of visible object on the eyesense is the condition for seeing. Each element (except nibbana, which is the uncondiitoned element) can only arise when there are the right conditions. We can read it, hear it, but we may not have thoroughly considered the truth. It has to go into our bones. Such firm understanding is the condition for the arising of sati sampajañña. Direct understanding eliminates doubt and confidence grows. Nina. op 29-12-2004 04:55 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > Please read the following two extracted paragraphs from the lecture, > and I would very much appreciate to know what you think. 40376 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections , Vibhanga. Dear Sarah and Mike, I wrote this to Howard: ,,,, the wrong view ...the conceit ... There are these obsessions, or or . .. These three ways of clinging are illustrated with examples. A person thinks I am a ruler, a Brahmin, and he can think with these three papañcas.> Nina. op 30-12-2004 10:48 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > p.s I looked in the Vibhanga (Book of Analysis) which Nina mentioned for > the Abhid reference for the kinds of attachment. I didn't find the same > phrase we were discussing that is explained in the commentaries ('This is > mine' etc) 40377 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:03pm Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Friend Jon, Thanks for getting back to me concerning my questions and comments. Jon: I was just speaking conventinally. I know that I am definitely in the 'beginner' category, since awarenss and indight are weak and undeveloped. James: Thanks for answering, but I didn't really want a personal analysis. I wanted something more general. However, since you did reply on a personal basis, I don't know how you could say that about yourself! Are you just being modest or are you being serious? I would consider someone very far from the Buddha's teachings (ohhhh… maybe, Anna Nicole Smith? ;-)) to be in the `beginner' category with weak insight and awareness. You have been a practicing Buddhist for how many years? And you still think you have weak awareness and insight? Come on!! As the Buddha taught: "And how is a monk one with a sense of himself? There is the case where a monk knows himself: 'This is how far I have come in conviction, virtue, learning, liberality, discernment, quick- wittedness.' If he didn't know himself -- 'This is how far I have come in conviction, virtue, learning, liberality, discernment, quick- wittedness' -- he wouldn't be said to be one with a sense of himself. So it's because he does know himself -- 'This is how far I have come in conviction, virtue, learning, liberality, discernment, quick-wittedness' -- that he is said to be one with a sense of himself. This is one with a sense of Dhamma, a sense of meaning, & a sense of himself." Jon: The sutta itself is silent on the question of whether the path factors are descriptive of the moment of path entry or development of the path, or are factors to be developed separately and individually, so either explanation involves an element of interpretation. James: Well, that could be, but the Buddha didn't need to explain so explicitly what the Noble Eightfold Path is, since it is rather common sense. For example, Right Speech and Right Livelihood are ongoing path factors and therefore couldn't be a moment of `path entry'. Perhaps you could go through each of the path factors and explain how they each arise at path entry? Honestly, I am very curious about this because I don't understand. A part of me agrees with you and a part of me doesn't. After all, I believe that all eight path factors must be in play at the same moment of enlightenment, or one couldn't realize the Four Noble Truths. However, I think that this is different than what you are suggesting. Could you be so kind as to explain further? Metta, James 40378 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 1:28pm Subject: Re: Apologies Friend Sarah, Thank you for this response to my post, and I apologize for my delay in responding. Sarah: James – `those several views' is a translation of anekavihitaa di.t.thiyo meaning many, various or manifold wrong view. As I quoted from another sutta, when self doctrines or views are eradicated, so are all other wrong views.] James: Anekavihitaa di.t.thiyo means many, various or manifold wrong view. Okay. Does it mean ALL wrong view? Again, what is the sutta stating. Sarah: As I quoted from another sutta, when self doctrines or views are eradicated, so are all other wrong views. James: What other sutta did you quote from which stated that?? Please quote that sutta again, please. Sarah: Herman & James, I want to quote some of the useful notes Nyanaponika refers to above in the sutta, but I'll put them at the end of this post after signing off. James: Sarah, no offense, but you quote far too much material as it is! Please only quote those things that are relevant or, if you feel that other information is relevant, please provide your own analysis explaining why it is relevant. For example, in my previous post on this thread I quoted two stanzas of the Sallekha Sutta with one note of commentary and you have responded in this post with six paragraphs of the introduction by Nyanaponika, three stanzas of the sutta, and 10 commentary notes! And in-between all of this onslaught of information you have only given me one paragraph of personal analysis (which I have already quoted in this post…that's all I have to work with!). Sarah: James, as I say, this is more rushed than intended. James: I could understand that; I have been there also. BTW, did you personally type all of this information or copy paste from somewhere else? Metta, James ps. Happy New Year to you and everyone!! 40379 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:33pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 88 - Volition/cetanaa (r) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa]contd] ***** Questions i There is cetanå also when we are sound asleep. What is its function at such a moment? ii When we observe síla what is the function of cetanå? iii Which cetasika is akusala kamma or kusala kamma? iv How can a deed performed in the past produce a result later on? v What kind of result can be produced by akusala kamma patha (unwholesome course of action) which is completed? vi What are the other forms of vipåka produced by kamma, apart from rebirth-consciousness? vii What is the effect of the accumulation of tendencies to good and evil? viii When we laugh is there akusala citta? ix When we are daydreaming can there be akusala citta? x What are the conditions for kusala citta to arise more often? ***** [Ch.4 Volition(cetanaa)finished!] Metta, Sarah ====== 40380 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Andrew L, Good to be discussing the Dhamma with you again! --- Andrew Levin wrote: > OK. Hopefully this will serve to get us all more knowledgeable about > the Buddha's teachings so that we can practise correctly and acheive > further realization. … S: I feel the same Thank you very much for sharing all the detail about how you view the Abhidhamma, the Satipatthana Sutta and how you see your practice ‘moving into the streets and being ‘mindful in the present moment’ ‘.There’s plenty to discuss here. I'll just extract a few parts now. > > --- Andrew Levin wrote: <….> > Some of you may take it to be one nama or rupa at a time, but I see > the material in the chapter on compendium of consciousness to be > known as it appears in reality, as part of my practise, specifically > related to the section of the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta regarding > contemplation on consciousness. …. S: It’s a good idea to compare the contents of the Abhidammattha Sangaha (as we are reading it in CMA) with the Satipatthana Sutta and to relate it to practice. So in the first text, after the introduction, we read that: “The things contained in the Abhidhamma, spoken of therein, are altogether fourfold from the standpoint of ultimate reality: consciousness, mental factors, matter, and Nibbana.” These are the only dhammas that can ever be understood or realized. Consciousness (citta) is included in cittaanupassanaa and also in dhammaanupassanaa, the third and fourth foundations of mindfulness. Mental factors (cetasikas) are included in vedanaanupassanaa, cittaanupassanaa and also in dhammaanupassanaa Matter (rupas) are included in kaayaanupassanaa and also in dhammaanupassanaa (Nibbana is not included in these four foundations because the development of satipatthana as described in the sutta is concerned with the development of mundane awareness and wisdom.) So these are all the same namas and rupas being described which can only be known when they are experienced. For example, the first kind of consciousness mentioned in the sutta is ‘the consciousness with lust’. This can only be known when it arises, though we can read and theoretically understand more details about it anytime. Is there attachment now? If so, there can be awareness of it immediately without any special concentration or attention. This is how satipatthana can be understood. From the sub-commentery to the Satipatthana Sutta: “In the consciousness with lust, lust occurs as a mental concomitant arising and passing away along with a conscious state and sharing with that conscious state the object and basis of consciousness.” In other words, we’re used to thinking of ourselves or others as being greedy or having attachment, but we learn in both the Abhidhamma and the suttas that there are just these cittas and cetasikas arising and passing away and that it’s quite possible for awareness to be aware of these states from time to time. .... <...> >...I immediately remembered a > suggestion by the Buddha to his monks that on guarding the sense > doors, one can go to heaven, or by neglecting to guard the sense > doors, one can go to hell, so I began guarding my sense doors. …. S: And the meaning of guarding the sense doors is the understanding and development of satipatthana when objects or dhammas impinge on these sense doors. First of all there has to be the understanding of what the dhammas (realities) in our life are so that they can be known, rather than being swept away by trains of thinking about concepts which are purely imagined. Like you say later ‘if no one is there to have a problem, there is no problem.’ In other words, the problems in life are those problems conceptualized and imagined. Even lust or hatred are not problems in the sense that they can be known. They can be the objects of awareness when they arise and are seen as merely conditioned elements, not a person. … <...> > There is a verse in Dhammapada about the nature of ignorance, and > even telling you to 'free yourself from it.' …. S: We can say ‘free yourself from ignorance’, but in truth it is the development of the eightfold path with right understanding as leader which does the freeing. So we have to distinguish our convenrional use of language from the strict understanding of the real meaning behind the words which we read about in the Abhidhamma. Most importantly, we have to remember there’s no self ever. As you say, ‘our goal is to extinguish our defilements and attain the supramundane paths’, but this will only ever happen by the patient development of satipatthana. You asked whether my goal ‘of experiencing namas and rupas one way at a time is aimed towards this same goal’. The answer is 'yes' as I’ve tried to explain above. Satipatthana is the experiencing and awareness of namas and rupas one at a time. Only one is ever the object of the cittas when awareness and understanding can arise. If it’s a citta with attachment or lust, it’s not the time to be aware of anger. If it is hardness being experienced as one types, it’s not the time to be aware of feeling or attachment. If my understanding of practice makes my life more complicated or difficult, I question the understanding. It’s not about having another kind of experience, but of understanding what is being experienced now very naturally, whether out in the street or sitting in the waiting room as you describe. As Nina wrote to another friend yesterday: “Each element (except nibana, which is the unconditioned element) can only arise when there are the right conditions. We can read it, hear it, but we many not have thoroughly considered the truth. It has to go into our bones. Such firm understanding is the condition for the arising of sati sampaja~n~na [which we read about in the Satipatthana Sutta]. Direct understanding eliminates doubt and confidence grows.” Look forward to your feedback. Maybe we can quote little bits from CMA as we go along and as you suggest in effect, look at ways of narrowing our different understandings of what we read. Metta and Best Wishes for the New Year. Sarah ========> 40381 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Indroduction Hi Charles, I just wished to thank you for kindly giving the extra intro details. Very interesting! --- Charles DaCosta wrote: > > > Hi all, my name is Charles DaCosta, I live in Denmark. I was born and > razed in the USA (east coast) but have lived in Denmark since 97. > > I am 43 years old, had a good Christian upbringing (training that is), > and been involved in Buddhism since 1974. At different times I had > planed to be Christian minister, a monk (Therevadin), and a Lama. > However, life has not seen it fit for me to do either for more than > teaching a class here and there. I have also trained in Zen. .... S: You obviously developed an interest at a very young age and it's curious how life works out so differently from our plans and dreams! .... > > I practice martial artist (Chinese mainly) most of my life, and I tend > to use it as a vehicle to teach Buddhism and Taoism. > > By profession I am a software engineer with several different types of > degrees. .... S: You'll get on well with Engineer RobM's analogies here.....;-). Enjoying all your posts and reflections, Charles Metta, Sarah ===== 40382 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Dec 30, 2004 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit. . . Hi Betty & Howard, Both your letters to Icaro were very kind, compassionate and understanding as usual. --- mombetty@y... wrote: <...> > This is one of the > wonderful > things about the study of abhidhamma: it helps us to "see", through deep > > thought and contemplation, how all of that which we take for "self" is > merely the interaction of various phenomena because of conditions. There > is > nothing for "us" to attach to because there is no "us", nor are there > "things" because these are only concepts created by the mind. This > thought, > when it arises, is a great aid to realizing, and then, letting go of > "our" > defilements, i.e., those things "we" are attached to (including that > which > we don't like since we are also "attached" to getting away from what > "we" > don't like) .... Betty, these are all great reminders and we should thank Icaro for bringing you out of lurking mode;-). Lookin forward to more in the New Year. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, your posts were perfectly fine in all regards. Don't worry. ======================================= 40383 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 0:17am Subject: Happy New Year 2005!!! Hello all, Happy 2005!!! Turn up the volume & make sure to pop all the ballons -- enjoy! http://web.icq.com/friendship/swf/0,,16961_rs,00.swf Hope everyone has a wonderful and Happy New Year!!!! metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 40384 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Thank you for this response to my post, and I apologize for my delay > in responding. … S: You’ve caught the British and Candian apology syndrome;-). Actually, I’ve got several of your posts in front of me waiting for replies – you’ve been very patient. I’ll try to stick to your specific questions and find a middle path between not giving ‘a personal analysis’ (see yr comment to Jon) and ‘providing (my) own anyalysis ‘(see yr comment to me);-). … > James: Anekavihitaa di.t.thiyo means many, various or manifold wrong > view. Okay. Does it mean ALL wrong view? Again, what is the sutta > stating. ….. S: Yes. That’s why I overloaded you with commentary detail and Nyanaponika’s comments about that detail as I knew you wouldn’t be impressed by just my take!! … > James: What other sutta did you quote from which stated that?? > Please quote that sutta again, please. …. S:This is from my post on the 23rd Dec to TG. I’ve referred to it twice recently and also to several other suttas in my discussion: >S: As you’ve agreed, all other wrong views depend on sakkaya-ditthi and when it is eradicated, so are they: From SN 41:3 Isidatta (2), Bodhi transl: “Now, householder, are you asking thus: ‘Venerable elder, there are various views that arise in the world: “The world is eternal”….- these as well as the sixty-two speculative views mentioned in the Brahmajaala. Now when what exists do these views come to be? When what is nonexistent do these views not come to be?’ “ “Yes, venerable sir.” “As to the various views that arise in the world, householder, ‘the world is eternal’….-These as well as the sixty two speculative views mentioned in the Brahmajaala: when there is identity view, these views come to be; when there is no identity view, these views do not come to be.” …. S:All wrong views are included in the 62 speculative views mentioned here. They are all eradicated when sakkaya –ditthi (wrong view of self) is eradicated. …. >J:….For example, in my previous > post on this thread I quoted two stanzas of the Sallekha Sutta with > one note of commentary and you have responded in this post with six > paragraphs of the introduction by Nyanaponika, three stanzas of the > sutta, and 10 commentary notes! … S: it was a bit of overkill, I agree. Even then I was having a hard time not adding another 10 comentary notes in addition;-). It all seemed very relevant to me to our discussions and to points you and Herman were raising. If there’s anything you’d particularly like further personal analysis on, just let me know. … >And in-between all of this onslaught > of information you have only given me one paragraph of personal > analysis (which I have already quoted in this post…that's all I have > to work with!). … S: To be honest, James, I didn’t realize you were so interested in my analysis. I’d already made many comments on the same topic in my thread with TG, but I’ll try to find the right balance for you in future. Btw, I didn’t type it all, it was from a wheel on line, I believe at the link you gave us. The other suttas quoted from in the thread with TG (looking at your other post which says I haven’t given any quotes from suttas) were the Khemaka Sutta and Anathapindika Sutta. I understand that your interpretation may well be different and if you prefer not to refer to the commentary in such a case, that’s no problem. Your recent set of posts have all been full of good material for reflection and further consideration btw. In another post to me (#40140) you quote from a sutta which refers to the fetters eradicated by a stream-winner as being ‘self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts and practices…’. So clearly even in these suttas, self views are totally eradicated and thereby (see sutta above) all wrong views. The commentaries merely confirm this. As wrong views are totally eradicated so is the (wrong) grasping at any wrong practices. There is no doubt about the further development of satipatthana and the understanding of conditioned dhammas. No self to do anything at all. And how are such wrong views eradicated? For this, looking at the first part of the Upanisa Sutta you quoted, we read: >Upanisa Sutta >While staying at Savatthi the Exalted One said: "The destruction of the cankers, monks, is for one who knows and sees, I say, not for one who does not know and does not see. Knowing what, seeing what does the destruction of the cankers occur? 'Such is material form, such is the arising of material form, such is the passing away of material form. Such is feeling... perception... mental formations... consciousness; such is the arising of consciousness, such is the passing away of consciousness' -- for one who knows and sees this, monks, the destruction of the cankers occurs.< .... S: In other words, the understanding of the khandhas, of the various namas and rupas when they appear and can be known. And yes (in answer to other qus you raised in post #40056), when I wrote ‘This is why seeing and visible object and the other sense experiences and objects have to be known for what they are’, I mean ‘seeing’ with the help of the eye-base here as opposed to understanding as in the sutta passage above. However, it's not the physical eye that does the seeing in this sense. Why? Because the eye-base is a rupa (or ever changing rupas) and rupas cannot experience anything. They merely support the seeing consciousness which experiencs the visible object which is contacted. (Ignore that part if it's too Abhidhamma for your likeing). Why is it given so much emphasis in the suttas? I think as Phil put it, this is where the ‘fire starts’ (#40041). He quoted this one: “On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at its signs and features. Since, if he left the eye faculty unguarded, evil, unwholesome states of consciousness and grief might invade him, he practices the way of its restraint, he guards the eye faculty.” (from MN 27:15). Gosh, now you’re going to tell me I’m providing over-kill on the suttas and analysis now, so I’d better stop. James, thanks again for your contributions and efforts to keep me on your tracks. I look forward to your further comments. Have a wonderful New Year yourself with lots of wisdom. Metta, Sarah ======== 40385 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:31am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi Agrios, I never replied to this message of yours - apologies too. --- agriosinski wrote: > > S: Yes, no problem. When there is lobha (as root condition), it has > the > > power or force to bring about/condition various dhammas. No self or > thing > > or essence involved. > A:> Sarah, > plaese expalain how can we have lobha without self being involved. > By "thing or essence" you mean dhammas or something else? .... S: What I mean is that whether or not we've ever heard the Buddha's teachings, there are only the 5 khandhas at work with no self or thing anywhere except in our minds. For example, seeing is not self, hearing is not self, thinking is not self, feeling is not self and so on. Just different namas and rupas involved conditioning and being conditioned by each other in multiple complex ways. Now it's true that often when there is attachment there is also a wrong view of self involved too. But it's only ever a wrong view. It doesn't exist. By 'thing or essence' here, I meant that lobha is just lobha, it's not something lasting or with any self or substance involved. It's just a dhamma or element which arises when there are the right conditions and then falls away. Good questions. I was also interested in your comment in another post (#39924) to me, but you'd need to elaborate as I wasn't quite clear of your meaning.You wrote "that whole D.O. runs in namarupa and not in "the world" as it is analyzed by various commentaries." Also there is no ME to turn into namarupa as you seemed to suggest, but I may have misunderstood. Happy New Year. Metta, Sarah ==== 40386 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections , Vibhanga. Dear Nina & Mike,(KenH at the end;-), Thank you for the extract below, Nina. I had got behind with my reading and only read your other post to Howard today! It helps to keep up-to-date so that one doesn't go looking in the text for something just quoted! Also your post #40258 on feelings is exactly on the topic of what I was writing yesterday. Mike, I'm sure you've read it now too. "Tiika Text: For the profitableness of profitable feeling is not due to its association with profitable consciousness, but rather to wise attention and so on. That is why he said "as to kind (jaati)" So too in the case of the unprofitable and so on' (Pm 481)." Lots more in it. Of course, manasikara is a universal too which arises with all jaatis and when it is kusala or akusala conditions the accompanying feeling etc, Mike. I also see that you (Nina) adds: "The Tiika adds that although feelings can be classified to three jaatis, it can also be classified as eightynine-fold since they accompany all eightynine cittas. Each type of citta is different and thus also its accompanying feeling is different. Even cittas of the same type are different and thus also feeling can never be the same." Again, I could have just quoted your post and references here! I think it helps a lot to appreciate how different feelings are from moment to moment - so there's no clinging to any idea of a fixed feeling or constant feeling arising with particular states. The same functions and characteristics in common, but each one is as different as each visible object, each sound or each moment of thinking, for example. Happy New Year to both of you and Lodewijk and everyone here, Metta, Sarah p.s KenH, I meant to add a little more on our thread - I agree that your choice of translation from Sn was a better one than mine. I tend to use Saddhatissa's because I have the hard copy of his text and because he was always so kind to me;-). ... --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah and Mike, > I wrote this to Howard: > ...one gets the wish ,,,, the wrong view ...the conceit am>... > There are these obsessions, or or otherwise>. .. > These three ways of clinging are illustrated with examples. A person > thinks > I am a ruler, a Brahmin, and he can think with these three papañcas.> 40387 From: nina Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:49am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 127 and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 127 and Tiika Text: It is fivefold according to the analysis into [bodily] pleasure, [bodily] pain, [mental] joy, [mental] grief, and equanimity. N: The Tiika states that this fivefold classification merely takes into account the nature of feeling, beginning with pleasure, not the accompanying dhammas, the plane of citta, or the object that is experienced. The Tiika explains that pleasure, sukha, causes happiness (sukhayati, makes happy) to the body and the accompanying dhammas, whereas pain, dukkha, causes unhappiness (dukkhayati) to the body and afflicts the accompanying dhammas. We read that a question is asked why unpleasant feeling is classified as bodily and mental, and pleasant feeling as bodily and mental, but upekkhaa, indifferent feeling as single fold? The answer is that upekkhaa is only mental. There is no indifferent feeling that accompanies body-consciousness. The impact of tangible object (three great elements) on the bodybase is forceful and direct, just as when cottonwool is placed on an anvil and is struck with a hammer, the hammer goes through the cottonwool and strikes the anvil. Therefore, when body-consciousness experiences an unpleasant object it is accompanied by painful bodily feeling, and when it experiences a pleasant object it is accompanied by pleasant bodily feeling. It is not accompanied by indifferent feeling. The Expositor (II, p. 349) explains <... But in the door of the bodily surface the external great essential itself [the great Element] as the object strikes the internal sentient organism and impinges on the [internal] great essentials which are the cause of the [internal] sensory stimulation. As when the cotton lump, placed on top of the anvil, is struck with a hammer, the hammer breaks through the cotton and ³takes² the anvil, and the friction is strong, so the friction of the impact is strong.> We read in the Co to the Abhidhammaatha Sangaha (T.A. p. 22): Dependent ruupas (upada ruupas) or derived rupas are all ruupas other than the four great elements. Text Vis: Herein, 'pleasure' is associated with profitable resultant body-consciousness (38) and 'pain' with unprofitable resultant body-consciousness (54). N: The Tiika explains that the object of body-consciousness accompanied by pleasant feeling has an object that is desirable or moderately desirable. 'Text Vis: Joy' is associated with 62 kinds of consciousness, namely, as to sense sphere, with 4 kinds of profitable (1)-(4), with 4 resultant with root-cause (42)-(45),with 1 resultant without root-cause (40), with 4 functional with root-cause (73)-(76), with 1 functional without root-cause (72), and with 4 unprofitable (22)-(25) N: These are: four of the eight mahaa-kusala cittas, four mahaa-vipaakacittas that are their results, one type of ahetuka kusala vipaakacitta that is santiira.na-citta, investigating-consciousness (when the object is very desirable), four mahaa-kiriyacittas, one ahetuka kiriyacitta, that is the smile-producing consciousness of the arahat, and four akusala cittas rooted in attachment. These kaamavacara cittas are eighteen types. Text Vis: and as to the fine-material-sphere, with 4 kinds of profitable (9)-(12), 4 resultant (57)-(60), and 4 functional (81)-(84), leaving out that of the fifth jhana in each case; but there is no supramundane without jhana and consequently the [eight] kinds of supramundane (18)-(21) and (66)-(69) multiplied by the five jhanas make forty; but leaving out the eight associated with the fifth jhana, it is associated with the remaining 32 kinds of profitable resultant. N: four ruupaavacara kusala cittas (of four jhaanas), four ruupaavacara vipaakacittas, four ruupaavacara kiriyacittas. The fifth stage of ruupajhaanacitta is not accompanied by happy feeling, but by indifferent feeling. When lokuttara cittas are counted as lokuttara jhaanacittas, that is, accompanied by jhaanafactors, there are, instead of eight lokuttara cittas, forty lokuttara cittas. Also for those who attain enlightenment without having developed jhaana, concentration accompanying lokuttara citta has the strength of jhaana; it can be counted as lokuttara jhaanacitta accompanied by the factors of the first stage of jhaana. Thirtytwo types of lokuttara cittas are accompanied by happy feeling since jhaanacitta of the fifth stage is accompanied by indifferent feeling. There are sixtytwo cittas in all accompanied by happy feeling. Text Vis.: 'Grief' is associated with the two kinds of unprofitable (30)-(31). ' N: The two types of dosa-muulacittas are the only types accompanied by unhappy feeling. Text Vis: Equanimity is associated with the remaining fifty-five kinds of consciousness. N: When lokuttara jhaanacittas are taken into account, cittas are counted as hundred and twentyone. When we subtract sixtytwo cittas with happy feeling, the two kinds of bodyconsciousness with bodily feelings of pain and pleasure and the two cittas rooted in dosa accompanied by unhappy feeling, there are fiftytwo types left and these are accompanied by indifferent feeling. Conclusion: ====== It is useful to classify feelings, this helps us to know when feeling is kusala, akusala or indeterminate. For example, we should remember that body-consciousness and its accompanying feeling are vipaaka, the result of kamma. We should not confuse bodily painful feeling and pleasant feeling with unhappy feeling and happy feeling accompanying akusala cittas. When we have pain akusala cittas with dislike are bound to arise very rapidly after the vipaakacittas. When we experience pleasant bodily feeling such as an agreeable temperature, lobha-muulacittas are bound to arise soon after the vipaakacittas. The conditions for happy feeling accompanying kusala citta are different from the conditions for happy feeling accompanying lobha-muulacitta. Conditions for happy feeling accompanying kusala citta are understanding of what kusala is, an abundance of confidence in the benefit of kusala, and in the case of generosity a suitable object to be given and someone to receive the gift. Conditions for happy feeling that accompanies lobha-muulacitta are rebirth-consciousness accompanied by happy feeling and a desirable object. Lobha-muulacitta can also be accompanied by the wrong view that there is no danger in sense pleasures. One may pursue them with happy feeling and wrong view. It is useful to know that four types of lobha-muulacitta are accompanied by pleasant feeling and four types by indifferent feeling. When feeling is indifferent we may think that there is no attachment but we should remember that for example immediately after seeing attachment is bound to arise. When attachment is accompanied by indifferent feeling we do not notice it. All classifications of feelings remind us that they each have their own conditions for their arising and that they are without owner. They are mere elements devoid of self. ***** Nina. 40388 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:20am Subject: Dhamma Thread (211) Dear Dhamma Friends, Depending on the number of arising of vithi cittas or 'consciousness in procession' there are four different types of object recognized. They are 1. atimahanta-arammana or 'very clear object' 2. mahanta-arammana or 'clear object' 3. paritta-arammana or 'faint object' 4. atiparitta-arammana or 'very faint object' in 5-door citta processions or pancadvara vithi vara. Ati means 'excess' 'great' 'very' and mahanta means 'great'. So atimahanta means 'very very great' or 'very clear'. Arammana means 'object'. Paritta means 'weak' 'faint' 'unclear' 'lesser' 'fewer'. Actually these objects are taken into account depending on total number of vithi cittas or consciousness in procession in a given object. Otherwise all objects are the same in terms of performing their function of serving as arammana or object of consciousness. In very clear object, there are maximal number of vithi cittas in that given object as compared to other 3 kinds of object. An object just lasts 17 moments or 17 citta-kkhanas. In a very clear object, 14 cittas out of 17 possible cittas are vithi cittas. This is the highest number of cittas among different kinds of object. Rupa cannot serve as an object as soon as it appears because it is still weak in its initial arising or formation. In this object of very clear or atimahanta-arammana, after 3 bhavanga cittas pass away the first vithi citta can arise. There are 3 pre-vithi bhavanga cittas in the name of atita bhavanga citta or past bhavanga, bhavanga calana or vibrating bhavanga and bhavanguppaccheda or arresting bhavanga citta. At the time when the last vithi citta passes away, the object rupa also passes away. [3 pre-vithi bhavanga cittas + 14 vithi cittas = 17 cittas = 1 rupa] In clear object or mahanta-arammana, 12 vithi cittas out of 17 possible cittas arise. This is not as many as in the object of atimahanta-arammana. So it is just called mahanta-arammana. Ati means 'excess' 'great'. After passing away of 4 bhavanga cittas or 5 bhavanga cittas, the first vithi citta-pancadvaravajjana citta is able to take the current object [rupa] which is now 5-moment-old or 6- moment-old. There are 4 pre-vithi bhavanga cittas followed by 12 vithi cittas and 1 post-vithi bhavanga citta. At the time when post-vithi bhavanga citta passes away the original object rupa also passes away. Another possible mahanta-arammana or clear object is that there are 5 pre- vithi bhavanga cittas followed by 12 vithi cittas. At the time when the last vithi citta passes away the original object rupa also passes away. a)[4 pre-vithi bhavanga + 12 vithi cittas +1 post-vithi bhavanga = 17] b)[5 pre-vithi bhavanga + 12 vithi cittas +0 post-vithi = 17 cittas] In faint object or paritta-arammana, there are only 6 vithi cittas out of 17 possible vittas during the existence of that object. There are 4 atita-bhavanga cittas followed by bhavanga calana citta and bhavanguppaccheda citta just before arising of vithi cittas. So there are 6 bhavanga cittas before vithi cittas. After that follow pancadvaravajjana citta, pancavinnana citta, sampaticchana citta, santirana citta, and 2 votthapana cittas altogether 6 vithi cittas. After this follow another 5 bhavanga cittas. There are 6 possible paritta-arammanas or 6 possible faint objects. 1.6 pre-vithi bhavanga cittas + 6 vithi cittas + 5 post-vithi bhavanga 2.7 pre-vithi bhavanga + 6 vithi cittas + 4 post-vithi bhavanga 3.8 pre-vithi bhavanga + 6 vithi cittas + 3 post-vithi bhavanga 4.9 pre-vithi bhavanga + 6 vithi cittas + 2 post-vithi bhavanga 5.10 pre-vithi bhavanga +6 vithi cittas + 1 post-vithi bhavanga 6.11 pre-vithi bhavanga +6 vithi cittas + and at the disappearance of the last vithi citta the object rupa also falls away. In very faint object or ati-paritta-arammana there is virtually none of vithi cittas at all. But there are 2 bhavanga calana cittas. This vithi vara is called mogha vara. Mogha means 'without things' 'useless' 'without-value'. Here it means 'without any vithi cittas'. But unlike normal bhavanga cittas there does have effect of object in bhavanga citta serial flow. That is 2 bhavanga calana cittas. There are 6 possible kinds of atiparitta-arammana or very faint object. 1.10 pre-calana bhavanga + 2 bhavanga calana cittas + 5 post-calana 2.11 pre-calana + 2 bhavanga calana cittas + 4 post-calana 3.12 pre-calana + 2 bhavanga calana cittas + 3 post-calana 4.13 pre-calana + 2 bhavanga calana cittas + 2 post-calana 5.14 pre-calana + 2 bhavanga calana cittas + 1 post-calana 6.15 pre-calana + 2 bhavanga calana cittas + and at the time the 2nd bhavana calana citta passes away the original object rupa also passes away. I think, this is my own opinion, that there is no clear object or faint object from perspective of rupa side. All rupa of panca- arammanas are the same in terms of their life span that is 17 citta- kkhanas. The classification of very clear, clear, faint, and very faint are from the view point of viewers or perceivers. This means that any object is fully apperceived after the end of 7th javana cittas. When javana cittas can arise the given object is called clear object or mahanta-arammana and when there are 2 tadarammana cittas along with 7 javana cittas that object is named very clear object or atimahanta-arammana. So this is from the view point of possibility of arising of javana cittas who are full apperceivers. Objects are the same whether javana cittas arise or not. They all will just last 17 citta-kkhanas. In faint object or paritta-arammana there is no javana cittas at all. There are some vithi cittas but they end up with votthapana cittas who are still unable to determine how to apperceive. The object is the same at any given time that is they will last 17 citta-kkhanas. Rupa does not need to be clear or be faint. But as javana cittas cannot arise here it is called faint object from view point of perceivers cittas. Votthapana cittas which is manodvaravajjana citta cannot apperceive fully and it does not realize the object. The last object called 'very faint object' or 'atiparitta-arammana' does not have any vithi cittas. All 17 cittas during the existence of rupa arebhavanga cittas. But there does have vibration or tremulousness or shakiness because of arising of rupa. This object is also counted in visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40389 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:26am Subject: Re: Apologies Friend Sarah, Sarah: You've caught the British and Canadian apology syndrome ;-). James: Hehehe…that could be. BTW, I was tutoring a college student for semester exams and I ran across something in a college textbook that I thought was funny and it reminded me of DSG and our frequent failures to communicate. From `English for Business Communication' (Published in England by Simon Sweeney and being used at a Canadian College in Cairo): "Remember too that different cultures have different ways of using language. Some speak in a very literal way so it is always quite clear what they mean. Others are more indirect, using hints, suggestions and understatement,(for example `not very good results' = `absolutely disastrous') to put over their message. North America, Scandinavia, Germany and France are `explicit' countries, while the British have a reputation for not making clear exactly what they mean. One reason for this seems to be that the British uses language in a more abstract way than most Americans and continental Europeans. In Britain there are also conventions of politeness and a tendency to avoid showing one's true feelings. For example, if a Dutchman says an idea is `interesting' he means that it is interesting. If an Englishman says that an idea is `interesting' you have to deduce from the way he says it whether he means a good idea or a bad idea." Sarah: That's why I overloaded you with commentary detail and Nyanaponika's comments about that detail as I knew you wouldn't be impressed by just my take!! James: Of course I would be impressed by your take. I am having a conversation with you, not Nyanaponika. ;-) Sarah: As you've agreed, all other wrong views depend on sakkaya- ditthi and when it is eradicated, so are they: From SN 41:3 Isidatta (2), Bodhi transl: James: Ah, hah! Now this idea is very, very `interesting'! ;-)) I did not agree that all wrong views are based on sakkaya-ditthi; that has been what I am arguing. Please provide a quote from the Buddha which states that all wrong views, past, present, and future, are based on personality belief and then I will believe you and I will agree with the commentaries (BTW, I also agree with TG that it is quite possible that some derivatives of wrong view based on personality belief might slip into the mind stream of the sotapanna, since the roots are not yet destroyed, as is suggested by the sutta by Sariputta. But I am not going to argue that since I don't have a lot of evidence in support). Sarah: All wrong views are included in the 62 speculative views mentioned here. They are all eradicated when sakkaya –ditthi (wrong view of self) is eradicated. James: Okay, now I want more than just your personal opinion. Where did the Buddha state that ALL wrong views are included in these 62 speculative views? These are speculative views based on a belief in self; however, ignorance could produce some additional wrong views. Sarah: it was a bit of overkill, I agree. Even then I was having a hard time not adding another 10 comentary notes in addition;-). James: LOL! Yeah, I know how you are. You showed great restraint by not giving me even more information (directly relevant or not)! ;-)) Sarah: I'd already made many comments on the same topic in my thread with TG, but I'll try to find the right balance for you in future. James: Well, you don't have to knock yourself out to please me, just tell me how what you quote is relevant to what we are discussing. Just chalk it up to me being a lazy American...I don't like to think on my own. ;-)) Sarah: The other suttas quoted from in the thread with TG (looking at your other post which says I haven't given any quotes from suttas) were the Khemaka Sutta and Anathapindika Sutta. James: You haven't given any quotes from suttas which prove your point exactly. You have only quoted commentary notes which state your point exactly and the suttas you have quoted give relational types of statements. Sarah: Have a wonderful New Year yourself with lots of wisdom. James: You too! Happy 2005! Metta, James 40390 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:28am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, James buddhatrue wrote: >Jon: Is it your understanding of this passage that the first jhana >is sufficient, and if not then why is it mentioned here? Put another >way, why are all 4 jhanas mentioned rather than just the level that >is sufficient? > >James: I am not quite sure what you mean by "sufficient", but I am >going to assume you mean `sufficient to be deemed Right >Concentration'. Yes, the first jhana would be sufficient enough to >be considered Right Concentration, but one who achieves the first >jhana should not be satisfied with simply that. The four jhanas are >really one jhana, it is just a greater purification of the jhana. >In the first jhana the concentration is more gross and unsteady and >then it becomes more and more refined all the way up to the fourth >jhana. Therefore, to be really right Right Concentration, all four >jhanas should be achieved. Does this answer your question? > > What I meant to ask was whether, on your reading of Right Concentration of the Nobel Eightfold Path, the attainment of the first jhana was sufficient to support enlightenment. I ask this because if it is then there should be no need to also mention the other, higher jhanas. >Metta, >James >Ps. Happy Holidays to you and everyone! > > Thanks, James. And the same to you. Jon 40391 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:40am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 127 and Tiika --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: Visuddhimagga XIV, 127 and Tiika Text: It is fivefold according to the analysis into ..snip.. ..snip..snip... N: When lokuttara jhaanacittas are taken into account, cittas are counted as hundred and twentyone. When we subtract sixtytwo cittas with happy feeling, the two kinds of bodyconsciousness with bodily feelings of pain and pleasure and the two cittas rooted in dosa accompanied by unhappy feeling, there are fiftytwo types left and these are accompanied by indifferent feeling. Conclusion: ====== It is useful to classify feelings, this helps us to know when feeling is kusala, akusala or indeterminate. For example, ..snip.. They are mere elements devoid of self. ***** Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, In your opening of this mail the numbers are right. But later, you said 'there are fiftytwo types left and these are accompanied by indifferent feeling'. There are 55 upekkha cittas out of 121 total cittas. 62 are somanassa cittas, 1 sukha citta, 1 dukkha citta, 2 domanassa cittas (121 - 66 = 55 cittas not 52 cittas). Thanks for your tiika and explanation on feeling of different cittas. The whole post is very clear. With much respect, Htoo Naing 40392 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies Friend James, Just briefly... --- buddhatrue wrote: James: Hehehe…that could be. BTW, I was tutoring a college student > for semester exams and I ran across something in a college textbook > that I thought was funny and it reminded me of DSG and our frequent > failures to communicate. > .... S: Yes funny and accurate;-).I could give lots of examples....i hope you understand now why I go in circles;-). .... > James: Ah, hah! Now this idea is very, very `interesting'! ;-)) I > did not agree that all wrong views are based on sakkaya-ditthi; that > has been what I am arguing. Please provide a quote from the Buddha > which states that all wrong views, past, present, and future, are > based on personality belief and then I will believe you ... S: Ah now the goal posts are being moved!! It's no longer good enough to hand you a perfect quote from a sutta if it's not the Buddha himself speaking. If it was good enough for the arahants at the First Council, why isn't it good enough for you? LOL! "when there is identity view, these views come to be; when there is no identity view, these views do not come to be." .... > Sarah: All wrong views are included in the 62 speculative views > mentioned here. They are all eradicated when sakkaya –ditthi (wrong > view of self) is eradicated. > > James: Okay, now I want more than just your personal opinion. Where > did the Buddha state that ALL wrong views are included in these 62 > speculative views? These are speculative views based on a belief in > self; however, ignorance could produce some additional wrong views. .... S: In the Brahmajala Sutta itself, given by the Buddha and the very first sutta recited at the First Council;-). At the end of each section, The Buddha says: "Outside of these there is none". They are all -inclusive.This is why it is called Brahmajala or 'The All-embracing Net of Views'. In his introduction to the sutta, B.Bodhi writes: "Just as a fisherman casting his net over a small pond can be sure that all fish of a certain size will be caught within the net, so the Buddha declares, whatever thinkers speculate about the past or the future can with certainty be found within the net of his teaching." Only a Buddha could determine and sort all these particular views - it's said to be one of the 4 times the extent of a Buddha's wisdom is evident along with the Vinaya, the classification of dhammas and the teaching of conditions and dependent origination, I believe. Ok, I'll leave you to prepare for the New Year. For us, it's going to be an early bed and an early hike looking for some frost on the mountain tops. Metta, Sarah ======= 40393 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: > I'm not really sure you do entirely disagree with me. I'm not speaking > about reasoning as yielding truth. I'm speaking about exhausting our > reasoning, seeing the ultimate futility of it, seeing through it as > ultimately impotent, and developing a distaste for it to the extent > that one turns away from it and towards reality. I am also not saying > that such is "the way". I'm saying that such is a skillful means. I think what you're saying is something like 'using reasoning to get beyond reasoning'. To my understanding the consequence of that line of thinking or practice is to unwittingly reinforce the (wrong) idea of the efficacy of reasoning, and in this respect it is similar to the idea of 'using self to see no-self'. As far as I'm aware there is no such 'skilful means' mentioned in the texts. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by turning away from reasoning and towards reality. Moments of reasoning are already moments of reality, surely ;-)). With the development of direct awareness and understanding of dhammas, however, what we take for reasoning will be seen as just another form of thinking, and probably mostly akusala thinking at that. Developed panna will know what needs to be turned away from, I believe. Jon 40394 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:49am Subject: Dhamma Thread (212) Dear Dhamma Friends, From the perspective of arising of vithi cittas or consciousness-in- procession objects are classified into 2 major groups; one for panca- dvara vithi cittas or 5-sense-door-processing-consciousness and another for mano-dvara vithi cittas or mind-sense-door-processing- consciousness. There are 4 different visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object' for panca- dvara cittas. Visaya means 'object where citta enjoys and frequently visits. Pavatti means 'arising'. So visaya-pavatti means 'arising of object'. Four different type of these arising of object are 1. atimahanta-arammana or very clear object 2. mahanta-arammana or clear object 3. paritta-arammana or faint object 4. atiparitta-arammana or very faint object Actually rupas are not very clear or clear or faint or very faint. They just arise and last 17 moments of citta or 17 citta-kkhanas and there is no difference in terms of timing or life-span and clearity in real. But very clear, clear, faint and very faint are viewed from the perspective of receivers of object. This means that the cittas who fully apperceive are javana cittas. When javana cittas can arise for a given object then that object is said to be clear. When there are 2 extra cittas serving as retention consciousness or tadarammana cittas then the given object is viewed as very clear object. Object itself is the same. It is not very clear or clear but it just arises and lasts 17 citta-kkhanas. When rupas which can serve as arammanas or objects for attention of cittas arise they just last 17 citta-kkhanas. These 17 citta-kkhanas again comprise 51 anukhanas or 51 sub-moments. Among these 51 submoments of rupa the first sub-moment is so weak that rupa cannot still serve as an object for citta. It becomes powerful to serve as an object starts from 2nd sub-moment till 50th sub-moment. The 51st submoment becomes weak again because it is disappearing or aniccata of that given rupa. As soon as 1st sub-moment of rupa passes away the same 1st sub-moment of a citta passes away. While the rupa cannot still serve as an object there is no current object yet and the arisen citta is still bhavanga citta and it is called atita bhavanga citta or past life- continuing consciousness. In that atita bhavanga citta the last 2 sub- moments are warning shots for citta that rupa is ready and serving as an object. But atita bhavanga citta cannot take that current object. Next citta is bhavanga calana citta or vibrating bhavanga citta. 2 warning shots have been given. The third warning shot that 'I am here serving as an object' message hits next arising bhavanga citta [now bhavanga calana citta] and that citta becomes vibrated, shaken, invigorated, disturbed by those warning shots and so it becomes bhavanga calana citta. This citta is still bhavanga citta and cannot take the current object. Like a marathon man bhavanga cittas are running in uninterrupted succession like the flow of the water of a river. The man cannot dead- stop as soon as he receives warning shot to stop immediately. Instead he has to overshoot for a few steps. Like this 2 sub-moments warning shots hit atita bhavanga citta. But it did not vibrate but passed away and next citta has to vibrate. As warning shot has been received this citta is preparing to stop immediately but it could not and another citta has to arise. It is bhavanguppaccheda citta or arresting bhavanga citta. This bhavanga citta is the last bhavanga citta which are pre-vithi citta when rupa which serves as an object exists and persisting as an object. All three bhavanga cittas cannot take the current object. But as soon as the last bhavanga citta passes away next arises the first vithi citta called panca-dvara-avajjana-citta or 5-sense-door-adverting consciousness. This citta is the first to notice that there is an object. But it still cannot fully apperceive the object and it does not know what exactly that current object is. But it knows that there is an object and it immediately advert the object to next citta. Panca-dvara-avajjana-citta or 5-sense-door-adverting consciousness is like a tower-watcher of an army camp. When the object 'a truck' in the high-way or motor-way of bhavanga cittas approaches the army compound the tower-watcher knows there is a truck [an object]. But he does not know what are inside of the truck. But as it knows it is a truck comes to the army he advert the information to 5-door-keepers or panca-vinnana cittas. If it is visual then to cakkhu and if auditory to sota, if aromatic to ghana, if gustatory to jivha, and if tangible to kayavinnana citta. Panca-dvara-avajjana citta or 5-sense-door-adverting-consciousness does not fully know the object what it is like. But it just know and advert it to one of 5 sense gate keepers. Advert means 'turning the attention to'. This citta turns 'the attention' to panca-vinnana citta. As it is just adverting and nothing more than that this citta is just performing and it is a kiriya citta. Karana karana.m kiriyaaya kiriya. Just doing or performing is kiriya action or functional action or inoperative action. This citta is not a vipaka citta or resultant citta but a kiriya citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40395 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:57am Subject: The All & Nibbana Hi, all - The Sabba Sutta spells out all that there is as follows: ---------------------------------------- "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1 ] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." ---------------------------------------- I'm not so pleased with the use of the phrase 'intellect & ideas' in the foregoing translation. I believe that 'mind door & mind-door objects' would heve been better. (I don't know what the Pali is - perhaps 'mano'?) In any case, I know that Abhidhamma includes nibbana among the mind-door objects, and that is fine with me, though in a way, it seems to constrain the unconstrained or make conditioned the unconditioned. But there is another possible problem, it seems, with the idea of nibbana as mind-door object. Consider, if you will the following sutta: -------------------------------------- Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.24 Pahanaya Sutta To Be Abandoned Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. "Monks, I will teach you the All as a phenomenon to be abandoned. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "And which All is a phenomenon to be abandoned? The eye is to be abandoned. [1] Forms are to be abandoned. Consciousness at the eye is to be abandoned. Contact at the eye is to be abandoned. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too is to be abandoned. "The ear is to be abandoned. Sounds are to be abandoned... "The nose is to be abandoned. Aromas are to be abandoned... "The tongue is to be abandoned. Flavors are to be abandoned... "The body is to be abandoned. Tactile sensations are to be abandoned... "The intellect is to be abandoned. Ideas are to be abandoned. Consciousness at the intellect is to be abandoned. Contact at the intellect is to be abandoned. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too is to be abandoned. "This is called the All as a phenomenon to be abandoned." --------------------------------- Now, if we are to be consistent, and understand 'intellect' simply be a poor alternative for 'mind', and 'ideas' a poor alternative for 'mind-door object', and if nibbana is to be considered a mind-door object, then this talks about abandoning nibbana, an idea that might be found objectionable, for why should the one true refuge be abandoned! A couple attempt at solutions present themselves to me, as follows: 1) To abandon nibbana means to not grasp onto it; to relinquish even that, because to fully realize nibbana, our relinquishing must be complete, without remnant. 2) To abandon may mean more than just to not grasp at; it may mean literally to leave in the dust, *but* the phrase "to be abandoned" is, and Jon will love this, descriptive, and not prescriptive. Nibbana, in its full and final realization, *will* be entirely abandoned, because in the very realizing of nibbana, all is abandoned. This "solution" is reminiscent of Nagarjuna's "emptiness of emptiness" - that even ultimate emptiness is empty. I, myself, prefer the first "solution", as I see it as simpler, less metaphysical, and quite adequate. Thoughts anyone? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40396 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:04am Subject: Buddhas Appear To Only Teach Abhidhamma (Was: abhidhamma - - - To Howard Dear Howard, Nina, Sarah, Chris F, Mike, Andrew L, Ken O and all How are you? And Happy New Year! Howard wrote: (For context, please see Howard's original post below.) "I consider this to be a cart-before-the-horse formulation, Suan. I see the Abhidhamma as a codification of the teachings in the suttas." I think I was not able to clearly convey to you my message about the primacy of abhidhamma in Gotama's Taming System that is Theravada Buddhism. Or you missed the point I was making in my original post. You seemed to be thinking that abhidhamma was a later development. That type of chronologizing abhidhamma should be made only by uninformed and speculative academics such as experts in Hermeneutics. The expression "speculative academics" here refers to those who are neither followers of Gotama nor practitioners of his teachings. Traditional understanding of typecasting between Suttam and Abhidhamma is to do with the style of presentation, not with their contents. The contents of both Suttam Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka are the same dhammaa - the four ultiamte realities: mind, mental associates, matter and nibbaana. As Atthasaalinii put it, "Suttantañhi patvaa pañcakkhandhaa ekadeseneva vibhattaa, na nippadesena; abhidhammam patvaa pana suttantabhaajaniiya abhidhammabhaajaniiya pañhapucchakanayaanam vasena nippadesato vibhattaa." Nidaanakathaa, Atthasaalinii. "When getting to Suttanta, the five aggregates are analysed only partially, not fully. When getting to Abhidhamma, though, they are analysed exhaustively by means of Suttanta analysis, Abhidhamma analysis and Questioning methods." ... (Continue with other groupings of dhammaa such as Venues (Aayatana), Elements (Dhaatu), Truths (Saccaa) and so on...) Page 2, Introduction, Atthasaalinii. And, I have been proposing to regard the four ultimate realities as units of abhidhamma wherever they are found textually - be they in Suttanta Pitaka, or Vinaya Pitaka, or Abhidhamma Pitaka. In short, I have been declaring the reality units, their conditions and relations as abhidhammaa. Now, Howard, how do you feel about such a proposal and such a declaration. Happy New Year To All! With regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Suan - In a message dated 12/28/04 10:49:52 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > > To my knowledge, the most essential teachings of the Buddha found in > Suttam Pitaka deal with reality units and different approaches to > their manipulation. Thus, any Suttam can be shown to be abhidhamma > in disguise. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I consider this to be a cart-before-the-horse formulation, Suan. I see the Abhidhamma as a codification of the teachings in the suttas. ------------------------------------- > > Now, Howard, the origin of Abhidhamma Pitaka is Gotama the Buddha as > the Three Pitakas are coherent system of teachings involving the > reality units, their conditions and relations in various ways of > presentation for the sole purpose of taming and transforming our > minds for eventual awakening. ------------------------------------------ Howard: I certainly agree that Abhidhamma was created with the teachings of the Buddha as basis. If that is what you mean, then I agree. ========================= With metta, and saddha in the Tiratana, Howard 40397 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread (213) Dear Dhamma Friends, As soon as panca-dvara-avajjana citta or 5-sense-door-adverting consciousness passes away next arises panca-vinnana citta. This is citta is a vipaka citta or resultant consciousness. Unlike other 87 cittas, 2 cittas of cakkhuvinnana cittas knows 'seeing-object'. Seeing is the function of these 2 vinnana cittas. So do other 4 pairs namely 2 dvi-sota-vinnana cittas for hearing, 2 dvi-ghana-vinnana cittas for smelling, 2 dvi-jivha-vinnana cittas for tasting and 2 dvi- kaya-vinnana cittas for touching. While other 79 cittas do their jobs, these 10 cittas known as dvi- panca-vinnana cittas do their job each. Their jobs are dassana or seeing function or job for cakkhu-vinnana cittas, savana or hearing function or job for sota-vinnana cittas, ghayana or smelling function or job for ghana-vinnana cittas, sayana or tasting function or job for jivha-vinnana cittas, and phusana or touching function or job for kaya-vinnana cittas. They each know their respective senses. But they just know the senses ans they do not fully apperceive the object what it is like in its fullest essence. Again panca-vinnana citta or 5- sense-consciousness has to pass away. Next arises sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness. These 2 cittas one for akusala vipaka and another for kusala vipaka just receive the information from panca-vinnana citta. Panca-vinnana citta or 5-sense-consciousness or 5-gate-keeper opens the gate and the truck [object] comes in the army compound. After the gate-keeper knows what is inside of the truck he refers the truck to receiving centre called sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness. Again the receiver consciousness just receives the object and he transfers the truck to investigating centre. Receiving consciousness or sampaticchana citta is just to know that he receives the object what panca-vinnana knows and immediately transfers it to the investigator. So it unlike other citta just knows the object and as it is just receiving that citta is called mano-dhatu while all other following cittas are named as mano-vinnana-dhatus. It passes away and next arises santirana citta or investigating consciousness. The investigating centre investigate what are inside of the truck. They know to some extent that something is inside of the truck and it is food. But they cannot decide on what to do with this food and the investigating centre transfers the truck to the commender who is votthapana citta or determining consciousness. There are 3 santirana cittas and all are vipaka cittas. 1 akusala vipaka and 2 are kusala vipaka cittas. Again kusala vipaka santirana cittas are one upekkha and another somanassa santirana citta. Unlike panca-dvara-avajjana citta or 5-sense-door-adverting consciousness who just adverts and sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness who just receives, these 3 santirana cittas know the truck contents or about the object more than former 3 cittas [1 panca- dvara-avajjana-citta and 2 sampaticchana cittas]. So santirana cittas are known as mano-vinnana-dhatus while former 3 cittas are just mano- dhatus. Panca-vinnana cittas sampaticchana cittas and santirana cittas are all vipaka cittas. Now the commender decides that the food inside of the truck has to be shared among all soldiers and army officers and make them eat. This commender is votthapana citta or determining consciousness and it decides or determines how to fully feel or fully apperceive the object. But it just decides and it itself does not fully apperceive the object at that moment. So there is still no commitment yet. This citta votthappana citta is manodvara-avajjana-citta and it is a kiriya citta and it does not create any kamma or it does not grow any seeds yet. It passes away and next arise the 1st javana citta. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40398 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (211) Hi, Htoo - As I understand the following, the sort of "clarity" being dealt with pertains not to individual cittas or their arammanas, but to sequences/processes of cittas, and is a matter of how many in a process have the same "current object" as object. Am I correct in my understanding. If I am correct or at least close to correct, then it seems to me that this notion of "clarity", as opposed, perhaps, to the clarity of clear comprehension, is a conventional property of a conventional reality, because a sequence of cittas is not a dhamma, and a characteristic of a sequence of cittas based on the "total number of vithi cittas or consciousness in procession in a given object" is also not a dhamma nor a characteristic of a dhamma. Is that not so? With metta, Howard In a message dated 12/31/04 6:21:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Depending on the number of arising of vithi cittas or 'consciousness > in procession' there are four different types of object recognized. > > They are > > 1. atimahanta-arammana or 'very clear object' > 2. mahanta-arammana or 'clear object' > 3. paritta-arammana or 'faint object' > 4. atiparitta-arammana or 'very faint object' > > I think, this is my own opinion, that there is no clear object or > faint object from perspective of rupa side. All rupa of panca- > arammanas are the same in terms of their life span that is 17 citta- > kkhanas. The classification of very clear, clear, faint, and very > faint are from the view point of viewers or perceivers. > > This means that any object is fully apperceived after the end of 7th > javana cittas. When javana cittas can arise the given object is > called clear object or mahanta-arammana and when there are 2 > tadarammana cittas along with 7 javana cittas that object is named > very clear object or atimahanta-arammana. So this is from the view > point of possibility of arising of javana cittas who are full > apperceivers. > > Objects are the same whether javana cittas arise or not. They all > will just last 17 citta-kkhanas. In faint object or paritta-arammana > there is no javana cittas at all. There are some vithi cittas but > they end up with votthapana cittas who are still unable to determine > how to apperceive. > > The object is the same at any given time that is they will last 17 > citta-kkhanas. Rupa does not need to be clear or be faint. But as > javana cittas cannot arise here it is called faint object from view > point of perceivers cittas. Votthapana cittas which is > manodvaravajjana citta cannot apperceive fully and it does not > realize the object. > > The last object called 'very faint object' or 'atiparitta-arammana' > does not have any vithi cittas. All 17 cittas during the existence of > rupa arebhavanga cittas. But there does have vibration or > tremulousness or shakiness because of arising of rupa. This object is > also counted in visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object'. > > May you all be free from suffering. > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they > will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just > give a reply to any of these posts. > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40399 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/31/04 9:22:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > > Also, I'm not sure what you mean by turning away from reasoning and > towards reality. Moments of reasoning are already moments of reality, > surely ;-)). > > =================== You are mixing levels of speech here, Jon. Of course moments of reasoning are moments of reality. Whatever arises, arises. My point is that reasoning is a poor substitute for pa~n~na. It is not a direct knowing of reality. It is at best a not overly deceptive, indirect pointing to reality, but at worst it is a seriously deceptive and defective charlatan, led by and embodying all our defilements, and posing as a shedder of light. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40400 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (211) Dear Howard, Thanks for your reply. You are right. Please see my reply below. With respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: Hi, Htoo - As I understand the following, the sort of "clarity" being dealt with pertains not to individual cittas or their arammanas, but to sequences/processes of cittas, and is a matter of how many in a process have the same "current object" as object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is true that it depend on total number of vithi cittas. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: Am I correct in my understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes. Clarity does not lie in the object or the citta. But to the sequence yes. But the illusion that I said was from view of citta especially javana cittas. If javana cittas arise then it is called clear. If there is no javana citta then it is faint. When novithi citta it is very faint. Again when clear the arising of 2 retention consciousness make very clear. As you said this clarity does not reside in citta or object. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: If I am correct or at least close to correct, then it seems to me that this notion of "clarity", as opposed, perhaps, to the clarity of clear comprehension, is a conventional property of a conventional reality, because a sequence of cittas is not a dhamma, and a characteristic of a sequence of cittas based on the "total number of vithi cittas or consciousness in procession in a given object" is also not a dhamma nor a characteristic of a dhamma. Is that not so? With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Yes, of course, Howard. You well penetrated. With much respect, Htoo Naing 40401 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 2:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhas Appear To Only Teach Abhidhamma (Was: abhidhamma - - - To ... Hi, Suan - In a message dated 12/31/04 10:05:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: > Dear Howard, Nina, Sarah, Chris F, Mike, Andrew L, Ken O and all > > How are you? And Happy New Year! > > Howard wrote: (For context, please see Howard's original post > below.) > > "I consider this to be a cart-before-the-horse formulation, Suan. I > see the Abhidhamma as a codification of the teachings in the suttas." > > I think I was not able to clearly convey to you my message about the > primacy of abhidhamma in Gotama's Taming System that is Theravada > Buddhism. Or you missed the point I was making in my original post. > > You seemed to be thinking that abhidhamma was a later development. > ------------------------------------- Howard: I do so think. ------------------------------------- > > That type of chronologizing abhidhamma should be made only by > uninformed and speculative academics such as experts in > Hermeneutics. The expression "speculative academics" here refers to > those who are neither followers of Gotama nor practitioners of his > teachings. ------------------------------------ Howard: That is your claim. I see no justification for it. In any case, there are many "academics" who are serious and devoted followers of the Dhamma who view Abhidhamma as a later development. Also, there are many monks such as Ven Nyanaponika and Bhikkhu Bodhi also, I believe, who recognize the Abhidhamma as a later development. I think that one shouldn't rush to condemn people for taking a different position on an issue than one's own. --------------------------------- > > Traditional understanding of typecasting between Suttam and > Abhidhamma is to do with the style of presentation, not with their > contents. > > The contents of both Suttam Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka are the > same dhammaa - the four ultiamte realities: mind, mental associates, > matter and nibbaana. > > As Atthasaalinii put it, > > "Suttantañhi patvaa pañcakkhandhaa ekadeseneva vibhattaa, na > nippadesena; abhidhammam patvaa pana suttantabhaajaniiya > abhidhammabhaajaniiya pañhapucchakanayaanam vasena nippadesato > vibhattaa." Nidaanakathaa, Atthasaalinii. > > "When getting to Suttanta, the five aggregates are analysed only > partially, not fully. When getting to Abhidhamma, though, they are > analysed exhaustively by means of Suttanta analysis, Abhidhamma > analysis and Questioning methods." ... (Continue with other > groupings of dhammaa such as Venues (Aayatana), Elements (Dhaatu), > Truths (Saccaa) and so on...) Page 2, Introduction, Atthasaalinii. > > And, I have been proposing to regard the four ultimate realities as > units of abhidhamma wherever they are found textually - be they in > Suttanta Pitaka, or Vinaya Pitaka, or Abhidhamma Pitaka. > > In short, I have been declaring the reality units, their conditions > and relations as abhidhammaa. > > Now, Howard, how do you feel about such a proposal and such a > declaration. > ----------------------------------- Howard: I see no need for a generalized use of the term 'abhidhamma'. I think it only serves to confuse. The term 'Dhamma' is quite good enough. Parts of the Dhamma are figurative and not very detailed, and other parts are more literal and detailed. But it is all Dhamma, and all good. I see the Abhidhamma as consisting of the content of the 7 books of the Theravadin Abhidhamma Pitaka, and I see it as a brilliant attempt at codifying and enlarging upon the more literal material in the suttas in a context-independent fashion. ------------------------------------------- > > Happy New Year To All! > > With regards, > > Suan > ======================= Happy New Year to you, Suan! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40402 From: nina Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:48am Subject: sutta, to Phil Hi Phil, We spoke several times about meditation subjects for all occasions, and among these the recollection of the Buddha. I came across a sutta, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-013.html We read that Mahaanama asks the Buddha in whose way of living he should live. The Co explains that for a layman this is living with the Dhamma, not solitary life. Mahanama was a sotaapanna, and that means that he could attain access concentration with this subject. Jhana is not possible, because this subject is too deep. The Buddha said to him, that he should recollect: < 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' "Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Sangha while you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting in your home crowded with children.> I like this passage, it shows that he can apply to this meditation subject naturally, because the right condiitons are present. He had an unshakable confidence in the Buddha. Lodewijk said that because of his sutta readings he sees that they all deal with Abhidhamma, they explain seeing, hearing, etc. He also said that you should read my e book Introduction to the Buddhist Scriptures, since I mainly quote suttas there. You may find it on zolag. He instigated me to write this some years ago. Nina. 40403 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections , Vibhanga. Dear Sarah, I would like to add something. When we refer to wise attention, it is not the cetasika manasikara but the mind-door adverting consciousness that is followed by javana cittas, kusala cittas or akusala cittas. This is called javana patipada or controller of the javanas. Another citta called manasikara is the five sense-door advertinng consciousness, the controller of the sense-door process. Thus, manasikara can refer to cetasika and to two cittas. Nina. op 31-12-2004 10:49 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > Of course, manasikara is a universal too which arises > with all jaatis and when it is kusala or akusala conditions the > accompanying feeling etc, 40404 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:28am Subject: Re: sutta, to Phil Dear Nina, In the most recent message to Phil you wrote: N: Mahanama was a sotaapanna, and that means that he could attain access concentration with this subject. Jhana is not possible, because this subject is too deep. The Buddha said to him, that he should recollect: .... .... "Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Sangha while you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting in your home crowded with children.> I like this passage, it shows that he can apply to this meditation subject naturally, because the right condiitons are present. He had an unshakable confidence in the Buddha. T: I think I understand the above to mean that recollection is a meditation subject that can be effectively applied off the cushion, but it cannot be used to attain jhana because it (recollection) is too deep. I am not sure that my understanding is correct because a deep meditation suject should enhance jhana better than a shallow one. I also would like to observe that your referenced sutta, AN XI.13, states that recollection is to be developed after one has developed the 5 qualities (indriya) that include concentration (jhana), not the other way around. "One who is aroused to practice is one of conviction, not without conviction. One aroused to practice is one with persistence aroused, not lazy. One aroused to practice is one of established mindfulness, not muddled mindfulness. One aroused to practice is centered in concentration, not uncentered. One aroused to practice is discerning, not undiscerning. "Established in these five qualities, you should further develop six qualities..." (the six recollections). Kindest regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina wrote: > Hi Phil, > We spoke several times about meditation subjects for all occasions, and > among these the recollection of the Buddha. > I came across a sutta, > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-013.html > We read that Mahaanama asks the Buddha in whose way of living he should > live. The Co explains that for a layman this is living with the Dhamma, not > solitary life. > Mahanama was a sotaapanna, and that means that he could attain access > concentration with this subject. Jhana is not possible, because this subject > is too deep. > The Buddha said to him, that he should recollect: > > < 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate > in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, > unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of > divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' > "Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Sangha while you are > walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while you are lying > down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting in your home crowded > with children.> > I like this passage, it shows that he can apply to this meditation subject > naturally, because the right condiitons are present. He had an unshakable > confidence in the Buddha. > > Lodewijk said that because of his sutta readings he sees that they all deal > with Abhidhamma, they explain seeing, hearing, etc. He also said that you > should read my e book Introduction to the Buddhist Scriptures, since I > mainly quote suttas there. You may find it on zolag. He instigated me to > write this some years ago. > Nina. 40405 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:35am Subject: Re: Meditation [Reply to # 40375] Thank you very much for reviewing Acariya Mun's lecture and responding to my request by giving your thoughts as follows. N: I am reticent in critizing others' articles. I want to go now straight to the Suttas. I shall repost partly what I wrote before: .... There are these eighteen elements, Ånanda: the element of eye, the element of material shape, the element of visual consciousness; ... ...I find the suttas very clear and direct. Abhidhamma is taught in the suttas, as Suan recently stressed. .... Each element (except nibbana, which is the uncondiitoned element) can only arise when there are the right conditions. We can read it, hear it, but we may not have thoroughly considered the truth. It has to go into our bones. Such firm understanding is the condition for the arising of sati sampajanna. Direct understanding eliminates doubt and confidence grows. T: The 4 basic elements as used by Acariya Mun (not as extensive as what you have discussed) are associated with kayagatasati kammatthana bhavana helps train mind to cut through the ignorance that one's own nama-rupa is a being, the 'I am' belief. Acariya Mun made it clear that with such kammatthana bhavana as a firm foundation, one can gain "direct understanding" that "eliminates doubt" about nama and rupa -- i.e. the 'correct seeing of mind-and-body' . Kindest regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > I read the article. > A. Mun said: The mind is bound to converge in a big way; and the instant it > converges, 40406 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi Howard In a message dated 12/31/2004 6:58:49 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Hi, all - The Sabba Sutta spells out all that there is as follows: ---------------------------------------- "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1 ] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." ---------------------------------------- I'm not so pleased with the use of the phrase 'intellect & ideas' in the foregoing translation. I believe that 'mind door & mind-door objects' would heve been better. (I don't know what the Pali is - perhaps 'mano'?) In any case, I know that Abhidhamma includes nibbana among the mind-door objects, and that is fine with me, though in a way, it seems to constrain the unconstrained or make conditioned the unconditioned. But there is another possible problem, it seems, with the idea of nibbana as mind-door object. Consider, if you will the following sutta: -------------------------------------- Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.24 TG: I think the translation is OK. To be consistent with the first 5 groups, the last should probably be "brain and mentality." But since the brain is not used or even conceded as the material foundation for mentality in the Buddha's time, I think mind would be the better choice. As far as 'mind door & mind-door objects' is concerned, I think that would be tragic. Those are clearly abhidhamma systems of thought and I have never seen any translator, even those like B. Bodhi who seem very favorable to Abhidhamma, translate them in that way. I guess I rather have a bad translation than one that was intentionally corrupting the presentation of the teachings. Pahanaya Sutta To Be Abandoned Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. "Monks, I will teach you the All as a phenomenon to be abandoned. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "And which All is a phenomenon to be abandoned? The eye is to be abandoned. [1] Forms are to be abandoned. Consciousness at the eye is to be abandoned. Contact at the eye is to be abandoned. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too is to be abandoned. "The ear is to be abandoned. Sounds are to be abandoned... "The nose is to be abandoned. Aromas are to be abandoned... "The tongue is to be abandoned. Flavors are to be abandoned... "The body is to be abandoned. Tactile sensations are to be abandoned... "The intellect is to be abandoned. Ideas are to be abandoned. Consciousness at the intellect is to be abandoned. Contact at the intellect is to be abandoned. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too is to be abandoned. "This is called the All as a phenomenon to be abandoned." --------------------------------- Now, if we are to be consistent, and understand 'intellect' simply be a poor alternative for 'mind', and 'ideas' a poor alternative for 'mind-door object', and if nibbana is to be considered a mind-door object, then this talks about abandoning nibbana, an idea that might be found objectionable, for why should the one true refuge be abandoned! A couple attempt at solutions present themselves to me, as follows: 1) To abandon nibbana means to not grasp onto it; to relinquish even that, because to fully realize nibbana, our relinquishing must be complete, without remnant. 2) To abandon may mean more than just to not grasp at; it may mean literally to leave in the dust, *but* the phrase "to be abandoned" is, and Jon will love this, descriptive, and not prescriptive. Nibbana, in its full and final realization, *will* be entirely abandoned, because in the very realizing of nibbana, all is abandoned. This "solution" is reminiscent of Nagarjuna's "emptiness of emptiness" - that even ultimate emptiness is empty. I, myself, prefer the first "solution", as I see it as simpler, less metaphysical, and quite adequate. Thoughts anyone? With metta, Howard TG: That's a lot of "ifs" based on a lot of "ifs." To my knowledge, there is no Sutta support to describe Nibbana as a "mind door object." What I find interesting about this post is that the Buddha tells us -- "TO ABANDON" "The All." He does not instruct us to see these things as ultimate realities. The Buddha does teach us to be aware of states as impermanent, suffering, and not-self. And that by doing so, insight can deepen until abandonment occurs. TG 40407 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi, TG - In a message dated 12/31/04 2:42:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > TG: I think the translation is OK. To be consistent with the first 5 > groups, the last should probably be "brain and mentality." But since the > brain is > not used or even conceded as the material foundation for mentality in the > Buddha's time, I think mind would be the better choice. > > As far as 'mind door &mind-door objects' is concerned, I think that would be > > tragic. Those are clearly abhidhamma systems of thought and I have never > seen any translator, even those like B. Bodhi who seem very favorable to > Abhidhamma, translate them in that way. > I guess I rather have a bad translation than one that was intentionally > corrupting the presentation of the teachings. > ========================== I think that "mind & mind-objects" is far superior to "intellect & ideas". The choice of "intellect & ideas" is far too restrictive, The term 'intellect' refers to conceptualization and thinking, and ideas are far from all that is needed as mental portion of "the all". What about feelings and emotions? These are directly experienced through the mind, not as concepts and not by intellect. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40408 From: nina Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 0:36pm Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 127, correction Visuddhimagga XIV, 127 and Tiika: A correction: at the end, just before Conclusion: N: When lokuttara jhaanacittas are taken into account, cittas are counted as hundred and twentyone. When we subtract sixtytwo cittas with happy feeling, the two kinds of bodyconsciousness with bodily feelings of pain and pleasure and the two cittas rooted in dosa accompanied by unhappy feeling, there are fiftytwo types left and these are accompanied by indifferent feeling. change fiftytwo into:fiftyfive types left and these are accompanied by indifferent feeling. ****** ********** Nina. 40409 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 127 and Tiika Dear Htoo, thank you very much. I sent the correction. How can I correct? Should I repost the whole? Nina op 31-12-2004 12:40 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > In your opening of this mail the numbers are right. But later, you > said 'there are fiftytwo types left and these are accompanied by > indifferent feeling'. There are 55 upekkha cittas out of 121 total > cittas. 62 are somanassa cittas, 1 sukha citta, 1 dukkha citta, 2 > domanassa cittas (121 - 66 = 55 cittas not 52 cittas). 40410 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana In a message dated 12/31/2004 12:16:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: I think that "mind & mind-objects" is far superior to "intellect & ideas". The choice of "intellect & ideas" is far too restrictive, The term 'intellect' refers to conceptualization and thinking, and ideas are far from all that is needed as mental portion of "the all". What about feelings and emotions? These are directly experienced through the mind, not as concepts and not by intellect. With metta, Howard Hi Howard I agree with you completely here. Thanissaro Bhikkhu is one of my least favorite translators. (Not sure if he did this passage.) It seems like he is always struggling to come up with terms that no one else is using and not only does this create inconsistancies, it seems perfectly good terms are replaced by poor substitutes. Unless its a clear improvement, I think its a shame to make the mind have to struggle with figuring out yet another term to mean the same thing. Keep It Simple for us simpletons please! TG 40411 From: Egbert Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:52pm Subject: Re: Apologies to the bees Hi Sarah, (James and everyone,) May the 2005th rotation of the Earth around the Sun since the birth of a certain Palestinian wash over us without attachment. Or the short version; happy 2005! I have been following the discussion with interest ( a Dutch interest, not an English one :-) I have some speculative questions. > …. > S:All wrong views are included in the 62 speculative views mentioned here. > They are all eradicated when sakkaya –ditthi (wrong view of self) is > eradicated. > …. > >J:….For example, in my previous > > post on this thread I quoted two stanzas of the Sallekha Sutta with > > one note of commentary and you have responded in this post with six > > paragraphs of the introduction by Nyanaponika, three stanzas of the > > sutta, and 10 commentary notes! > … Do bees have self-view? By which I mean, is there the thought "Look at me I am a bee flying to my hive in 2005" :-) Or does the designation of there being a bee only come from a being with self-view, who is just ignorantly (in a nice way) projecting self-view around onto all and sundry? If bees do not have self-view, why is it considered bad to be born as a bee while there is agreement that self-view is the pits? If bees do not have self-view, there certainly is no dependent origination going on there, and "So the life of a bee is free from the misery that doth accompany the thought "I am me" :-) With due deference to Monty Python Kind Regards Herman 40412 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi, TG - In a message dated 12/31/04 4:04:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > In a message dated 12/31/2004 12:16:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, > upasaka@a... writes: > I think that "mind &mind-objects" is far superior to "intellect & > ideas". The choice of "intellect &ideas" is far too restrictive, The term > 'intellect' refers to conceptualization and thinking, and ideas are far from > > all > that is needed as mental portion of "the all". What about feelings and > emotions? > These are directly experienced through the mind, not as concepts and not by > intellect. > > With metta, > Howard > > Hi Howard > > I agree with you completely here. Thanissaro Bhikkhu is one of my least > favorite translators. (Not sure if he did this passage.) It seems like he > is > always struggling to come up with terms that no one else is using and not > only > does this create inconsistancies, it seems perfectly good terms are replaced > by > poor substitutes. Unless its a clear improvement, I think its a shame to > make > the mind have to struggle with figuring out yet another term to mean the > same > thing. > > Keep It Simple for us simpletons please! > > TG > ===================== Yay! I just *love* ending the year on a note of agreement!! :-) Happy New Year, TG! [Oh, and yes - it *is* Ven. Thanissaro's translation.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40413 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies to the bees Hi, Herman - In a message dated 12/31/04 4:53:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Do bees have self-view? > > By which I mean, is there the thought > > "Look at me > I am a bee > flying to my hive > in 2005" > > :-) > > Or does the designation of there being a bee only come from a being > with self-view, who is just ignorantly (in a nice way) projecting > self-view around onto all and sundry? > > If bees do not have self-view, why is it considered bad to be born > as a bee while there is agreement that self-view is the pits? If > bees do not have self-view, there certainly is no dependent > origination going on there, and > > "So the life of a bee > is free from the misery > that doth accompany > the thought "I am me" > > :-) > > With due deference to Monty Python > > ===================== That's cute material, Herman. :-) It's actually also an interesting question. One would, based on new-agey thinking, consider a human being closer to enlightenment (or "more advanced") than a bee! And one would also, at first look, presume a bee to be free of self-view, being free presumably of *all* conceptualization, and consider that a problem in light of having wrong view being a negative. I would address those two points as follows: 1) A particular bee might very well be far closer to enlightenment than any of us! The bee was born as such due to particular kamma coming to the fore. The bee lives for brief while, and then might well be born in a high heaven realm or as a human, and what his/her accumulations are is quite unknown to us. This, in fact, is something we should keep in mind when we think it is "not so bad" to kill an insect. That insect might well be the next Buddha! 2) While during his/her lifetime as a bee, presumably the conceptual faculties are nil or close to nil, but the deep-set anusaya to wrong view would still be present and simply not producing active outflowings at the moment. With honey-sweet metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40414 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 3:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections , Vibhanga. Dear Nina, --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Dear Sarah, > I would like to add something. > When we refer to wise attention, it is not the cetasika manasikara but > the > mind-door adverting consciousness that is followed by javana cittas, > kusala > cittas or akusala cittas. .... S: Thank you for this - I remember K.Sujin talking about the different meanings of manasikara in India, but I had thought when 'wise' and 'unwise' were included that it was then always referring to the cetasika rather than the mind-door adverting. This is interesting (Dutch use!!).Thank you. (Mike,pls take note....) Metta, Sarah This is called javana patipada or controller > of > the javanas. Another citta called manasikara is the five sense-door > advertinng consciousness, the controller of the sense-door process. > Thus, > manasikara can refer to cetasika and to two cittas. > Nina. > op 31-12-2004 10:49 schreef sarah abbott op 40415 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Indroduction To Sarah You are welcome Sarah ----- Original Message ----- From: sarah abbott To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Indroduction Hi Charles, I just wished to thank you for kindly giving the extra intro details. <....> 40416 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Dear James, Do you believe the "only" goal of the Buddha was to find the way(s) by which suffering would be brought to and end? Do you believe the Buddha found that way(s) and documented (dictated) it in his Dharma (i.e., sutras and vinya)? If so then please look at the sutras and vinya for the answer. In summary: The Buddha often mentioned gods in the sutras, and I don't recall ever reading that the Buddha thought that they were just figments of imagination; in fact, he even defined a God realm as part of semsaric existence. So, in this sense, the gods are real. Therefore, it can not be a false view (a lie) to believe in their relative, or semsaric, existence. The Buddha also declared in the sutras that the gods suffered too, that is why even they listen to his Dharma, and some are freed from it. Now, "what is that false view": The sutras often stated that one is freed from suffering by one's own efforts, and not by that of others ( to me this is the essence of the Dharma). The sutras explicitly states that sacrifices and rituals devoted to the gods will not free you from suffering. To believe so would be a contradiction, a false view. In my opinion: The Buddha pointed out the way to be freed from suffering, he called it the 8-fold path. The gods are not listed as part of this way. To believe other will only distract you from the real work (the 8-fold path). Now don't get me wrong, I am also a born again Christian; So I whole hearted believe in God; I just don't believe God is responsible for my suffering. If you need the sutra references, I will find them but it will take some time, so please remind me if I take too long. Charles D PS: This is a quick response; if I am not close to what you need to hear, please ask ... (more details can be provided). ----- Original Message ----- From: buddhatrue To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 11:36 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Friend Charles, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > (2) The wrong view would be to believe that these gods could free you from suffering; to believe in their existence is not a wrong view. Why? <...> 40417 From: Munawwar Siddique Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 11:23am Subject: 'Hello' Greetings! all, I am a practising Muslim interested in the study of comparative religion. I see a convergence in the paths of of Abidhamma and Tasawwuf. Peace! Munawwar 40418 From: Egbert Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi Charles, (James and all), My name is Herman Hofman, an on-again-off-again member of the list for 3 or 4 years now. Born in Holland, now resident in Australia. At one time I was a born-again, filled with the Spirit minister in a Pentacostal church. It is nice to make your acquiantance :-) I was especially interested to read that you were a resident of Denmark (a wonderful society of which I have the fondest memories) and that you are a born-again Christian. If I could ask you a question. When you say that you believe in God is that One God or a God? Does One God or a God do anything besides being a subject of your belief :-)? Purely out of curiousity, and because I fought with "God" and "God lost. All the best to you Herman > Now don't get me wrong, I am also a born again Christian; So I whole hearted believe in God; I just don't believe God is responsible for my suffering. > > If you need the sutra references, I will find them but it will take some time, so please remind me if I take too long. > > > Charles D > > PS: This is a quick response; if I am not close to what you need to hear, please ask ... (more details can be provided). > 40419 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Hello' Hi Munawwar, Welcome to the group. Could you expand on your comment below. The rule here is to stay on topic (Theravada Buddhadhamma). So if you tied your observations into that and didn't go too far afield, that might do. What is "Tasawwuf"? Larry ---------------------------- M: "Greetings! all, I am a practising Muslim interested in the study of comparative religion. I see a convergence in the paths of of Abidhamma and Tasawwuf. Peace! Munawwar" 40420 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Visuddhimagga XIV, 127 and Tiika Hi Nina, I've had a head cold for the last few days but this post is like a soothing medicinal tea. Well done. Larry 40421 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi Howard and TG, B. Bodhi's notes to these two suttas indicate that the commentary doesn't include nbbana in the "all" here. Particularly in regard to the second sutta it is consciousnesses that are abandoned, not objects of consciousness. Sorry I can't type this out in more detail. Sick head :x(( Larry ps: This post was typed with sick head and healthy finger. Dependently Arising New Year Happy Happy! L. 40422 From: mnease Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 7:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections , Vibhanga. Hi Sarah and Nina, Yes, Sarah, note taken. So often these are matters of context. The distinction is often almost dimensional it seems to me. mike p.s. I've referred back to the Dispeller of Delusion (that you and Jon sent me years ago) at your suggestion. What an utterly astonishing book. Can't recommend it highly enough to anyone interested in abhidhamma. ----- Original Message ----- From: "sarah abbott" To: Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections , Vibhanga. > > Dear Nina, > > --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > > > Dear Sarah, > > I would like to add something. > > When we refer to wise attention, it is not the cetasika manasikara but > > the > > mind-door adverting consciousness that is followed by javana cittas, > > kusala > > cittas or akusala cittas. > .... > S: Thank you for this - I remember K.Sujin talking about the different > meanings of manasikara in India, but I had thought when 'wise' and > 'unwise' were included that it was then always referring to the cetasika > rather than the mind-door adverting. This is interesting (Dutch > use!!).Thank you. > > (Mike,pls take note....) > > Metta, > > Sarah > > This is called javana patipada or controller > > of > > the javanas. Another citta called manasikara is the five sense-door > > advertinng consciousness, the controller of the sense-door process. > > Thus, > > manasikara can refer to cetasika and to two cittas. > > Nina. 40423 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Apologies to the bees --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > : > 1) A particular bee might very well be far closer to enlightenment > than any of us! The bee was born as such due to particular kamma coming to the > fore. The bee lives for brief while, and then might well be born in a high > heaven realm or as a human, and what his/her accumulations are is quite unknown to > us. ======= Dear Howard, yes, very true. Robert 40424 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi Mike and Charles, Still catching up on my DSG reading during a hectic holiday period, I see that Mike wrote: ------------------------------- > Excellent points IMHO, particularly (2). As I see it micchaadi.t.thi has a very specific meaning in the texts and does not refer simply to incorrect ideas in general. > ------------------------------- I agree: miccha-ditthi is a denial of samma-ditthi and samma-ditthi has nothing to do with the weather, kings, armies or other worldly concerns. ------------- M: > By the way, I think micchaadi.t.thi can be either paramattha dhamma or pa.n.natti. I'd welcome any comments on this idea. > ------------ I don't think we can narrow pannatti down to right or wrong. It can be the object of right or wrong understanding, but it can never have qualities of its own. When, for example, we are considering the concept, "Good deeds and bad deeds will bring their own results," there can moments of right understanding. But that sentence is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong. In short, my comment would be; miccha-ditthi is a cetasika: pannatti is, at best, a conventional method by which micchi-ditthi can be described. Ken H > > > > (2) The wrong view would be to believe that these gods could free you from > > suffering; to believe in their existence is not a wrong view. > 40425 From: mnease Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 7:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi Tep, Interesting, not at all 'our' usual translation. Naama and ruupa have many different meanings dependent on context by my reading. Would like to read more, with support from the texts if possible, for the rendering of 'naamaruupapariccheda' as 'correct seeing of mind-and-body' . Thanks in advance, mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 9:35 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation T: The 4 basic elements as used by Acariya Mun (not as extensive as what you have discussed) are associated with kayagatasati kammatthana bhavana helps train mind to cut through the ignorance that one's own nama-rupa is a being, the 'I am' belief. Acariya Mun made it clear that with such kammatthana bhavana as a firm foundation, one can gain "direct understanding" that "eliminates doubt" about nama and rupa -- i.e. the 'correct seeing of mind-and-body' . 40426 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies to the bees Hi Herman, --- Egbert wrote: > "Look at me > I am a bee > flying to my hive > in 2005" > > :-) .... S: Ah, bzz, bzzz bee... ... > "So the life of a bee > is free from the misery > that doth accompany > the thought "I am me" > > :-) ... S: No thought "I am me" Means no chance to see What lurks for poor bee Buzzing round, not free :-( .... A Hppy New year to you and your family too:-) Metta, Sarah ========= 40427 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi, Howard Well it's nice to be able to begin the new year on a point of agreement ;-)). upasaka@a... wrote: > ... Of course moments of reasoning are moments of reality. Whatever > arises, arises. My point is that reasoning is a poor substitute for > pa~n~na. It is not a direct knowing of reality. It is at best a not > overly deceptive, indirect pointing to reality, but at worst it is a > seriously deceptive and defective charlatan, led by and embodying all > our defilements, and posing as a shedder of light. I agree with your comments here, and would only add that what we call reasoning is really just a kind of thinking and as such may be kusala or akusala, depending not on the subject-matter of the reasoning but the nature of the mental state of the moment. In that case I think we can say that reasoning per se has nothing to do with panna of the path. However, reflection on things heard or read from the teachings (whether in the guise of the teachings or in some other guise) and understood at an intellectual level is another matter altogether and is an indispensable precondition to the arising of panna of the path. Now some such useful reflection may also fall under the description of 'reasoning', but its value to the path lies in its being useful reflection rather than in its being reasoning, I would say. Happy New Year to you and to all. Jon 40428 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Hello' Hi, Munawwar Welcome to the list from me. If you are interested in finding out more about the Abhidhamma, I think you have come to the right place. As a member pointed out in a recent post, the Abhidhamma is a presentation of the teaching that is called the Dhamma. That teaching describes the way things truly are at the present moment, and the way of escape from the round of birth and death of which this present life is but one fleeting moment. Jon Munawwar Siddique wrote: >Greetings! all, > >I am a practising Muslim interested in the study of >comparative religion. I see a convergence in the paths >of of Abidhamma and Tasawwuf. > >Peace! > >Munawwar > 40429 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi, Mike m. nease wrote: ... >>(For the enlightened being, conceptual thinking still occurs, >>but it is not mistaken for reality.) >> >> > >Yes, samaasankappa of the eightfold path, then just kiriya-- > > Yes, for the fully enlightened being all the javana cittas are kiriya cittas -- no more kusala or akusala cittas. >Incredible but true (I think) that even the views of stream entrants, >once-returners and non-returners are perverted, tainted and fettered... >Even our grail, sammaasati, until arahatta...but di.t.thi is something else. > > The javana cittas of the stream entrant of course will still be kusala or akusala, but when it comes to the holding of views those cittas will always be kusala -- all tendencies to perceive things in a way that is not not in accordance with the way things truly are have been eradicated, and remaining tendencies to other forms of akusala are (momentarily) dormant. >Those who mistake the unessential to be essential >and the essential to be unessential, >dwelling in wrong thoughts, >never arrive at the essential. (That's 'me'). > >Dhammapada 11 > > A good quote, Mike (And it's all of us!) Jon 40430 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi, Larry (and TG) - In a message dated 12/31/04 8:26:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard and TG, > > B. Bodhi's notes to these two suttas indicate that the commentary > doesn't include nbbana in the "all" here. Particularly in regard to the > second sutta it is consciousnesses that are abandoned, not objects of > consciousness. > --------------------------------------- Howard: If the venerable believes that nibbana is not included, then he must not consider nibbana as a possible mind-door object, and that implies that he rejects at least one Abhidhammic teaching! (Interesting.) I disagree with your statement "Particularly in regard to the second sutta it is consciousnesses that are abandoned, not objects of consciousness." Consider the following from that sutta: "And which All is a phenomenon to be abandoned? The eye is to be abandoned. [1] Forms are to be abandoned. Consciousness at the eye is to be abandoned. Contact at the eye is to be abandoned. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye -- experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain -- that too is to be abandoned." That's a lot more than consciousness, Larry. In particular, forms are included, the objects of eye consciousness. ---------------------------------------- > > Sorry I can't type this out in more detail. Sick head :x(( > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I'm sorry you're not feeling well. Feel better soon! ---------------------------------------- > > Larry > > ps: This post was typed with sick head and healthy finger. Dependently > Arising New Year Happy Happy! L. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Happy New Year to you, Larry! :-) ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40431 From: Date: Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities ... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/31/04 11:57:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > Happy New Year to you and to all. > ================== The same to you, Jon. All the best! :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40432 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 1:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Apologies Friend Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Friend James, .... > > Sarah: All wrong views are included in the 62 speculative views > > mentioned here. They are all eradicated when sakkaya –ditthi (wrong > > view of self) is eradicated. > S: In the Brahmajala Sutta itself, given by the Buddha and the very first > sutta recited at the First Council;-). > > At the end of each section, The Buddha says: "Outside of these there is > none". They are all -inclusive.This is why it is called Brahmajala or 'The > All-embracing Net of Views'. Now we are starting to get into some very deep waters and I need some time to do some research. Though it may appear, on the surface, that you are correct in what you are saying, I have a sense that you are not correct. I still believe that the commentaries are wrong; call it my instinct if you will. I believe that this issue is far more complicated that those sixty-two false views given in the Brahmajala Sutta. I will give you some idea of where I am heading with this by quoting Bhikkhu Nanananda from "Concept and Reality": "There is, however, a widespread tendency to define the word "ditthi" in such contexts strictly to mean the traditional list of sixty-two false views (miccha-ditthi) as given in the Brahmajala Sutta (D.N.). This tendency is evident in the commentaries, which, while defining `tanha' and `mana' in a more elementary form as to be comprehensive, take great care to be more specific in the case of `ditthi'. This may be partly due to the complacent belief that the list of sixty-two comprehends all possible forms of ditthi, and partly also to a desire to safeguard `Right-view' (samma-ditthi). But it appears that this commentarial definition has created new problems. `Ditthi' has thereby lost its fundamental significance as the deep-seated proclivity in the worldling's mind to be beguiled by concepts. If by `ditthipapanca' is meant merely the sixty-two false views, then it would be possible for the disciple of the Buddha to put an end to `ditthipapanca' by virtue of the very fact that he has given up false views. But as we have shown above, it persists even in the disciple as the notion of an ego until he attains Nibbana." (pg. 40) Anyway, please be patient while I formulate a response. ;-) Metta, James 40433 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 1:53am Subject: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Friend Jon, Jon: What I meant to ask was whether, on your reading of Right Concentration of the Nobel Eightfold Path, the attainment of the first jhana was sufficient to support enlightenment. I ask this because if it is then there should be no need to also mention the other, higher jhanas. James: I am really not quite sure what you are getting at with this question, but I thought that I already answered it in a way. It isn't possible to know if the first jhana will be enough to support enlightenment or if it will take the other jhanas. Some may achieve enlightenment while in the jhanas (like the Buddha) and some use the jhanas as a supporting condition and could achieve enlightenment while not in meditation (like Ven. Ananda). What actually causes enlightenment and a sure fire way to get there are not subjects I am qualified to answer. Metta, James 40434 From: Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 2:55am Subject: Re: with clinging to self, conceit arises Dear Icaro, While anger, which is akusala, arises, it is impossible for kusala to arise at the same time. No understanding could possibly arise when anger is present. Therefore, in your hatred of Russians you missed the chance to understand something about anatta. That was clearly shown in your second outburst against Russians, which Sarah and Jon rightfully expunged from the records. However, you also missed the chance to understand something of the nature of realities and the concepts the "mind" builds from these realities. The United States is a concept, it is not a reality, just as Russia and Russians are not realities either. Please take the time to read and contemplate the book "Realities and Concepts" by Sujin Boriharnwanaket at www.abhidhamma.org , under contents. This is a section from her excellent work called Survey of Paramattha Dhammas, but it is a wonderful explanation of the difference between realities and that which are termed concepts. with metta and karuna, Betty ------------------- >There is > nothing for "us" to attach to because there is no "us", Wrong! The U.S. exists undoubtfully! Mettaya, Ícaro 40435 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 5:52am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 89 - Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (a) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== Chapter 5 Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death Cetanå, volition, is a cetasika which arises with every citta, as we have seen. Seeing, hearing or thinking which arise now are accompanied by cetanå. Every type of cetanå performs the function of coordinating the different tasks of the accompanying dhammas, no matter whether the citta is kusala citta, akusala citta, vipåkacitta or kiriyacitta. When cetanå accompanies kusala citta or akusala citta it performs, besides the function of coordinating, another function: it “wills” kusala or akusala and it can motivate a wholesome or an unwholesome deed through body, speech or mind. Kusala cetanå and akusala cetanå, which are actually kusala kamma and akusala kamma, are capable of producing the appropriate results of the deeds they motivated. Kusala kamma and akusala kamma can produce results in the form of rebirth-consciousness in different planes of existence or in the form of vipåkacittas which arise in the course of one’s life, such as seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting or the experience of tangibles through the body-sense. We experience pleasant objects and unpleasant objects through the senses and it depends on kamma whether we have a pleasant experience or an unpleasant experience through these senses. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40436 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 6:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Phil Thanks for sharing these thoughts. Philip wrote: > Hi Jon, Herman and all > >... I do notice that during the days on >which I have not been posting, there is less thinking about Dhamma >and *possibly* more bare awareness. It is still shallow awareness, >but I don't get caught up in concepts to quite the same degree. > We all have a tendency to the view that thinking of the kind described as 'getting caught up in concepts' and awareness are mutually exclusive occurrences or at the very least that the former makes the latter a lot less likely. And it is perhaps as a corollary of this kind of view that we are also likely to regard the (perceived) absence of or reduction in thinking/getting caught up in concepts as indicating the presence of more awareness. Yet I think a careful reading of the suttas shows that there can be awareness of akusala thinking just as there can be awareness of any other dhamma (kusala or akusala, nama or rupa). So perhaps the perceived lessening in levels of thinking is not as significant as we thought it to be; it may just be less of a particular kind of thinking. I do not doubt that the correlation you make here is the way it seems, but I wonder if it is useful to look for these connections. Any idea that there is more awareness when such and such is done (i.e., reading/not reading the list, following/not following a particular routine) is likely to lead us into a wrong practice of some kind as we seek to 'maximise' the chances of having more awareness. > I found this the other day, from the Devasamyutta (SN I.20) > > "Being who perceive what can be expressed > become established in what can be expressed > Not fully understanding what can be expressed > they come under the yoke of death." > > Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentarial notes say this about the above: > > "What can be expressed are the five aggregates. (snip) When >ordinary beings perceive the five aggregates, their perceptions are >affected by the ideas of permanence, pleasure and self, elsewhere >called "distortions." (vipasalla) These distorted perceptions then >provoke the defilements, on account of which beings "become >established in what can be expressed." > > I take this to mean that because of defilements, our thinking >about the aggregates can just subtly strengthen our clinging to them >if we're not aware of the danger of thinking too much. > Yes. Of course, the danger lies in the akusala nature of the thinking rather than thinking itself. But again, we need to resist the inclination to strive for 'having less (akusala) thinking' in the belief that this is the path taught by the Buddha. The fact is, if we are prone to the tendency to think a lot about things (and who isn't?), that tendency reflects deep-seated accumulations of that particular kind, so the scope for a significant change in the general tendency within the space of a single lifetime is limited. Now I know that some people find this prospect discouraging, but that I think is because they have the idea that akusala thinking and the development of awareness are antithetical to each other. To my understanding of the teachings, however, that not the case; if it was then the development of the path would be a practical impossibililty, so pervasive is akusala in our makeup. It is I think encouraging to realise that, according to the teachings, awareness can be developed regardless of the nature of the present mind-state, even if that seems a remote prospect for us personally at this moment. Confidence in the teachings will make it possible for us to resist the temptation to think there is a way of having 'more awareness sooner', or that 'if I put enough effort into it it will happen'.. > I think this >is why I was so encouraged and calmed-down by hearing that >audio clip of K Sujin, and I think this is why she always gets people >back to asking themselves about the realities of them moment. It must >be frustrating in a sense for beginners to discuss Dhamma with her >because we have all our speculative theories that we carry around >with us from reading, and want to have them confirmed, but she spares >us from that. Nina is also very helpful there. > > I couldn't agree with you more! We are very fortunate to have these good friends. Jon 40437 From: Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi, Jon (and Phil) - In a message dated 1/1/05 9:09:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes, quoting Phil: > > I take this to mean that because of defilements, our thinking > >about the aggregates can just subtly strengthen our clinging to them > >if we're not aware of the danger of thinking too much. > > > > Yes. Of course, the danger lies in the akusala nature of the thinking > rather than thinking itself. But again, we need to resist the > inclination to strive for 'having less (akusala) thinking' in the belief > that this is the path taught by the Buddha. > =========================== Well, as to what the Buddha taught in this regard, there is the following: > "And what, monks, is right effort? [i] "There is the case where a monk > generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent > for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not > yet arisen. [ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, > upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful > qualities that have arisen. [iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates > persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful > qualities that have not yet arisen. [iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, > activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, > non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities > that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort." > >> -- SN XLV.8 > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40438 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi Howard, No need to torture oneself to look for solutions what to include in the all, and what not. We just have to look at the context. In one context something means this, in another one it means something else. It is the same with classifications of the Abhidhamma which are different in different contexts. The Dhamma is not rigid, classifications are not rigid, they are meant as a help for understanding. When we work this way we shall not be troubled by seemingly contradictions. Nina. op 31-12-2004 15:57 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > This is called the All as a phenomenon to be abandoned." 40439 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 7:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (212), submoments Dear Htoo, Thank you. I like your similes. man running is also in the Tiika, and then you made it clear with the warning shots, etc. I like it. When the reader hears about submoments he may have questions why. I could add something from my Thai translation to help here. Nina. op 31-12-2004 15:49 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > When rupas which can serve as arammanas or objects for attention of > cittas arise they just last 17 citta-kkhanas. These 17 citta-kkhanas > again comprise 51 anukhanas or 51 sub-moments. Among these 51 > submoments of rupa the first sub-moment is so weak that rupa cannot > still serve as an object for citta. It becomes powerful to serve as > an object starts from 2nd sub-moment till 50th sub-moment. The 51st > submoment becomes weak again because it is disappearing or aniccata > of that given rupa. 40440 From: Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 5:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi Charles, James I'm going to jump in on this one if you don't mind... In a message dated 12/31/2004 3:19:06 PM Pacific Standard Time, dacostas@P... writes: Dear James, Do you believe the "only" goal of the Buddha was to find the way(s) by which suffering would be brought to and end? TG: First of all, the Buddha himself in several places in the Suttas declares that "the only thing" he teaches is suffering and the relief from suffering. “…formally and also now, I make known just suffering and the ending of suffering.â€? (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 938) Do you believe the Buddha found that way(s) and documented (dictated) it in his Dharma (i.e., sutras and vinya)? If so then please look at the sutras and vinya for the answer. In summary: The Buddha often mentioned gods in the sutras, and I don't recall ever reading that the Buddha thought that they were just figments of imagination; in fact, he even defined a God realm as part of semsaric existence. So, in this sense, the gods are real. Therefore, it can not be a false view (a lie) to believe in their relative, or semsaric, existence. TG: To believe in gods solely on heresay, even of the Buddha, is pure speculation. Is pure speculation a false view? I would say, that anyone who claimed gods were real because the Buddha stated such and had no other evidence, who held onto that belief as a definite actuality, does have a false view; and a mistaken approach of understanding actuality. The knowledge is unfounded...therefore its a belief that -- "one knows something" that in fact --they do not. For my money, that's a false view. On the other hand, someone who had confidence in the Buddha and heard him speak about gods, who understood that -- 'even though the Buddha may have direct knolwedge of gods, I do not.' Because such a person has high respect for the Buddha based on other types of "direct verification," this person could realize that -- 'being that I don't have direct knowledge of whether gods exist or not, but because the Buddha speaks about them, they may very well in all probablility exist, but because I don't know for sure, I will leave it "at that" until such direct knolwedge makes it something I can be sure of.' I think this type of approach would not be a false view because someone reasonably basing their knowledge on what they know and do not know. It has a foundation. The Buddha also declared in the sutras that the gods suffered too, that is why even they listen to his Dharma, and some are freed from it. Now, "what is that false view": Not 100% sure what this question is trying to ask but the response above applies. The sutras often stated that one is freed from suffering by one's own efforts, and not by that of others ( to me this is the essence of the Dharma). The sutras explicitly states that sacrifices and rituals devoted to the gods will not free you from suffering. To believe so would be a contradiction, a false view. In my opinion: The Buddha pointed out the way to be freed from suffering, he called it the 8-fold path. The gods are not listed as part of this way. To believe other will only distract you from the real work (the 8-fold path). Now don't get me wrong, I am also a born again Christian; So I whole hearted believe in God; I just don't believe God is responsible for my suffering. If you need the sutra references, I will find them but it will take some time, so please remind me if I take too long. Charles D TG Happy New Year 40441 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 11:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation, stages of insight. Hi Mike and Tep, op 02-01-2005 04:56 schreef mnease op mlnease@z...: > Would like to read > more, with support from the texts if possible, for the rendering of > 'naamaruupapariccheda' as 'correct seeing of mind-and-body' . N: naama-ruupa-pariccheda ñaa.na is the first stage of insight knowledge. See Visuddhimagga. It is still tender insight, taru.na vipassana. It is very essential, we cannot forego this beginning stage. Pañña realizes directly nama as nama and rupa as rupa, through the mind-door. Then it is also known what a mind-door process is. As I said before, now it is hidden, it seems that seeing lasts, seeing sees visible object, but it is not realized that visible object is experienced through the mind-door shortly after having been experienced by cittas of the eye-door process. When we still take nama and rupa as a whole how can the arising and falling away of realities one at a time, separately, ever be realized? We can reflect on impermanence, but that is only thinking. Tep, I like to go into the Mahanama sutta later on. There are different translations and I want to check, also my Thai text. Nina. 40442 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 11:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Hello' Dear Munawwar, Welcome here, and this is really fascinating. How do you see the Abhidhamma? From which country are you? When my husband and I were living in Indonesia we had some personal contacts with Imans and we were deeply impressed by their spiritual life. Actually, when you strive after knowing yourself more, developing understanding of your life, Abhidhamma study is perfect. Nina. op 31-12-2004 20:23 schreef Munawwar Siddique op munsidus@y...: > > I am a practising Muslim interested in the study of > comparative religion. I see a convergence in the paths > of of Abidhamma and Tasawwuf. 40443 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 11:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi Howard, I do not know much about ATI, but as I heard, John Bullit is doing a lot of work. It also seems that they keep on revising their transl, which is a good thing. Nina. op 31-12-2004 23:30 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > [Oh, and yes - it *is* Ven. Thanissaro's translation.] 40444 From: Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/1/05 2:33:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > I do not know much about ATI, but as I heard, John Bullit is doing a lot of > work. It also seems that they keep on revising their transl, which is a good > thing. > Nina. > op 31-12-2004 23:30 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >[Oh, and yes - it *is* Ven. Thanissaro's translation.] > > ========================== I'm very grateful for the site and his dedicated work! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40445 From: Larry Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 1:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry (and TG) - > > I disagree with your statement "Particularly in regard to the second > sutta it is consciousnesses that are abandoned, not objects of consciousness." Hi Howard, You're right. I misread the notes. I was referring to the line in the sutta, "The mind is abandoned, mental phenomena are to be abandoned, mind consciousness is to be abandoned..." The note to this says "mental phenomena" includes mental objects, so cessation is to be abandoned. I suppose one could interpret this the way you did, but cessation can't really be clung to in the first place so it doesn't make much sense to me to say it is to be abandoned. The note to the Sabba Sutta, which immediately precedes this one, says the "all" of this sutta is the all of the sense bases (ayatana) and this, in turn, would include nibbana, as you said. The Buddha makes one qualification though, the all of the sense bases is not all there is but only the extent of what can be known by a bhikkhu. Larry 40446 From: Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 8:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/1/05 4:29:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > The Buddha makes one qualification though, the all of the sense bases > is not all there is but only the extent of what can be known by a > bhikkhu. ==================== Could you please clarify this. I understood the "all" of the Sabba Sutta to be truly *all*. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40447 From: Egbert Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 1:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Apologies to the bees Hi Howard, RobK, Sarah (and all), Thank you for your replies. Some more buzziness below. > > Do bees have self-view? > > > > By which I mean, is there the thought > > > > "Look at me > > I am a bee > > flying to my hive > > in 2005" > > > > :-) > > > > Or does the designation of there being a bee only come from a being > > with self-view, who is just ignorantly (in a nice way) projecting > > self-view around onto all and sundry? > > > > If bees do not have self-view, why is it considered bad to be born > > as a bee while there is agreement that self-view is the pits? If > > bees do not have self-view, there certainly is no dependent > > origination going on there, and > > > > "So the life of a bee > > is free from the misery > > that doth accompany > > the thought "I am me" > > > > :-) > > > > With due deference to Monty Python > > > > > ===================== > That's cute material, Herman. :-) It's actually also an interesting > question. One would, based on new-agey thinking, consider a human being closer > to enlightenment (or "more advanced") than a bee! And one would also, at first > look, presume a bee to be free of self-view, being free presumably of *all* > conceptualization, and consider that a problem in light of having wrong view > being a negative. I would address those two points as follows: > 1) A particular bee might very well be far closer to enlightenment > than any of us! The bee was born as such due to particular kamma coming to the > fore. The bee lives for brief while, and then might well be born in a high > heaven realm or as a human, and what his/her accumulations are is quite unknown to > us. This, in fact, is something we should keep in mind when we think it is > "not so bad" to kill an insect. That insect might well be the next Buddha! ======== HH> What you say is very true and very worthwhile. And I am sure you don't mind me pointing out that these are the very true and worthwhile thoughts of a man thinking about a bee. From the point of view of the bee, presumably :-), there is no point of view. There is no bee who was born and who lives for a short while and is reborn. Neither does the bee think in terms of there being others, who s/he will sting, eat, dance with or who will possibly do this to him/her self etc etc. > 2) While during his/her lifetime as a bee, presumably the conceptual > faculties are nil or close to nil, but the deep-set anusaya to wrong view would > still be present and simply not producing active outflowings at the moment. HH >You have very clearly written what I should have written when attempting to express my dissatisfaction with terms like sotapanna, anagamin etc etc. All these designations of spiritual attainment are described in terms of and limited by time. A sotapanna is someone who does not revert to certain views, forever. When is someone a sotapanna? Well, only time will tell. If it seems that there was a hopeful candidate but who somewhere in his sixth rebirth after entering the stream reverts to self-view for a micro-second, it'll just mean s/he wasn't a sotapanna. Who is going to use the term? Only someone to whom the meaning of the term doesn't apply. Are they likely to know what it means? I wouldn't think so. ?As was previously pointed out, Nibbana and time are mutually exclusive. Spiritual achievement defined in terms of time rather than in terms of Nibbana misses the target, let alone the bullseye. Are these spiritual designations therefore useful? Back to the bee. A bee does not live in time, and being free from self-conceit generates no kamma. As to the deep-set anusaya, as you say, nobody knows if and when those will surface. In closing, a little ditty I'd rather be a bee It 'd sure beat being me As a worldling I can see That it would be so heavenly To buzz around unreflexively But for the bee There would not be even any dimensionality It is a human fantasy that projects self-hood outwardly If there is an I than that is why everything else is seen anthropomorhically You have all been very forbearing :-) Kind Regards Herman 40448 From: Larry Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 2:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 1/1/05 4:29:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... > writes: > > > The Buddha makes one qualification though, the all of the sense bases > > is not all there is but only the extent of what can be known by a > > bhikkhu. > ==================== > Could you please clarify this. I understood the "all" of the Sabba > Sutta to be truly *all*. > Hi Howard, I'm referring to this line from the sutta: "If anyone, bhikkus, should speak thus: 'Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all'--that would be a mere empty boast on his part. If he were questioned he would not be able to reply and, further, he would meet with vexation. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, that would not be within his domain." Notice the Buddha doesn't say 'because this all is all there is'. Plus I believe in another sutta the Buddha compares what he knows and what he has taught to the difference between a forest and a leaf, or something like that. B. Bodhi's note to the Sabba Sutta reads: "Spk: The all (sabba) is fourfold: (i) the all-inclusive all (sabbasabba), i.e., everything knowable, all of which comes into range of the Buddha's knowledge of omniscience; (ii) the all of the sense bases (aayatanasabba), i.e., the phenomena of the four planes; (iii) the all of personal identity (sakkaayasabba), i.e., the phenomena of the three planes; and (iv) the partial all (padesasabba), i.e., the five physical sense objects. Each of these, from (i) to (iv), has a successively narrower range than its predecessor. In this sutta the all of the sense bases is intended." Larry 40449 From: Egbert Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 2:10pm Subject: [dsg] Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Jon, (Phil and all), Sorry for butting in here. With regards to kusala and akusala thinking, kusala means different things in different contexts. Kusala thinking at a mundane level will only lead to more kusala thinking at a mundane level. These ruminations are the seeds of perpetuation, just more happy thoughts in all sorts of pleasant realms. I do not believe that the Suttas bear out a goal of eternal happiness. They do, IMHO, bear out a goal of total deliverance and extinction. In this context, a kusala thought is a thought that leads to extinguishing. A kusala thought is one that leads to the end of thinking, amongst other things. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Phil > > Thanks for sharing these thoughts. > > Philip wrote: > > > Hi Jon, Herman and all > > > >... I do notice that during the days on > >which I have not been posting, there is less thinking about Dhamma > >and *possibly* more bare awareness. It is still shallow awareness, > >but I don't get caught up in concepts to quite the same degree. > > > > We all have a tendency to the view that thinking of the kind described > as 'getting caught up in concepts' and awareness are mutually exclusive > occurrences or at the very least that the former makes the latter a lot > less likely. > > And it is perhaps as a corollary of this kind of view that we are also > likely to regard the (perceived) absence of or reduction in > thinking/getting caught up in concepts as indicating the presence of > more awareness. > > Yet I think a careful reading of the suttas shows that there can be > awareness of akusala thinking just as there can be awareness of any > other dhamma (kusala or akusala, nama or rupa). So perhaps the > perceived lessening in levels of thinking is not as significant as we > thought it to be; it may just be less of a particular kind of thinking. > > I do not doubt that the correlation you make here is the way it seems, > but I wonder if it is useful to look for these connections. Any idea > that there is more awareness when such and such is done (i.e., > reading/not reading the list, following/not following a particular > routine) is likely to lead us into a wrong practice of some kind as we > seek to 'maximise' the chances of having more awareness. > > > I found this the other day, from the Devasamyutta (SN I.20) > > > > "Being who perceive what can be expressed > > become established in what can be expressed > > Not fully understanding what can be expressed > > they come under the yoke of death." > > > > Bhikkhu Bodhi's commentarial notes say this about the above: > > > > "What can be expressed are the five aggregates. (snip) When > >ordinary beings perceive the five aggregates, their perceptions are > >affected by the ideas of permanence, pleasure and self, elsewhere > >called "distortions." (vipasalla) These distorted perceptions then > >provoke the defilements, on account of which beings "become > >established in what can be expressed." > > > > I take this to mean that because of defilements, our thinking > >about the aggregates can just subtly strengthen our clinging to them > >if we're not aware of the danger of thinking too much. > > > > Yes. Of course, the danger lies in the akusala nature of the thinking > rather than thinking itself. But again, we need to resist the > inclination to strive for 'having less (akusala) thinking' in the belief > that this is the path taught by the Buddha. The fact is, if we are > prone to the tendency to think a lot about things (and who isn't?), that > tendency reflects deep-seated accumulations of that particular kind, so > the scope for a significant change in the general tendency within the > space of a single lifetime is limited. > > Now I know that some people find this prospect discouraging, but that I > think is because they have the idea that akusala thinking and the > development of awareness are antithetical to each other. To my > understanding of the teachings, however, that not the case; if it was > then the development of the path would be a practical impossibililty, so > pervasive is akusala in our makeup. > > It is I think encouraging to realise that, according to the teachings, > awareness can be developed regardless of the nature of the present > mind-state, even if that seems a remote prospect for us personally at > this moment. Confidence in the teachings will make it possible for us > to resist the temptation to think there is a way of having 'more > awareness sooner', or that 'if I put enough effort into it it will happen'.. > > > I think this > >is why I was so encouraged and calmed-down by hearing that > >audio clip of K Sujin, and I think this is why she always gets people > >back to asking themselves about the realities of them moment. It must > >be frustrating in a sense for beginners to discuss Dhamma with her > >because we have all our speculative theories that we carry around > >with us from reading, and want to have them confirmed, but she spares > >us from that. Nina is also very helpful there. > > > > > > I couldn't agree with you more! We are very fortunate to have these > good friends. > > Jon 40450 From: Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana In a message dated 1/1/2005 2:42:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 1/1/05 4:29:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... > writes: > > > The Buddha makes one qualification though, the all of the sense bases > > is not all there is but only the extent of what can be known by a > > bhikkhu. > ==================== > Could you please clarify this. I understood the "all" of the Sabba > Sutta to be truly *all*. > Hi Howard, I'm referring to this line from the sutta: "If anyone, bhikkus, should speak thus: 'Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all'--that would be a mere empty boast on his part. If he were questioned he would not be able to reply and, further, he would meet with vexation. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, that would not be within his domain." Notice the Buddha doesn't say 'because this all is all there is'. Hi Larry and Howard Just my 2 cents worth... I interpret "the all" to mean everything that would be posible to experience because "there is nothing else to experience." When the Buddha says that "it would not be in his domain" I think that's all it means. I don't think there is an insinuation intended that there is "some other" domain. TG 40451 From: Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/1/05 5:42:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Could you please clarify this. I understood the "all" of the > Sabba > >Sutta to be truly *all*. > > > > Hi Howard, > > I'm referring to this line from the sutta: > > "If anyone, bhikkus, should speak thus: 'Having rejected this all, I > shall make known another all'--that would be a mere empty boast on > his part. If he were questioned he would not be able to reply and, > further, he would meet with vexation. For what reason? Because, > bhikkhus, that would not be within his domain." > > Notice the Buddha doesn't say 'because this all is all there is'. > ====================== It's never been quite clear to me how to interpret this, until now! Note that the Buddha said "If ANYONE [emphasis mine], bhikkus, should speak thus: 'Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all'--that would be a mere empty boast on his part." Now, is the Buddha including himself or other arahants within the "anyone"??? If so, then what does she mean? That there may be yet more than this "all", but it is beyond even him? If not, why didn't he say "any worldling", or "anyone except the Tathagatha"? I suspect that the Buddha is saying either that 1) this "all" is truly all or, 2) as a good phenomenalist, that there is nothing in-principle knowable except as falls within experience. The clause "that would not be within his domain" fits in *very* well with this second reading! Thus, I conclude this is an instance of what I and others see as the Buddha's phenomenalism, a phenomenalism expressed also in the Bahiya Sutta. And if one puts the Buddha's phenomenalism together with his pragmatism, one ends up with the "all" that the Buddha taught being effectively and pragmatically the only "all" of any concern, to anyone, anywhere. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40452 From: Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/1/05 5:55:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Larry and Howard > > Just my 2 cents worth... I interpret "the all" to mean everything that would > > be posible to experience because "there is nothing else to experience." > When > the Buddha says that "it would not be in his domain" I think that's all it > means. I don't think there is an insinuation intended that there is "some > other" > domain. > > TG > ======================== I think that what you say here may be close or even identical with my take on it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40453 From: Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 10:21am Subject: Typo Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi, all - In a message dated 1/1/05 6:17:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Now, is the Buddha including himself > or other arahants within the "anyone"??? If so, then what does she mean? > ===================== Obviously, I meant to write "he", and not "she". ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40454 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 1:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Do me a favor and translate the pali. Some of the words I can't find in my 4 dictionaries. Charles D ----- Original Message ----- From: m. nease To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 12:05 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi Charles, Excellent points IMHO, particularly (2). As I see it micchaadi.t.thi has a very specific meaning in the texts and does not refer simply to incorrect ideas in general. By the way, I think micchaadi.t.thi can be either paramattha dhamma or pa.n.natti. I'd welcome any comments on this idea. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles DaCosta" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2004 8:07 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. > (1) Indian mythology was used by most teachers in India, even by those > that did not believe the gods were real, to explain history and the facts > of life. Every culture in the world has taken this approach, especially > when it comes to teaching children. Myths often use symbolism and allegory > as nice stories and fables to educate. > > (2) The wrong view would be to believe that these gods could free you from > suffering; to believe in their existence is not a wrong view. 40455 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 2:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana This is all relative, but worth discussing. Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: upasaka@a... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 11:30 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi, TG - In a message dated 12/31/04 4:04:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > In a message dated 12/31/2004 12:16:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, > upasaka@a... writes: > I think that "mind &mind-objects" is far superior to "intellect & > ideas". The choice of "intellect &ideas" is far too restrictive, The term > 'intellect' refers to conceptualization and thinking, and ideas are far from > > all > that is needed as mental portion of "the all". What about feelings and > emotions? > These are directly experienced through the mind, not as concepts and not by > intellect. > > With metta, > Howard > > Hi Howard > > I agree with you completely here. Thanissaro Bhikkhu is one of my least > favorite translators. (Not sure if he did this passage.) It seems like he > is > always struggling to come up with terms that no one else is using and not > only > does this create inconsistancies, it seems perfectly good terms are replaced > by > poor substitutes. Unless its a clear improvement, I think its a shame to > make > the mind have to struggle with figuring out yet another term to mean the > same > thing. > > Keep It Simple for us simpletons please! > > TG > ===================== Yay! I just *love* ending the year on a note of agreement!! :-) Happy New Year, TG! [Oh, and yes - it *is* Ven. Thanissaro's translation.] With metta, Howard 40456 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 1:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Dear Herman, A God is my friend, and like most friends, we share and do things for each other. Now it is true that some would say I share with, and do for, myself and those around me. However, this is all a question of "View." As far as God being more than a subject of my belief, this is also a question of View. It is a view that I am quite comfortable with and it doesn't cause me to suffer. In a nut-shell my view is just another view of Ultimate Truth. But this truth is existence. Charles DaCosta ----- Original Message ----- From: Egbert To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 1:33 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi Charles, (James and all), My name is Herman Hofman, an on-again-off-again member of the list for 3 or 4 years now. Born in Holland, now resident in Australia. At one time I was a born-again, filled with the Spirit minister in a Pentacostal church. It is nice to make your acquiantance :-) I was especially interested to read that you were a resident of Denmark (a wonderful society of which I have the fondest memories) and that you are a born-again Christian. If I could ask you a question. When you say that you believe in God is that One God or a God? Does One God or a God do anything besides being a subject of your belief :-)? Purely out of curiousity, and because I fought with "God" and "God lost. All the best to you Herman 40457 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 3:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi TG, You stated, "........... To believe in gods solely on heresay, even of the Buddha, is pure speculation. Is pure speculation a false view? I would say, that anyone who claimed gods were real because the Buddha stated such and had no other evidence, who held onto that belief as a definite actuality, does have a false view; and a mistaken approach of understanding actuality. The knowledge is unfounded...therefore its a belief that -- "one knows something" that in fact --they do not. For my money, that's a false view." My point about the false view is not whether the idea is right or wrong. We were talking about a view that contradicts the Right View (of the 8-fold path). In this since, a false view is a view that contradicts the 4-noble truths. To hold a view that Gods exist, and they are not connected to ones suffering is not a false view in that sense because there is no contradiction. But to believe those Gods have control over (to cause and to free one from) suffering is a false view. To argue that the belief in Gods is a false view would also mean the wheel of life teaches a false view. It teaches that there is a God realm. There are also many sutras where the Buddha talks about Gods, as if they are real -- this would also mean that the Buddha teaches a false view. To believe the 4-noble truths because you herd the Buddha taught it (not because you realized it for your self) is not a false view either. I can't remember the references but many have heard the Buddha's teachings and had accepted them as truth, only to realize that truth later. Charles DaCosta ----- Original Message ----- From: TGrand458@a... To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi Charles, James I'm going to jump in on this one if you don't mind... In a message dated 12/31/2004 3:19:06 PM Pacific Standard Time, dacostas@P... writes: Dear James, Do you believe the "only" goal of the Buddha was to find the way(s) by which suffering would be brought to and end? TG: First of all, the Buddha himself in several places in the Suttas declares that "the only thing" he teaches is suffering and the relief from suffering. “…formally and also now, I make known just suffering and the ending of suffering.â€? (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 938) Do you believe the Buddha found that way(s) and documented (dictated) it in his Dharma (i.e., sutras and vinya)? If so then please look at the sutras and vinya for the answer. In summary: The Buddha often mentioned gods in the sutras, and I don't recall ever reading that the Buddha thought that they were just figments of imagination; in fact, he even defined a God realm as part of semsaric existence. So, in this sense, the gods are real. Therefore, it can not be a false view (a lie) to believe in their relative, or semsaric, existence. TG: To believe in gods solely on heresay, even of the Buddha, is pure speculation. Is pure speculation a false view? I would say, that anyone who claimed gods were real because the Buddha stated such and had no other evidence, who held onto that belief as a definite actuality, does have a false view; and a mistaken approach of understanding actuality. <.....> 40458 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 4:50pm Subject: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > > Good to be discussing the Dhamma with you again! I don't share the same sentiments. I am not certain that I an extended period of discussion on the Dharma is what I need at the moment. The direction my life is going in and the shape it will take may be without persistent discussion - IE, I set myself up with the fundamentals, understand the details, and work from there, whether this takes 7 months or 7 years. I have tried asking pertinent questions on E-Sangha for example while practising Dharma on a Friday (coming home from a meditation center or practising Joe Goldstein's "One Dharma") during my time as a patient at a day hospital program, and by Monday my question was not satisfactorily answered. There was just a disconnect between practise and anything I was trying to accomplish. So I may try to set myself up to practise rightly and see what different stages I'm at and be active here at certain times, but I don't know that I'm here to stay yet, I don't even have a good feel for Abhidharma yet. Time will tell. > > > > --- Andrew Levin wrote: > <….> > > Some of you may take it to be one nama or rupa at a time, but I see > > the material in the chapter on compendium of consciousness to be > > known as it appears in reality, as part of my practise, specifically > > related to the section of the Maha-Satipatthana Sutta regarding > > contemplation on consciousness. > …. > S: It's a good idea to compare the contents of the Abhidammattha Sangaha > (as we are reading it in CMA) with the Satipatthana Sutta and to relate it > to practice. > > So in the first text, after the introduction, we read that: > > "The things contained in the Abhidhamma, spoken of therein, are altogether > fourfold from the standpoint of ultimate reality: consciousness, mental > factors, matter, and Nibbana." > > These are the only dhammas that can ever be understood or realized. > > Consciousness (citta) is included in cittaanupassanaa and also in > dhammaanupassanaa, the third and fourth foundations of mindfulness. > > Mental factors (cetasikas) are included in vedanaanupassanaa, > cittaanupassanaa and also in dhammaanupassanaa > > Matter (rupas) are included in kaayaanupassanaa and also in > dhammaanupassanaa > Yes. Abhidharma is found in all four foundations of mindfulness, but not all foundations of mindfulness use exclusively Abhidharma knowledge. I certainly wish to know the realities underlying various foundations of mindfulness in terms of nama and rupa, throughout all four categories of contemplation, but it appears to me that since citta and cetasika are two of the fundamental units described in Abhidharma, the contemplation on consciousness most especially would benefit from a thorough knowledges of consciousness and its associated states. And in this case knowing the exact factor of energy that is described in ACM o A seems better to me than knowing "I need to cultivate energy" (although this happens to be contemplations on dhammas, the same principle would apply to consciousness and the nature of all its associated states). > (Nibbana is not included in these four foundations because the development > of satipatthana as described in the sutta is concerned with the > development of mundane awareness and wisdom.) Contemplation on the repulsive nature of the body, of contemplation of the body in the body, is said to be able to lead one to the realization of Truth (3rd Noble Truth), and the end of clinging is described in another. Is this not too the deliverance of mind? Doesn't that the Buddha said "Whoever practises these four foundations of mindfulness [for XYZ periods of time] can experience [arahantship or the state of non-return] say something about *supramundane* awareness? Maybe it doesn't, if I'm not in the know, please tell me. > > So these are all the same namas and rupas being described which can only > be known when they are experienced. For example, the first kind of > consciousness mentioned in the sutta is `the consciousness with lust'. > This can only be known when it arises, though we can read and > theoretically understand more details about it anytime. Is there > attachment now? If so, there can be awareness of it immediately without > any special concentration or attention. This is how satipatthana can be > understood. I see your view is more 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life'ish where mine is 'Four Foundations of Mindfulness are life'ish. When mindfulness is thoroughly established, reality after reality instantaneously can be observed, so fast that you might say the person is being mindful of all things going on in the body at once. In fact this makes me wonder, can there not be two cittas arising at the same time? Eg one for body-consciousness one for hearing-consciousness? And where is consciousness of the different sense doors located in the mind-body complex? > > From the sub-commentery to the Satipatthana Sutta: > > "In the consciousness with lust, lust occurs as a mental concomitant > arising and passing away along with a conscious state and sharing with > that conscious state the object and basis of consciousness." > > In other words, we're used to thinking of ourselves or others as being > greedy or having attachment, but we learn in both the Abhidhamma and the > suttas that there are just these cittas and cetasikas arising and passing > away and that it's quite possible for awareness to be aware of these > states from time to time. Or all the time. This is possible, isn't it? > .... > <...> > >...I immediately remembered a > > suggestion by the Buddha to his monks that on guarding the sense > > doors, one can go to heaven, or by neglecting to guard the sense > > doors, one can go to hell, so I began guarding my sense doors. > …. > S: And the meaning of guarding the sense doors is the understanding and > development of satipatthana when objects or dhammas impinge on these sense > doors. First of all there has to be the understanding of what the dhammas > (realities) in our life are so that they can be known, rather than being > swept away by trains of thinking about concepts which are purely imagined. > > Like you say later `if no one is there to have a problem, there is no > problem.' In other words, the problems in life are those problems > conceptualized and imagined. Even lust or hatred are not problems in the > sense that they can be known. They can be the objects of awareness when > they arise and are seen as merely conditioned elements, not a person. Right but you missed the point. I was using that example to show that this psycho-physical organism acted as a whole to guard the sense doors. I am just not sure here how to reconcile the idea 'don't be attached to concept of self' with 'Whoever practises these four foundations of mindfulness'. Can you see? > > There is a verse in Dhammapada about the nature of ignorance, and > > even telling you to 'free yourself from it.' > …. > S: We can say `free yourself from ignorance', but in truth it is the > development of the eightfold path with right understanding as leader which > does the freeing. So we have to distinguish our convenrional use of > language from the strict understanding of the real meaning behind the > words which we read about in the Abhidhamma. Most importantly, we have to > remember there's no self ever. Again, the approach I would take here would be to point out that we are practising for the supramundane paths, and at the attainment of stream-entry the notion of a personal self will be done away for forever. *That's* what should be more in mind when we practise, or at least as a goal to practise for. Also, I was doing a pretty good job when I had some good mindfulness going one day after reading "The Seven Stages of Purification and the Insight Knowledges" and ignorance, as I've heard it described as a veil, started to melt away. And there was no practise of the Noble Eightfold Path. > As you say, `our goal is to extinguish our defilements and attain the > supramundane paths', but this will only ever happen by the patient > development of satipatthana. You asked whether my goal `of experiencing > namas and rupas one way at a time is aimed towards this same goal'. The > answer is 'yes' as I've tried to explain above. > > Satipatthana is the experiencing and awareness of namas and rupas one at a > time. Only one is ever the object of the cittas when awareness and > understanding can arise. If it's a citta with attachment or lust, it's not > the time to be aware of anger. If it is hardness being experienced as one > types, it's not the time to be aware of feeling or attachment. Right, but if I'm walking down the streets and there's my entire body made up of the four elements, I can try to be mindful of as much of those four elements as possible, right? The different organs, the interaction of material form with the outside world? The many different types of bodily feeling that occur so close together in time that it's almost all at once? > > If my understanding of practice makes my life more complicated or > difficult, I question the understanding. It's not about having another > kind of experience, but of understanding what is being experienced now > very naturally, whether out in the street or sitting in the waiting room > as you describe. Ehh I would hesitate to lose my mindfulness down to one or two nama or rupa (in the conventional sense) when coming back indoors for study or formal practise or work. > > As Nina wrote to another friend yesterday: > > "Each element (except nibana, which is the unconditioned element) can only > arise when there are the right conditions. We can read it, hear it, but > we many not have thoroughly considered the truth. It has to go into our > bones. Such firm understanding is the condition for the arising of sati > sampaja~n~na [which we read about in the Satipatthana Sutta]. Direct > understanding eliminates doubt and confidence grows." > > Look forward to your feedback. Maybe we can quote little bits from CMA as > we go along and as you suggest in effect, look at ways of narrowing our > different understandings of what we read. > > Metta and Best Wishes for the New Year. > > Sarah > ========> Maybe, Ive got a lot left to read and I'm going through what I've read already to make sure I really get it, so we'll see what happens. 40459 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 5:08pm Subject: Book recommendations Well as I have stated here on a prior occasion, I have acquired Bhikku Bodhi's excellent manual on abhidhamma, "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidharma," and begun to study it. I was going very quickly and I could see it was the good, the wholesome (studying good dhamma books), and so I have been so rejuvinated that I could keep on going for miles. Now I will be practising the four foundations of mindfulness, either intensively itself or a little at a time as outlined in a practise guide, but either way, I need to know citta and cetasika, and how I can work with acting on beautiful cittas or motivation and avoid acting on the cittas rooted in moha, lobha, and dosa. Can anyone suggest some good dhamma books, in the same vein, maybe Nina's Abhidhamma In Daily Life or other, similar books? If you need more specifics I have posted what I am looking for at E-sangha (lioncity.net) at the following address: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=10532&st=0&p=140420& thanks in advance andrew 40460 From: Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 5:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi Howard and TG, I think it's useful to know that there is more to reality than the internal and external sense bases. What this means is that understanding these bases doesn't necessarily answer all questions (about kamma for example), so we don't need to try to answer these questions. These answers are beyond our "domain". More importantly they are not germaine to the path leading to cessation of dukkha. Larry 40461 From: Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 3:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana In a message dated 1/1/2005 5:52:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Hi Howard and TG, I think it's useful to know that there is more to reality than the internal and external sense bases. What this means is that understanding these bases doesn't necessarily answer all questions (about kamma for example), so we don't need to try to answer these questions. These answers are beyond our "domain". More importantly they are not germaine to the path leading to cessation of dukkha. Larry Hi Larry Your first sentence seems to contradict the very Sutta we are discussing. I don't think that kamma is "outside" of "the all," just a complex aspect of it. Who knows, maybe you'll be the next Buddha and the entire workings of kamma will not be something unknown to you. I think the Buddha's teaching on "the all" isn't so much about what we don't know right now...but what we have no "potential" to know because there is simply no conditional support for it. TG 40462 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 8:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Meditation Hi Mike (and Niana) - Thank you very much, Mike, for expressing a common interest in this fascinating subject of 'naamaruupapariccheda' as 'correct seeing of mind-and-body'. Yes, I will write more about this stuff with as much sutta support as I can find and, of course, with the kind help of Nina. It has been several years now that I have been trying to learn both principal and practical aspects of this first door of wisdom that opens to the higher planes of insight knowledge (as expounded by Ven. Buddhaghosa and by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw in his "Progress of Insight"). Unfortunately, I have not found even one discourse (sutta) that directly addresses this issue. I truly appreciate Nina's energetic investigation into the Mahanama sutta and other related materials on this subject matter. I personally believe that this endeavor will, in time, not only reveal more subtle relationships between the Abhidahmma and the Sutta Pitaka, but also make clearer the citta behaviors during the process of insight development. For example, we might be able to understand how the citta realizes "the arising and falling away" of the five aggregates, one at a time, as Nina puts it : N: "When we still take nama and rupa as a whole how can the arising and falling away of realities one at a time, separately, ever be realized? We can reflect on impermanence, but that is only thinking". Mike, the followings (from her message # 40267) are Nina's extremely- interesting explanations of this insight knowledge, that cuts through the nama-rupa. I would like to propose that we use them as building blocks for developing our clearer understanding of yatha-bhuta-nana- dassana vipassana. N: N: It is asked what all? The eye, objects, etc. Herein is the clue, the preparation you asked for. Mindfulness and understanding has to be developed of all objects appearing one at a time through the six doors. We have to know the difference between concept and reality, only realities are objects of satipatthana. The khandhas, the elements, the aayatanas. Or in short: dhammas, paramattha dhammas. Kindest regards, Tep === --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mnease" wrote: > Hi Tep, > > Interesting, not at all 'our' usual translation. Naama and ruupa have many > different meanings dependent on context by my reading. Would like to read > more, with support from the texts if possible, for the rendering of > 'naamaruupapariccheda' as 'correct seeing of mind-and-body' . > > Thanks in advance, > > mike > 40463 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 9:33pm Subject: [dsg] Re:sense-door, mind-door. [Reply to message # 40267] Dear Nina - T: > What are the supporting conditions for panna so that it can work its way > until the first ray of insight knowledge appears? Is contemplating nama- > rupa as " not mine, not 'I', not my 'self' " both necessary and sufficient? N: That is the end result, not the beginning. Insight knowledge is not satipatthana. Satipatthana is developed any time there is mindfulness and a degree of understanding of whatever nama or rupa appears. It can develop, it can grow. Insight knowledge, even the first stage, is a result, a fruit, of the development of satipatthana. Insight knowledge consists of several moments of clearly realizing the nama and rupa that appear. T: I am in total agreement with you about satipatthana as a supporting condition for developing right concentration and right understanding (samma-nana). On the other hand, it seems to me that the theme 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself' in a sutta such as SN XXII.59, Anatta-lakkhana Sutta, was also recommended by the Buddha as a tool for developing the parinna that supports arising of the insight knowledge, 'subba dhamma anatta'. "Bhikkhus, form is not-self. Were form self, then this form would not lead to affliction, and one could have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' And since form is not-self, so it leads to affliction, and none can have it of form: 'Let my form be thus, let my form be not thus.' Bhikkhus, feeling is not-self... "So, bhikkhus any kind of form whatever, whether past, future or presently arisen, whether gross or subtle, whether in oneself or external, whether inferior or superior, whether far or near, must with right understanding how it is, be regarded thus: 'This is not mine, this is not I, this is not myself.' Any kind of feeling whatever... [endquote] Kindest regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Tep, > .... > T: I am interested in the interval between the state in which "the mind- door > > process is concealed by the sense-door process" and the state "when > > the time is ripe for the first stage of insight knowledge, it knows nama > > and rupa through the mind-door". You have hinted that "it is only panna > > itself that works its way". 40464 From: Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 9:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana TG: "Your first sentence seems to contradict the very Sutta we are discussing." Hi TG, You're right. No point in speculating on whether there is more to reality than the six sense bases. Not within my domain, plus it's vexing to attempt to conceive of the inconceivable or perceive the imperceivable. It occured to me that this sutta might be directed toward Vedanta. I believe Vedanta maintains that the six sense bases are illusion (maya) and Self is reality. The sutta talks of rejecting this all and making known another all. Vedanta could be interpreted as doing somethng like that. Larry 40465 From: Egbert Date: Sat Jan 1, 2005 10:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Hi Charles, Thanks for explaining further. Not like I am the chief censor, or anything, but I see nothing in your statements which is contradictory. I am sure we all have much to learn from each other. Thanks again and kind regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: > > Dear Herman, > > A God is my friend, and like most friends, we share and do things for each other. Now it is true that some would say I share with, and do for, myself and those around me. However, this is all a question of "View." > > As far as God being more than a subject of my belief, this is also a question of View. It is a view that I am quite comfortable with and it doesn't cause me to suffer. In a nut-shell my view is just another view of Ultimate Truth. But this truth is existence. > > Charles DaCosta > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Egbert > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 1:33 AM > Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. > > > > > Hi Charles, (James and all), > > > My name is Herman Hofman, an on-again-off-again member of the list > for 3 or 4 years now. Born in Holland, now resident in Australia. At > one time I was a born-again, filled with the Spirit minister in a > Pentacostal church. > > It is nice to make your acquiantance :-) > > I was especially interested to read that you were a resident of > Denmark (a wonderful society of which I have the fondest memories) > and that you are a born-again Christian. > > If I could ask you a question. > > When you say that you believe in God is that One God or a God? > > Does One God or a God do anything besides being a subject of your > belief :-)? > > Purely out of curiousity, and because I fought with "God" and "God > lost. > > All the best to you > > Herman 40466 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 2:07am Subject: Re: sutta, to Phil Hello Nina, and all I feel very happy to be able to write to you. Our computer wouldn't turn on for three days and I assumed it was dead, but it came back to life today. Myseterious. And it was nice because I found that I wasn't perturbed at all by it. Dhamma is getting deeply rooted - no doubt about that. I could survive some months without my Dhamma friends. > We spoke several times about meditation subjects for all occasions, and > among these the recollection of the Buddha. > I came across a sutta, > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-013.html > We read that Mahaanama asks the Buddha in whose way of living he should > live. The Co explains that for a layman this is living with the Dhamma, not > solitary life. I remember I read something about "dwell in Dhamma" and it had to do with those of us who study but don't dwell in Dhamma, or discuss, but don't dwell in Dhamma, or other things which I can't recall, but don't dwell in Dhamma. I remember the first time I was cut off from this group for technical reasons I thought at one point something like "hey, what's the point of this Dhamma stuff if I can't tell anyone about my great insights!" (haha) I wasn't dwelling in Dhamma. The last few days, there was nothing like that. > Mahanama was a sotaapanna, and that means that he could attain access > concentration with this subject. Jhana is not possible, because this subject > is too deep. > The Buddha said to him, that he should recollect: > < 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate > in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, > unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of > divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' > "Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Sangha while you are > walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, while you are lying > down, while you are busy at work, while you are resting in your home crowded > with children.> I must say that I love the last part, about how and when we should develop this recollection, but personally, the recollection of the Buddha as worthy and rightly self-awakened and such is personally not so helpful for me. I find these days the way I reflect on the Buddha is by reflecting on the Noble Truth of Suffering, really soak in it, and from that arises such gratitude to the Buddha who shows us the way to liberation. The last few days I've been so inspired by the simple teaching, with which we're all familiar, that is *is* possible to abandon the unwholesome and cultivate the wholesome that He wouldn't have taught us so if it weren't! My practice seems to be simplified these days, reflecting on the hetus. Again, I want to thank Antony for linking us to that great book "The Roots of Good and Evil." It has helped me to settle into something very uncomplicated. And it's making everything else less complicated. Continuing to study Abhidhamma while receiving guidance from straightforward suttas, and thanks to Abhidhamma always being reminded that the suttas I'm studying are *not* in fact quite as straightforward as they seem! If the computer weren't wonky, I would start posting passages from that book, but I can't promise to do that now. I'm also getting a lot of clear direction from the chapters on the hetus in ADL. It's really not complicated for me these days. I wonder how long it will stay that way! :) > I like this passage, it shows that he can apply to this meditation subject > naturally, because the right condiitons are present. He had an unshakable > confidence in the Buddha. I was thinking the other day, Nina, wondering about the way you say that meditations can be used in this way in busy daily life. I certainly reflect on things in daily life, ponder them, but I had had trouble seeing this as "meditation" because of clinging to certain views. The sutta above helps me to understand this better. There isn't a day that goes by without remembering your description of having dinner at a nice restaurant with Lodewijk, as the waiters bustled about, and there was recollection of foulness, or death, I forget which. I loved that. No question that you weren't having an absolutely delightful time together, but there was also right recollection of the realities and ultimate fate of conditioned dhammas even as you still had this lovely time in the bustling restaurant. I think that's probably my favourite post at this group. > Lodewijk said that because of his sutta readings he sees that they all deal > with Abhidhamma, they explain seeing, hearing, etc. I wouldn't say that *all* do - but I certainly haven't come across many that don't. It seems to me that Samyutta Nikaya in particular lends itself to study in conjunction with Abhidhamma. I think it would be a bit perverse to insist on studying suttas without making an effort to understand Abhidhamma. And once one made a sincere effort, and conditions permitted, there would be no going back. >He also said that you > should read my e book Introduction to the Buddhist Scriptures, since I > mainly quote suttas there. You may find it on zolag. He instigated me to > write this some years ago. Wow! That reminds me that this is one of the many things I printed out and put in binders but that I forgot to read it. I hope I can find it! All these binders are so disorganized. Please thank Lodewijk and all the best to both of you and your father in 2005. I hope the birthday party went well! Metta, Phil p.s I was reading through my little pocket notebooks and found this from a few months ago: " 'With regard to internal factors, I do not envision any other single factor so helpful as appropriate attention. WIth regard to external factors, I do not envision any other single factor liek friendship with admirable people.' I was encouraged when I dreamt of Nina last night, her Dhamma achievement, something to do with abandoning." Just in case my computer crashes for good, I would like to tell you about that dream which was surely a confirmation of my faith in your as a very good Dhamma friend! :) p.p.s I've become aware that I am forgetting how to write some pretty basic Japanese characters and that all the Japanese I learned some years ago is in danger of slipping away into a void, so I'm feeling resolved about studying Nihongo a little harder this year. I expect I'll be coming by here only on Sundays and my day off on Wednesday, but we'll see about that! 40467 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 2:19am Subject: Re: Book recommendations Hi Andrew Nice to see you're back! > how I can work with acting on beautiful cittas or motivation and avoid > acting on the cittas rooted in moha, lobha, and dosa. Can anyone > suggest some good dhamma books, in the same vein, maybe Nina's > Abhidhamma In Daily Life or other, similar books? Maybe you've already read it, but I am very keen on "THe Roots of Good and Evil" by Nanamoli Thera which you can find online in various editions if you Google it. Fantastic, and I think it's just what you're looking for. As I just wrote to Nina, it has really simplified things for me, got me focussed on various approaches to working on beginning to loosen to hold of the akusala roots. Typically, my expecations are modest, but the book is making me feel a bit more ambitious, I must say. If you haven't read it, please do! If you read the version posted at geocities, beware of some misleading typos, and enjoy the funny ones. ("Mink" instead of "monk" and "The Lard" instead of "The Lord" are two examples.) Metta, Phil p.s What's with the "suicidal one" user name? If that is one of those proverbial "cries for help" let it be known that I feel concerned and hope you're feeling ok these days. I won't be able to read through all your posts as it is time to get off the computer. 40468 From: Philip Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 2:45am Subject: Thinking about Dhamma ( was Re: An Interesting Meditation Hi Jon, and all > > Phil... I do notice that during the days on > >which I have not been posting, there is less thinking about Dhamma > >and *possibly* more bare awareness. It is still shallow awareness, > >but I don't get caught up in concepts to quite the same degree. > > > Jon > We all have a tendency to the view that thinking of the kind described > as 'getting caught up in concepts' and awareness are mutually exclusive > occurrences or at the very least that the former makes the latter a lot > less likely. I would like to reword what I wrote above, since I've just had a few days away and have more insight into it. It's not that there is any less thinking about Dhamma - it still goes on most of the time for me. But the thinking is far less caught up in self-image. Since I'm a beginner, and this group has been so helpful for me, there is far too much of the "hey, I said something very wise" or "Nina will like" that" and that kind of thing. Or regrets that I didn't say something in a different way. Or mentally drafting posts to come. Surely there is *some* benefit from that kind of thing. But the last few days, when I thought our computer was dead for good there was no consideration of DSG whatsoever, no thoughts about posting, and the Dhamma reflections were somehow much purer. This is *my* accumulation we're talking about - nobody elses. To be honest, Naomi and I don't have friends to speak of here and DSG has become a social outlet for me, and that aspect gets involved in my Dhamma reflections related to DSG. Worldly concerns. Wanting to be liked and embraced by the group. Nothing wrong with that, but Dhamma reflections that are conditioned by that sort of thing are obviously not as free of worldly wrong view. So this doesn't relate to thinking about Dhamma in general - it's my accumulations, my circumstances. Everyone has different ones that will condition the way the thinking goes on. > And it is perhaps as a corollary of this kind of view that we are also > likely to regard the (perceived) absence of or reduction in > thinking/getting caught up in concepts as indicating the presence of > more awareness. I remember a post in which you reminded me that concepts in themselves are nothing to be concerned about. They are essential to get around in life. And no doubt that thinking the absence or reduction of conceptual thinking necessarily implies the presence of more awareness is a mistake. I can see that now. Awareness, if and when it arises, arises due to conditions. Thinking otherwise is an easy mistake to make. > Any idea > that there is more awareness when such and such is done (i.e., > reading/not reading the list, following/not following a particular > routine) is likely to lead us into a wrong practice of some kind as we seek to 'maximise' the chances of having more awareness. Yes, that " seek to maximize the chances of having more awareness" sounds like something that has gone on in my head a lot. I think this phrase will be one of those that sticks with me as a helpful reminder of what to be aware of. Thanks! All the best to you and Sarah in 2005. (And in passing, to everyone in the group.) Metta, Phil 40469 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 7:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: Apologies Friend Sarah, I have been giving the Brahajala Sutta some study and I don't think it includes *ALL* types of wrong views. It only includes wrong views which are `fixed' and of an ontological order. Not only that, these various views were from the Buddha's time period and don't necessarily apply to all time periods (for example, from my reading, it doesn't include the modern wrong views of Existentialism and Objectivism). From the Brahajala Sutta: "There are, monks, some ascetics and Brahmins who are speculators about the past, having fixed views about the past, and who put forward various speculative theories about the past, in eighteen different ways. On what basis, on what grounds do they do so?"… "This, monks, the Tathágata understands : These viewpoints thus grasped and adhered to will lead to such-and-such destinations in another world."… "Whatever ascetics and Brahmins who are speculators about the past or the future or both, having fixed views on the matter and put forth speculative views about it, these are all trapped in the net with its sixty-two divisions, and wherever they emerge and try to get out, they are caught and held in this net. Just as a skilled fisherman or his apprentice might cover a small piece of water with a fine-meshed net, thinking : `Whatever larger creatures there may be in this water, they are all trapped in the net, caught, and held in the net', so it is with all these : they are trapped and caught in this net." Metta, James 40470 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 9:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi again Howard and TG, An interesting message arises when we combine these two suttas: don't reject this all but abandon it. Would either of you like to comment on that. Alternately, I've spotted some problems with this all. Where does eye consciousness fit in? Eye consciousness is not eye or visible object so it must be part of mind and have a mental object. If so, is this mental object the exact same thing as the external visible object? I would say not. Abhidhamma seems to say otherwise but doesn't explain how that could be. If they are different, where does that leave the physical life-force? Physical life-force is nominally a mental object, but if it really arises externally in the world of rupa then it is not included in the sense bases. There are many other rupas in the same predicament. Larry 40471 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 9:22am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Teach Abhidhamma (Was: abhidhamma - - - To ... Hi Suan and Howard - Your discussion, or rather a debate, on the Abhidhamma versus the Sutta Pitaka, is quite interesting [messages # 40396 and 40401]. Since the two views are opposite, I think this debate may never reach a compromising conclusion. On the second thought, maybe a conclusion, compromised or not, is not necessary. But, if we never reach a conclusion, will the debate be useful? Suan's main points: 1. Any Suttam can be shown to be abhidhamma in disguise. 2. The contents of both Suttam Pitaka and Abhidhamma Pitaka are the same dhammaa - the four ultimate realities: mind, mental associates, matter and nibbaana. The reality units, their conditions and relations are the abhidhammaa. Howard's main points: 1. The Abhidhamma is a codification of the teachings in the suttas. The Abhidhamma is just the detailed part of the whole Dhamma; there is no need to generalize it. 2. The Abhidhamma was a later development after the teachings in the suttas. Ven Nyanaponika and Bhikkhu Bodhi also recognized the Abhidhamma as a later development. Warm regards, Tep ========= --- [Message # 40401] In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Suan - > > In a message dated 12/31/04 10:05:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, > suanluzaw@b... writes: > > > Dear Howard, Nina, Sarah, Chris F, Mike, Andrew L, Ken O and all > > 40472 From: Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 4:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/2/05 12:05:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi again Howard and TG, > > An interesting message arises when we combine these two suttas: don't > reject this all but abandon it. Would either of you like to comment > on that. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I see two possible readings: 1) Go to a final nibbana that involves no consciousness of any objects whatsoever, or 2) Uproot all upadana. I accept the second as the intended meaning. ----------------------------------------- > > Alternately, I've spotted some problems with this all. Where does eye > consciousness fit in? Eye consciousness is not eye or visible object > so it must be part of mind and have a mental object. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Eye consciousness is nama, but its object is not. It's object is rupa (in two senses: visible form, and material phenomenon). --------------------------------------- If so, is this > > mental object the exact same thing as the external visible object? I > would say not. Abhidhamma seems to say otherwise but doesn't explain > how that could be. If they are different, where does that leave the > physical life-force? Physical life-force is nominally a mental > object, but if it really arises externally in the world of rupa then > it is not included in the sense bases. There are many other rupas in > the same predicament. ----------------------------------------- Howard: I have no comment on physical life-force (not that you asked *me! ;-). Should I ever knowingly encounter such a beast, I'll consider saying something then. ------------------------------------------ > > Larry > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40473 From: Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 4:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Teach Abhidhamma (Was: abhidhamma - - -... Hi, Tep (and Suan) - In a message dated 1/2/05 12:23:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepyawa@m... writes: > Hi Suan and Howard - > > Your discussion, or rather a debate, on the Abhidhamma versus the > Sutta Pitaka, is quite interesting [messages # 40396 and 40401]. Since > the two views are opposite, I think this debate may never reach a > compromising conclusion. > ----------------------------------- Howard: Quite possibly not. ----------------------------------- On the second thought, maybe a > > conclusion, compromised or not, is not necessary. > --------------------------------- Howard: Necessary for what? ;-) -------------------------------- But, if we never > > reach a conclusion, will the debate be useful? > ---------------------------------- Howard: Of course. It is useful for others to see both sides. It is also useful for each of the "debaters" to see the other's position, for this plants a seed in the mind enabling consideration of that other position and comparison with one's own. It is always useful to hear and to consider. A guarantee of final resolution isn't given nor is it necessary. It isn't necessary, because a great value in hearing a different view lies in that hearing serving as support for not clinging to a view. Not clinging to views is as important as having right views, because relinquishment lies at the core of the Dhamma. ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40474 From: Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi Larry In a message dated 1/2/2005 9:05:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Hi again Howard and TG, An interesting message arises when we combine these two suttas: don't reject this all but abandon it. Would either of you like to comment on that. TG: I would say that "rejecting" is sort of the 'middle stage process' that insight developments spurs on. Then "abandoning" is nearer the final stage of that same process. But these might be two different translations of the same term anyway? Alternately, I've spotted some problems with this all. Where does eye consciousness fit in? Eye consciousness is not eye or visible object so it must be part of mind and have a mental object. If so, is this mental object the exact same thing as the external visible object? I would say not. Abhidhamma seems to say otherwise but doesn't explain how that could be. If they are different, where does that leave the physical life-force? Physical life-force is nominally a mental object, but if it really arises externally in the world of rupa then it is not included in the sense bases. There are many other rupas in the same predicament. TG: I believe both body and mind are systems and that both are inter-dependent systems with each other and the environment I believe the Four Great Elements supply the dynamic forces necessary for systems to operate. I look at physical or mental "life-forces" in that way. I don't believe this "vision" is directly taught in the Tipitaka, but I believe it is "extractable" from the Tipitaka. At any rate... they are changing, impermanent, afflicting, and not-self. Larry TG 40475 From: Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi Howard and Larry In a message dated 1/2/2005 9:48:14 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/2/05 12:05:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi again Howard and TG, > > An interesting message arises when we combine these two suttas: don't > reject this all but abandon it. Would either of you like to comment > on that. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I see two possible readings: 1) Go to a final nibbana that involves no consciousness of any objects whatsoever, or 2) Uproot all upadana. I accept the second as the intended meaning. ----------------------------------------- TG: I think both are correct and have many Sutta quotes where the Buddha directly describes the goal as the end of consciousness. I posted most a couple of weeks ago but if you want to see them I can post them again. TG [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 40476 From: Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 6:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi, TG (and Larry) - In a message dated 1/2/05 1:41:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > I see two possible readings: 1) Go to a final nibbana that involves no > consciousness of any objects whatsoever, or 2) Uproot all upadana. I accept > the second as the intended meaning. > ----------------------------------------- > > TG: I think both are correct and have many Sutta quotes where the Buddha > directly describes the goal as the end of consciousness. I posted most a > couple > of weeks ago but if you want to see them I can post them again. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not questioning here whether final nibbana involves the end of experience. That may well be so. There is no self to begin with, and cessation of objects and cessation of experiential presence of objects (i.e., consciousness) would be co-occurring. When no-self is fully realized at arahant fruition, there will longer be any clinging to or craving for either experiencing or experiences. Since such clinging and craving is the motive force for experience, it makes sense, then, that experience may cease upon the death of an arahant. A living arahant would neither crave experience nor its cessation. What I was saying was merely that I take the "abandoning" in that sutta to mean "releasing one's hold on" or "letting go of" or "relinquishing". Cessation of experience will occur (or not) on its own as a consequence of full relinquishment. It is that abandoning that is of primary importance. Once one is free from clinging and neither grasps onto nor pushes away anything whatsoever, one no longer cares whether experience continues or not. Another issue, though, and this is a distinction point between Theravada and Mahayana, is whether it is possible that the mahakaruna of an arahant, or at least of a Buddha, can enable him to continue to experience for the purpose of being of help to sentient beings. It doesn't seem implausible to me that such be possible - that is, that compassion at the level of a Buddha may be a motive force for continuation of experience as great as craving/clinging. ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40477 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Meditation Dear Tep, Thank you for your posts to Mike and me. For now, I keep them until later. Yes, very helpful if you write more. I shall look into the Path of Discrimination. I wrote about this subject what I understood intellectually, understanding based on listening, study and considering, but the direct realization of the truth is quite a different matter. It cannot occur without the right conditions. Nina. op 02-01-2005 05:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > I will write more about this stuff with as much sutta > support as I can find 40478 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Phil Hello Philip, Thank you for your good wishes also to Lodewijk, and we also wish you a year fruitful with Dhamma. The birthday part went fine, music included. But my father was overtired when we celebrated Christmas and New Year's Eve. He could hardly eat and everything was really difficult. But understandable for a 104 year old. I had to laugh that you dreamt of me. op 02-01-2005 11:07 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: personally, the recollection of the > Buddha as worthy and rightly self-awakened and such is personally not > so helpful for me. I find these days the way I reflect on the Buddha > is by reflecting on the Noble Truth of Suffering, really soak in it, > and from that arises such gratitude to the Buddha who shows us the > way to liberation. N: Meditation can be a short recollection. When you find that subjects of Abhidhamma like akusala cittas can be verified in life, you can remember that the Buddha taught all this. Where would you be without his teaching? Nina. 40479 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 11:49am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Teach Abhidhamma (Was: abhidhamma - - -... Hi, Howard - Tep: On the second thought, maybe a > conclusion, compromised or not, is not necessary. > --------------------------------- Howard: Necessary for what? ;-) If you just want to chat with a friend, just to get together, or to kill time, then nobody care about reaching a conclusion (they are too busy talking!). So a conclusion is not necessary for finding an answer to a problem, or discovering a hidden truth, etc. But here, I assume, we generally have a well-defined purpose in every discussion, so it is necessary for us to try to reach a conclusion. Howard: A guarantee of final resolution isn't given nor is it necessary. It isn't necessary, because a great value in hearing a different view lies in that hearing serving as support for not clinging to a view. Not clinging to views is as important as having right views, because relinquishment lies at the core of the Dhamma. Tep: Theoretically, you said it very well ! Practically, it is not easy for discussers to know from the beginning if they are free from clinging to their own views or not (people who are, do not debate). And as the debate goes on, and the temperature gets warmer, they may find it hard to let go. On the other side of the coin, it is very easy for other people (not involved in the debate) to see who is clinging or not clinging. Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep (and Suan) - > > Howard: > Of course. It is useful for others to see both sides. It is also > useful for each of the "debaters" to see the other's position, for this plants a > seed in the mind enabling consideration of that other position and comparison > with one's own. It is always useful to hear and to consider. A guarantee of > final resolution isn't given nor is it necessary. It isn't necessary, because a > great value in hearing a different view lies in that hearing serving as support > for not clinging to a view. Not clinging to views is as important as having > right views, because relinquishment lies at the core of the Dhamma. > ====================== 40480 From: mlnease Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 0:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi Larry, Just a couple of thoughts off the top, hope you don't mind my butting in: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Where does eye > consciousness fit in? Eye consciousness is not eye or visible object > so it must be part of mind Cakkhuvi~n~naa.na is 'mind', 'citta', isn't it? How do you mean 'part of mind'? > and have a mental object. Of course as citta it must have an object, visible form--physical (ruupa) object, not mental (naama) I think. > If so, is this > mental object the exact same thing as the external visible object? I > would say not. Abhidhamma seems to say otherwise but doesn't explain > how that could be. If they are different, where does that leave the > physical life-force? Do you mean jiivitindriya? I know this as a condition, a paccaya, and as a universal cetasika. Is there a 'life-force' ruupa I'm not aware of? > Physical life-force is nominally a mental > object, but if it really arises externally in the world of rupa then > it is not included in the sense bases. I don't understand why you would say that it 'arises externally in the world of rupa'-- > There are many other rupas in > the same predicament. I don't see the predicament--if I've misunderstood the above, I'd be grateful for any further clarification. mike 40481 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 0:51pm Subject: Re: Book recommendations Thanks for the recommendations, Phil, I will look into them. To address the following statement. > p.s What's with the "suicidal one" user name? If that is one of > those proverbial "cries for help" let it be known that I feel > concerned and hope you're feeling ok these days. I won't be able to > read through all your posts as it is time to get off the computer. It is not a cry for help, I have just had a history of suicidal ideation and have been hospitalized on those grounds. I have these thoughts or images coming to me on an infrequent basis, but I have never acted on them or threatened to act on them, I know it is not for my well-being which is something I do care for, but this is apparently enough to have people consider me 'suicidal' and I was greeted by the phrase (minus the year) of my yahoo user id on an irc channel i frequent so i picked it up. Not meant to cause harm or ideas others. If more people are concerned about it in the future I might change the nick. Thanks, AL 40482 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 1:11pm Subject: Availability of three suttas for repulsiveness of body meditation Hello, As you may have noticed from my posts late last year, I have been interested in preparing for the repulsive nature of the body meditation. This method is said to lead to the realization of Truth: 'Bhikkus, when one thing is developed, repeatedly practised, it leads to a supreme sense of urgency, to supreme benefit, to supreme surcease of bondage, to supreme mindfulness and full awareness, to acquisition of knowledge and vision, to a happy life here and now, to realization of the fruit of clear vision and deliverance. What is that one thing? It is mindfulness occupied with the body.' Now the book I'm reading from on preparation for this notes, as part of the Tenfold Skill of Paying Attention, that three suttas are necessary for this contemplation. So it states in Vissudhimagga. They are: Anguttara Nikaya i.256-258 (looking over concentration, exertion, and equanimity evenly) Anguttara Nikaya iii.435 Six things to acheive coolness: restraint, energy, interest, equanimity, striving for the superior state, delight in nibbana Samyutta Nikaya v.113 When to develop the factors of enlightenment. Now the Vissudhimmaga (VIII, 61, 73) also says the three suttas are necessary, but actually goes into a little more detail about their contents in the section dealing with them, saying "this is how they are to be understood:," and for the last sutta (dealing with the factors of enlightenment), it even refers one to an earlier chapter in the book itself. Now it looks to me that this is not quite complete, that it would be best to actually go through the suttas instead of just the comments on them. The only thing is, I have not been able to find these suttas online. One reason may be because the sutta numbers are dealing with the Pali Text Society's edition, not the numbering system in the more modern copies like those from Wisdom Publications. I have also searched for the subject matter of the suttas and come up dry. Does anyone know for sure, where these suttas are available, ie, if it's in the Pali Text Society's edition, or renumbered such and such in another publication, or if they are really not necessary at all? I imagine they may be in the aforementioned volumes in which case I might be able to find them in the library of my local Vihara, but I certainly haven't been able to find them in any online collection. Thanks in advance for any help. -alevin 40483 From: Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 8:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana In a message dated 1/2/2005 11:24:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Howard: I'm not questioning here whether final nibbana involves the end of experience. That may well be so. There is no self to begin with, and cessation of objects and cessation of experiential presence of objects (i.e., consciousness) would be co-occurring. When no-self is fully realized at arahant fruition, there will longer be any clinging to or craving for either experiencing or experiences. Since such clinging and craving is the motive force for experience, it makes sense, then, that experience may cease upon the death of an arahant. A living arahant would neither crave experience nor its cessation. What I was saying was merely that I take the "abandoning" in that sutta to mean "releasing one's hold on" or "letting go of" or "relinquishing". Cessation of experience will occur (or not) on its own as a consequence of full relinquishment. It is that abandoning that is of primary importance. Once one is free from clinging and neither grasps onto nor pushes away anything whatsoever, one no longer cares whether experience continues or not. Another issue, though, and this is a distinction point between Theravada and Mahayana, is whether it is possible that the mahakaruna of an arahant, or at least of a Buddha, can enable him to continue to experience for the purpose of being of help to sentient beings. It doesn't seem implausible to me that such be possible - that is, that compassion at the level of a Buddha may be a motive force for continuation of experience as great as craving/clinging. ======================= With metta, Howard Hi Howard I really like the way you stated this up until the last paragraph ... which was of course just a speculative side-line. But to indulge... I think its the "holding onto" that sustains "continuance." Pure compassion wouldn't have that force associated with it...I would think. Those types of aspects in Mahayana, or other teachings, are developed IMO by those still looking to "save the self" in one subtle way or another. ;-) TG 40484 From: Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 8:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Teach Abhidhamma (Was: abhidhamma - - -... Hi, Tep - In a message dated 1/2/05 2:50:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepyawa@m... writes: > Howard: > > A guarantee of final resolution isn't given nor is it necessary. It isn't > necessary, because a great value in hearing a different view lies in that > hearing serving as support for not clinging to a view. Not clinging to > views is as important as having right views, because relinquishment > lies at the core of the Dhamma. > > Tep: > > Theoretically, you said it very well ! Practically, it is not easy for > discussers to know from the beginning if they are free from clinging to > their own views or not (people who are, do not debate). And as the > debate goes on, and the temperature gets warmer, they may find it > hard to let go. On the other side of the coin, it is very easy for other > people (not involved in the debate) to see who is clinging or not > clinging. > ===================== It is hard for us to stop clinging to everything! And the more "intellectual" we are, the more we cling to views. And I certainly still do cling to views. But I have found that my views on Abhidhamma, for example, have modified, gradually and often subliminally, as a result of conversations here, and I have found a growing pleasure in the developing attitude that my beliefs are *only* beliefs and are tentative, and that positions that currently seem absurd to me might well be more correct than my current views. A Dhammic slogan much loved by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu that ranks highly in importance for me is "Cling to nothing as me or mine". Similar is the statement by, I believe, the Korean Son master, Seung Sahn: "Only don't know." Beliefs are things we take to be "mine" and that we often cling to tenaciously. It is such a relief to loosen our grip on them and say "Maybe not." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40485 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 1:58pm Subject: Re: Book recommendations Hallo Andrew You're talking about the (Maha)Satipatthana Sutta, Digha Nikaya 22 There are three books I studied and liked about it; there are many more but I studied them less: 1. Nyanaponika Thera - The Heart of Buddhist Meditation. Scholarly good and many texts usefull to contemplate. 2. Matthew Flickstein - Swallowing the River Ganges. Not so much about the Sutta but about Insight-meditation that is based on it. 3. Thich Nhat Hanh - Transformation and healing. Exercises based on the Pali version and two Chinsed version of the Sutta/Sutra: only for brave buddhists who are not afraid to read an inspiring book of a mahayanist. Metta Joop --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > > Well as I have stated here on a prior occasion, I have acquired Bhikku > Bodhi's excellent manual on abhidhamma, "A Comprehensive Manual of > Abhidharma," and begun to study it. I was going very quickly and I > could see it was the good, the wholesome (studying good dhamma books), > and so I have been so rejuvinated that I could keep on going for > miles. Now I will be practising the four foundations of mindfulness, > either intensively itself or a little at a time as outlined in a > practise guide, but either way, I need to know citta and cetasika, and > how I can work with acting on beautiful cittas or motivation and avoid > acting on the cittas rooted in moha, lobha, and dosa. Can anyone > suggest some good dhamma books, in the same vein, maybe Nina's > Abhidhamma In Daily Life or other, similar books? > > If you need more specifics I have posted what I am looking for at > E-sangha (lioncity.net) at the following address: > > http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php? showtopic=10532&st=0&p=140420& > > thanks in advance > andrew 40486 From: Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 9:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/2/05 4:34:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > I really like the way you stated this up until the last paragraph ... which > was of course just a speculative side-line. -------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. A speculative side issue. -------------------------------------- But to indulge...> > > I think its the "holding onto" that sustains "continuance." Pure compassion > > wouldn't have that force associated with it...I would think. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps not. I don't know. (A living Buddha can selflessly will, and certainly the mind of a Buddha is a powerful thing. I'm not prepared to accept or dismiss the proposition. In any case, it is what it is! ;-) -------------------------------------- Those types of > > aspects in Mahayana, or other teachings, are developed IMO by those still > looking to "save the self" in one subtle way or another. ;-) > ------------------------------------ Howard: I don't know. Certainly such beliefs could serve as a lifebuoy for "tender minded" Mahayanists to cling to, but I don't know that such is true for the developers of the Mahayana Bodhisattva ideal, and I also believe there are plenty of "tough minded" Mahayanists to be found who would not cling to this notion "to save the self". What is more, there are plenty of "tender minded" Theravadins around as well! ;-) ----------------------------------- > > TG > ================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40487 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 2:19pm Subject: Re: Book recommendations --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > Hallo Andrew > > You're talking about the (Maha)Satipatthana Sutta, Digha Nikaya 22 > There are three books I studied and liked about it; there are many > more but I studied them less: > > 1. Nyanaponika Thera - The Heart of Buddhist Meditation. Scholarly > good and many texts usefull to contemplate. > 2. Matthew Flickstein - Swallowing the River Ganges. Not so much > about the Sutta but about Insight-meditation that is based on it. > 3. Thich Nhat Hanh - Transformation and healing. Exercises based on > the Pali version and two Chinsed version of the Sutta/Sutra: only for > brave buddhists who are not afraid to read an inspiring book of a > mahayanist. > > Metta > joop, do you have any more recommendations in line with swallowing the river ganges? i own that one and have even thought of buying more copies of it. thanks, a.l. 40488 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 2:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does Hi, Herman I think you see the holy life and the household life as being antithetical to each other (which I would not argue with), and from this you say that since the holy life is lived for the sake of enlightenment then the household life must be antithetical to that goal. In particular, you see social discourse as a real hindrance to the development of the path because of the effect it has of inducing discursive thought, which makes difficult the removal of clinging. To my reading of the suttas and texts, the message taught by the Buddha is a somewhat different one. He did not extol silence or a life of physical seclusion for their own sake, or as being necessary for the development of the path, or even as being necesarily conducive to the development of the path for all persons. He did of course on numerous occasions (but not to every follower) extol the monks' life, but he did so with the qualification that it was the monks. life that was 'well lived' to which her referred. We need to understand the significance of this qualification which, as I see it, has the effect of putting the monk's life beyond the capability of most people. What the Buddha in fact lays down as the necessary conditions for the development of the path are, in comparison to the ideal of a reclusive lifestyle spent in meditative contemplation, relatively mundane-sounding. In numerous suttas, including suttas directed to audiences that include laypeople, the Buddha talks about knowing the presently arising dhammas such as seeing consciousness and visible object and so on through the six senses, or the five khandhas, or the elements. On many occasions those listening to the discourse became enlightened then and there or a short time later. We should not ignore the obvious message this carries for us. That message as I see it is that there is the potential for development of the path at this very moment, regardless of lifestyle or current situation. It is a matter of understanding at an intellectual level first the significance of dhammas such as seeing and visible object. There are dhammas arising now, which may be the object of awareness given the right conditions (as set out in the texts). Jon Egbert wrote: >H > The major issue I have with the possible implications of the >above (there is no suggestion that you have implied them) is that >the mind is posited as a thing with its own nature. I accept that it >is very difficult or impossible to make very precise statements that >are also short. I would just like to make some brief counterpoints. > >Thinking (reflexive mind) is unique to humans. > >Thinking is conditioned. > >Language is a condition for thinking. > >Language is conditioned. > >Society is a condition for language as language is a condition for >society. This is borne out by the fact that people not exposed to or >removed from society loose their capacity for speech/thinking. > >The holy life is lived under the Blessed One for the sake of total >Unbinding through lack of clinging. > >Secular society is a mass of clinging that teaches/learns clinging >by way of discursive thinking. > >The holy life of the Blessed One is the antithesis of secular >society. This is of necessity, because discursive thinking militates >against the most basic development of mind. > >The fruits of the holy life are not harvested in thinking >conditioned by a social setting. > >My discursive thoughts only, now back to some silence > > >Kind Regards > > > >Herman > > 40489 From: seisen_au Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 2:56pm Subject: Re: Availability of three suttas for repulsiveness of body meditation Hi Alevin --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > Anguttara Nikaya i.256-258 > (looking over concentration, exertion, and equanimity evenly) > Anguttara Nikaya iii.435 > Six things to acheive coolness: restraint, energy, interest, > equanimity, striving for the superior state, delight in nibbana > Samyutta Nikaya v.113 > When to develop the factors of enlightenment. Does anyone know for sure, where these suttas are available, ----------- Here are the suttas you were looking for: >Anguttara Nikaya i.256-258(looking over concentration, exertion, and >equanimity evenly) 10. Pamsudhovakasuttam - Washing impurities. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- Nikaya/Anguttara1/3-tikanipata/010-lonaphalavaggo-e.htm --- >Anguttara Nikaya iii.435 >Six things to acheive coolness: restraint, energy, interest, >equanimity, striving for the superior state, delight in nibbana Anguttara Nikaya VI.85 Siti Sutta, Cooled http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an06-085.html ------------ >Samyutta Nikaya v.113 >When to develop the factors of enlightenment. I couldn't find a translation of this sutta on the net but it is: Samyutta Nikaya, Mahavagga, Bojjhangasamyutta, Fire Sutta (Aggisuttam), p.1605 in Bhikkhu Bodhis translation. -------- Take care Steve 40490 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 3:20pm Subject: Re: Availability of three suttas for repulsiveness of body meditation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" wrote: > > Hi Alevin > > Here are the suttas you were looking for: > > >Anguttara Nikaya i.256-258(looking over concentration, exertion, and > >equanimity evenly) > > 10. Pamsudhovakasuttam - Washing impurities. > > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara- > Nikaya/Anguttara1/3-tikanipata/010-lonaphalavaggo-e.htm > > --- > >Anguttara Nikaya iii.435 > >Six things to acheive coolness: restraint, energy, interest, > >equanimity, striving for the superior state, delight in nibbana > > Anguttara Nikaya VI.85 > Siti Sutta, Cooled > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an06-085.html > > ------------ > > >Samyutta Nikaya v.113 > >When to develop the factors of enlightenment. > > I couldn't find a translation of this sutta on the net but it is: > > Samyutta Nikaya, Mahavagga, Bojjhangasamyutta, Fire Sutta > (Aggisuttam), p.1605 in Bhikkhu Bodhis translation. > -------- > > Take care > Steve Steve, thanks for your work in finding these suttas. However, from looking at them, it looks to me like the heart of them /is/ present in the excerpts in the Vissudhimagga, and are a translation that is clearer than those in the suttas you linked me to. I thought the suttas themselves would be more complex or entail more effort but this is not the case. So I will rest with the Vissudhimagga versions for now. peace, a.l. 40491 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 4:06pm Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Teach Abhidhamma (Was: abhidhamma - - -... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > But I have found that my views on Abhidhamma, for example, have > modified, gradually and often subliminally, > as a result of conversations here, and I > have found a growing pleasure in the developing > attitude that my beliefs are > *only* beliefs and are tentative, and that positions that > currently seem absurd > to me might well be more correct than my current views. > A Dhammic slogan much loved by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu that ranks highly in > importance for me is "Cling to nothing as me or mine". Similar is the > statement by, I believe, the Korean Son master, Seung Sahn: "Only don't know." > Beliefs are things we take to be "mine" and that we often cling to tenaciously. It > is such a relief to loosen our grip on them and say "Maybe not." > Hi, Howard - I really like the attitude that takes our current beliefs as tentative, which means that they should be readily changed for better views. It combines both anicca and anatta into one bullet for shooting through the personality views. The Korean wise man's "Only don't know" tells me that I don't have to be upset when somebody tells me that I am wrong. Thank you for all this, Howard. By the way, have you ever been to Thailand? How did you get to know and love Ven. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's teachings? Kindest regards, Tep ======== 40492 From: Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi Howard and TG, You guys missed my question. How do we abandon without rejecting? Howard, put your hand on your chest. That thump thump thump is a _sign_ of the physical life force. You know it is there the same way you know there is visible object, because the Buddha said so. Larry 40493 From: Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 11:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Teach Abhidhamma (Was: abhidhamma - - -... Hi, Tep - In a message dated 1/2/05 7:07:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepyawa@m... writes: > By the way, have you ever been to Thailand? -------------------------------------- Howard: No I haven't, even though a Thai Monk know at a U.S. wat near me once offered to "serve as a guide" for me were I to go there with him when he goes! :-) ------------------------------------- How did you get to know > > and love Ven. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's teachings? > ------------------------------------ Howard: Unfortunately only by reading three of his books. (I also have the Suan Mokkh web site bookmarked.) ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40494 From: Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi Mike, M: "Cakkhuvi~n~naa.na is 'mind', 'citta', isn't it? How do you mean 'part of mind'?" L: Part of the mind category of the sense base formula. M: "Of course as citta it must have an object, visible form--physical (ruupa) object, not mental (naama) I think." L: The formula says mind and mental object. Plus we shouldn't forget the 5-door process arises in the mind-door. I am interpreting this a little differently from traditional abhidhamma. M: "Do you mean jiivitindriya? I know this as a condition, a paccaya, and as a universal cetasika. Is there a 'life-force' ruupa I'm not aware of?" L: Yes, jiivitindriya (life-force) is a rupa, a cetasika, and a condition. M: "I don't understand why you would say that it 'arises externally in the world of rupa'--" L: External to the mind base. What is physically alive is the body. Does the body live in the mind? The same argument goes for all the rupas that can only be cognized through the mind door. They are not included in the sense base formula. Larry 40495 From: Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 4:57pm Subject: Vism.XIV,128 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 128. Herein, 'pleasure' has the characteristic of experiencing a desirable tangible datum. Its function is to intensify associated states. It is manifested as bodily enjoyment. Its proximate cause is the body faculty. 'Pain' has the characteristic of experiencing an undesirable tangible datum. It function is to wither associated states. It is manifested as bodily affliction. Its proximate cause is the body faculty. 'Joy' has the characteristic of experiencing a desirable object. Its function is to exploit55 in one way or another the desirable aspect. It is manifested as mental enjoyment. Its proximate cause is tranquility. 'Grief' has the characteristic of experiencing an undesirable object. Its function is to exploit in one way or another the undesirable aspect. It is manifested as affliction. Its proximate cause is invariably the heart-basis. 'Equanimity' has the characteristic of being felt as neutral. Its function is not to intensify or wither associated states much. It is manifested as peacefulness. Its proximate cause is consciousness without happiness.56 This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the feeling aggregate. ---------------------------- Note 55. Sambhoga--'exploiting': not in this sense in P.T.S. Dict. (see also Ch. XVII,51). Note 56. 'Pleasure and pain respectively gratify and afflict by acting in one way on the body and in another way on the mind, but not so equanimity, which is why the latter is described as of one class. 'Just as, when a man places a piece of cottonwool on an anvil and strikes it with an iron hammer, and his hammer goes right through the cotton and hits the anvil, the violence of the blow is great, so too because the violence of the impact's blow is great, body-consciousness is accompanied by pleasure when the object is a desirable or desirable-neutral one, and by pain when the object is an undesirable or undesirable-neutral one. [It is the impact of the primary matter (tangible object) on the primaries of the body.] 'Herein, though profitable-resultant and unprofitable-resultant consciousness discriminated according to the desirable and undesirable might logically be associated with pleasure and pain, nevertheless the eight kinds of consciousness that have the eye, etc., as their support (34)-(37) and (50)-(53) are invariably associated only with equanimity, because of the gentleness of the impact's blow in the case of two instances of derived matter, like that of two pieces of cotton wool' (Pm.482). For simile see DhsA. 263. 40496 From: Andrew Levin Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 6:19pm Subject: Apology for my previous post (re:abhidhamma and Andrew L) Please excuse me for that post was done in an insensitive and mischeivous fashion. I have read some good dhamma talks tonight that are keeping me elated and I realize I have done wrong in posting that as I did. Carry on then. Sarah, I would still like if you could reply to the main points about how my practise will unfold, even if the post itself was questionable. Anything that didn't satisfy you just ask me about and I'll re-work it. Happy Holidays, Andrew L. 40497 From: Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 2:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi, Larry (and TG) -- In a message dated 1/2/05 7:42:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard and TG, > > You guys missed my question. How do we abandon without rejecting? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, as I said, I understand "to abandon" as meaning "to not cling to" or "to not be attached to". That doesn't mean to push away - it doesn't mean to meet with aversion. ----------------------------------------- > > Howard, put your hand on your chest. That thump thump thump is a _sign_ > of the physical life force. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I don't deny the beating of the heart, Larry. And the electrochemical basis for it is well known. There are millions of conditions that cooperate to maintain a functioning organism, many of which are known to modern biology and medicine. Physical life force is not one that is known. Might there be such a thing? Well, maybe. But I doubt it. ----------------------------------------- You know it is there the same way you know> > there is visible object, because the Buddha said so. ----------------------------------------- Howard: Really!! The Buddha also spoke of Mount Sumeru, but I don't believe in that either. In any case, I do believe the Buddha's Dhamma, and, in particular, I believe the correctness of the Buddha's teaching in the Kalama Sutta to not accept merely on the basis of authority. I certainly do not know something "because the Buddha said so"! That reminds me of the Bumper sticker that reads "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it!" I hold this life force matter in abeyance, but my current belief is that there is no such thing. Might I be wrong? Well, sure! ------------------------------------------------ > > Larry > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40498 From: Ai Le Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 7:09pm Subject: groups.yahoo.com/group/life-atmosphere/message/656 This is a repost of the writing of my present answer -- Message # 655 -- in a different font, so that the word 'Ill' is readable, not looking like three letter l's or the roman numeral 3: My present answer is six things: 1. parable of the saw / metta 2. anatta 3. four aryan truths (also the 'four noble truths') [this is Ill, Arising of Ill, Cessation of Ill, and the path leading to the cessation of Ill] 4. anicca, dukkha, anatta 5. somethings I get from the 'Happy' chapter of the 'Dhammapada' 6. Majjhima Nikaya 19 The difference between my # 2 listing and my # 4 listing is that 'anatta' ("not-self") "is a kind of view that goes with metta ( parable of the saw/metta are the # 1 listing, first thing in my mind). I think in the past it went like this or something like this: when I completed my parable of the saw meditation (# 1 listing), I would then let go further (?) with anatta". The # 4 listing -- anicca, dukkha, anatta -- was what was called the 'paramita' ('paramita' the term for one of the ten 'perfections' of a bodhisattva?) of 'wisdom' (panna'?), in the book 'The Buddha and His Teachings' or titled something like that, by Narada (Maha Thera? Maha Thera = Great Elder?). Here's something like my way or my way on "anicca, dukkha, anatta": what is impermanent (anicca), that is ill (dukkha); what is ill, that is not-self (anatta); what is not-self, one should regard as 'this is not mine, this am not I, this is not my self'. Majjhima Nikaya 19 (# 6 listing) is, ACCORDING TO ME, the teaching on the three right thoughts of renunciation, non-ill will, and (right) thoughts imbued with harmlessness, as opposed to the (three) thoughts of sense desires, ill will, and thoughts imbued with harmfulness. Ai SOURCE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/life-atmosphere/message/656 40499 From: Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 10:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi Howard, I don't think we are arguing the same point but I'll try one last volley. I said you know there is something, somewhere called life which is not included in the sense bases the same way you know there is a visible object, as a matter of faith or reason. You have said many times, as a phenomenologist, there is no such a phenomenon as a directly verifiable visible object separate and distinct from consciousness. The Buddha said there truely is such a phenomenon, but I don't thnk he said it was directly verifiable. So, reason must be an acceptable means of knowledge. Given that we have to reason about sense object, why can't we reason about other rupa which are not incuded in the sense bases? I could give you the list but I suspect you would reject most of them. How about nutriment? Will that do? If not, I think we've reached an impass. Larry 40500 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 10:20pm Subject: Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Friend Charles, Charles: Do you believe the "only" goal of the Buddha was to find the way(s) by which suffering would be brought to and end? James: Yes. Charles: Do you believe the Buddha found that way(s) and documented (dictated) it in hisDharma (i.e., sutras and vinya)? James: Yes. Charles: If so then please look at the sutras and vinya for the answer. James: The answer to what? Charles: The Buddha often mentioned gods in the sutras, and I don't recall ever reading that the Buddha thought that they were just figments of imagination; in fact, he even defined a God realm as part of semsaric existence. So, in this sense, the gods are real. Therefore, it can not be a false view (a lie) to believe in their relative, or semsaric, existence. James: This is a different matter. You are speaking of the god/deva realms of the 32 planes of existence; I was speaking of the cosmology that was in existence in India before the time of the Buddha. Remember, this was 2,500 years ago and the Indian population believed, for the most part, that gods made the sun and moon move across the sky and they made it rain. According to this cosmology, these were fixed gods and did not die nor were they born. Actually, what the Buddha taught, about the god realms (and other ascetics were knowledgeable about) he knew through concentration meditation which had developed psychic powers. Not all of the Indian population believed in these realms because the Buddha taught that beings were spontaneously reborn there and that they die- even Brahma, the highest and supposedly creator god…(who it appears you worship, btw). So, these are two different sets of views. Charles: The Buddha also declared in the sutras that the gods suffered too, that is why even they listen to his Dharma, and some are freed from it. Now, "what is that false view": James: No, but again this is a different belief. Charles: In my opinion: The Buddha pointed out the way to be freed from suffering, he called it the 8-fold path. The gods are not listed as part of this way. To believe other will only distract you from the real work (the 8-fold path). James: I don't understand your point here. Charles: Now don't get me wrong, I am also a born again Christian; So I whole hearted believe in God; I just don't believe God is responsible for my suffering. James: Interesting. The "suffering" of Buddhism is inherent to life so a creator God would of course be responsible. Also, I don't know if you are aware of this or not, but the Buddha taught that belief in a creator God is wrong view (DN 1). Metta, James 40501 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 10:44pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 90 - Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (b) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** Cetanå or kamma which motivates a good deed or a bad deed falls away immediately together with the citta, but since each citta is succeeded by the next one, kamma is accumulated and thus it can produce its result later on, even in a next life. How do we know whether there is a next life? We will understand more about the next life if we understand our life right now. By the term ‘human life’ in conventional language we mean the duration of time we are in this human plane of existence. However, in order to know the truth we should know realities, not merely conventional terms. In fact, our life consists of innumerable moments of citta which arise and fall away, succeeding one another. There is birth and death of citta at each moment and thus life lasts as long as one moment of citta. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40502 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 2, 2005 11:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Dear Larry, Howard, TG & Mike, I'm following your threads and wish to add a little on ayatanas (bases/sense fields). As is apparent in the heading, ‘Salayatana’, it is the internal and external ayatanas being referred to in the suttas such as the Sabba Sutta in Salayatanasamyutta, SN, which you're discussing. Let me just add a short recap mostly taken from an earlier post I wrote. (there's much more under ‘Sabba Sutta’ and ‘Ayatana’ in Useful Posts) Ayatana (bases, sense fields) ******* a) 6 internal bases 1. eye-base/sense (cakkhu pasada rupa = cakkhayatana etc) 2. ear-base 3. nose-base 4. tongue-base 5. body-sense base 6. mind-base/consciousness (manaayatana) (refers to all cittas) ...... b) 6 external bases 1. visible object (rupayatana etc) 2. sound 3. odour 4. taste 5. tactile object - cohesion, temperature, solidity 6. mind-object (dhammayatana)* ....... *Note: Dhammayatana (mind-objects) Includes: 1. All cetasikas 2. subtle rupas (sukhuma rupas) 3. nibbana ....... Note: Ayatanas refer ONLY to ultimate realities (paramattha dhammas) and NOT to concepts. ================================================= So, Larry, in the classification above, cetana (kamma) is included in dhammayatana (mind-objects) and so is jivitindriya (life-force which is a cetasika) and all other cetasikas. Jivitindriya the rupa is a subtle rupa and is therefore also included in the same group. Eye consciousness is included in manaayatana (mind-base) here. Understanding the ayatanas is an understanding of the ‘all’, but not just by theory of course! But at least we can see there is NOT ‘more to reality than the internal and external sense bases.’ With regard to the terms you’re discussing TG and Howard, I wrote the following before as well: >Confusions arise from translated terms of dhamma, dhammarammana, mano, manayatana, dhammayatana etc . Furthemore, sometimes, dhammarammana refers to dhammayatana and we have to look at the context and commentary notes. ..... Note: dhamma can refer to paramattha dhammas only or to dhammarammana inc pannatti and has to be understood in context. Under ‘Salayatana’, only paramattha dhammas are being referred to as hown in the definitions above. ..... A rough guide to Bodhi and Thanissaro translations here: B.Bodhi:- ayatana -base mano (manayatana)- mind, mental dhamma (dhammayatana), dhammarammana- mental phenomenon, mental object, mind object B.Thanissaro:- mano (manayatana) - intellect dhamma (dhammayatana) - ideas ..... Under Salayatanasamyutta, we have looked at translations of the Sabba Sutta before. The Comy notes make it clear that the all (sabba) refers to everything knowable, the all of the sense bases (aayatanasabba), the 12 ayatana. ..... Note: intellect and ideas as used by Thanissaro Bhikkhu below, refer to manayatana and dhammayatana as classified above: i.e cittas, cetasikas, subtle rupas and nibbana. (I believe the notes he gives after the sutta (see link) are therefore incorrect). These are not easy aspects to comprehend, but I hope these notes may help clarify a little other discussions about sutta passages being discussed where there is some controversy about whether paramattha dhammas or pannatti are being referred to by translation terms, such as mind, mind objects, intellect or ideas. Of course any comments are welcome. For more details on ayatanas, see posts under ‘ayatana’ at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ***** Metta, Sarah ======= 40503 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Andrew L, Your messages have all been fine and packed with deep reflections. Just don’t mind if I or anyone else here is slow to respond anytime. This is incredibly fast for me;-). --- Andrew Levin wrote: >…but it appears to me that since > citta and cetasika are two of the fundamental units described in > Abhidharma, the contemplation on consciousness most especially would > benefit from a thorough knowledges of consciousness and its associated > states. And in this case knowing the exact factor of energy that is > described in ACM o A seems better to me than knowing "I need to > cultivate energy" (although this happens to be contemplations on > dhammas, the same principle would apply to consciousness and the > nature of all its associated states). …. S: Yes, good points. By consciousness under cittanupassana is meant the citta and accompanying cetasikas. These also are all included in dhammanupassana, for example under the khandhas (aggregates). Viriya (energy) accompanies almost all of those cittas (not seeing consciousness, hearing etc and one or two more. So it is included with consciousness and dhammas. The same as you say for other associated states. It helps a lot to understand viriya as a mental state that is conditioned to arise with almost every citta regardless of whether one is flat on one’s back or jumping up and down, reading a Dhamma text or watching TV. No self involved. …. > Contemplation on the repulsive nature of the body, of contemplation of > the body in the body, is said to be able to lead one to the > realization of Truth (3rd Noble Truth), and the end of clinging is > described in another. Is this not too the deliverance of mind? > Doesn't that the Buddha said "Whoever practises these four foundations > of mindfulness [for XYZ periods of time] can experience [arahantship > or the state of non-return] say something about *supramundane* > awareness? Maybe it doesn't, if I'm not in the know, please tell me. … S: You’re correct, but this is the result of the development of satipatthana. The development of satipatthana is the understanding of the various dhammas which will eventually lead to the full realization of the 4 Noble Truths. As it develops, there is less doubt and less concern about when and how this will happen as I see it. …. > I see your view is more 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life'ish where mine is > 'Four Foundations of Mindfulness are life'ish. When mindfulness is > thoroughly established, reality after reality instantaneously can be > observed, so fast that you might say the person is being mindful of > all things going on in the body at once. …. S: ;-). I’d like to think my view is both Abhidhammaish and Satipatthanaish as there isn’t any distinction for me. You say ‘when mindfulness is thoroughly established’, but again I think you’re looking at the end result or the ariyan knowledge rather than the development now. Even so, only a Buddha has the kind of omniscient knowledge you might be referring to. Even arahants without any defilements remainng can only be aware of one reality appearing at a time and then not with every citta. Impossible, as panna (wisdom) can only arise with javana cittas rooted in wisdom. So there’s never going to be a mindfulness of ‘all things going on in the body at once’, but I’ll be glad to see any reference. …. > In fact this makes me wonder, can there not be two cittas arising at > the same time? Eg one for body-consciousness one for > hearing-consciousness? … S: No. You’ll find in CMA that processes of cittas follow each other by various conditions. Only ever one citta at a time. It may seem that we can hear and experience through the body sense at the same time, but it’s impossible. Also, after each series of cittas through the ear door or body door, there has to be at least one process of cittas through the mind door(usually many, many), before another sense door series arises. … >And where is consciousness of the different > sense doors located in the mind-body complex? …. S: Would you elaborate on your question please. Seeing consciousness (if that’s an example of what you’re referring to) depends on eye-base (a rupa in the eye)to experience visible object, but we cannot say the seeing consciousness itself is anywhere. Thinking consciousness depends on heart-base, but similarly is not located anywhere. … S:> > away and that it's quite possible for awareness to be aware of these > > states from time to time. > A:> Or all the time. This is possible, isn't it? … S: No, not even for an arahant as I mentioned before. For example, moments of seeing and hearing are only accompanied by the 7 universal cetasikas. They are vipaka cittas (result of kamma). There cannot be awareness with vipaka cittas. …. S:> > sense that they can be known. They can be the objects of awareness > when > > they arise and are seen as merely conditioned elements, not a person. > A:> Right but you missed the point. I was using that example to show that > this psycho-physical organism acted as a whole to guard the sense > doors. I am just not sure here how to reconcile the idea 'don't be > attached to concept of self' with 'Whoever practises these four > foundations of mindfulness'. Can you see? …. S: When we talk about ‘this psycho-physical organism acted as a whole’, it is a concept, an illusion. There never is a ‘whole’ except conventionally speaking. (The same applies when we speak about people and Gods as in another thread;-)). I see your point, but when it is said ‘whoever practises’, it is mere conventional usage. We have to read all the suttas in the light of anatta. Really, like the chariot, ‘whoever’ only consists of cittas, cetasikas and rupas conditioned in different combinations and ways. It is sati-sampajanna (sati and panna) which practises these four foundations of mindfulness’. Satipatthana Sutta sub-cmy: “ ‘Necessary in all Circumstances’ = Everywhere in the state of becoming, in every sluggish and unbalanced state of mind, it is desirable…….Here, contemplation takes place by means of wisdom that is assisted by mindfulness.” …. S:> > the time to be aware of anger. If it is hardness being experienced > as one > > types, it's not the time to be aware of feeling or attachment. > A:> Right, but if I'm walking down the streets and there's my entire body > made up of the four elements, I can try to be mindful of as much of > those four elements as possible, right? The different organs, the > interaction of material form with the outside world? The many > different types of bodily feeling that occur so close together in time > that it's almost all at once? …. S: This is thinking about concepts of elements, organs and so on. Most precious at such times is awareness of thinking – another conditioned dhamma (cittanupassana). The ideas or concepts cannot be known, but the thinking can. …. > Ehh I would hesitate to lose my mindfulness down to one or two nama or > rupa (in the conventional sense) when coming back indoors for study or > formal practise or work. …. S: Everything is lost at every moment. Mindfulness can only arise for an instant and then gone. Don’t cling to it or expect it or try to make it last!! As we’re comparing the way we both see practice, I’d say that I see such clinging to mindfulness that has arisen or may arise in the future as being a very big impediment to such practice. Keep posting your reflections (no need for apologies if any ‘mischief’ slips in – we’re all pretty understanding here of mixed mental states;-)). In addition to the other book suggestions, it would be helpful if you could purchase or download and bind copies of ‘Cetasikas’ and Nina’s ‘ADL’.They are really very helpful reference texts to have handy. Also her ‘Conditions’ and ‘Rupas’ (not published). My other suggestion would be to listen to the audio recordings of our discussions with A.Sujin recently in India and let me know how you find them. Scroll to the bottom of this page: http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ Metta, Sarah p.s I support Phil's concern when you use the other name tag and I think it's better avoided, but of course let us know anytime you're in trouble and we can help. ======= 40504 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 0:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention & Infections , Vibhanga. Dear Nina, As I said I was curious about what you wrote here (and perhaps I misunderstand you too, in which case I'd be glad for any clarification): --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > When we refer to wise attention, it is not the cetasika manasikara but > the > mind-door adverting consciousness that is followed by javana cittas, > kusala > cittas or akusala cittas. This is called javana patipada or controller > of > the javanas. Another citta called manasikara is the five sense-door > advertinng consciousness, the controller of the sense-door process. > Thus, > manasikara can refer to cetasika and to two cittas. … S: You seem to be saying that references to wise and unwise attention refer to mind-door adverting consciousness only rather than the manasikara which accompanies the kusala and akusala javana cittas. Whilst I realize manasikara itself can refer to the two cittas as you mention, when I look in the texts, when ‘yoniso’ and ‘ayoniso’ are used, it seems that it is the (wise and unwise) attention accompanying the javana cittas that are being referred to instead. I’ve looked in the Atthasalini, the Vibhanga and the Netti, as well as references in a couple of commentary notes (eg to the Sabbasava Sutta), and they all suggest to me that yoniso and ayoniso are not being used to refer to the mind-door adverting consciousness and it doesn’t seem to me that it is this citta which is being referred to as the condition for other wholesome states. The Atth. (p385)even says of kiriya cittas (of course inc mind-door adverting), that 'owing to the absence of moral and immoral causes of wise and unwise attention, it is said to be neither moral nor immoral.' I’d be glad if you’d give any further comments. Also, this is what we read in your ADL which I quoted previously and understand to be correct: “When the cittas of the sense-door process have fallen away the object is experienced through the mind-door. The mano-dvaravajjana-citta adverts to the object through the mind-door and is then followed by akusala cittas or kusala cittas. There is 'unwise attention' (ayoniso manasikara) to the object which is experienced if akusala cittas arise, and there is 'wise attention' (yoniso manasikara) to the object if kusala cittas arise. For example, when we see insects there may be dosa-mula-cittas (cittas rooted in aversion). Thus, there is ayoniso manasikara (unwise attention).” …. S: Here there seems no suggestion that yoniso and ayoniso are referring to any other manasikara other than that which accompanies the kusala and akusala cittas. (Also in ‘Cetasikas’ p 226). In the Netti (p170) it gives the lists of the ‘corrupting’ and ‘cleansing’ factors and these seem to refer to various mental factors too, inc yoniso and ayoniso manasikara. I also looked at the Vighanga transl definition p483 and I read it the same. Am I missing something? Grateful for any further clarification. Metta, Sarah ======= 40505 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 0:52am Subject: Re: Book recommendations --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Levin" wrote: > joop, do you have any more recommendations in line with swallowing the > river ganges? i own that one and have even thought of buying more > copies of it. > > thanks, > a.l. Andrew Buying more copies doesn't work Sit in (half) lotus, close your eyes, stop thinking and pay attention to your breath Metta Joop 40506 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 0:49am Subject: Hello : new member I found this group as I was browsing for information about paramis. I was born and raised in Burma. My family moved to America back in 91. Currently, I'm a graduate student at UC Berkeley in Electrical Engineering. I grew up with Theravada teachings so I do have some common knowledge. Unfortunately I didn't start meditating seriously until two summers ago despite my childhood exposure. For the past year, I also have been taking introductory Abhidhamma course at a Burmese monastery. I noticed this group is very technical and precise in the materials posted. Just hoping to learn and trade information from the discussions here. - Kel 40507 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 1:04am Subject: Re: Book recommendations < abhidhamma, "A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidharma," > and begun to study it. I have much respect for anyone who can study Abhidhamma on their own and understand it. I found it quite dense to absorb everything. http://www.buddhanet.net/ebooks_m.htm I would say that is fairly good coverage of different traditions and approaches for your own practice. A few popular teachers from Burma are listed there also. I would recommend for more veteran meditators, http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/cittanupassana5.pdf If possible I would recommend learning at a center. I found http://www.dhamma.org/ centers to be most convenient whenever I can't go to Burma. - Kel 40508 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Suravira: Problems in My Understanding: Sarah Hi TG, --- TGrand458@a... wrote: > Issue #1 Sarah: -- Yes I am saying that ‘Stream > Entry eliminates false views permanently ("for good") ‘. …. I know I didn’t respond to all your posts on this, but I think Nina responded to any points I missed. Please let me know if there’s anything outstanding. …. > Issue #2 Sarah: > Are you > saying that > it is wrong to suggest these clarifications are the Buddha’s teaching? > > TG: Yes, I think it is wrong to say so… …. S: I wouldn’t say (and haven’t said)that the Buddha taught the commentaries, but yes, I would say the content, like the Abhidhamma and ancient Pali commentaries, is in accordance with the Buddha’s Teachings and can therefore be considered as the ‘Buddha’s Word’. Pls see these past messages of mine on this topic: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/29637 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35687 … > Once its being said that the Abhidhammamatthasangaha or Visuddhdimagga > or > Vimuttimagga are what the Buddha taught, I don't see how anyone can take > the > position that the Lotus Sutra, or Heart Sutra or Diamond Sutra are not > what the > Buddha taught. Where do you draw the line? … S: I draw the line at what has been accepted by the Theravada Councils. So I wouldn’t include the Vimuttimagga or the Mahayana Sutras, no matter how many gems they might contain if they were not in conformity with what we read in the Pali Tipitaka and commentaries;-). … > My guess would be that Buddhaghosa would be the first one to say that > only > the Sutta, Vinaya, and maybe Abhidhamma quotes in the Visuddhimagga are > the > Buddha's teachings. The rest is analysis. Pretty damn good analysis in > my view. …. S: In the introductory discourse in the Atthasalini, Buddhaghosa goes to lengths to show that the Abhidhamma is the Buddha’s teaching even though he only gave the outline to Sariputta. Also, all the suttas, including those given by or elaborated on by his disciples are all attributed to being ‘the word of the Buddha’ since he gave his approval for this. Even when it comes to the Kathavatthu, we read in the same discourse: “…the Buddha laid down the table of contents….In doing so he foresaw that two hundred and eighteen years after his death, Tissa, Moggali’s son, seated in the midst of one thousand bhikkhus, would elaborate the Kathavatthu ….And Tissa, Moggali’s son, expounded the book not by his own knowledge but according to the table of contents laid down, as well as by the method given, by the Teacher. Hence the entire book became the word of the Buddha….” Also from Dhammapala’s comy to the Netti-ppakara.na’m, he writes that ‘any text not in contradiction (when examined) under the four Prinicipal Appeals to Authority is the criterion. And the ‘Guide-Treatise’ has. Like the Pe.takopadesa come down (to us) by way of the unimpeachable succession of teachers (see DA introduction).” > But probably not flawless. Even Buddhaghosa ends the Visuddhimagga by > suggesting that it probably contains a few errors. He knows or suspects > its not > flawless! He knows it has a lot of analysis. … S: I believe his work was based on the early commentaries and I don’t believe he takes any credit for any of it being his own ideas or analysis. He was a compiler and so it may contain a few errors as he suggests. The Dhamma is our teacher. Of course, it’s a matter for wisdom to really determne what the Dhamma really is. I’d like to sign off and leave you with a quote from I.B.Horner which I’ve given before but which pretty well expresses my take on the subject. As you said, our other discussion was far more important for understanding and practice, but this may help to explain my use of the ‘the Buddha taught…..’ when referring to paramattha dhammas or other commentary and Abhidhamma terminology which I believe is also referring to exactly what the Buddha taught in the Suttanta too. Metta, Sarah >Often in the suttas too, we read many references to the Buddha’s..... Miss Horner also wrote in her preface to the the same text, ‘Clarifier of Sweet Meaning: “The prime object of every Commentary is to make the meanings of the words and phrases in the canonical passages it is elucidating abudantly clear, definite, definitive even, ‘heuristic’ in E.Hardy’s words, and virtually beyond all doubt and argument. This is to preserve the Teaching of the Buddha as nearly as possible in the sense intended, and as conveyed by the succession of teachers, aacariyaparamparaa. Always there were detractors, always there were and still are ‘improvers’ ready with their own notions. Through enemies and friends alike deleterious change and deterioration in the word of the Buddha might intervene for an indefinite length of time. The ctys are the armour and protection against such an eventuality. Asmthey hold a unique position as preservers and interpreters of true dhamma, it is essential not only to understand them but to follow them carefully and adopt the meaning they ascribe to a word or phrase each time they comment on it. They are as “closed” now as is the Pali canon. No additions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to be contemplated, and no cty written in later days could be included in it.”< ===================== 40509 From: Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 1:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] The All & Nibbana Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/3/05 1:14:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I don't think we are arguing the same point but I'll try one last > volley. I said you know there is something, somewhere called life which > is not included in the sense bases the same way you know there is a > visible object, as a matter of faith or reason. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I don't think they are similar. Visual content is my direct experience. Life force is not. Some infer it, but I do not. --------------------------------------------- You have said many> > times, as a phenomenologist, there is no such a phenomenon as a directly > verifiable visible object separate and distinct from consciousness. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I say they co-occur and are mutually dependent. From my perspective, 'object' means "object of consciousness". Visual object and experience of such (i.e., its experiential presence) are distinguishable but inseparable. Neither arises without the other. In any case, life force is not something I experience. (Perhaps if I were an arahant, it would be, but this I do not know.) --------------------------------------- The> > Buddha said there truely is such a phenomenon, but I don't thnk he said > it was directly verifiable. --------------------------------------- Howard: In the suttas the Buddha spoke of many things in a conventional manner. He spoke of persons for example. This doesn't necessarily imply ontological commitment. In any case, if something is not directly verifiable by a Buddha, how could he truly know of its existence? --------------------------------------- So, reason must be an acceptable means of> > knowledge. -------------------------------------- Howard: It can be a useful tool, but on its own it is not an adequate means of knowledge. In that regard, see what the Buddha said about it in the Kalama Sutta. In any case, from what we directly know, there is no inescapable deductive conclusion of the existence of life force. There are loads of good "reasoners" in the fields of biology and medicine, basically *all* of them, who do not draw such a conclusion. -------------------------------------- Given that we have to reason about sense object, why can't we> > reason about other rupa which are not incuded in the sense bases? I > could give you the list but I suspect you would reject most of them. How > about nutriment? Will that do? If not, I think we've reached an impass. > ------------------------------------- Howard: I certainly do accept logically valid (i.e., deductively inescapable) conclusions from directly verifiable premisses. I don't see any evidence of that here.So, perhaps it is an impass. [Again, this does not mean that I assert that there are no such things as life force and nutriment in more than the conventional senses. Perhaps there are. I just have no reason for believing so at present.] ------------------------------------- > > Larry > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40510 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 8:24am Subject: Re: Hello : new member Hello Kelvin - Welcome to the DSG forum! As an electrical engineer you might find it easier to understand the citta vithi (process of consciousness) and the 24 modes of conditionality (paccaya). How do you view the Abhidhamma in the perspective of electrical engineering? Warm regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > > I found this group as I was browsing for information about > paramis. I was born and raised in Burma. My family moved to > America back in 91. Currently, I'm a graduate student at UC > Berkeley in Electrical Engineering. > 40511 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 8:58am Subject: Buddhadasa Bhikkhu Dear Howard - Exceptional Dhamma teachers are very good at explaining difficult concepts and theories. However, the real skill of great teachers, I think, is seen in their ability to clearly define the basics like sati and sampajanna. Below are Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's definitions of these two terms. Do you think he passed the test? Sati: "Sati (mindfulness, reflective awareness, recollection) is the quick awareness and recall of the things which must be recalled. It must be as quick as an arrow. We also can describe sati as a vehicle or transport mechanism of the fastest kind. This most rapid transport doesn't carry material things, it carries wisdom and knowledge. Sati delivers panna (wisdom) in time to meet our needs. Through the practice of mindfulness with breathing, sati is trained fully". Sampajanna: "The second dhamma is sampajanna. Sampajanna is wisdom as it meets up with and immediately confronts a problem, as it deals with and wipes out that problem -- this is wisdom-in-action. It is only that wisdom specifically related and applied to a particular situation or event. Nonetheless, you may have come across a variety of translations for 'sampajanna,' which can be rather confusing. We recommend that you remember it as 'wisdom-in-action'. Even better, learn the Pali word about which there is no doubt. The word 'wisdom' encompasses many meanings and understandings, we can't even begin to estimate its content. However, the word 'sampajanna' is far more limited in its meaning. It is exactly that wisdom directly needed for the problem that confronts us. Active wisdom isn't general, it is a matter of particulars". Buddha-Dhamma Buddhadasa Archives II. THE USE OF DHAMMA: YOUR PRACTICE OF DHAMMA (February 6, 1986) -------------------------------------------- Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > In a message dated 1/2/05 7:07:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, tepyawa@m... > writes: > > ------------------------------------- > How did you get to know > > > and love Ven. Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's teachings? > > > ------------------------------------ > Howard: > Unfortunately only by reading three of his books. (I also have the > Suan Mokkh web site bookmarked.) > ===================== > With metta, > Howard 40512 From: Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 4:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhadasa Bhikkhu Hi, Tep - In a message dated 1/3/05 11:59:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, tepyawa@m... writes: > Dear Howard - > > Exceptional Dhamma teachers are very good at explaining difficult > concepts and theories. However, the real skill of great teachers, I think, > is seen in their ability to clearly define the basics like sati and > sampajanna. Below are Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's definitions of these > two terms. Do you think he passed the test? --------------------------------- Howard: Well. I'm not so sure who the "heck" I'm supposed to be to be testing the likes of him! ;-) But in any case, I'l give my perspective on these definitions below. -------------------------------- > > Sati: > > "Sati (mindfulness, reflective awareness, recollection) is the quick > awareness and recall of the things which must be recalled. It must be > as quick as an arrow. We also can describe sati as a vehicle or > transport mechanism of the fastest kind. This most rapid transport > doesn't carry material things, it carries wisdom and knowledge. Sati > delivers panna (wisdom) in time to meet our needs. Through the > practice of mindfulness with breathing, sati is trained fully". > > Sampajanna: > > "The second dhamma is sampajanna. Sampajanna is wisdom as it > meets up with and immediately confronts a problem, as it deals with > and wipes out that problem -- this is wisdom-in-action. It is only that > wisdom specifically related and applied to a particular situation or > event. Nonetheless, you may have come across a variety of > translations for 'sampajanna,' which can be rather confusing. We > recommend that you remember it as 'wisdom-in-action'. Even better, > learn the Pali word about which there is no doubt. The word 'wisdom' > encompasses many meanings and understandings, we can't even > begin to estimate its content. However, the word 'sampajanna' is far > more limited in its meaning. It is exactly that wisdom directly needed for > the problem that confronts us. Active wisdom isn't general, it is a matter > of particulars". > ======================== As I see it, the 2nd definition is pretty much okay, but I have some problems with the first. First of all, sati need not "carry wisdom". It is one requisite condition for the (eventual) arising of wisdom. I do not see sati as a "delivery agent". Now, as to exactly what sati is I'm not sure. What I *think* it may be is the recalling or keeping in mind to maintain attention to whatever is arising in the moment. It performs a monitoring function, as I see it. When that remembering to attend is strong, then, subject to other conditions, attention also will be strong, and this may lead to arising of clear comprehension. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40513 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 10:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Availability of three suttas, bojjhangas. Hi Steve and Andrew L, What a coincidence. Just today I discussed with Lodewijk the Fire Sutta! It is in Wheel 318/321. Any of you folks know how to get to wheel on line? It is wonderful. I read the Thai Co. also. It states that sati is most important, valuable in all circumstances. It is like the seasoning salt. Looking at the Ch on the bojjhangas, I found that I should make a study of it. I have a special sutta notebook. I like to discuss this chapter with you, Andrew. The subject is deep, not easy to understand, I find. (S V. 94) Restraint and Hindrances: when one intently listens to the Dhamma, considers it, there are no hindrances and the seven limbs of wisdom by cultivation go to fulfilment. We see here the value of listening and study. I have the PTS but would like to know whether there is a metta edition on line. op 02-01-2005 23:56 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: > Samyutta Nikaya, Mahavagga, Bojjhangasamyutta, Fire Sutta > (Aggisuttam), p.1605 in Bhikkhu Bodhis translation. 40514 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 11:52am Subject: Re: Buddhadasa Bhikkhu Hi, Howard - I am sorry for asking you to evaluate Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's teaching ability. The U.S. consumers' habit of evaluating everything and passing judgement to everybody (including their own parents and teachers) might be a reason behind this behavior of mine. ;-)) There are several ways to define sati. Your definition is pretty good and it is concise too. The following is a very good explanation of sati, I like it almost as much as the one in DN 22. "Sati is a term in Pali (the language of the Buddhist scriptures) which can be translated as mindfulness, non-forgetfulness or awareness. Sati is a mental factor which accompanies each wholesome moment of consciousness. There are different kinds and degrees of sati. When we are generous there is sati which is non-forgetful of generosity. When we abstain from killing or other unwholesome actions there is sati which prevents us from unwholesomeness. There is sati with the development of calm (tranquil meditation) and it is mindful of the meditation subject. Sati in the development of insight or right understanding of realities has a different object: it is mindful or non- forgetful of a nama or rupa which appears now. At that moment there is no notion of a "self" or something which exists and can stay. We cannot induce sati whenever we want it. Listening to the Dhamma and considering realities which appear can condition the arising of sati". [Understanding Reality by Nina van Gorkom] Warm regards, Tep ====== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Tep - > > As I see it, the 2nd definition is pretty much okay, but I have some > problems with the first. First of all, sati need not "carry wisdom". It is one > requisite condition for the (eventual) arising of wisdom. I do not see sati as > a "delivery agent". Now, as to exactly what sati is I'm not sure. What I > *think* it may be is the recalling or keeping in mind to maintain attention to > whatever is arising in the moment. It performs a monitoring function, as I see > it. When that remembering to attend is strong, then, subject to other > conditions, attention also will be strong, and this may lead to arising of clear > comprehension. > > With metta, > Howard > 40515 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 11:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention Vibhanga. Dear Sarah, op 03-01-2005 09:49 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: S: You seem to be saying that references to wise and unwise attention > refer to mind-door adverting consciousness only rather than the manasikara > which accompanies the kusala and akusala javana cittas. N: I shall check again tetx you gave me, thank you. I recently heard on MP3: manodvaaravajjanacitta is kiriyacitta but it is the means (the way: thaang) for the arising of kusala citta or akusala citta, which are conditioned by accumulations. We should consider the whole lot, javanas included as yoniso or ayonoso, they are so fast anyway. I do not think so much of one cetasika in this context. This cetasika has the task to drive citta and cetasikas to the object. I am thinking more of: controller of the javanas. I was very careful to evade difficulties when I wrote in ADL: < There is 'unwise attention' (ayoniso manasikara) to the object which is experienced if akusala cittas arise, and there is 'wise attention' (yoniso manasikara) to the object if kusala cittas arise.> So, I thought of the whole lot, and I was careful not to limit the yoniso to one citta, the mind-door adverting-consciousness, only. S: I’ve looked in the Atthasalini, the Vibhanga and the Netti, as well as > references in a couple of commentary notes (eg to the Sabbasava Sutta), > and they all suggest to me that yoniso and ayoniso are not being used to > refer to the mind-door adverting consciousness... N: Where do i find the Sabbasavasutta, I could then find the Co. Perhaps also T.A.? and the Dispeller? Where in the Book of Analysis? Thank you, Nina. 40516 From: Larry Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 1:11pm Subject: Re: The All & Nibbana Hi Sarah and Howard, Sarah, thanks for the extra info on ayatanas. As you know I was arguing that no rupa is truly an object of consciousness in the sense of actually arising in the mind door. However, that is my own peculiarity and not abhidhamma. I'm a little uneasy about including nibbana in the ayatanas. For one thing it seems a little awkward to abandon it as in the Abandonment Sutta. Perhaps it would make more sense to say the ayatanas group is merely another way to understand the khandhas, particularly as a vehicle for satipatthana. Again, a personal view. Concept as a category is a little problematical. I would prefer to limit it to views. I think it could be argued that it is impossible to know rupa except as a concept. The sensation of hardness is body consciousness, not rupa. Rupa isn't an experience. At least that's how I understand the nama/rupa distinction. Howard, I don't really have a counter argument, just a couple of questions. How do you know there is an eye? Does your eye cease to exist when there is no eye consciousness? Larry 40517 From: Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 8:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The All & Nibbana Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/3/05 4:14:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard, I don't really have a counter argument, just a couple of > questions. How do you know there is an eye? Does your eye cease to > exist when there is no eye consciousness? > > ===================== I understand 'eye' in a non-organic and non-material-substance sense. (I don't even like the sound of "material substance"! ;-) I understand 'eye' to refer to the active physical capacity to see. Under certain circumstances such as those we conventionally describe as "being blinded" or "going blind" or "having one's eye poked out" or "suffering visual nerve damage", conditions are such that there is not the physical capacity to see - for the moment, or for a long time. Also, I would also say that when one is hearing, for example, the eye is not present - that is, the physical capacity to see is unarisen. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40518 From: Andrew Levin Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 2:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > > Your messages have all been fine and packed with deep reflections. Just > don't mind if I or anyone else here is slow to respond anytime. This is > incredibly fast for me;-). Deep reflections? I dont think so. Maybe the questions are just important, but I wouldnt say deep. > > --- Andrew Levin wrote: > >…but it appears to me that since > > citta and cetasika are two of the fundamental units described in > > Abhidharma, the contemplation on consciousness most especially would > > benefit from a thorough knowledges of consciousness and its associated > > states. And in this case knowing the exact factor of energy that is > > described in ACM o A seems better to me than knowing "I need to > > cultivate energy" (although this happens to be contemplations on > > dhammas, the same principle would apply to consciousness and the > > nature of all its associated states). > …. > S: Yes, good points. By consciousness under cittanupassana is meant the > citta and accompanying cetasikas. These also are all included in > dhammanupassana, for example under the khandhas (aggregates). Viriya > (energy) accompanies almost all of those cittas (not seeing consciousness, > hearing etc and one or two more. So it is included with consciousness and > dhammas. The same as you say for other associated states. It helps a lot > to understand viriya as a mental state that is conditioned to arise with > almost every citta regardless of whether one is flat on one's back or > jumping up and down, reading a Dhamma text or watching TV. No self > involved. > …. Well it's just more precise. What I'm looking to do here is have an understanding not only of what is going on in terms of ultimate realities, but knowing what needs to be done. Like I said, energy is one of the seven factors of enlightenment, now if I am outside doing a mindful walk, and I notice energy in my breathing, I am not sure whether this energy has to be maintained, increased, or what have you, in pursuit of the supramundane paths. Maybe it does, or maybe it is not the time and place for that factor to be in. Ultimately, going beyond the concept 'energy' and knowing the true nature of what is referenced by that word, seems valuable to me in my pursuit of enlightenment. The same applies for all the other cittas and cetasikas, and probably for matter as well, but I am still only re-reading chapter 1 in CMA, so I am not there yet. > > Contemplation on the repulsive nature of the body, of contemplation of > > the body in the body, is said to be able to lead one to the > > realization of Truth (3rd Noble Truth), and the end of clinging is > > described in another. Is this not too the deliverance of mind? > > Doesn't that the Buddha said "Whoever practises these four foundations > > of mindfulness [for XYZ periods of time] can experience [arahantship > > or the state of non-return] say something about *supramundane* > > awareness? Maybe it doesn't, if I'm not in the know, please tell me. > … > S: You're correct, but this is the result of the development of > satipatthana. The development of satipatthana is the understanding of the > various dhammas which will eventually lead to the full realization of the > 4 Noble Truths. As it develops, there is less doubt and less concern about > when and how this will happen as I see it. > …. > > I see your view is more 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life'ish where mine is > > 'Four Foundations of Mindfulness are life'ish. When mindfulness is > > thoroughly established, reality after reality instantaneously can be > > observed, so fast that you might say the person is being mindful of > > all things going on in the body at once. > …. > S: ;-). I'd like to think my view is both Abhidhammaish and > Satipatthanaish as there isn't any distinction for me. > > You say `when mindfulness is thoroughly established', but again I think > you're looking at the end result or the ariyan knowledge rather than the > development now. Even so, only a Buddha has the kind of omniscient > knowledge you might be referring to. Even arahants without any defilements > remainng can only be aware of one reality appearing at a time and then not > with every citta. Impossible, as panna (wisdom) can only arise with javana > cittas rooted in wisdom. So there's never going to be a mindfulness of > `all things going on in the body at once', but I'll be glad to see any > reference. Well, let's try to sort these out. You are saying "one citta can arise at a time." How can we reconcile this with walks that I have taken being mindful of the breath, feelings, and objects of a few sense doors almost concurrently, to the extent that /numerous/ devas appeared overhead streaming above me (more about this in a min.) Would you say that I was just being aware of one bit of consciousness for its split-second duration and then move on to another, to produce the illusion of continuity? It was this fast, it seemed like I was mindful of numerous feelings of pleasure, pain, or neut in my body at different times, and of what I was hearing and seeing at a split-second rate, again, seemingly like I am mindful of it all at once. So I know since this /has/ been acheived by me, it again /can/ be acheived by me, especially if it /needs/ to be acheived by me. So I still do not have a great understanding of consciousness. There was a time when I was getting myself acquianted with the Buddhist path, and I would practise formal sitting meditation at home, and be driving on the streets, I could be mindful of the hindrances that were present, as well as citta(s). Now, I do not feel I have this mindfulness. It has showed up on rare occasion but mostly I think I need a method to create more mindfulness (I have been hospitalized since having that clear awareness... hospitalizations always seem to kill what I have going for me), perhaps I could read an article someone pointed out to me before I move on with my practise. Anyhow, is it that you propose that only one consciousness can exist at a time, and that it alternates rapidly between the different sense doors, creating an illusion of continuity? Well this is sort of what I asked already but even if that's the case, I see some difference in our approach: I am trying to be mindful of every reality as it presents itself to me to the extent of knowing every possible nama or rupa that can be known at a given time, even so it looks like, I am walking, knowing all my bodily feelings, or knowing all the four elements in my mind-body complex. And I would practise each of the foundations for some time, dependent on how results come about. The Abhidhamma approach seems to to be mindful of only a bit here and a bit there-- nothing like the uninterrupted mindfulness that I have as the ideal of my practise. If you were asking for reference, all I can give you is my word. (About the devas, sometimes when I take practise walks I am especially mindful of body in the body or feelings in feelings or both, that is, thoroughly knowing my posture and its minor changes, knowing my breathing (though not knowing how/if it is taking me to the insight knowledges I need), and thoroughly knowing bodily feelings, sometimes mental feelings as they arise. And I try to guard the sense doors, too. So I have read, that the Buddha has told devas, to protect humans who live a religious life. Well, it has been said in many publications that the devas protect one who practises metta in all postures, when it practised boundlessly; this is not such a far cry from that, only I wish I had so much metta to guarantee a good rebirth; but you can be sure that at least a deva or two shine up overhead when I take these mindful walks, usually in the form of either a line streaking through the sky, either even or uneven (like a lightning strike), or as a mass of singular-color matter with static shifting and changing. So I walk out of the park of my town knowing that here I am, a kid in Floral Park, little town in suburban New York, and I know, that there is a heavenly realm, that the Buddha guided people towards, I can see it, but this is not my goal. Although I would like to work on that, that's another post. So I came home that first day of practising *extreme* mindful walks, and had a couple books on basic Buddhist meditations, because my vipassana practise hit a brick wall some months before that, and I was practising loving-kindness, trying to really earn the overlooking I get from the devas, and trying to live up to that 'religious life' instead of being a kid on the computer who's interested in Buddhism.. I just felt such gratitude for both the Buddha and these beings and well this is why I (will) say, when people ask me, oh if your spiritual practise gives you some solace, or if you can find some serenity in religion, I will say (didn't think of it till not too long ago) no, but I have found truth, in the Buddha's teachings. And I can infer a lot, too. But I disgress a large paragraph away. > …. > > In fact this makes me wonder, can there not be two cittas arising at > > the same time? Eg one for body-consciousness one for > > hearing-consciousness? > … > S: No. You'll find in CMA that processes of cittas follow each other by > various conditions. Only ever one citta at a time. It may seem that we can > hear and experience through the body sense at the same time, but it's > impossible. Also, after each series of cittas through the ear door or body > door, there has to be at least one process of cittas through the mind > door(usually many, many), before another sense door series arises. > … > >And where is consciousness of the different > > sense doors located in the mind-body complex? > …. > S: Would you elaborate on your question please. Seeing consciousness (if > that's an example of what you're referring to) depends on eye-base (a rupa > in the eye)to experience visible object, but we cannot say the seeing > consciousness itself is anywhere. Thinking consciousness depends on > heart-base, but similarly is not located anywhere. Where is body-consciousness located? If I feel the wind on my body, that is vedana, but I don't know where that cetasika is physically located - I mean it is an absolute reality, right? It's got to be somewhere either in my leg, or more likely in my head making it feel like it's in my leg. I am unable to see the consciousness of it. > … > S:> > away and that it's quite possible for awareness to be aware of these > > > states from time to time. > > > A:> Or all the time. This is possible, isn't it? > … > S: No, not even for an arahant as I mentioned before. For example, moments > of seeing and hearing are only accompanied by the 7 universal cetasikas. > They are vipaka cittas (result of kamma). There cannot be awareness with > vipaka cittas. Seeing consciousness and hearing consciousness are only the result of kamma, huh? That is kind of a new twist on things for me. It's hard for me to accept that if I idle chatter on #buddhism/EFnet, that is going to change my hearing of the car sounds, horns honking, people talking as I pass the gas station.. etc. I don't see how it's possible, but I won't negate its possibility outright. [snipped] > A:> Right but you missed the point. I was using that example to show that > > this psycho-physical organism acted as a whole to guard the sense > > doors. I am just not sure here how to reconcile the idea 'don't be > > attached to concept of self' with 'Whoever practises these four > > foundations of mindfulness'. Can you see? > …. > S: When we talk about `this psycho-physical organism acted as a whole', it > is a concept, an illusion. There never is a `whole' except conventionally > speaking. (The same applies when we speak about people and Gods as in > another thread;-)). > > I see your point, but when it is said `whoever practises', it is mere > conventional usage. We have to read all the suttas in the light of anatta. > Really, like the chariot, `whoever' only consists of cittas, cetasikas and > rupas conditioned in different combinations and ways. It is > sati-sampajanna (sati and panna) which practises these four > foundations of mindfulness'. > Right, I mean but this is what we're trying to do though. The assurance of attainment can get someone's mental factors in whatever fashion to begin practising to be contemplating all four sections (body, feelings, consciousness, dhammas), and ultimately we are going to get down to the reality, through mindfulness or contemplation, that there is no person or being, that this is just this, that is just that. Ultimate realities, the chariot, like you said. But to me it seems we can do this with idea of self to get to the point where self-view is eliminated. (This does work, with the contemplations outlined in the (Maha-)Satipatthana sutta, that we still go through the four stages of enlightenment, no matter which contemplation(s) we choose?) The driver factor of the chariot combined with the rope factor of the chariot driving the entire thing and instituting this practise, whihc, I guess may well involve a lot of components coming up that are dependent on causes and conditions. Nonetheless, I am unable to let go of my vision of a person practising these all because I have felt gratitude for the Buddha who I know existed many years ago, giving the teachings, that result in enlightenment, and felt, while practising, that I could acheive enlightenment when I eventually 'get it together' and keep practising. > Satipatthana Sutta sub-cmy: > > " `Necessary in all Circumstances' = Everywhere in the state of becoming, > in every sluggish and unbalanced state of mind, it is desirable…….Here, > contemplation takes place by means of wisdom that is assisted by > mindfulness." > …. I can tell you that I have felt mindfulness come up and encompass large parts of my body sitting in bed doing breathing meditations, and I have been able to walk down the streets and be increase my mindfulness to a reasonably desirable degree. If you were to tell me sati is dependent on this and that, and taht what I state is impossible, I would disagree, and I would even say we can actively cultivate sati through meditation, as I learned through Bhante Henepola Gunaratana's best-selling meditation manual "Mindfulness In Plain English" and now even come to think of it, two other books I have made use of, Thich Nhat Hanh's "The Miracle of Mindfulness" and Matthew Flickstein's "Swallowing the River Ganges." The mindful awareness seems not to last whole days from these latter methods but it is very strong, and it seems to encompass a good deal of not just 'myself,' but of other things in the room-- just the existence of awareness. Strange, huh? But it happened. > S:> > the time to be aware of anger. If it is hardness being experienced > > as one > > > types, it's not the time to be aware of feeling or attachment. > > > A:> Right, but if I'm walking down the streets and there's my entire body > > made up of the four elements, I can try to be mindful of as much of > > those four elements as possible, right? The different organs, the > > interaction of material form with the outside world? The many > > different types of bodily feeling that occur so close together in time > > that it's almost all at once? > …. > S: This is thinking about concepts of elements, organs and so on. Most > precious at such times is awareness of thinking – another conditioned > dhamma (cittanupassana). The ideas or concepts cannot be known, but the > thinking can. Thinking sure can be known. But can't we also make use of that great power of thinking to plan out how we are going to know even further realities beyond thinking? I think so. This is what I'm saying here, please reconsider the text. > …. > > Ehh I would hesitate to lose my mindfulness down to one or two nama or > > rupa (in the conventional sense) when coming back indoors for study or > > formal practise or work. > …. > S: Everything is lost at every moment. Mindfulness can only arise for an > instant and then gone. Don't cling to it or expect it or try to make it > last!! As we're comparing the way we both see practice, I'd say that I see > such clinging to mindfulness that has arisen or may arise in the future as > being a very big impediment to such practice. > How? It's the Four Foundations of Mindfulness > Keep posting your reflections (no need for apologies if any `mischief' > slips in – we're all pretty understanding here of mixed mental states;-)). > > In addition to the other book suggestions, it would be helpful if you > could purchase or download and bind copies of `Cetasikas' and Nina's > `ADL'.They are really very helpful reference texts to have handy. Also her > `Conditions' and `Rupas' (not published). Will-do. This is an area I want to make quick progress in, but my enthusiasm has to be toned down a degree to make sure I can understand what I'm going through. Books & meditation, some of each each day I can. > > My other suggestion would be to listen to the audio recordings of our > discussions with A.Sujin recently in India and let me know how you find > them. Scroll to the bottom of this page: > http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/ > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s I support Phil's concern when you use the other name tag and I think > it's better avoided, but of course let us know anytime you're in trouble > and we can help. > ======= I don't think I've used another username on this Y! Group at all. If there is some option that I can change to display only my other nick, thats fine. It was just how some people on and IRC chan I frequent greeted me and so I used it a couple days later to sign up for here. peace be, a.l. 40519 From: Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 3:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The All & Nibbana Hi Howard, Are you saying you deduce there is an eye because there is eye consciousness? Here is something to compare your phenomenologicalness to: http://www.geocities.com/brianperkins77/165douglasharding.htm Larry ---------------------------- H: "I understand 'eye' in a non-organic and non-material-substance sense. (I don't even like the sound of "material substance"! ;-) I understand 'eye' to refer to the active physical capacity to see. Under certain circumstances such as those we conventionally describe as "being blinded" or "going blind" or "having one's eye poked out" or "suffering visual nerve damage", conditions are such that there is not the physical capacity to see - for the moment, or for a long time. Also, I would also say that when one is hearing, for example, the eye is not present - that is, the physical capacity to see is unarisen." 40520 From: Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 10:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The All & Nibbana Hi again, Larry - In a message dated 1/3/05 4:48:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > I understand 'eye' in a non-organic and non-material-substance sense. > (I don't even like the sound of "material substance"! ;-) I understand 'eye' > > to refer to the active physical capacity to see. Under certain circumstances > > such as those we conventionally describe as "being blinded" or "going blind" > or > "having one's eye poked out" or "suffering visual nerve damage", conditions > are such that there is not the physical capacity to see - for the moment, or > for > a long time. Also, I would also say that when one is hearing, for example, > the eye is not present - that is, the physical capacity to see is unarisen. > > ======================== I have given a bit more thought to what I wrote (above) about "eye" and also to the matter of "life force". What I said about "eye" being the (active) physical capacity to see still sits fine with me, but I must say that I am more inclined to think of that as concept than dhamma. I believe that when one uses the term 'eye' or one speaks of the "physical capacity to see", one is just using a name for a host of (typically unspecified) actual conditions, physical for the most part, that are requisite for seeing to occur. I do not think that "eye" is a paramattha dhamma. (Yes, I know that this is contrary to the Abhidhammic perspective.) And I think that "life force" is much the same sort of thing. There are a host of conditions, largely physical, that are required for the continued functioning of the physical organism, and thinking of them as a unity, we use the term 'life force'. What we are dealing with are "capacities", and capacities are merely cognitive abstractions. There is a tendency, I think, for Abhidhamma to take some terms used conventionally by the Buddha in the suttas and to reify them, turning them into paramattha dhammas. (Yes, I know, folks, Abhidhammic blasphemy! May the non-existent God of the Seven Tome Scripture have mercy on my non-existent Buddhist soul!) With paramatthic metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40521 From: Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 10:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The All & Nibbana Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/3/05 6:21:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Are you saying you deduce there is an eye because there is eye > consciousness? > > =================== That is a good and perceptive (no pun intended) question. Please see my follow-up post, and you will see that the question no longer applies. But yes, you are right. If 'eye' were an unobservable phenomenon, a paramattha dhamma that is not observed, then knowing it's existence would have to be a matter of inference. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40522 From: seisen_au Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 3:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Availability of three suttas, bojjhangas. Hi Nina There doesnt seem to be any english translations of the Samyutta on the metta site. The only english translations i could find from the Bojjhangasamyutta are these from accesstoinsight> Himavanta Sutta (SN XLVI.1) http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn46-001.html Gilana Sutta (SN XLVI.14) http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn46-014a.html Gilana Sutta (SN XLVI.16) http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn46-016.html Ahara Sutta (SN XLVI.51) http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn46-014a.html Steve --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: We see here the value of listening and study. > I have the PTS but would like to know whether there is a metta edition on > line. > op 02-01-2005 23:56 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: > > > Samyutta Nikaya, Mahavagga, Bojjhangasamyutta, Fire Sutta > > (Aggisuttam), p.1605 in Bhikkhu Bodhis translation. 40523 From: Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The All & Nibbana Howard: "What we are dealing with are "capacities", and capacities are merely cognitive abstractions. There is a tendency, I think, for Abhidhamma to take some terms used conventionally by the Buddha in the suttas and to reify them, turning them into paramattha dhammas. (Yes, I know, folks, Abhidhammic blasphemy! May the non-existent God of the Seven Tome Scripture have mercy on my non-existent Buddhist soul!)" Hi Howard, In the Sabba Sutta how do we know which words are referring to ultimate realties and which are "merely cognitive abstractions"? Larry 40524 From: Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 1:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The All & Nibbana Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/3/05 8:11:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > In the Sabba Sutta how do we know which words are referring to ultimate > realties and which are "merely cognitive abstractions"? > > Larry > ======================= I don't know. I guess we just have to take our best shot! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40525 From: Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 7:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The All & Nibbana Hi Howard, This gave me a good laugh but I can't let you off that easily (if you're game). First, maybe we should clarify the foundation. What difference does it make? When you say the eye isn't a paramattha dhamma does that mean it isn't to be abandoned or that it isn't included in the "all"? Is it an object of satipatthana? My answer to these questions is that we have to admit concept and reason into the path. Larry ----------------------------- L: In the Sabba Sutta how do we know which words are referring to ultimate realties and which are "merely cognitive abstractions"? ======================= H: I don't know. I guess we just have to take our best shot! ;-)) 40526 From: Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 3:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The All & Nibbana Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/3/05 10:41:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > This gave me a good laugh but I can't let you off that easily (if you're > game). First, maybe we should clarify the foundation. What difference > does it make? When you say the eye isn't a paramattha dhamma does that > mean it isn't to be abandoned or that it isn't included in the "all"? Is > it an object of satipatthana? -------------------------------------------- Howard: This is how I see it, Larry. There are two meanings to 'eye'. One of these is the usual physical eye organ. This is concept. It also, is not what is meant in the expression "eye and forms". The second meaning, the one applicable in "eye and forms" I understand as follows: There are a bunch of physical conditions that are requisite for seeing. The collection of all of these are what is meant by "eye". It is these conditions that, together, constitute the basis, along with visual object, for the arising of visual consciousness; i.e., for seeing. As far as I am concerned, it is that collection of conditions that is what I mean by 'eye', and that means that this sense of 'eye', the physical basis for seeing, is concept and not paramattha dhamma. Each of the conditions subsumed by 'eye', however, is a paramathha dhamma and can be discerned with insight. The "eye" itself cannot, for it is merely concept. (Again, I know this is not the Abidhamma perspective.) As far as whether eye can be abandoned, I would say "Literally no, but figuratively yes." Nothing that is concept-only can literally be abandoned, for there literally are no such things. However, that doesn't stop us from being attached to these nonexistent things, for craving them, or hating them, or chasing after them. And they can be figuratively abandoned by uprooting that attachment, destroying that craving and that aversion, and ceasing that chase. ------------------------------------------ > > My answer to these questions is that we have to admit concept and reason > into the path. > > Larry ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40527 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 8:12pm Subject: Re: Hello : new member Tep: As an electrical engineer you might find it easier to understand the citta vithi (process of consciousness) and the 24 modes of conditionality (paccaya). How do you view the Abhidhamma in the perspective of electrical engineering? Kel: I think Abhidhamma is very precise, systematic and scientific. It's amazing the detailed analysis given there. I admire the concise mind required to come up with it. I can also consolidate modern scientific knowledge to the world as described in Abhidhamma. Everything from kalapas to black holes I can at least find models that make sense for me. The model for citta vithi is pretty clear to me. That's one of the easier parts imho especially if you accept the different categories for each vithi. Grasping the 89/121 consciousness and corresponding cetasikas is pretty hard, trying to remember them by heart is almost impossible for me. So I use a cheat sheet :) I like how it all coming together in paccayas. hetupaccayois pretty basic since it just deals with 3 kusala and 3 akusala roots as causes and everything else is effects except for neutral consciousness and matter caused by that consciousness. Anantarapaccayo relates directly with vithi and how each momentary consciousness is effect of preceeding one and cause for the following one. In short, it very much appeals to my engineering mind :) - kel 40528 From: Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The All & Nibbana In a message dated 1/3/2005 8:30:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Howard: This is how I see it, Larry. There are two meanings to 'eye'. One of these is the usual physical eye organ. This is concept. It also, is not what is meant in the expression "eye and forms". The second meaning, the one applicable in "eye and forms" I understand as follows: There are a bunch of physical conditions that are requisite for seeing. The collection of all of these are what is meant by "eye". It is these conditions that, together, constitute the basis, along with visual object, for the arising of visual consciousness; i.e., for seeing. As far as I am concerned, it is that collection of conditions that is what I mean by 'eye', and that means that this sense of 'eye', the physical basis for seeing, is concept and not paramattha dhamma. Each of the conditions subsumed by 'eye', however, is a paramathha dhamma and can be discerned with insight. The "eye" itself cannot, for it is merely concept. (Again, I know this is not the Abidhamma perspective.) Hi Howard and Larry Howard...if the 'eye' is everything needed for vision to take place, wouldn't that ultimately entail that pretty much everything in the universe (other than concepts perhaps) is 'eye'? TG 40529 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 9:37pm Subject: Some sutta supports ( was Re: Meditation) Dear Nina and Mike - N: > Thank you for your posts to Mike and me. For now, I keep them until later. > Yes, very helpful if you write more. I shall look into the Path of > Discrimination. I wrote about this subject what I understood intellectually, > understanding based on listening, study and considering, but the direct > realization of the truth is quite a different matter. It cannot occur > without the right conditions. T: So far I have not found a sutta support for the 'naamaruupapariccheda', but I have found several suttas that explain the direct realization of the truth that the subba dhamma, being experienced at the present, is 'not mine, not I, not my self ' . Please allow me to show just two sutta excerpts for this time. The first one states that one must contemplate cessation (nirodhanupassana) of the sensing faculties (salayatana) before seeing the truth. The second sutta excerpt shows that in order to "see and know things the way they really are", one would contemplate the inconstant characteristic (aniccanupassana) of the internal and external sense bases. (I) ---- ` Friend, Channa, seeing what in the eye, eye-consciousness and things cognizable by eye-consciousness do you realize, eye, eye- consciousness and things cognizable by eye consciousness are not me, I'm not in them and they are not self? ' `Friend, Sariputta seeing the cessation of the eye, eye-consciousness and things cognizable by eye-consciousness I realized, eye, eye- consciousness and things cognizable by eye consciousness are not me, I'm not in them and they are not self '. MAJJHIMA NIKAAYA III, (5. 2) Channovaadasutta.m 144. Advice to Venerable Channa. http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima- Nikaya/Majjhima3/144-channovada-e.htm (II) ---- "Develop concentration, monks. A concentrated monk discerns things as they actually are present. And what does he discern as it actually is present? "He discerns, as it actually is present, that 'The eye is inconstant'... 'Forms are inconstant'... 'Eye-consciousness is inconstant'... 'Eye-contact is inconstant'... 'Whatever arises in dependence on eye-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is inconstant.' ... ... " Samyutta Nikaya XXXV.99, Samadhi Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-099.html Kindest regards, Tep =============== 40530 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 10:36pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 91 - Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (c) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** When there is citta which sees, there is only that citta, there cannot be any other citta at the same time. At that moment our life is seeing. Seeing does not last, it falls away again. When there is citta which hears there is only that citta and our life is hearing. This citta also falls away and is succeeded by the next one. In this life we see and hear pleasant and unpleasant objects, we have pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. We are full of attachment, aversion and ignorance. Sometimes we perform wholesome deeds: we are generous, we abstain from killing and we develop right understanding. Our life actually consists of one moment of citta which experiences an object. The citta of a moment ago has fallen away completely, but right now another citta has arisen and this falls away again. When we understand that there are conditions for each citta to be succeeded by the next one, we will also understand that the last citta of this life, the dying-consciousness, will be succeeded by a next citta which is the rebirth-consciousness of the next life. So long as we are in the cycle of birth and death there are conditions for citta to arise and to be succeeded by a next one. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40531 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 11:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] MIke- Wise attention Vibhanga. Dear Nina, Thank you for your comments. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: . > N: I shall check again tetx you gave me, thank you. > > I recently heard on MP3: manodvaaravajjanacitta is kiriyacitta but it is > the > means (the way: thaang) for the arising of kusala citta or akusala > citta, > which are conditioned by accumulations. …. S: Yes. Without this citta, no kusala or akusala to follow … > We should consider the whole lot, javanas included as yoniso or ayonoso, > they are so fast anyway. I do not think so much of one cetasika in this > context. This cetasika has the task to drive citta and cetasikas to the > object. I am thinking more of: controller of the javanas. > I was very careful to evade difficulties when I wrote in ADL < There is > 'unwise attention' (ayoniso manasikara) to the object which is > experienced > if akusala cittas arise, and there is 'wise attention' (yoniso > manasikara) > to the object if kusala cittas arise.> <…> …. S: It seems fine there. But I understood in yr other message you were just referring to mind-door adverting consciousness. Perhaps I misunderstood you. When I’ve asked KS about it, she’s stressed ‘it’s just one citta’ when ppl give it or determining consciousness a lot of undue emphasis in terms of determining or controlling javana cittas etc rather than looking at accumulations and nat decisive support condition. Maybe a ‘package’ of cittas and cetasikas as you just suggested. …. > N: Where do i find the Sabbasavasutta, I could then find the Co. Perhaps > also T.A.? and the Dispeller? Where in the Book of Analysis? > Thank you, …. S:Vibhanga 936 on ayoniso manasikara (Bk of Analysis p483)”in impermanence there is permanence” etc T.A. (comy to Abhidammattha Sangaha)p101, Misc Topics Difficult. I didn’t make notes of refs. This is from an old post of mine on the sutta. I think you now have BB’s translation: S:>I'm reading the Sabbasava Sutta (MN2) again as I type. My quotes are from B.Bodhi's translation. (MA refers to the commentary). It discusses in detail how wise attention (yoniso manasikara) attends to what is skilful and understands what is 'unfit for attention'. In other words, comprehends what is kusala and akusala. n36 'MA makes the important point that there is no fixed determination in things themselves as to whether they are fit or unfit for attention. The distinction conisists, rather, in the mode of attention. That mode of attention that is a causal basis for unwholesome states of mind should be avoided, while that mode of attention that is a causal basis for wholesome states should be developed.' In other words it is not the object of citta that matters (however akusala or unpleasant) but the citta and cetasikas (consciousness and mental factors) cognizing it that counts. The four Noble Truths are treated as a 'subject of contemplation and insight'. n41 'MA says that up to the attainment of the path of stream-entry, attention denotes insight (vipassana), but at the moment of the path it denotes path-knowledge. Insight directly apprehends the first two truths, since its objective range is the mental and material phenomena comprised under dukkha and its origin; it can know the latter two truths only inferentially. Path-knowledge makes the truth of cessation its object, apprehending it by penetration as object (arammana). .'..When he attends wisely in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: personality view, doubt, and adherence to rules and observances. These are called the taints that should be abandoned by seeing.' (n35 'the word 'seeing' (dassana) here refers to the first of the 4 supramundane paths (sotapattimagga) so designated because it offers the first glimpse of Nibbana.'< .... S: As I paste this is, I’m reminded that here it says “attention denotes insight (vipassana), but at the moment of the path it denotes path-knowledge”. Another deep topic and clearly the meaning of manasikara (attention) depends on contexts which have to be considered carefully as you’ve stressed. Metta, Sarah ===== 40532 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 3, 2005 11:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L > > >…but it appears to me that since > > > citta and cetasika are two of the fundamental units described in > > > Abhidharma, the contemplation on consciousness most especially would > > > benefit from a thorough knowledges of consciousness and its associated > > > states. And in this case knowing the exact factor of energy that is > > > described in ACM o A seems better to me than knowing "I need to > > > cultivate energy" (although this happens to be contemplations on > > > dhammas, the same principle would apply to consciousness and the > > > nature of all its associated states). > > …. > > S: Yes, good points. By consciousness under cittanupassana is meant the > > citta and accompanying cetasikas. These also are all included in > > dhammanupassana, for example under the khandhas (aggregates). Viriya > > (energy) accompanies almost all of those cittas (not seeing > consciousness, > > hearing etc and one or two more. So it is included with > consciousness and > > dhammas. The same as you say for other associated states. It helps a lot > > to understand viriya as a mental state that is conditioned to arise with > > almost every citta regardless of whether one is flat on one's back or > > jumping up and down, reading a Dhamma text or watching TV. No self > > involved. > > …. > > Well it's just more precise. What I'm looking to do here is have an > understanding not only of what is going on in terms of ultimate > realities, but knowing what needs to be done. Like I said, energy is > one of the seven factors of enlightenment, now if I am outside doing a > mindful walk, and I notice energy in my breathing, I am not sure > whether this energy has to be maintained, increased, or what have you, > in pursuit of the supramundane paths. Maybe it does, or maybe it is > not the time and place for that factor to be in. > > Ultimately, going beyond the concept 'energy' and knowing the true > nature of what is referenced by that word, seems valuable to me in my > pursuit of enlightenment. The same applies for all the other cittas > and cetasikas, and probably for matter as well, but I am still only > re-reading chapter 1 in CMA, so I am not there yet. Kel: As far as I've been taught, you want to move away from concepts to reach paramattha. So to analyze each mental state or consciousness you're experiencing and attempting to label would be futile. Not only is your awareness lagging behind the "present moment" but you end up adding another layer of concepts. viriya is sometime translate as effort too or some claim more accurately as "sustained or continous effort". You definitely don't want to over-exert yourself and run out of steam. At the same time, you don't want sloth and torpor to take over by making you feel sluggish. The practice to learn the right amount of effort or energy to apply at a particular situation. Depending on your state I would argue the amount is different. It's the balancing of these mental factors you want to practice. When they're exactly balanced and strong enough to be of indriya/bala quality then it'll approach sambojjhanga. Anicca, dukkha, anatta are the signs of all phenomenon. Viriya like other factors are merely a mean to an end, vehicles. You want to reach an object that is beyond the entire field of mind and matter as we know it. S: > > Impossible, as panna (wisdom) can only arise with javana > > cittas rooted in wisdom. So there's never going to be a mindfulness of > > `all things going on in the body at once', but I'll be glad to see any > > reference. Kel: Body-contact is one consciousness and that covers the whole body. Though that doesn't include eyes, ears, tongue and nose based consciousness. Also not the mind-object based consciousness of course. > Well, let's try to sort these out. You are saying "one citta can > arise at a time." How can we reconcile this with walks that I have > taken being mindful of the breath, feelings, and objects of a few > sense doors almost concurrently, to the extent that /numerous/ devas > appeared overhead streaming above me (more about this in a min.) Kel: Simply your awareness (sati) and concentration (samadhi) are lagging behind to give the illusion of continuity and simultaneity. Once you obtain a better sati and a mind that stays on one object, you'll find other sense-doors almost "shut down". This is why some texts call walking meditation samadhi the best out of four postures because it is the hardest one due to amount of stimulus to deal with. > Would you say that I was just being aware of one bit of consciousness > for its split-second duration and then move on to another, to produce > the illusion of continuity? Kel: consciousness is said to happen "trillion times in a flash of lightning or blink of an eye". Your mind was ping-ponging among objects. > mindful of numerous feelings of pleasure, pain, or neut in my body at > different times, and of what I was hearing and seeing at a > split-second rate, again, seemingly like I am mindful of it all at > once. So I know since this /has/ been acheived by me, it again /can/ > be acheived by me, especially if it /needs/ to be acheived by me. Kel: as long as you can identify the sound like a dog barking, movement of your arms or the sensation is pleasure or pain or neutral, these are still mere concepts. You need to reach to the subtle realities where everything starts getting blurred and hard to describe. You are merely aware. > our approach: I am trying to be mindful of every reality as it > presents itself to me to the extent of knowing every possible nama or > rupa that can be known at a given time, even so it looks like, I am > walking, knowing all my bodily feelings, or knowing all the four > elements in my mind-body complex. And I would practise each of the > foundations for some time, dependent on how results come about. Kel: This is the way to practice. One example is to meditate like a spider, you feel and note everything that gets caught in the web while remaining in the center. However, as you get better the process necessarily slows down and you can pick out individual events separately. This takes time and a lot of practice. > Abhidhamma approach seems to to be mindful of only a bit here and a > bit there-- nothing like the uninterrupted mindfulness that I have as > the ideal of my practise. Kel: Abhidhamma is a description of how the mental process actually happen. It's very rare indeed for individual meditator to see the process as it actually happens. In fact some say impossible except for Buddha and Sariputta. Regardless, the practice is to make your mindfulness/concentration to be as continous as possible because the more vithi you can string together, the faster your path will be. > I just felt such gratitude for both the Buddha and these beings and Kel: I would just watch out for 10 imperfections of insight. > Where is body-consciousness located? If I feel the wind on my body, > that is vedana, but I don't know where that cetasika is physically > located - I mean it is an absolute reality, right? It's got to be > somewhere either in my leg, or more likely in my head making it feel > like it's in my leg. I am unable to see the consciousness of it. Kel: That's the whole point of the mind, you can't really "see" the 4 mind khandas. You can only experience them, infer them and penetrate them eventually to see it's all just phenomena. This is one reason vedanaupassana is popular and doable for majority of people. The body is there and easy to observe. And it's easy to reach the subtler depths by following vedana. > Nonetheless, I am unable to let go of my vision of a person practising > these all because I have felt gratitude for the Buddha who I know > existed many years ago, giving the teachings, that result in > enlightenment, and felt, while practising, that I could acheive > enlightenment when I eventually 'get it together' and keep Kel: some use example of a river. You can give it a name but ask if it's exactly the same from one moment to another. The water that keeps flowing are not the same droplets. right-view says it is not the same yet not another, merely a stream of consciousness. > > S: This is thinking about concepts of elements, organs and so on. Most > > precious at such times is awareness of thinking – another conditioned > > dhamma (cittanupassana). The ideas or concepts cannot be known, but the > > thinking can. > > Thinking sure can be known. But can't we also make use of that great > power of thinking to plan out how we are going to know even further > realities beyond thinking? I think so. This is what I'm saying > here, please reconsider the text. Kel: Thinking is a very gross type of consciousness. You definitely need to move to subtler level. > > S: Everything is lost at every moment. Mindfulness can only arise for an > > instant and then gone. Don't cling to it or expect it or try to make it > > last!! As we're comparing the way we both see practice, I'd say that > I see > > such clinging to mindfulness that has arisen or may arise in the > future as > > being a very big impediment to such practice. > > > > How? It's the Four Foundations of Mindfulness Kel: true test of attachment is how you react when you preceive yourself losing or lessening in sati. Are you agitated or accept it as is. Do your best to increase it with full equaminity or not? - kel 40533 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 0:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The All & Nibbana Hi Larry, Howard, TG (Tep & All). --- Larry wrote: >I'm a little uneasy about including > nibbana in the ayatanas. For one thing it seems a little awkward to > abandon it as in the Abandonment Sutta. … S: As the commentary note to the Sabba Sutta indicated, sometimes nibbana is included in the ‘All’ and sometimes not. So we have to keep this in mind when reading the suttas in Salayatanasamyutta. In SN35:24 (2) Abandonment, nibbana is not included as I read it in ‘sabbappahaanaaya’, (the abandoning of all).As Nina said, we always have to look at the context. These suttas are interesting because they do touch on Tep’s question about the stages of insight in the suttas. In the next one (Abandonment 2), we read about ‘abandoning all through direct knowledge and full understanding.’ (sabba.m abhi~n~aa pari~n~aa pahaanaaya). This is a reference to the third pari~n~naa (full understanding), (pahaanapari~n~naa) when the defilements are abandoned by the path. The two earlier par~n~naas are the full understanding of the known (~naatapari~n~naa) and full understanding by scrutinization (tira.napari~n~naa). [BB gives more details on these on p354, note 36 in vol 1 of SN. Also see under ‘pari~n~naa’ in Nyantiloka’s dictionary.] Also, Larry, see Vism XX 89 (a bit ahead I know!!) on the 18 Prinicpal Insights: "89: Having thus become familiar with the material and immaterial meditation subjects, and so having penetrated here already a part of those eighteen principal insights which are later to be attained in all their aspects by means of full-understanding as abandoning starting with contemplation of dissolution, he consequently abandons things opposed [to what he has already penetrated]. ‘Eighteen principal insights’ is a term for understanding that consists in the kinds of insight beginning with contemplation of impermanence…” ***** Much more detail follows, but I just wish to indicate here (as Nina also did in a recent message) that the detail (such as here regarding the stages of insight) is understood in the suttas if one really understands words such as ‘pahaana’ or ‘pari~n~naa’. For those who have BB’s full translation of the Mulapariyaya Sutta and commentaries, on p36 there is a breakdown of the fivefold abandoning by factor substitution (taa’ngapahaana), by suppression (vikkhambhana-p), by eradication (samuccheda-p), by subsiding (pa.tipassaddhi-p), and by escape (nissara.na-p). It goes into lots of good detail such as how ‘the personality view is abandoned by the defining of mentality-materiality (nama-rupa) etc. for factor substitution, by the development of samatha for suppression, by eradicating defilements following the Path for theeradication, by fruition consciousness for the subsiding and finally the last, escape, refers to ‘Nibbana, in which all that is conditioned is abandoned by the escape …’. So in our SN sutta, ‘all’ refers to ‘all that is conditioned’ as I read it. In the same translation of the Mulapariyaya Sutta and commentaries, p47 there is also more about the 3 pari~n~naa mentioned above, relating these to the sutta. Again, full understanding by abandoning is the abandoning of desire and lust for the elements (starting with earth element in the sutta) after developing full understanding of the known and of scrutinization. Again relating these to the stages of insight, it says “…the defining of mentality-materiality (naamaruupa vavatthaana) is the full understanding of the known; from insight-comprehension of the groups (kalaapasammasana) as far as conformity knowledge (anuloma) is the full understanding of scrutinization; and the knowledge of the ariyan path is the full understanding by abandoning.” So, Tep, all the stages of insight are included in the pari~n~naa and it is the last one (the knowledge of the ariyan path) which is being referred to in the SN suttas on ‘Abandoning’. Of course, first there has to be the ‘full understanding of the known’ by ‘the defining of mentality-materiality’ (nama-rupa pariccheda ~nana) or as it puts it another way in the comy to the Mulapariyaya Sutta” “Therein, what is the full understanding of the known? He fully understands the earth element thus: ‘this is the internal earth element, this the external. This is its characteristic, this its function, manifestation, and proximate cause.’ This is full understanding of the known.” In other words, pathavi (earth element or solidity with the characteristic of hardness/softness) has to be clearly understood when it is experienced, an element, a rupa, no self at all, coniditioned by kamma, citta, nutriment or temperature (only the latter in the case of external rupas of course) and not in anyone’s control. Other namas and rupas given as examples in the ‘Abandoning’ suttas also have to be known when they appear repeatedly for what they are so that full understanding can be developed, step by step. Apologies for a lot of technical detail here. Comments welcome of course! Metta, Sarah ======= 40534 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello : new member Hi Kelvin, Many thanks indeed for giving your intro - we really appreciate it when new members do this a lot;-).i'm glad to see that Tep and maybe others have also welcomed you already and you're right into the discussions here. --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > I found this group as I was browsing for information about > paramis. .... Two excellent booklets are Nina's own shorter one of the 'Perfections' and her translation of Sujin Boriharnwanaket's longer one which she posted here in segments for discussion before. You should find them both on 'Zolag' and Nina, I and others would be very glad of any further input. .... >I was born and raised in Burma. My family moved to > America back in 91. Currently, I'm a graduate student at UC > Berkeley in Electrical Engineering. > > I grew up with Theravada teachings so I do have some common > knowledge. Unfortunately I didn't start meditating seriously until > two summers ago despite my childhood exposure. For the past year, I > also have been taking introductory Abhidhamma course at a Burmese > monastery. I noticed this group is very technical and precise in > the materials posted. Just hoping to learn and trade information > from the discussions here. .... S: A group of us went with A.Sujin to Burma last year - wonderful, esp. Pagan. Greatly looking forward to 'trading information. Yes, I think it's better to study and discuss Abhidhamma together than on one's own;-). Oops, my battery is about to go, so a quick sign off. Speak later, Metta, Sarah ======= 40535 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] groups.yahoo.com/group/life-atmosphere/message/656 Dear Ai, Welcome to DSG! I was confused by the context of your post, but you clearly have a keen interest in the Pali canon teachings. Please let us know where you live and anything else about your background. --- Ai Le wrote: > 1. parable of the saw / metta > 2. anatta > 3. four aryan truths (also the 'four noble truths') [this is Ill, > Arising of Ill, Cessation of Ill, and the path leading to the cessation > of Ill] > 4. anicca, dukkha, anatta > 5. somethings I get from the 'Happy' chapter of the 'Dhammapada' > 6. Majjhima Nikaya 19 > > The difference between my # 2 listing and my # 4 listing is that > 'anatta' ("not-self") "is a kind of view that goes with metta ( parable > of the saw/metta are the # 1 listing, first thing in my mind). I think > in the past it went like this or something like this: when I completed > my parable of the saw meditation (# 1 listing), I would then let go > further (?) with anatta". .... S: Maybe you can elaborate on this before I comment. .... > > The # 4 listing -- anicca, dukkha, anatta -- was what was called the > 'paramita' ('paramita' the term for one of the ten 'perfections' of a > bodhisattva?) of 'wisdom' (panna'?), in the book 'The Buddha and His > Teachings' or titled something like that, by Narada (Maha Thera? Maha > Thera = Great Elder?). > > Here's something like my way or my way on "anicca, dukkha, anatta": what > is impermanent (anicca), that is ill (dukkha); what is ill, that is > not-self (anatta); what is not-self, one should regard as 'this is not > mine, this am not I, this is not my self'. .... S: Good! ... > > Majjhima Nikaya 19 (# 6 listing) is, ACCORDING TO ME, the teaching on > the three right thoughts of renunciation, non-ill will, and (right) > thoughts imbued with harmlessness, as opposed to the (three) thoughts of > sense desires, ill will, and thoughts imbued with harmfulness. ... S: Yes. In your list, you really include the heart of the Teachings. I hope you'll participate in threads here. You may also find it helpful to look at some of the useful posts from the archives on particular topics such as 'Abhidhamma- beginners' etc: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Let us know if you have any further questions or comments. Metta, Sarah p.s if your previous post was on another list, pls assume we don't know what you are referring to! Also, pls make it clear whom you are addressing here, even if it's 'Everyone'. ========================================= 40536 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 3:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (212), submoments Dear Nina, Thanks for your kind words. We can here see how intricate and subtle The Dhamma is. There are many who are materialists and all their thoughts are based in a way or another on physical matters like 'stimulation of seeing area in the brain cause seeing and so on' which actually is not. But The Buddha discovered all these without any physical instruments like microscopes, alpha rays, beta rays, gamma rays, X-rays etc. 3 submoments are yes 1.uppaada[uppada] khana, 2.tithii[tithi] khana, and 3.bhanga khana. This is not a product of logical thinking but what The Buddha penetrated and discovered and preached. A simile for arising of these 3 anukhana or submoments is passing electrical current through a tungsten wire. But still this is also a physical simile does not represent fully on mind matter. But at least it may help us understand. When the current passes there comes out light. That light can be assumed as 'tithii' anukhana. There is a weak light in weak red colour just before and just after that bright light. Before is uppaada anukhana and after is bhanga anukhana. These 2 anukhanas of rupa are so weak and that they cannot serve as object[light]. Thanks again for your kind words and comment. With much respect, Htoo Naing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > Thank you. I like your similes. > man running is also in the Tiika, and then you made it clear with the > warning shots, etc. I like it. > When the reader hears about submoments he may have questions why. I could > add something from my Thai translation to help here. > moments of citta. Rúpa does not fall away as quickly as citta. Citta can be > subdivided into three infinitesimal moments, the moment of its arising, > uppåda khaùa, the moment of its presence, tiììhi khaùa, and the moment of > its falling away, bhanga khaùa. When we take this subdivision into account, > rúpa lasts as long as three times seventeen, that is, fiftyone moments of > citta.> > Nina. > op 31-12-2004 15:49 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: 40537 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 4:06am Subject: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 127 and Tiika --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > thank you very much. I sent the correction. > How can I correct? Should I repost the whole? > Nina > op 31-12-2004 12:40 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > > In your opening of this mail the numbers are right. But later, you > > said 'there are fiftytwo types left and these are accompanied by > > indifferent feeling'. There are 55 upekkha cittas out of 121 total > > cittas. 62 are somanassa cittas, 1 sukha citta, 1 dukkha citta, 2 > > domanassa cittas (121 - 66 = 55 cittas not 52 cittas). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, The moderators can help you. Please repost the whole after correction and then the moderators can delete the old one. I myself is not flawless. But we all need to be careful when we write a lot. There are always typo errors or transcription errors in texts. But when I read them I always reflect the contents and at the same time I always am respectful to those writers. Because any ill thoughts related to text-writers have bad effect. An example is 'ayam' and 'ajam'. I do not know any word 'ajam' in Pali. Then when I saw the text with 'ajam' I will consider it as 'ayam'. Again 'j' and 'y' are very close and quite similar in hand-written form. Sometimes a couple of words are dropped out. At that time I myself abridge to get the meaning without any ill-will on writers. With much respect, Htoo Naing 40538 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 4:18am Subject: Dhamma Thread (214) Dear Dhamma Friends, As soon as votthapana citta or determining consciousness passes away next arises the 1st javana citta or mental impulsive consciousness. When votthapana citta is a kiriya citta and not bearing any kamma, javana cittas when they are not kiriya cittas do bear good or bad kamma as soon as they arise. The commender of the army has decided to share the food inside of the truck to all soldiers [including officials grade]. So the whole army have food and each member of the whole army now realizes fully what the food is like and they all realize now. But as there are many different personalities even among soldiers let alone officials the understanding, the feeling, the responses will not be the same. Some would say 'awful food'. Some would say 'not too bad' and some would say 'just good' and some 'excellent' and so on. There are many different kinds of javana cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40539 From: Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The All & Nibbana Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/4/05 12:08:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard and Larry > > Howard...if the 'eye' is everything needed for vision to take place, > wouldn't > that ultimately entail that pretty much everything in the universe (other > than concepts perhaps) is 'eye'? > > TG > ======================= Well, that is not what is meant, I believe. I believe the concept of "eye" is more restrictive than that, but it is a somewhat fuzzy concept- not precisely delimited. But, in fact, the point you raise can probably be truly said of all things. There are no two things that are not related, at least indirectly. Reality "as a whole" is a net of conditions such that each is related to each other and to the whole, and the whole is dependent upon each of its of its elements. The attempt at separating out any part or element, or the whole, as an independent entity is, in my opinion, exactly what the error of reification is. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40540 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 7:09am Subject: Re: Hello : new member Hi, Kel - > > Kel: > I think Abhidhamma is very precise, systematic and scientific. It's > amazing the detailed analysis given there. I admire the concise > mind required to come up with it. I can also consolidate modern > scientific knowledge to the world as described in Abhidhamma. > Everything from kalapas to black holes I can at least find models > that make sense for me. > I am glad to read your reply which shows your familiarity with the fundamentals of the Abhidhamma. I am indeed interested in your intellectual perspective and engineering approach to the Dhamma, and look forward to reading more from you. Thank you very much. Kind regards, Tep =========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > 40541 From: shakti Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 8:03am Subject: Cancelled trip to California and Montana Dear Friends, I spoke with Jack in California. Khun Sujin's trip to California and Montana has been cancelled. Jack has had numerous family medical situations, that make it difficult for him to organize the trip at this time. We hope that when his situation improves we can organize another trip. We will advise dsg at that time. With metta, Shakti 40542 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 9:01am Subject: Dhamma Thread (215) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 7 successive javana cittas in a vithi vara[ a series of cittas in knowing process of object]. Among them the 1st javana citta is the weakest. This is because that citta is the first in the whole series of 7 javana cittas and it is the first to taste what the object is like. Votthapana citta or determining consciousness just decides how to feel, how to appreciate, how to apperceive and he himself does not do the job of javana. So it is just kiriya citta or functional consciousness or inoperational consciousness. 2nd javana citta is stronger than the 1st javana citta. Because this 2nd javana citta has received what the object is like through the 1st javana citta. The message is passed on to following javana cittas. This is repeatition conditioning of cittas and this kind of condition is only possible to interact between nama dhamma and nama dhamma. 1st javana citta is nama dhamma and 2nd javana citta is nama dhamma and so do other following javana cittas. Again the 7th javana citta is weaker than its preceeding javana cittas even though it is stronger than the 1st javana citta. This is because it is just going to disappearing. The object has to finish or if there is 2 more moments for rupa object to exist then 2 tadarammana cittas have to arise to retain the object. If there is only one extra moment to exist for rupa object no tadarammana can arise and instead bhavanga cittas have to follow these 7 javana cittas. qThis is the rule of citta or citta niyama that tadarammana cittas always arise 2 successive moments. If there is only one momnent then tadarammana citta cannot arise. The 7th javana citta is leading to bhavanga cittas who are not able to take the current object or 2 tadarammana cittas who are just vipaka cittas and do not have any kammic force because of their arising. So it seems like that javana cittas are running man and the 1st step is very weak in terms of speed and the second weakest is the 7th javana citta who is just going to passing away. The middle 5 javana cittas are so strong that the kamma that arises because of these middle cittas is able to give rise to effect or result for the whole samsara as long as satta concerned is in the samsara. This effect starts from the third life from this life where kamma is generated. This current life is the first life, next life is the second life and the life after that is third life. So strong are those 5 middle javana cittas that they do carry the potentials or kamma along with each and every arising citta. The first javana citta is so weak that its effect may be in the just first life and the second weakest 7th javana citta may give rise to its effect in the 2nd life or next life only and they do not bring along for the whole samsara like the middle 5 javana cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40543 From: Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The All & Nibbana Hi Howard In a message dated 1/4/2005 6:33:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Well, that is not what is meant, I believe. I believe the concept of "eye" is more restrictive than that, but it is a somewhat fuzzy concept- not precisely delimited. But, in fact, the point you raise can probably be truly said of all things. TG: Yes There are no two things that are not related, at least indirectly. Reality "as a whole" is a net of conditions such that each is related to each other and to the whole, and the whole is dependent upon each of its of its elements. The attempt at separating out any part or element, or the whole, as an independent entity is, in my opinion, exactly what the error of reification is. TG: Yes, and the concept of "whole" shares the problem too. There is a Sutta where the Buddha is asked 'straight out' -- if feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness are actually separate states or, are they not separatable states? And if the latter, does the Buddha separate them merely to analyse them? The Buddha answers that they cannot in reality be considered separate states. He only separates them for purposes of analysis. (This creates a problem for Abhidhamma in my view as seeing them as separate ultimate realities.) At any rate, with this in mind, I think the analysis of "elements" can be done realizing that the purpose is not to be technically perfect...but rather...the purpose is merely to aid in seeing things as conditioned, impermanent, suffering, and not-self...for the greater purpose of eliminating attachments and suffering. It is not "reality" the Buddha is interested in teaching...its the Path to escaping suffering he is interested in teaching. And although it may be as "real" a teaching as it gets, its just not the point to get 'hung up' on realities. (Not that this necessarily applies to your post.) The goal in having things expressed as accurately as possible would be to convense the mind that -- "yes, this is the way it is, things are conditioned, impermanent, suffering, not-self." If they are not expressed in a convensing fashion, people would discount it and not pursue it. States ultimately don't have separate existence. And although the Buddha was only asked about Nama in the Sutta mentioned above, I suspect 'the un-separatable-ness' would apply to nama and rupa as well. Mental models are very useful and necessary things though, and each of us needs to models things in our minds, to the best of our ability, so that the impact of the Buddha's teaching has the greatest effect on us. Once we achieve the goal, the model becomes as useless and a snakes shed skin. With metta, Howard TG 40544 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Hi Larry, op 03-01-2005 22:11 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Sarah and Howard, I was > arguing that no rupa is truly an object of consciousness in the sense > of actually arising in the mind door. However, that is my own > peculiarity and not abhidhamma. N: When I first came to Kh Sujin I had doubts about sense-door processes. She answered: how can the mind-door get the rupa if it is not first known in a sense-door process? Seeing arises in a sense-door process. Visible object is known by seeing, it is seen. Afterwards it is known by cittas arising in a mind-door process. Lodewijk thinks that there may be confusion about mind and mind-door because of the English translations. Is there anything not cleared up here? L: I think it could be argued that it is impossible to know rupa except as a concept. The sensation of hardness is body consciousness, not rupa. Rupa isn't an experience. > At least that's how I understand the nama/rupa distinction. N: This is correct. Only the first: it is impossible to know rupa except as a concept. But rupa is not a concept, rupa is rupa. I do not see the problem here. These points are important to clear up, otherwise they obstruct the understanding which is the groundwork for the development of insight. Nina. 40545 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 127 and Tiika Dear Htoo, do not worry, corrections are useful. After all, it is about Dhamma and writing about Dhamma is always a great responsibility. One can't be careful enough. Nina. op 04-01-2005 13:06 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > There are always typo errors or transcription errors in texts. But > when I read them I always reflect the contents and at the same time I > always am respectful to those writers. 40546 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Availability of three suttas, bojjhangas. Hi Steve, thank you for the trouble. It is regrettable, but I shall just type what I want to quote. Nina. op 04-01-2005 00:34 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: > There doesnt seem to be any english translations of the > Samyutta on the metta site. The only english translations i could > find from the Bojjhangasamyutta are these from accesstoinsight> 40547 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Wise attention Dear Sarah, Thank you for your observations. I went meanwhile to a few texts which I shall add here. op 04-01-2005 08:34 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: When I’ve asked KS about it, she’s stressed it’s just one citta’ > ppl give it or determining consciousness a lot of undue emphasis in > terms of determining or controlling javana cittas etc rather than looking > at accumulations and at decisive support condition. Maybe a package’ of > cittas and cetasikas as you just suggested. N: Right. Undue emphasis. I shall now also transcribe the MP3, where this is dealt with. First Vis. XIV, 152: here is defined manasikaara cetasika, the controller of the object (it yokes the accompanying dhammas to the object) and it also refers to the two cittas which are manasikaara: the sense-door adverting citta (called here controller of sense-door process) and the mind-door adverting citta, controller of the javanas. The word controller is misleading. The word pa.tipaadaka is used. pa.tipaada is the way and the suffix -ka makes it an adjective (bahubbiihi compound). I find that often it is doing something. It paves the way, a way-paver. The Tiika: this deals first with the two cittas and then states as to the cetasika: this is another manasikaara included in sankhaarakkhandha. The others are viññaa.nakkhanda. Of course, the cetasika attention when it accompanies kusala citta is also kusala and when it accompanies akusala citta it is also akusala. But it does not have the function of paving the way for kusala javana cittas or akusala javana cittas. I looked at some other texts, mostly referring to suttas. In the suttas kusala cittas and akusala cittas are given as wise and unwise attention, but no detail can be expected such as the mind-door adverting-consciousness. Expositor, p. 84: right attention is given as the proximate cause for kusala citta. You quoted Exp. p. 385, about kiriyacitta in general: no kusala hetus or akusala hetus of wise and unwise attention: I see this more as just explaining further that this citta is neither kusala nor akusala. Transcript of Pakinnaka 2, no 110 and 111. In Huahin. Acharn Sompon: Before kusala citta arises there is yoniso manasikaara, it is called javana pa.tipaada manasikaara. It is hetu paccaya for the arising of kusala. If kusala arises there must be yoniso. Yoniso is the beginning, before kusala arises. It is only one citta. Also Kh Sujin explains: Kusala citta itself is yoniso, akusala citta is ayoniso. Each citta is anantara paccaya for the next one, it occurs vey fast. Kusala citta and akusala citta arise because of natural strong dependence condition. N: At that moment it has happened before we realize it, we cannot prevent cittas from arising. Peope become confused because the manasikaara that is the mind-door adverting citta is kiriyacitta. As I see it: yoniso and ayoniso manasikara and the following javana cittas are one big sweep. Nina. 40548 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 11:45am Subject: Re: Cancelled trip to California and Montana Hello Shakti, Thank you for letting us know. I hope Jack's family overcome any illnesses and once again grow healthy and strong. Disappointing about the trip though ... I have been reading a little ... had my mind set on tasting a huckleberry and canoeing :)... another time maybe. metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > I spoke with Jack in California. Khun Sujin's trip to California and Montana has been cancelled. Jack has had numerous family medical situations, that make it difficult for him to organize the trip at this time. We hope that when his situation improves we can organize another trip. We will advise dsg at that time. > > With metta, Shakti > > 40549 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 0:07pm Subject: Doubt and Confidence Hello all, Strange, isn't it ... how enthusiam for the Dhamma wafts and wanes ... ? I've noticed a pattern over the last year or so - great interest, strong enthusiam, confidence, contentment in the practice .. and then, boredom, alienation, doubt, discontent. I'm at the bottom of that cycle at the moment - hope it is a cycle - not sure what to do - other than having patience, and keeping on keeping on .... metta and peace, Christine --- The trouble is that you think you have time--- 40550 From: Tep Sastri Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 0:26pm Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence Hi Chris - Before starting to write this mail, I read your message twice. A question came to my mind about what conditions (paccaya) we must keep throughout each day such that "great interest, strong enthusiam, confidence, contentment in the practice" can be maintained. Then I recalled a sutta I had read long ago. It says that the monk can be steady in the progress toward Nibbana when he keeps a "samadhi nimitta" in the morning, in the evening, and at night. I am not sure what it may mean to most people who don't do meditation. Warmest regards, Tep ======== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello all, > > Strange, isn't it ... how enthusiam for the Dhamma wafts and > wanes ... ? > I've noticed a pattern over the last year or so - great interest, > strong enthusiam, confidence, contentment in the practice .. and > then, boredom, alienation, doubt, discontent. I'm at the bottom of > that cycle at the moment - hope it is a cycle - not sure what to do - > other than having patience, and keeping on keeping on .... > > metta and peace, > Christine > --- The trouble is that you think you have time--- 40551 From: Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Doubt and Confidence Hi, Christine - In a message dated 1/4/05 3:11:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: > Hello all, > > Strange, isn't it ... how enthusiam for the Dhamma wafts and > wanes ... ? > I've noticed a pattern over the last year or so - great interest, > strong enthusiam, confidence, contentment in the practice .. and > then, boredom, alienation, doubt, discontent. I'm at the bottom of > that cycle at the moment - hope it is a cycle - not sure what to do - > other than having patience, and keeping on keeping on .... > > metta and peace, > Christine ==================== Yes, there is an up-down-up-down cycle. The reason, I think, is that for all but arahants (or maybe also anagami) there is attachment to "progress". When our practice, however we view "practice", seems to be "going well", we rejoice and have confidence and enthusiasm, but when it seems to "go badly", we exhibit, as you say, "boredom, alienation, doubt, and discontent." (Of course an ariyan will not have the doubt.) This cycle is a special case, I think, of samsara, our wandering on, buffeted by the waves of tanha and upadana - now raised high on the crest of a wave, and then dashed low to the trough. The solution? Just as you say: "having patience, and keeping on keeping on." With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40552 From: Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 7:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Doubt and Confidence In a message dated 1/4/2005 12:11:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, cforsyth1@b... writes: Hello all, Strange, isn't it ... how enthusiam for the Dhamma wafts and wanes ... ? I've noticed a pattern over the last year or so - great interest, strong enthusiam, confidence, contentment in the practice .. and then, boredom, alienation, doubt, discontent. I'm at the bottom of that cycle at the moment - hope it is a cycle - not sure what to do - other than having patience, and keeping on keeping on .... metta and peace, Christine Hi Christine This is a very normal pattern according to my experience. I've been studying Buddhism since 1981. Sometimes I'll go at it: 2, 3, 4, 5 years in a row very motivated, then I'll drop off for a year or two without much motivation to read. Its been awhile since I've been in a dry period in terms of reflecting on the teachings, but I've been there too. I think sometimes we need to take two steps forward and one step back to progress. When the teachings are taken up again, they will likely be fresh again and new/stronger insights will be developed. And you may wonder -- how could I have wasted all that time not studying? ;-) TG 40553 From: Matthew Miller Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 7:36am Subject: Seeing & Hearing Howard wrote: > Also, I would also say that when one is hearing, for example, > the eye is not present - that is, the physical capacity to see is > unarisen. Studies have demonstrated that the data from the eyes and the ears is often combined to form a 'bound' percept. For example, if a listener is blindfolded it is difficult to locate the exact source of sound waves. If the blindfold is removed the sound can usually be located at the source. You can try this yourself. How does this fit in with the idea that "when one is hearing.. physical capacity to see is unarisen"? Matthew P.S. This is my first post. Hello everybody. 40554 From: Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 9:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing & Hearing Hi, Matthew - In a message dated 1/4/05 4:47:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, bupleurum@y... writes: > Howard wrote: > >Also, I would also say that when one is hearing, for example, > >the eye is not present - that is, the physical capacity to see is > >unarisen. > > Studies have demonstrated that the data from the eyes and the ears is > often combined to form a 'bound' percept. For example, if a listener > is blindfolded it is difficult to locate the exact source of sound > waves. If the blindfold is removed the sound can usually be located > at the source. You can try this yourself. > > How does this fit in with the idea that "when one is hearing.. > physical capacity to see is unarisen"? > > Matthew > P.S. This is my first post. Hello everybody. > > ==================== Welcome to posting Matthew! :-) It sounds to me that what those studies are pointing to is some additional mental processing, what might be called "sankharic fabrication" by some Buddhists, a processing that is itself neither hearing nor seeing. The Buddha said that mind moves very quickly, as compared, presumably, to the objects of consciousness. Abhidhamma in particular points out how consciousness flits from one sense door to another, in a kind of time-share mode, and each conscious flashing at a sense door goes by very rapidly. So I suspect that what is going on in this matter is a flitting amongst eye door, ear door, and mind door, with mind-door operations working on the material presented through eye and ear to "compute" location. But the moments of visual consciousness are moments of auditory unconsciousness, and vice-versa. One aspect of the physical capacity to see (or "eye", for short) is the condition that there be no other sense-door object present. (Of course, that is only 80% physical condition, as it includes that no mind-door object be present and not just other physical objects.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40555 From: Egbert Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 3:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does Hi Jon, Thank you for the gift of your time and effort, I really appreciate it. There are some more comments below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Herman > > I think you see the holy life and the household life as being > antithetical to each other (which I would not argue with), and from this you say that since the holy life is lived for the sake of enlightenment then the household life must be antithetical to that goal. === H > I found it quite useful to see things juxtaposed this way. And yes, juxtaposed this way, the household life is antithetical to Nibbana. There are only two choices (not that there is anyone that chooses). There is the choice for suffering or the choice for Nibbana, there is the choice for illusion or the choice for reality, the choice for self or the choice for not-self. The householders life is essentially a vote for attachment to the meaningless, and a rejection of the real. The householders life is defined in terms of having, not being. And having is defined in terms of attachment. > > In particular, you see social discourse as a real hindrance to the development of the path because of the effect it has of inducing discursive thought, which makes difficult the removal of clinging. ==== H > I could not write down a single thought that I have ever had that wasn't meaningless, except for the thought that they were all meaningless. > > To my reading of the suttas and texts, the message taught by the Buddha is a somewhat different one. He did not extol silence or a life of physical seclusion for their own sake, or as being necessary for the development of the path, or even as being necesarily conducive to the development of the path for all persons. He did of course on numerous occasions (but not to every follower) extol the monks' life, but he did so with the qualification that it was the monks. life that was 'well lived' to which her referred. We need to understand the significance of this qualification which, as I see it, has the effect of putting the monk's life beyond the capability of most people. > > What the Buddha in fact lays down as the necessary conditions for the > development of the path are, in comparison to the ideal of a reclusive > lifestyle spent in meditative contemplation, relatively > mundane-sounding. In numerous suttas, including suttas directed to > audiences that include laypeople, the Buddha talks about knowing the > presently arising dhammas such as seeing consciousness and visible > object and so on through the six senses, or the five khandhas, or the > elements. On many occasions those listening to the discourse became > enlightened then and there or a short time later. === H> Out of interest, did those lay folk who "got it" return to their householders life, and carry on managing their superannuation funds (preparing for the future based on the past) as normal? === We should not ignore > the obvious message this carries for us. > > That message as I see it is that there is the potential for development > of the path at this very moment, regardless of lifestyle or current > situation. It is a matter of understanding at an intellectual level > first the significance of dhammas such as seeing and visible object. ====== H > I think the reality is that the suffering we know is preferred to the freedom we don't want to know. But of course a point will come in the lives of every being, of every status, in which everything that was gained will be lost, everything that was clung to will be washed away. There will be nothing of an intellectual level which will do anyone any good, at that time. And we all know that, intellectually. If the time for relinquishment and release is not now, it will never be! If intellectual understanding is something held dear, it will be a cause for great loss and grief. > There are dhammas arising now, which may be the object of awareness > given the right conditions (as set out in the texts). > ======= H > What you say is technically correct. Of course it is *possible* that this very moment ripens as path development, regardless of lifestyle or current situation. But is it *probable*? If there are 10 seconds a day of insight and 23 hours 59 minutes and 50 seconds of involvement in meaningless concepts, which do you think is being learnt, nurtured, developed, reinforced, is it insight into reality with a consequent dissolving of attachments, or is it the preference for illusion and attachment to it? I am not writing prescriptively. The simple choice/determination that is made each moment again simply has consequences for the moments that follow, that's all. I believe that a person who lives in the midst of and maintains family and friends, possessions and status in the world, and believes they can all-the-while be completely detached from this is setting themselves up for an inevitable fall. Kind Regards Herman > Jon > > Egbert wrote: > > >H > The major issue I have with the possible implications of the > >above (there is no suggestion that you have implied them) is that > >the mind is posited as a thing with its own nature. I accept that it > >is very difficult or impossible to make very precise statements that > >are also short. I would just like to make some brief counterpoints. > > > >Thinking (reflexive mind) is unique to humans. > > > >Thinking is conditioned. > > > >Language is a condition for thinking. > > > >Language is conditioned. > > > >Society is a condition for language as language is a condition for > >society. This is borne out by the fact that people not exposed to or > >removed from society loose their capacity for speech/thinking. > > > >The holy life is lived under the Blessed One for the sake of total > >Unbinding through lack of clinging. > > > >Secular society is a mass of clinging that teaches/learns clinging > >by way of discursive thinking. > > > >The holy life of the Blessed One is the antithesis of secular > >society. This is of necessity, because discursive thinking militates > >against the most basic development of mind. > > > >The fruits of the holy life are not harvested in thinking > >conditioned by a social setting. > > > >My discursive thoughts only, now back to some silence > > > > > >Kind Regards > > > > > > > >Herman > > > > 40556 From: Egbert Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 3:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing & Hearing Hi Matthew, Howard, (and everyone), Welcome aboard, Matthew. I had earlier intended to write something based on the same material you quote. Thanks for bringing the matter up. > > >Also, I would also say that when one is hearing, for example, > > >the eye is not present - that is, the physical capacity to see is > > >unarisen. Howard, I'm wondering if my following rephrasing would alter your meaning significantly. "When one is listening, the physical capacity to watch is unarisen". That there can be advertance to one sense at a time only, does not limit what those senses are upto, inadvertantly, does it? My wife has this great example from her first marriage. She would "hear" (read "advert to") the crying babies as night, while her husband wouldn't "hear" them. He would "hear" the alarm clock at 5 am, and she wouldn't. Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Matthew - > > In a message dated 1/4/05 4:47:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, > bupleurum@y... writes: > > > Howard wrote: > > >Also, I would also say that when one is hearing, for example, > > >the eye is not present - that is, the physical capacity to see is > > >unarisen. > > > > Studies have demonstrated that the data from the eyes and the ears is > > often combined to form a 'bound' percept. For example, if a listener > > is blindfolded it is difficult to locate the exact source of sound > > waves. If the blindfold is removed the sound can usually be located > > at the source. You can try this yourself. > > > > How does this fit in with the idea that "when one is hearing.. > > physical capacity to see is unarisen"? > > > > Matthew > > P.S. This is my first post. Hello everybody. > > > > > ==================== > Welcome to posting Matthew! :-) > It sounds to me that what those studies are pointing to is some > additional mental processing, what might be called "sankharic fabrication" by some > Buddhists, a processing that is itself neither hearing nor seeing. The Buddha > said that mind moves very quickly, as compared, presumably, to the objects of > consciousness. Abhidhamma in particular points out how consciousness flits from > one sense door to another, in a kind of time-share mode, and each conscious > flashing at a sense door goes by very rapidly. > So I suspect that what is going on in this matter is a flitting > amongst eye door, ear door, and mind door, with mind-door operations working on the > material presented through eye and ear to "compute" location. But the moments > of visual consciousness are moments of auditory unconsciousness, and > vice-versa. One aspect of the physical capacity to see (or "eye", for short) is the > condition that there be no other sense-door object present. (Of course, that is > only 80% physical condition, as it includes that no mind-door object be present > and not just other physical objects.) > > With metta, > Howard > 40557 From: Andrew Levin Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 3:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Availability of three suttas, bojjhangas. Hi all, It looks to me like all of the suttas linked to have not been the appropriate ones, ie, they don't fit the description of the function they are supposed to describe as described in the commentary I am reading from. However, the Vism seems to contain the essential text for each sutta in itself (eg IV 51 for the proper time to develop each factor of enlightenment, the passages following VII 73 for the other two on realizing coolness and attending to the three signs of concentration, exertion, and equanimity. I guess I don't have to go farther than this, but thanks for your efforts, all. Peace, A.L. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" wrote: > > Hi Nina > There doesnt seem to be any english translations of the > Samyutta on the metta site. The only english translations i could > find from the Bojjhangasamyutta are these from accesstoinsight> > > Himavanta Sutta (SN XLVI.1) > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn46-001.html > > Gilana Sutta (SN XLVI.14) > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn46-014a.html > > Gilana Sutta (SN XLVI.16) > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn46-016.html > > Ahara Sutta (SN XLVI.51) > http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn46-014a.html 40558 From: Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Seeing & Hearing Hi, Herman - In a message dated 1/4/05 6:25:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > > Hi Matthew, Howard, (and everyone), > > Welcome aboard, Matthew. I had earlier intended to write something > based on the same material you quote. Thanks for bringing the matter > up. > > >>>Also, I would also say that when one is hearing, for example, > >>>the eye is not present - that is, the physical capacity to see > is > >>>unarisen. > > Howard, I'm wondering if my following rephrasing would alter your > meaning significantly. > > "When one is listening, the physical capacity to watch is unarisen". > > That there can be advertance to one sense at a time only, does not > limit what those senses are upto, inadvertantly, does it? > > My wife has this great example from her first marriage. > > She would "hear" (read "advert to") the crying babies as night, > while her husband wouldn't "hear" them. > > He would "hear" the alarm clock at 5 am, and she wouldn't. > > > Kind Regards > > > > Herman > > ========================= I think that the issue you are raising is that of attention, and what registers and what does not. But that, I think, is a different matter. I believe that attention "highlights" experience, and that a certain highlighting threshhold is required for an experience to "register". But even when it does not register, it is still sensed, and at the time there is, for example, hearing, even of a sound that does not register, there will not be seeing. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40559 From: Andrew Levin Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 4:01pm Subject: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > > > >…but it appears to me that since > > > > citta and cetasika are two of the fundamental units described > in > > > > Abhidharma, the contemplation on consciousness most especially > would > > > > benefit from a thorough knowledges of consciousness and its > associated > > > > states. And in this case knowing the exact factor of energy > that is > > > > described in ACM o A seems better to me than knowing "I need to > > > > cultivate energy" (although this happens to be contemplations > on > > > > dhammas, the same principle would apply to consciousness and > the > > > > nature of all its associated states). > > > …. > > > S: Yes, good points. By consciousness under cittanupassana is > meant the > > > citta and accompanying cetasikas. These also are all included in > > > dhammanupassana, for example under the khandhas (aggregates). > Viriya > > > (energy) accompanies almost all of those cittas (not seeing > > consciousness, > > > hearing etc and one or two more. So it is included with > > consciousness and > > > dhammas. The same as you say for other associated states. It > helps a lot > > > to understand viriya as a mental state that is conditioned to > arise with > > > almost every citta regardless of whether one is flat on one's > back or > > > jumping up and down, reading a Dhamma text or watching TV. No > self > > > involved. > > > …. > > > > Well it's just more precise. What I'm looking to do here is have > an > > understanding not only of what is going on in terms of ultimate > > realities, but knowing what needs to be done. Like I said, energy > is > > one of the seven factors of enlightenment, now if I am outside > doing a > > mindful walk, and I notice energy in my breathing, I am not sure > > whether this energy has to be maintained, increased, or what have > you, > > in pursuit of the supramundane paths. Maybe it does, or maybe it > is > > not the time and place for that factor to be in. > > > > Ultimately, going beyond the concept 'energy' and knowing the true > > nature of what is referenced by that word, seems valuable to me in > my > > pursuit of enlightenment. The same applies for all the other > cittas > > and cetasikas, and probably for matter as well, but I am still only > > re-reading chapter 1 in CMA, so I am not there yet. > > Kel: As far as I've been taught, you want to move away from > concepts to reach paramattha. So to analyze each mental state or > consciousness you're experiencing and attempting to label would be > futile. Not only is your awareness lagging behind the "present > moment" but you end up adding another layer of concepts. OK. This goes along with what I have been thinking. Instead of labeling consciousness 'sleepy,' direclty know it by type as explain in Abhidhamma, right? So 'knowing' or recognizing,' not labeling. No? > viriya is sometime translate as effort too or some claim more > accurately as "sustained or continous effort". You definitely don't > want to over-exert yourself and run out of steam. At the same time, > you don't want sloth and torpor to take over by making you feel > sluggish. The practice to learn the right amount of effort or > energy to apply at a particular situation. Depending on your state > I would argue the amount is different. It's the balancing of these > mental factors you want to practice. When they're exactly balanced > and strong enough to be of indriya/bala quality then it'll approach > sambojjhanga. Anicca, dukkha, anatta are the signs of all > phenomenon. Viriya like other factors are merely a mean to an end, > vehicles. You want to reach an object that is beyond the entire > field of mind and matter as we know it. OK.. I was just using this as an example of how I can 'know' it through Abhidharma, know it thoroughly, more than just described as 'energy' in a commentary I have. Not actually asked when/how to develop it, merely that Abhidharma should make things more precise. > > Would you say that I was just being aware of one bit of > consciousness > > for its split-second duration and then move on to another, to > produce > > the illusion of continuity? > Kel: consciousness is said to happen "trillion times in a flash of > lightning or blink of an eye". Your mind was ping-ponging among > objects. > > > mindful of numerous feelings of pleasure, pain, or neut in my body > at > > different times, and of what I was hearing and seeing at a > > split-second rate, again, seemingly like I am mindful of it all at > > once. So I know since this /has/ been acheived by me, it > again /can/ > > be acheived by me, especially if it /needs/ to be acheived by me. > Kel: as long as you can identify the sound like a dog barking, > movement of your arms or the sensation is pleasure or pain or > neutral, these are still mere concepts. You need to reach to the > subtle realities where everything starts getting blurred and hard to > describe. You are merely aware. Yeah, mindful awareness. I am fond of nonconceptual awareness, especially for mindfulness of dhammas and consciousness, but however I contemplate feelings seems OK, this is an easier section. > > > our approach: I am trying to be mindful of every reality as it > > presents itself to me to the extent of knowing every possible nama > or > > rupa that can be known at a given time, even so it looks like, I am > > walking, knowing all my bodily feelings, or knowing all the four > > elements in my mind-body complex. And I would practise each of the > > foundations for some time, dependent on how results come about. > Kel: This is the way to practice. One example is to meditate like > a spider, you feel and note everything that gets caught in the web > while remaining in the center. However, as you get better the > process necessarily slows down and you can pick out individual > events separately. This takes time and a lot of practice. > So the events present themselves with more distinction, that is, as ultimate realities, as you progress. Is that what you're saying? > > Abhidhamma approach seems to to be mindful of only a bit here and a > > bit there-- nothing like the uninterrupted mindfulness that I have > as > > the ideal of my practise. > > Kel: Abhidhamma is a description of how the mental process > actually happen. It's very rare indeed for individual meditator to > see the process as it actually happens. In fact some say impossible > except for Buddha and Sariputta. Regardless, the practice is to > make your mindfulness/concentration to be as continous as possible > because the more vithi you can string together, the faster your path > will be. Which processes is it so difficult to see? Only mental processes? This is what I was thinking, that I would know which consciousnesses are arising and passing away, along with their factors. If that's not how to do it, then how do I go beyond something so simple as noting "sleepy, sleepy" or "mindful, mindful" as the commentary says? This is why I originally began studying Abhidharma, to know the processes themselves. Isn't it necessary to know thoroughly what is happening for the assurance of attainment to apply? Knowing each mind-state as described by the Buddha in the Maha-satipatthana sutta? Is awareness of 1/100th of the mental processes actually occurring going to cut it?!?! > > I just felt such gratitude for both the Buddha and these beings and > Kel: I would just watch out for 10 imperfections of insight. > > > Where is body-consciousness located? If I feel the wind on my > body, > > that is vedana, but I don't know where that cetasika is physically > > located - I mean it is an absolute reality, right? It's got to be > > somewhere either in my leg, or more likely in my head making it > feel > > like it's in my leg. I am unable to see the consciousness of it. > Kel: That's the whole point of the mind, you can't really "see" > the 4 mind khandas. You can only experience them, infer them and > penetrate them eventually to see it's all just phenomena. This is > one reason vedanaupassana is popular and doable for majority of > people. The body is there and easy to observe. And it's easy to > reach the subtler depths by following vedana. > > > Nonetheless, I am unable to let go of my vision of a person > practising > > these all because I have felt gratitude for the Buddha who I know > > existed many years ago, giving the teachings, that result in > > enlightenment, and felt, while practising, that I could acheive > > enlightenment when I eventually 'get it together' and keep > Kel: some use example of a river. You can give it a name but ask > if it's exactly the same from one moment to another. The water that > keeps flowing are not the same droplets. right-view says it is not > the same yet not another, merely a stream of consciousness. > One consciousness appearing knowing now body, now mind state, now element, right? > > > S: This is thinking about concepts of elements, organs and so > on. Most > > > precious at such times is awareness of thinking – another > conditioned > > > dhamma (cittanupassana). The ideas or concepts cannot be known, > but the > > > thinking can. > > > > Thinking sure can be known. But can't we also make use of that > great > > power of thinking to plan out how we are going to know even further > > realities beyond thinking? I think so. This is what I'm saying > > here, please reconsider the text. > Kel: Thinking is a very gross type of consciousness. You > definitely need to move to subtler level. > > > > S: Everything is lost at every moment. Mindfulness can only > arise for an > > > instant and then gone. Don't cling to it or expect it or try to > make it > > > last!! As we're comparing the way we both see practice, I'd say > that > > I see > > > such clinging to mindfulness that has arisen or may arise in the > > future as > > > being a very big impediment to such practice. > > > > > > > How? It's the Four Foundations of Mindfulness > > Kel: true test of attachment is how you react when you preceive > yourself losing or lessening in sati. Are you agitated or accept it > as is. Do your best to increase it with full equaminity or not? > How necessary is sati, if it is not essential to the practise? And how is it that people here generally think of sati in terms of what we can do to develop it or allow it to stay and not decrease? > - kel Thanks, AL 40560 From: Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The All & Nibbana TG: "At any rate, with this in mind, I think the analysis of "elements" can be done realizing that the purpose is not to be technically perfect...but rather...the purpose is merely to aid in seeing things as conditioned, impermanent, suffering, and not-self...for the greater purpose of eliminating attachments and suffering." Hi TG, I agree with this. One of yesterday's posts was discussing what is sati. What I came up with is sati is impersonal identification, unlike sanna which is usually personal identification. By personal I mean that desire or aversion, and bewilderment is mixed in with the identity. I think this aspect of impersonality is the key, rather than accuracy. I don't see any problem with identifying the conventional eye as eye. It is certainly conventionally impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not self. A deeper insight would see that this eye is a conceptual fabrication and in fact all identity is a conceptual fabrication. To my mind, that just shows it to be even more profoundly empty. Larry 40561 From: Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 4:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Nina: "When I first came to Kh Sujin I had doubts about sense-door processes. She answered: how can the mind-door get the rupa if it is not first known in a sense-door process?" Hi Nina, This doesn't help because the sense door process arises in the mind door. The problem is how do we get this gigantic mindless 100% physical earth into my 0% physical mind? Larry 40562 From: Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 4:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Availability of three suttas, bojjhangas. Hi Nina, I'm interested in this project also. If I could help out with the typing let me know. Larry --------------------------- N: "Hi Steve, thank you for the trouble. It is regrettable, but I shall just type what I want to quote. Nina." 40563 From: Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 11:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. In a message dated 1/4/2005 4:23:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Hi Nina, This doesn't help because the sense door process arises in the mind door. The problem is how do we get this gigantic mindless 100% physical earth into my 0% physical mind? Larry Hi Larry You may be reiterating a point of view that is not your own above. My view is that the physical is 100% energy, and that the mental is 100% energy. These are just energy transformations that take place between the physical and mental. Some energies are configured as a cognitive instrument. Other energies are configured as visual objects. Other energies are configured as pianos. It depends on conditions. There is no "conversion" of different types of states. And furthermore I can quote this... "A deeper insight would see that this eye is a conceptual fabrication and in fact all identity is a conceptual fabrication. To my mind, that just shows it to be even more profoundly empty." (source -- Larry) Identifying mental and physical states would also be a conceptual fabrication would it not? TG 40564 From: Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 0:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/4/05 7:23:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Nina: "When I first came to Kh Sujin I had doubts about sense-door > processes. > She answered: how can the mind-door get the rupa if it is not first > known in a sense-door process?" > > Hi Nina, > > This doesn't help because the sense door process arises in the mind > door. The problem is how do we get this gigantic mindless 100% physical > earth into my 0% physical mind? > > Larry > ====================== Larry, what the "heck" do you mean by "this gigantic mindless 100% physical earth'?! A rupa of "earth" is a particular physical sensation, period. All we ever experience are experiential objects: bodily sensations, sights, sounds, tastes, smells, feelings, emotions, thoughts, urges, inclinations, etc. The first five are physical, and the rest are mental. Consciousness is the presence of any of these. That presence is also considered mental, regardless of whether the present content is physical or mental. None of this pertains to the conceptually constructed "external world". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40565 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 5:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does Friend Herman, Herman: Out of interest, did those lay folk who "got it" return to their householders life, and carry on managing their superannuation funds (preparing for the future based on the past) as normal? James: No. According to the texts, if a person achieves Nibbana they must become a monk or they will die and enter paranibanna (the Buddha's father is an example…he died shortly after enlightenment rather than becoming a monk). An enlightened person cannot be a householder; I guess it is too antithetical to the enlightened life. Metta, James 40566 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 6:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does > Herman: Out of interest, did those lay folk who "got it" return to > their householders life, and carry on managing their superannuation > funds (preparing for the future based on the past) as normal? > > James: No. According to the texts, if a person achieves Nibbana > they must become a monk or they will die and enter paranibanna (the > Buddha's father is an example…he died shortly after enlightenment > rather than becoming a monk). An enlightened person cannot be a > householder; I guess it is too antithetical to the enlightened life. Kel: You can live a householder life up to 3rd stage of enlightenment, non-returner. It is not so much what you do but how you do it. A stream-enterer, first stage, for example would follow five percepts flawlessly. They would be faithful follower of buddha, dhamma and sanga because the seed of doubt has been destroyed. They can carry on normal lives; get married, have kids and what have you. In fact, they're still very much attached to the sensual world, else why would they come back seven more lives in the sensous sphere? The best thing is destruction of the possibility of being born into lower, unhappy existence because they are no longer capable of actions leading to that. The rounds in samsara has become finite instead of the usual infinite cycle for puthujjana. -kel 40567 From: Ken O Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 6:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Teach Abhidhamma (Was: abhidhamma - - - To ... Hi Tep, Suan and Howard I have before quoted MN 32, Mahaagosinga Sutta para 8 <<"Here friend Sariputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talks on the Higher Dhamma* and they questions each other, and each being questioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talk rolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Saala-tree Wood.">> Then later in the same sutta we see Buddha approve of B. Moggallana. * - the Higher Dhamma (translated from the pali word- abhidhammakatham)- B Bodhi personal notes. <> The there arise these questions, why did the Buddha approved it if it is not of the dhamma, so in that sense it rise doubt whether it is philosophical. Even if Buddha did not teach it as some has said, his mere approval has bear a lot of weight that Abhidhamma originate during the time of Nikayas and not after it. Furthermore , it is the other chief disciple and not Ven Sariputta who said the word on higher dhamma because usually Ven Sariputta is known to be the main proponent of Abhidhamma. Ken O 40568 From: Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 1:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Teach Abhidhamma (Was: abhidhamma - - -... In a message dated 1/4/2005 6:32:05 PM Pacific Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: Hi Tep, Suan and Howard I have before quoted MN 32, Mahaagosinga Sutta para 8 <<"Here friend Sariputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talks on the Higher Dhamma* and they questions each other, and each being questioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talk rolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu could illuminate this Gosinga Saala-tree Wood.">> Then later in the same sutta we see Buddha approve of B. Moggallana. * - the Higher Dhamma (translated from the pali word- abhidhammakatham)- B Bodhi personal notes. <> The there arise these questions, why did the Buddha approved it if it is not of the dhamma, so in that sense it rise doubt whether it is philosophical. Even if Buddha did not teach it as some has said, his mere approval has bear a lot of weight that Abhidhamma originate during the time of Nikayas and not after it. Furthermore , it is the other chief disciple and not Ven Sariputta who said the word on higher dhamma because usually Ven Sariputta is known to be the main proponent of Abhidhamma. Ken O Hi Ken O The so-called Abhidhamma that Sariputta taught was completely within the bounds of the Suttas and did not resemble the Abhidhamma Pitaka as your own posts points out. Apples and Oranges. This is quite a stretch to support the Abhidhamma Pitaka which itself has been stretched quite a bit in the commentaries. TG 40569 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 7:10pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does > The householders life is essentially a vote for attachment to the > meaningless, and a rejection of the real. The householders life is > defined in terms of having, not being. And having is defined in > terms of attachment. Kel: This seems to imply everyone should become an arahant or bust which need not be the case. Having is not attachment. Losing what you have and reacting with negativity is attachment. Even while "being" there's still goals like reaching nibbana. Again it's not the lack of goals, it's how you go about achieving those goals and what you do when you fail. An arahant doesn't sit in a forest like a vegetable. They go about expounding dhamma to the masses. Relieving people of their misery is very much goal-oriented work. > H > I could not write down a single thought that I have ever had > that wasn't meaningless, except for the thought that they were all > meaningless. Kel: too extreme imho. Buddha taught "right thought" not "no thought". > it, has the effect of putting the monk's life beyond the capability > of most people. Kel: simple fact is it is beyond most people's reach. Not even all monks can or do live fully in accord with vinaya. Perfect sila is the one thats pure in bodily, verbally and mentally actions. How many people can claim that? > > That message as I see it is that there is the potential for > development > > of the path at this very moment, regardless of lifestyle or > current > > situation. It is a matter of understanding at an intellectual > level > > first the significance of dhammas such as seeing and visible > object. > > ====== > > H > I think the reality is that the suffering we know is preferred > to the freedom we don't want to know. But of course a point will > come in the lives of every being, of every status, in which > everything that was gained will be lost, everything that was clung > to will be washed away. There will be nothing of an intellectual > level which will do anyone any good, at that time. And we all know > that, intellectually. Kel: You're both right, just arguing at different levels. Wisdom is sometime split into three categories: received (suta), intellectual (cinta) and experiential (bhavana). You need fairly mature suta and cinta wisdom as not only foundation but guide in gaining experiential wisdom. Without a proper guide, we can wander in the dark forever (or have been) and not make any notable progress. At the same time, we can spend the whole life reading a million different guides and never move a step. Both extremes have to be avoided. > I believe that a person who lives in the midst of and maintains > family and friends, possessions and status in the world, and > believes they can all-the-while be completely detached from this is > setting themselves up for an inevitable fall. A true test of someone's progress on the path is how they handle vissitudes of life. A monk is not necessarily free from friends, possessions or status in the world. They have to maintain relations with devotees. Take care of the monastery or their disciples. Even a meditation master has to worry about his students and whether he's providing proper guidance. The dhamma gives us the strength to face things straight-on, not avoid them. Of course the more one can reduce the external stimulus the faster or higher probability of one's progress on the path. However, saying work can't be done as a householder is a disservice to dhamma according to Ledi Sayadaw. - kel 40570 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 8:51pm Subject: Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi Andrew, I think this discussion is mostly your own meditate practice now. So if you want to email me directly instead of posting to the group, that's fine with me. In general, I don't think full understanding of abhidhamma is necessary for a meditator. Basic concepts which you already have a firm grasp of is enough. You just need to establish yourself firmly in the practice with a technique. While Buddha encouraged us to find our own path, he also extolled the immeasurable value of a competent teacher or mentor. From my own experience, they can point out things to me in 5 mins while I can spend hours pondering and lose valuable practice time. > > Kel: As far as I've been taught, you want to move away from > > concepts to reach paramattha. So to analyze each mental state or > > consciousness you're experiencing and attempting to label would be > > futile. Not only is your awareness lagging behind the "present > > moment" but you end up adding another layer of concepts. > > OK. This goes along with what I have been thinking. Instead of > labeling consciousness 'sleepy,' direclty know it by type as explain > in Abhidhamma, right? So 'knowing' or recognizing,' not labeling. No? Kel: Yes but even recognizing is labelling at a subtle level. The fact that you can equate the consciousness with the types defined in Abhidhamma means there was a series of complicated mental processes (recall memory) that you missed. You just want to cognize because that's the only thing you can't stop (being product of kamma). > OK.. I was just using this as an example of how I can 'know' it > through Abhidharma, know it thoroughly, more than just described as > 'energy' in a commentary I have. Not actually asked when/how to > develop it, merely that Abhidharma should make things more precise. Kel: Well this was one point I wanted to make actually. Abhidhamma is like the periodic table. It's just tabulation and systemization of how the world works. It's not meant to be a guide for a practitioner. Of course it you understand it then your progress could be faster but it's not necessary or even the proper guide. > Yeah, mindful awareness. I am fond of nonconceptual awareness, > especially for mindfulness of dhammas and consciousness, but however I > contemplate feelings seems OK, this is an easier section. Kel: Thing to watch out for is if you fall into bhavanga or actually aware. Then you feel like aware but it's not sharp. Feels like floating around effortlessly but not very investigative or insightful. At some point you have to penetrate through layers to reach paramattha. > So the events present themselves with more distinction, that is, as > ultimate realities, as you progress. Is that what you're saying? Kel: Events or even prominent cetasika are observed individually and clearly instead of a group as one prominent monk described it. This is clearly a very advanced stage though. > Which processes is it so difficult to see? Only mental processes? Kel: well rupa vithi is 16 or 17 times slower (depends on how you count). It's EASIER to follow, but still pretty hard to see the whole process clearly. > This is what I was thinking, that I would know which consciousnesses > are arising and passing away, along with their factors. If that's not > how to do it, then how do I go beyond something so simple as noting > "sleepy, sleepy" or "mindful, mindful" as the commentary says? This > is why I originally began studying Abhidharma, to know the processes > themselves. Kel: Doesn't matter at the end since you have to observe each consciousness with equanimity. There are many techniques and systematic way of cultivating it. Vissudhimagga gives a few examples i know but it's mostly samatha. I think you've been practicing vipassana. You can mix and match the two as required. Basically if your noting mind is powerful, it can shatter 'sleepy' state as soon as you observe it. Now if you look at it with intention of shattering then it probably won't work since your mind wasn't equanimous. I'm not qualified to give meditative instructions so I won't. I would just ask how continuous is your mindfuless, what do you do when thoughts appear or pain? Can you stare at the pain just knowing it's just body/matter and impermanent and not related to you, as if happening to someone else? Ever get impatient with the practice or can't wait for a sit to be over? How do you handle many different things that appear during a session? > Isn't it necessary to know thoroughly what is happening for the > assurance of attainment to apply? Knowing each mind-state as > described by the Buddha in the Maha-satipatthana sutta? Is awareness > of 1/100th of the mental processes actually occurring going to cut it?!?! Kel: Well if you can keep up 1/100 for 24/7 then i can pretty much guarantee you'll be at least stream-enterer. From my perspective he's just enumerating all the possibilities so people understand you just have to be aware in every situation. Paraphrasing a bit, every state just know it as mind and matter phenomena. Then you'll see there is nothing to be attached to because it's fleeting. The moment you want to latch onto is already gone and all you can tether are concepts. Then when you experience this for yourself the (arising-passing away and later just passing away) nature of vedana (or whatever object). You should see an increase in your ability to "let go" of things. Then when it matures to a point, you'll let go of the view of a fixed entity self and reach first stage of liberation. > > Kel: some use example of a river. You can give it a name but ask > > if it's exactly the same from one moment to another. The water that > > keeps flowing are not the same droplets. right-view says it is not > > the same yet not another, merely a stream of consciousness. > > > > One consciousness appearing knowing now body, now mind state, now > element, right? Yeah in a sense. You have to look at the citta vithi to see the complete sequence. One vithi says knowing body-object. Then another vithi says knowing mind-object. A vithi isn't just one consciousness, Htoo posted the technical details of it. If you don't understand it, don't worry, it's not fundamental. Just have to know it arises and passes away. > > Kel: true test of attachment is how you react when you preceive > > yourself losing or lessening in sati. Are you agitated or accept it > > as is. Do your best to increase it with full equaminity or not? > > > > How necessary is sati, if it is not essential to the practise? And > how is it that people here generally think of sati in terms of what we > can do to develop it or allow it to stay and not decrease? Sati is very necessary but it's just a mean. In the same way, viriya, samadhi, panna and etc are all essential too. But, equanimity is the yardstick if you can truthfully examine yourself. Do you best to stay aware with sustained effort while remaining equanimous. Choiceless observation method is one of the harder ones to remain focused or concentrated. So find an anchor to increase your samadhi like anapana if you need it. With better practice you can "rebuild" your samadhi using kanika concentration. - kel 40571 From: Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 9:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Howard: "A rupa of "earth" is a particular physical sensation, period." Hi Howard and TG, A physical sensation is body consciousness, not rupa. The nama/rupa distinction is simply mind and matter, the material and the immaterial. They are not the same in any way, yet somehow they interact. When your hand and an object touch you know there is an object, which is rupa, but the touch sensation is nama. The only thing we can say about rupa is that it is void of all mental qualities. Color, sound, taste, smell, texture are all mental qualities. You can tell this because you experience the same thing in different ways, often due to changes in your sensory organs. When our organs are working properly we assume there is an exact correlation between sensation and rupa but sensation behaves in a much different way, flickering here and there, always moving. If the furniture in my room danced around like my mind I would be living in a whirlpool. Larry 40572 From: Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 5:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. In a message dated 1/4/2005 9:03:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Hi Howard and TG, A physical sensation is body consciousness, not rupa. The nama/rupa distinction is simply mind and matter, the material and the immaterial. They are not the same in any way, yet somehow they interact. When your hand and an object touch you know there is an object, which is rupa, but the touch sensation is nama. The only thing we can say about rupa is that it is void of all mental qualities. Color, sound, taste, smell, texture are all mental qualities. You can tell this because you experience the same thing in different ways, often due to changes in your sensory organs. When our organs are working properly we assume there is an exact correlation between sensation and rupa but sensation behaves in a much different way, flickering here and there, always moving. If the furniture in my room danced around like my mind I would be living in a whirlpool. Larry Hi Larry Sounds like you got it all figured out. What I don't understand is why you asked the question. ;-) BTW, your furniture is dancing around much like your mind...its just doing it much slower and "unsystematically." Both mind and furniture are just respondents to conditional forces. TG 40573 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 11:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi AndrewL, Kel has made some good points, but I’ll add mine to your qs anyway. Thx for all the detailed comments. --- Andrew Levin wrote: > Well, let's try to sort these out. You are saying "one citta can > arise at a time." …. S: This is not just what I say, but what we read in the texts. See BB’s Guide to ch1,#3: “…..cittas, are reckoned 89, or, by a finer method of differentiation, as 121 (see Table 1.1) what we ordinarily think of as consciousness is really a series of cittas, momentary acts of consciousness, occurring in such rapid succession that we cannot detect the discrete occasions, which are of diverse types.” There can however be awareness of the characteristic of seeing or hearing or thinking, each kind different and never arising together. … >How can we reconcile this with walks that I have > taken being mindful of the breath, feelings, and objects of a few > sense doors almost concurrently, to the extent that /numerous/ devas > appeared overhead streaming above me (more about this in a min.) …. S: Our thoughts (not necessarily in words, but just attention to ‘signs’ about experiences) follows the sense experiences so quickly that it seems there can be mindfulness of many objects at once, but really it’s impossible. Only one reality ever appears at a time. Furthermore, when we’re referring to satipatthana, we’re only referring to mindfulness of cittas, cetasikas and rupas – not concepts such as breath or devas. For example, hardness or softness may appear, but if we then think about breath, devas or many objects, it’s thinking at that moment. … …. > Would you say that I was just being aware of one bit of consciousness > for its split-second duration and then move on to another, to produce > the illusion of continuity? It was this fast, it seemed like I was > mindful of numerous feelings of pleasure, pain, or neut in my body at > different times, and of what I was hearing and seeing at a > split-second rate, again, seemingly like I am mindful of it all at > once. So I know since this /has/ been acheived by me, it again /can/ > be acheived by me, especially if it /needs/ to be acheived by me. …. S: Recently I heard about 3 things which produce the illusion of continuity as you put it. One is the clinging to the idea of posture. For example, when we cling to an idea of our body sitting or walking, it covers up the momentary arising and falling of dhammas. Another is the continuity or succession of realities themselves.As you say, they follow each other so quickly and without any break, so it seems they can be experienced at once. Finally, there is the memory of a group or a whole, a perversion of sanna which makes it seem there can be seeing and hearing at the same time and so on. It’s not mindfulness. No one can say for another when there is or is not mindfulness. Panna (understanding) will know when it develops and really understands the nature of the mindfulness. What’s gone is gone. If there is clinging to it or dwelling on it now, this is the reality to be known. What’s gone is of no importance or value at all. …. >Anyhow, > is it that you propose that only one consciousness can exist at a > time, and that it alternates rapidly between the different sense > doors, creating an illusion of continuity? …. S: Yes, very well put.Of course, moha or delusion is really at the root of this illusion. Vism V111,40: ‘ “Life, person, pleasure, pain – just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: The highest sense this concept will allow” ‘ (Nd 1,42) There is also the example given of the chariot wheel which touches the ground at just one spot at a time. …. > Where is body-consciousness located? If I feel the wind on my body, > that is vedana, but I don't know where that cetasika is physically > located - I mean it is an absolute reality, right? It's got to be > somewhere either in my leg, or more likely in my head making it feel > like it's in my leg. I am unable to see the consciousness of it. …. S: Body consciousness is ‘based’ all over the body. There is body-sense in the fingers, toes, arms etc whereby body consciousness can experience heat/cold, hardness/softness and motion. These are rupas experienced by body consciousness. Vedana (feelings) are cetasikas (mental factors) which accompany the body consciousness. So there is pleasant or unpleasant feeling at the instant the rupas are experienced by body consciousness. Yes, vedana is a reality, a nama, quite distinct from the rupas experienced by it, the citta and other cetasikas. Vedana arises at every moment, accompanying every citta. You can never see any consciousness, but awareness can be aware of the experiencing/consciousness or the feeling or the heat experienced, for example. …. > Seeing consciousness and hearing consciousness are only the result of > kamma, huh? …. S: Yes! … >That is kind of a new twist on things for me. It's hard > for me to accept that if I idle chatter on #buddhism/EFnet, that is > going to change my hearing of the car sounds, horns honking, people > talking as I pass the gas station.. etc. I don't see how it's > possible, but I won't negate its possibility outright. …. S: Unless the idle chatter is of the degree of kamma patha (another topic), it cannot bring results, but at the same time all kusala and akusala accumulates and can assist kamma patha in future. Recently in the ‘Cetasikas’ series there were examples of harsh speech resulting in hearing loud sounds etc as given in a sutta. Kamma-vipaka is of course a deep, deep subject, but we can see how there is kusala and akusala vipaka changing all the time, such as hearing pleasant and unpleasant sounds. Herman just gave the example of people hearing different sounds. Why? Vipaka and other conditions. Nothing unfair. …. > But to me it seems we can do this with idea of self to get to the > point where self-view is eliminated. (This does work, with the > contemplations outlined in the (Maha-)Satipatthana sutta, that we > still go through the four stages of enlightenment, no matter which > contemplation(s) we choose?) …. S: No, the idea of self just leads to more idea of self as I see it. Comy to Satipatthana Sutta: “What he sees that is not (properly) seen; What is seen, that he does not (properly) see; Not seeing (properly) he is shackled clean; And he, the shackled fool, cannot get free. ‘What he sees’ = what man or woman he sees……That perception, owing to wrong comprehension, does not get at the sense-basis [ruupaayatana] in the highest sense, philosophically, through the falsely determined condition of material form….etc” …. > Thinking sure can be known. But can't we also make use of that great > power of thinking to plan out how we are going to know even further > realities beyond thinking? I think so. This is what I'm saying here, > please reconsider the text. … S: But this is just thinking about knowing realities in the future, or become enlightened in future, instead of being mindful and understanding what is real right now. In other words, it’s wishful thinking, it seems to me. …. S:>>As we're comparing the way we both see practice, I'd say that > I see > > such clinging to mindfulness that has arisen or may arise in the > future as > > being a very big impediment to such practice. > > > A:> How? It's the Four Foundations of Mindfulness … S: Pls explain your qu. Clinging is included in the Foundations as an dhamma to be known, but it’s not itself the path to be followed. Al, I’ve ruthlessly trimmed your content. If there’s anything else you’d like discussed, pls repost it. I’ll be glad for any of your feedback and further comments on anything I’ve written here. I’m also delighted to read your discussion with Kel (& others I think). Pls keep it up for us all to learn from. Metta, Sarah ======= 40574 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 11:25pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 92 - Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (d) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** Rebirth-consciousness, the first citta of life, and its accompanying cetasikas are the mental result of kamma. In the planes where there are nåma and rúpa kamma also produces rúpas from the first moment of life. Also throughout life there are rúpas produced by kamma such as eyesense, earsense and the other senses which are the means for vipåkacittas to experience pleasant or unpleasant objects. The rúpas produced by kamma are the physical results of kamma. The different rúpas of our body are not only produced by kamma, but also by citta, by temperature and by nutrition. Thus, there are four factors which each produce different rúpas of our body. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40575 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 11:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies to the bees Hi Herman, --- Egbert wrote: > In closing, a little ditty > > I'd rather be a bee > It 'd sure beat being me > > As a worldling I can see > That it would be so heavenly > To buzz around unreflexively > > But for the bee > There would not be > even any dimensionality > > It is a human fantasy > that projects self-hood outwardly > > If there is an I > than that is why > everything else is seen anthropomorhically .... S: Cute;-) And here's another ditty, Still harping on micha ditthi. It's said a sotapanna's so wise, No self-view in any guise. In short, there's no doubt, All ditthi are out. Metta, Sarah ======= 40576 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 4, 2005 11:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies Friend James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > I have been giving the Brahajala Sutta some study and I don't think > it includes *ALL* types of wrong views. It only includes wrong > views which are `fixed' and of an ontological order. … ;-). We’re taling about views relating to Truths, to an understanding of Dhamma. … > Not only that, > these various views were from the Buddha's time period and don't > necessarily apply to all time periods (for example, from my reading, > it doesn't include the modern wrong views of Existentialism and > Objectivism). … S: don’t you think the Buddha was teaching universal truths for all time periods? … From the Brahajala Sutta: > > "There are, monks, some ascetics and Brahmins who are speculators > about the past, having fixed views about the past, and who put > forward various speculative theories about the past, in eighteen > different ways. On what basis, on what grounds do they do > so?"… "This, monks, the Tathágata understands : These viewpoints > thus grasped and adhered to will lead to such-and-such destinations > in another world."… …. S: “Whatever recluses or brhamins are speculators about the past, hold settled views about the past, and assert various conceptual theorems referring to the past, all of them do so on these eighteen grounds, or on a certain one of them. OUTSIDE OF THESE THERE IS NONE.” {my caps]. S: Lots of detail in the commentary BB has translated. Lots of Q and A on the views and classifications too. At the end of one section, the comy gives: “…Therefore whatever views the Exalted One has explained, and the way they have been explained, should be accepted with conviction precisely in that way. No demonstration or examination is pertinent here, for this is the domain of the buddha’s knowledge, and the domain of the Buddha’s knowledge is inconceivable.” … > "Whatever ascetics and Brahmins who are speculators about the past > or the future or both, having fixed views on the matter and put > forth speculative views about it, these are all trapped in the net > with its sixty-two divisions, and wherever they emerge and try to > get out, they are caught and held in this net. Just as a skilled > fisherman or his apprentice might cover a small piece of water with > a fine-meshed net, thinking : `Whatever larger creatures there may > be in this water, they are all trapped in the net, caught, and held > in the net', so it is with all these : they are trapped and caught > in this net." …. Thank you. Again from the sutta: “It is on these sixty-two grounds, bhikkhus…….past…future……all of them do so on these sixty-two grounds, or on a certain one of them. OUTSIDE OF THESE THERE IS NONE.” Metta, Sarah ======= 40577 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 0:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Q. different individuals Hi Phil, Hope you're there and your computer's still running. I wished to say that I thought your post #40283 was really very astute and I agreed with all your points. Just a couple below: --- Philip wrote: > Am I right in assuming that once we know in theory about this > arising of the characteristics at enlightenment, that it is not > necessary to consider which characteristic one is most likely to > experience? Well, that's an obvious question - the answer is "yes > Phil, you're right. No need to think about that." .... S: ;-). Exactly. .... > Yet again, for the beginner there is such danger in thinking too > much about what kind of person one is because it invites wrong view > of self as fixed. But there *are* tendencies, and the verb "usually" > is used in the translation of one sutta (can't dig it up at the > moment) to encourage us to consider what we "usually" think about. .... S: Exactly again. Different tendencies changing all the time. ... > Is it possible to know where one's tendencies lie and is this > encouraged by the Buddha? Yes. Is it easy to take advantage of > knowing where one's tendencies lie in a skillful way? No. More > opportunity to cultivate patience here. ... S: Just at the present moment only. .... > BTW, what does everyone think about this next bit of the Bhikkhu's > commentary?: "Additionally, we might suppose, one is reckoned not > only by way of the defilements, but even more prominently by way of > the aggregate with which one principally identifies. One who inclines > to form is reckoned a "physical" person, one who inclines to feeling > a "hedonist", one who inclines to perception "an aesthete" (or fact- > gatherer?) -- one who inclines to > volition a "man of action" one who inclines to consciousness a > thinker etc." > > Is this commentary just speculation on the Bhikkhu's part or is > there any such teaching? I must respectfully say that it sounds a bit > dubious. ... S: I preferred your commentary comments too in this instance;-). Metta, Sarah ====== 40578 From: Egbert Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 0:16am Subject: Re: Seeing & Hearing Hi Howard (and all), Thanks for your reply. Much appreciated. Big snip up ahead :-). > I think that the issue you are raising is that of attention, and what > registers and what does not. But that, I think, is a different matter. I > believe that attention "highlights" experience, and that a certain highlighting > threshhold is required for an experience to "register". But even when it does not > register, it is still sensed, and at the time there is, for example, hearing, > even of a sound that does not register, there will not be seeing. > ====== HH > Am I right in reading you as saying that at a most basic level there cannot be a concurrent/parallel sensing? Are you saying that all sensing is serial ie one basic sensation at a time? (I accept that attention is serial in nature) Kind Regards Herman > With metta, > Howard > 40579 From: Egbert Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 1:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does Dear James, Thank you for this. As well as the Buddha's father, there is Bahiya, gored by a bovine. There is another sutta, which I just cannot place at the moment, where the Buddha chooses to teach Dhamma to a fellow he is sharing a stable with. The fellow "got it" as well, and got gored pretty much next day, if I remember correctly. All the best to you Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Friend Herman, > > Herman: Out of interest, did those lay folk who "got it" return to > their householders life, and carry on managing their superannuation > funds (preparing for the future based on the past) as normal? > > James: No. According to the texts, if a person achieves Nibbana > they must become a monk or they will die and enter paranibanna (the > Buddha's father is an example…he died shortly after enlightenment > rather than becoming a monk). An enlightened person cannot be a > householder; I guess it is too antithetical to the enlightened life. > > Metta, > James 40580 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 1:16am Subject: Htoo- I'm seeing DTs in my dreams! Hi Htoo, You’ve written a whole series of excellent Dhamma Thread (DT) posts since we last chatted. Sometimes I get behind, but I do follow and appreciate them a lot as you know. I’m going to use short-hand for all these comments/qus which may only make sense to you. ..... DT185 #40338 Tadarammana – yes, I follow your posts and I think there are a complexity of conditions determing tadarammana as Sammohavinodani indicated I think.As you say it’s ‘patthana dhamma’ and the Patthana will be the first to disappear due to its profundity. I agree (or I read) as you say in #40339 that kus vipaka tadarammana can follow experience of a disagreeable object and vice versa. (Nina, we can possibly raise it with KS sometime too if you like, but I think we know the answer to this intricate points;-)). ..... DT196 #40169 Past/current object. I’m not sure that it’s correct that the object of patisandhi is always classified as past object. If the object of marana-asanna-javana-cittas was a ‘present object’, I understood it is the ‘duplicate’ which is the object of patisandhi, bhavanga and cuti in the next life, i.e ‘present’ object by navattaba (Not so Classifiable) object. Lots of detail in Sammohavinodani, but I confess this is just my understanding and I’m not checking now. It’s just like the way sense objects are understood in the mind-door process. Strictly speaking they’re past, but they are considered as ‘present’. Also this is the way citta B has citta A as object as you were discussing with Howard. Not just by thinking as in your example about dosa when you say ‘such and such time I was angry and that must be dosa….’. The characteristic of dosa can be understood directly as ‘present’ object. This comes up in other posts too. ….. DT 202 #40197 I’m sure I’m being dense, but under hadayavatthu nissita cittas ( cittas which depend on hadaya as base), - Ok got it now. I was confused before about the 75 and 33, but you’re indicating those that don’t arise in the arupa brahma realm in the ‘other’ 30. Perhaps this one was rather unclear, but correct I’m sure. ..... DT205 #40202 I’m confused about whether aragatta maggatthana puggala is considered as sikkha (trainer) or asikkha. I thought the latter as it is the magga citta which eradicates the defilements. You write that no 2 (this one) ‘have not yet attained arahatta magga nana’ and are called ‘sikkha’.. Maybe it’s a typo, b.c in DT206 #40245, you refer to asikkha cittas arising in the arahant inc. 1 arahatta phala citta. ..... DT208 #40248 I just want to say I like it a lot when you stress the points you do here such as: “many classifications of citta have been discussed……. There are illusionary lives as we define them but actually in ultimate sense there are only cittas, cetasikas, rupas and nibbana.’ We can’t stress this enough imho. ..... DT209 #40342 Excellent points.and post. The summaries are very helpful for clarification. You mention how patisandhi can arise anywhere (‘heaven’ or ‘top of a mountain’ )but you also stress ‘in actual term or in real term, there is no being at all but cittas and cetasikas arising and falling away along with arising and falling away of rupas even though they are not mixed and they are separate matters’. And of course, like it discusses in Milinda panha, wherever rebirth occurs, the time for patisandhi to arise is the same! ..... Mind-door processing #40345 I don’t know why you suggest ‘there is no rupa as object or arammana’ in the mind-door processes. Generally this is true, but rupas can also be experienced in the mind-door immediately after the sense door process as you know ..... Finally, a very small point DT210 #40373 Why do you say ‘the cittas of these vithi varas take panca-arammana or 5 sense object’? Why not 7 sense object? I assume, pathavi, tejo and vayo are being classified as one here? Anyway v.interesting and useful. ..... Really, Htoo, your output has been very prolific (I know it’s slowed down a little recently) and there’s been almost nothing I’ve found unclear and almost nothing to nit-pick or question. I greatly look forward to the continued series. (I’m still a little behind and have a few to read later, but you know me – I’m always behind with comments). Metta and anumodana. Please meet Kel, also from Burma and with keen Abhidhamma knowledge. and interest to help us out here. Metta, Sarah ======= 40581 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Hi Larry, op 05-01-2005 01:22 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: how can the mind-door get the rupa if it is not first > known in a sense-door process?" > > This doesn't help because the sense door process arises in the mind > door. The problem is how do we get this gigantic mindless 100% physical > earth into my 0% physical mind? N: Lodewijk thinks that this is a perfectly good question and completely understandable that you ask this. Next week when we propably go away for a few days he will think further about this. Meanwhile, what shall I say? I am not inclined to have pictorial ideas about mind and matter. I think that citta can experience anything, even nibbaana which is unconditioned. If you were blind you could not think about visible object. But you can verify that now you can think of colour or visible object which is rupa. But why can you think of it? Because there has been seeing through the eyesense. We can call eyesense, a rupa, the eyedoor. Doorway, because it is the means for the experiencing an object. Without a doorway you could not experience visible object, you could not see. You write to Howard: N: Color etc. do not experience anything, they are rupas. But these rupas themselves are different all the time. They are never the same. There are many different colors, many different sounds because of conditions, they are conditioned dhammas. Even though there is a great variety of colour, sound etc. citta experiences them all. And sañña marks each object. That is why citta knows whether the flower is a real one or a fake one. Just a few thoughts, Nina. 40582 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 1:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Dear Tep and Chris, This is a good topic. op 04-01-2005 21:26 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > Before starting to write this mail, I read your message twice. A question > came to my mind about what conditions (paccaya) we must keep > throughout each day such that "great interest, strong enthusiam, > confidence, contentment in the practice" can be maintained. N: I read a sutta, G.S. Book of the Tens, Ch II, §1, Making for Warding (It is in the beginning): it is about a monk's dwelling that is complete in five factors. Where it is easy to obtain the requisites, where elders are dwelling who are well versed in the dhamma. I like the emphasis on Dhamma discussions here as a means to solve doubts. More understanding does condition confidence, enthusiasm. T: Then I recalled a sutta I had read long ago. It says that the monk can > be steady in the progress toward Nibbana when he keeps a "samadhi > nimitta" in the morning, in the evening, and at night. I am not sure what it > may mean to most people who don't do meditation. N: I read a sutta in S.N. before about the three times of day, that it is always the auspicious time for kusala. I did not see the samadhi nimitta, but this can be included, for example by way of a meditation for every occasion, like the Buddha's excellent qualities. Even while working or . But I am thinking foremost of Dhamma as meditation. Considering and beginning to be aware of nama and rupa. This solves doubts even at a beginning stage. Recently I have been reflecting on beginners and progress and how to see this. If you are interested I may write about this. Perhaps a seemingly lack of progress could make some friends here discouraged. What do you think, Tep? I like very much what Howard and TG wrote. Nina. 40583 From: nina Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 1:24am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 128, and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 128, and Tiika. Intro: in the previous section feelings were classified according to jaati, class, as kusala, akusala and indeterminate, including vipaaka and kiriya. In this section feelings classified as fivefold are analysed according to the object that is experienced. The object can be desirable or undesirable and this conditions the arising of different feelings. Text Vis. 128: Herein, 'pleasure' has the characteristic of experiencing a desirable tangible datum. N: The Tiika states that all feelings have the general characteristic of experiencing, but that they here are explained by defining their object, with the words:< 'pleasure' has the characteristic of experiencing a desirable tangible datum.> Text Vis. : Its function is to intensify associated states. N: The Tiika explains intensifying (upabruuhana) as development and growth. It strengthens the accompanying dhammas. Text: It is manifested as bodily enjoyment. The Tiika quotes from the K.S. III, Ch 3, § 26: The Tiika explains that the word means, dependent on the body, thus, that here satisfaction (assaado) is the manifestation of bodily pleasant feeling. Text Vis: Its proximate cause is the body faculty (kaayindriya). The Tiika explains that this is its physical base, vatthu. N: The bodysense is all over the body and this is the base for the citta which is body-consciousness and its accompamying cetasikas, including bodily feeling. Vis. text: 'Pain' has the characteristic of experiencing an undesirable tangible datum. It function is to wither associated states. It is manifested as bodily affliction. Its proximate cause is the body faculty. The Tiika states that this should be understood according to the same method. Text Vis: 'Joy' has the characteristic of experiencing a desirable object. Its function is to exploit [55] in one way or another the desirable aspect. N: The Tiika explains (yathaa tathaa vaa) as pertaining to truly desirable or not truly desirable. The object may be intrinsically desirable or imagined to be so (T.A. p. 90). The function of happy feeling is making use of or enjoying (sa.mbuñjana) the pleasant object. Text Vis: It is manifested as mental enjoyment. N: mental enjoyment is the translation of enjoyment of cetasikas (cetasikaassaada). This is the satisfaction of the accompanying cetasikas. The cetasika which is happy feeling conditions the accompanying cetasikas. Text Vis: Its proximate cause is tranquility. The Tiika quotes from the G.S. Book of the Elevens, Ch 2, § 1, Mahaa-nama, Body in this context means the mental body, cetasikas. The Tiika explains that, based on the words of the sutta, happiness should be understood as referring to happy feeling that is not material, not worldly (niraamisa). N: Happy feeling arising with the jhånacitta is not based on the household life or the sensepleasures, but based on renunciation. Thus, the proximate cause of this kind of happy feeling is calm. Text Vis: 'Grief' has the characteristic of experiencing an undesirable object. Its function is to exploit in one way or another the undesirable aspect. It is manifested as affliction. N: The Tiika explains that the characteristic of unhappy feeling should be dealt with in the same way as the characteristic of happy feeling. Text Vis: Its proximate cause is invariably the heart-basis. Herein is the difference with happy feeling. The Tiika explains that since unhappy feeling arises in the sensuous planes of existence (kaama-dhaatu) its proximate cause is invariably the heartbase. N: Unhappy feeling can only arise in the sensuous planes where there are naama and ruupa. Citta rooted in dosa accompanied by unhappy feeling is conditioned by clinging to sense objects. Text Vis.: 'Equanimity' has the characteristic of being felt as neutral. N: the Tiika explains that it is impartial in the experience of the object. The Pali term majjhatta, being in the middle, neutral, is used here. Text Vis.: Its function is not to intensify or wither associated states much. It is manifested as peacefulness. Its proximate cause is consciousness without happiness.[56] N: As to its manifestation, the Tiika explains that this is to be understood as the blameless indifferent feeling which is not worldly, based on renunciation (niraamisa). The Tiika states that this does not pertain to all kinds of indifferent feeling. N: The indifferent feeling arising with jhaanacitta of the fifth stage (of the fivefold system) is indifferent feeling which is based on renunciation. Its proximate cause is citta without happiness, which is here the translation of piiti, rapture. The jhaanacitta of the fourth stage is without rapture, this has been abandoned. However, it is still accompanied by happy feeling. This citta is the proximate cause of the indifferent feeling arising with the jhånacitta of the fifth stage. Vis. Text: This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the feeling aggregate. ---------------------------- Note 55. Sambhoga--'exploiting': not in this sense in P.T.S. Dict. (see also Ch. XVII,51). Note 56. The translator should have added this note to the previous para, no. 127, where the Tiika deals with these subjects, and uses the similes of hammer and cottonwool. **** N: The condition for pleasant or painful bodily feelings is only a desirable or undesirable tangible object. Thus, the elements of solidity, temperature and motion. Bodily feelings are mental, they are vipaakacittas, produced by kamma. We find it very important whether the object that is experienced is desirable or undesirable, and on account of that object defilements are likely to arise shortly after the vipaakacittas. We should remember that feelings arise each because of their own conditions and that there is no self who feels. It is feeling that feels. The Dispeller of Delusion, (Ch 7, Classification of the Foundations of mindfulness, Contemplation of Feeling, 1215) explains that the basis of feeling is its object. We read:< Therefore he knows accordingly that ³feeling feels by making this or that basis for pleasure and so on its object, but [the words] ŒI feel¹ are merely a conventional expression [used] with regard to the occurrence of that feeling.² In this way it should be understood that ³ he knows: ŒI feel a pleasant feeling¹ ² while discerning thus that ³it is feeling that feels by making the basis the object.² > When we read in the Satipatthaana Sutta the words: we should remember the real meaning of these words as explained above. They point to the truth of anatta. **** Nina. 40584 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 2:51am Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello all, > > Strange, isn't it ... how enthusiam for the Dhamma wafts and > wanes ... ? > I've noticed a pattern over the last year or so - great interest, > strong enthusiam, confidence, contentment in the practice .. and > then, boredom, alienation, doubt, discontent. I'm at the bottom of > that cycle at the moment - hope it is a cycle - not sure what to ... Dear Christine O yes, I recognize this and have it myself too on this moment. To be honest: it's not for buddhism in general but for the scholastic Abhidhamma details (which I called in a not yet finished discussion with Sarah 'orthodoxy'). I now think the study of it's details are not fruitfull for me now; I think (intuition !) now doing (insight-) meditation and studying sutta's and sutra's are more fruitfull. And perhaps in half a year studying Abhidhamma helps me again: there are more paths to enlightenment. Metta Joop 40585 From: Philip Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 3:09am Subject: Re: sutta, to Phil Hi Nina, and all > Thank you for your good wishes also to Lodewijk, and we also wish you a year > fruitful with Dhamma. > The birthday part went fine, music included. But my father was overtired > when we celebrated Christmas and New Year's Eve. He could hardly eat and > everything was really difficult. Nina, there is an expression in Japanese you probably remember from your time here. "O-tsukaresama-deshita." Said to thank people for their sincere efforts to do good work. Literally, more like "you must be tired!" > I had to laugh that you dreamt of me. I used to write all my dreams in notebooks and really cling to the symbolism and whatnot. And I did overdo it. But I still feel encouraged by this one. By the way, I am reading your "Introduction to the Buddhist Scripture" and find many of my favourite suttas from Samyutta Nikaya. "This is impermanent, I do not cling to it. It has no lure for me." I still find myself saying "mai pen rai!" a lot these days, just letting go of things, knowing that it doesn't concern me. You know, it is probably just a coinicidence, but since I listened to those audio clips of K Sujin I have stopped pressing so hard to figure things out, struggling over whether to practice more formal meditation or not. Now it is just appreciation of moments of letting go of things, real confidence that I am working on the eradication of unwholesome roots, little by little. I have read that along with samvega, that sense of urgency, there arises something called pasada, I think, which is a kind of calm confidence or something. I'm also reconnected to my Japanese studies, and my writing. Perhaps not quite as intense on the Dhamma study as I was throughout last year, but that's OK. > personally, the recollection of the > > Buddha as worthy and rightly self-awakened and such is personally not > > so helpful for me. I find these days the way I reflect on the Buddha > > is by reflecting on the Noble Truth of Suffering, really soak in it, > > and from that arises such gratitude to the Buddha who shows us the > > way to liberation. > N: Meditation can be a short recollection. When you find that subjects of > Abhidhamma like akusala cittas can be verified in life, you can remember > that the Buddha taught all this. Where would you be without his teaching? I would probably still be doing visualization involving light flowing from my forehead and whatnot. And on the surface might be more blissed out and prone to the teary-eyed ecstasies I used to get a lot. Now I am sober - that's a term Phra D used in his Dhamma talk - sober. By no means cold or joyless, but definitely more sober and heedful. Also sober when it comes to the booze! But there is not telling when that might come bubbling up again. As you say, we can supress defilements, but when the conditions are right, they come forth again. Metta, Phil 40586 From: Egbert Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 3:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does Hi Kel, Nice to see you posting to the list, and thanks for the feedback. There are some comments interspersed below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > > The householders life is essentially a vote for attachment to the > > meaningless, and a rejection of the real. The householders life is > > defined in terms of having, not being. And having is defined in > > terms of attachment. > Kel: This seems to imply everyone should become an arahant or > bust which need not be the case. === H > I was not intending to write prescriptively, but I can see how it could appear that way. It is possible to read the Suttas as if- then statements. As in - If you do this, that will follow. No thought of shoulding, just if you do this, that will follow. I think there is an implication that if you are happy to suffer, keep doing what you are doing. > Having is not attachment. Losing > what you have and reacting with negativity is attachment. H > I agree, but only in part. Having also prevents approaching the Teachings. This is from Udana 2:5 " Thus have I heard. On a certain occasion the Blessed One dwelt at Savatthi, in the Jetavana, the garden of Anâthapindika. At that time a certain lay disciple, by name Icchanangolaka arrived at Savatthi for the purpose of transacting some business. When this lay disciple had completed what he had to do at Savatthi, he went to where the Blessed One was, and drawing near he saluted the Blessed One and sat down respectfully apart. And the Blessed One said to the disciple as he sat there: "For a long time, O disciple, you have behaved in this manner, that is, with regard to coming here." "For a long time, Sire, I have desired to approach and see the Blessed One, but I have been deterred by business, so I have been unable to approach and see the Blessed One." And the Blessed One, in this connection, on that occasion, breathed forth this solernn utterance:-- "Happy is that upright and learned one who has no possessions! See how the rich man is troubled; How one man is in bondage to another." Even > while "being" there's still goals like reaching nibbana. Again it's > not the lack of goals, it's how you go about achieving those goals > and what you do when you fail. An arahant doesn't sit in a forest > like a vegetable. They go about expounding dhamma to the masses. > Relieving people of their misery is very much goal-oriented work. H > I do not think an arahant thinks "I'm an arahant and they are not. I will relieve their misery". Arahants do not think in terms of self, or in terms of other (selves). What an arahant does, an arahant does. What a worldling perceives an arahant to be doing is bound to be wrong. > > > H > I could not write down a single thought that I have ever had > > that wasn't meaningless, except for the thought that they were all > > meaningless. > > Kel: too extreme imho. Buddha taught "right thought" not "no > thought". Anguttara Nikàya 1. Ekakanipàta XVI. Ekadhammapali 320 Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of excreta smells and should be got rid of, I do not specify thinking even for the fraction of a second. Thanks again for your feedback, and kind regards Herman 40587 From: Philip Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 3:15am Subject: Re: Book recommendations Hi Andrew > Not meant to cause harm or ideas others. > If more people are concerned about it in the future I might change > the nick. That'S OK. I just wanted to mention that it did catch my attention. Anyways, glad to her it's just a nick. I hope you enjoy the book. It really focusses in a very clear way on the kusala and akusala roots, with sutta selections and brief commentary. Metta, Phil 40588 From: Egbert Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 3:47am Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence Hi Christine, > Hello all, > > Strange, isn't it ... how enthusiam for the Dhamma wafts and > wanes ... ? > I've noticed a pattern over the last year or so - great interest, > strong enthusiam, confidence, contentment in the practice .. and > then, boredom, alienation, doubt, discontent. I'm at the bottom of > that cycle at the moment - hope it is a cycle - not sure what to do - > other than having patience, and keeping on keeping on .... > > metta and peace, > Christine > --- The trouble is that you think you have time--- My father appends his posts with "No matter were you go, there you are". The following is a vague memory of something Leigh Brassington may have said "Don't worry about it, you'll never get out of this alive" And I say "What is real is beyond doubt, and beyond discussion. Whatever you doubt can be safely discarded as being unreal" Cheers, big ears Herman 40589 From: Egbert Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 4:08am Subject: Re: Apologies to the bees Hi Sarah, > > And here's another ditty, > Still harping on micha ditthi. > It's said a sotapanna's so wise, > No self-view in any guise. > In short, there's no doubt, > All ditthi are out. > You're a poet, and you didn't even know it :-) You'll hear no more about the matter for at least a period of time :- ) Cheers Herman > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 40590 From: jwromeijn Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 5:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep and Chris, > This is a good topic. ... Dear Nina I already had sent my reaction to Christine before I read yours. In fact my doubt is not about the Dhamma itself but about the question if studying the details of the Abhidhamma is relevant to me on this moment. Especially the lack of doubt by you and some other dsg-contribuants gives me the most problems. Stating the complex details of Abhidhamma without ever explaining how you get this information, without any emperical reference, does not give me inspiration, is only scholastic. On these moments reading for example the Heart-Sutra does give me more inspiration Two points about your message: - You said: "Dhamma as meditation. Considering and beginning to be aware of nama and rupa". I had understood, and sometimes experienced, that this awareness (the first nana, Analytical Knowledge of Body and Mind (nama-rupa- pariccheda-ñana) is a result, a output of insight-meditation. But if I understand you well you state it is a inpute, is that correct? - You proposed (to Tep): "Recently I have been reflecting on beginners and progress and how to see this. If you are interested I may write about this. Perhaps a seemingly lack of progress could make some friends here discouraged." Maybe it is to me, if you understand that's not "lack of progress" but "lack of inspiration" that is my problem. Metta Joop 40591 From: Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/5/05 12:02:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "A rupa of "earth" is a particular physical sensation, period." > > Hi Howard and TG, > > A physical sensation is body consciousness, not rupa. The nama/rupa > distinction is simply mind and matter, the material and the immaterial. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Nope, I beg to differ. So-called matter, external physical substance, is concept-only. It is never an element of experience. There is no knowing of it - only conjecturing of it. There are two kinds of phenomena (by which word I mean "elements of experience" or "content of consciousness"): the mental (nama) and the physical (rupa). What the Buddha called "earth", "air", "fire", and "water" are examples of physical phenomena, with earth, for example, being felt solidity. These are phenomenological distinctions. ----------------------------------------- > They are not the same in any way, yet somehow they interact. When your > hand and an object touch you know there is an object, which is rupa, but > the touch sensation is nama. > --------------------------------------- Howard: No. The touch sensation is rupa. It's presence - the consciousness of it - is nama. ----------------------------------------- The only thing we can say about rupa is> > that it is void of all mental qualities. Color, sound, taste, smell, > texture are all mental qualities. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: No, they are not mental qualities. They are rupas. ---------------------------------------- You can tell this because you> > experience the same thing in different ways, often due to changes in > your sensory organs. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: They are not the same thing. They are different dhammas. Because they are similar, we *think* of them as the same. --------------------------------------- When our organs are working properly we assume> > there is an exact correlation between sensation and rupa but sensation > behaves in a much different way, flickering here and there, always > moving. If the furniture in my room danced around like my mind I would > be living in a whirlpool. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Your "organs", "furniture", and the "whirlpool" are all concept-only. There is no correlation to be made between sensation and rupa. The sensation *is* rupa. ----------------------------------------- > > Larry > > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40592 From: Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 1:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing Hi, Herman - In a message dated 1/5/05 3:23:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > HH >Am I right in reading you as saying that at a most basic level > there cannot be a concurrent/parallel sensing? Are you saying that > all sensing is serial ie one basic sensation at a time? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: That is what I understand the Buddhist belief to be, and I suspect that it is correct. I don't, however, know it to be correct, and parallel sensing wouldn't bother me in the slightest. However it is, well, so it is. ---------------------------------------- > > > (I accept that attention is serial in nature) > > ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40593 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 7:06am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Howard upasaka@a... wrote: >Howard: >... I think that properties, relations, tuples, and collections are all >concept-only. They do give understanding about the way things are, but they are >mental constructs - all of them. > > The kind of conditions referred to in the teachings are not so much things that *give* understanding as things that *arise from* understanding as it is developed (although of course intellectual understanding of conditions does act as a basis for the further development of direct understanding). > Howard: > > Yes, I think that is correct. And then, also realizing, fully, that no >dhammas are self-existent, the entire experiential edifice is seen to be a >house of fragile glass cards that with the final enlightenment that is the end >of the card game comes crashing, shatteringly, down. > I'm afraid you've lost me here. Dhammas as 'not self-existent' is not terminology I am familiar with (I am of course familiar with the 3 characteristics and also dhammas as conditioned). Likewise the expression 'experiential edifice'. > Howard: > > If not a dhamma and not a concept, then what? That's all there is, >Jon. > As I said in an earlier post, you are assuming a 'rule' that isn't there. Actually, to be exact, dhammas are all there is (not concepts too). Dhammas have characteristics that, according to the texts, are apparent to developed panna. Likewise the conditioning factors that pertain between dhammas are potentially observable to developed panna, as an outcome of insight into the true nature of the individual dhammas to which they pertain, as I read the texts. Jon 40594 From: Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 2:42am Subject: Re: False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities (Re: [dsg] Conce... Hi, Jon - In a message dated 1/5/05 10:13:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > >Howard: > > > > Yes, I think that is correct. And then, also realizing, fully, that no > >dhammas are self-existent, the entire experiential edifice is seen to be a > > >house of fragile glass cards that with the final enlightenment that is the > end > >of the card game comes crashing, shatteringly, down. > > > > I'm afraid you've lost me here. Dhammas as 'not self-existent' is not > terminology I am familiar with (I am of course familiar with the 3 > characteristics and also dhammas as conditioned). Likewise the > expression 'experiential edifice'. > ====================== It's just ordinary English, Jon, not special Dhammic terminology. To not be self-existent is to be dependent. Everything that arises does so *in dependence* on conditions, making them not SELF-existent. By "the entire experiential edifice" I mean all that we experience. No big deal here. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40595 From: Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 4:01am Subject: Concepts and Questions Hi All Few questions... #1 Did the Buddha ever say "concepts don't exist" or discuss thier ontological irrelevence in any manner? (He did say..."In whatever way it is conceived, the fact is ever other than that." This shows concepts miss the mark in describing "non-relative truths." But doesn't say concepts aren't real.) #2 Does anyone believe it is possible to attain enlightenment without using concepts as a "stepping stone" for that attainment? #3 If so I'd be interested in how that's done? #4 If not, I'd be interested in how "non-existent states" can lay a "real foundation" for attaining enlightenment? In other words, how does something that doesn't exist have causal impact? TG 40596 From: Andrew Levin Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 9:20am Subject: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AndrewL, > > Kel has made some good points, but I'll add mine to your qs anyway. Thx > for all the detailed comments. > > --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > Well, let's try to sort these out. You are saying "one citta can > > arise at a time." > …. > S: This is not just what I say, but what we read in the texts. See BB's > Guide to ch1,#3: > > "…..cittas, are reckoned 89, or, by a finer method of differentiation, as > 121 (see Table 1.1) what we ordinarily think of as consciousness is really > a series of cittas, momentary acts of consciousness, occurring in such > rapid succession that we cannot detect the discrete occasions, which are > of diverse types." > > There can however be awareness of the characteristic of seeing or hearing > or thinking, each kind different and never arising together. Point. > … > >How can we reconcile this with walks that I have > > taken being mindful of the breath, feelings, and objects of a few > > sense doors almost concurrently, to the extent that /numerous/ devas > > appeared overhead streaming above me (more about this in a min.) > …. > S: Our thoughts (not necessarily in words, but just attention to `signs' > about experiences) follows the sense experiences so quickly that it seems > there can be mindfulness of many objects at once, but really it's > impossible. Only one reality ever appears at a time. Furthermore, when > we're referring to satipatthana, we're only referring to mindfulness of > cittas, cetasikas and rupas – not concepts such as breath or devas. For > example, hardness or softness may appear, but if we then think about > breath, devas or many objects, it's thinking at that moment. What I am getting at here with the deva information is taht I was practising so intensely that the devas felt it worthwhile to protect me. This does not happen just sitting at a computer and watching one element. When I practise, I will try to be mindful of all the elements at one time, or with such frequency that in conventional standards, it is all at once. Again, the difference appears very stark to me. The difference being enough that celestial beings viewed me as living a religious life when I was practising the way I said. (I know it is not good to dwell on the devas, a local monk has told me it could have me stray off the path, but I thought it would illustrate my point here well. And your point of the signs is understood. > …. > > Would you say that I was just being aware of one bit of consciousness > > for its split-second duration and then move on to another, to produce > > the illusion of continuity? It was this fast, it seemed like I was > > mindful of numerous feelings of pleasure, pain, or neut in my body at > > different times, and of what I was hearing and seeing at a > > split-second rate, again, seemingly like I am mindful of it all at > > once. So I know since this /has/ been acheived by me, it again /can/ > > be acheived by me, especially if it /needs/ to be acheived by me. > …. > S: Recently I heard about 3 things which produce the illusion of > continuity as you put it. One is the clinging to the idea of posture. For > example, when we cling to an idea of our body sitting or walking, it > covers up the momentary arising and falling of dhammas. Another is the > continuity or succession of realities themselves.As you say, they follow > each other so quickly and without any break, so it seems they can be > experienced at once. Finally, there is the memory of a group or a whole, a > perversion of sanna which makes it seem there can be seeing and hearing at > the same time and so on. It's not mindfulness. > > No one can say for another when there is or is not mindfulness. Panna > (understanding) will know when it develops and really understands the > nature of the mindfulness. What's gone is gone. If there is clinging to it > or dwelling on it now, this is the reality to be known. What's gone is of > no importance or value at all. Pffft! I say it's reproduceable. Try to understand, I am not trying to practise to the goal right now, I am trying to outline a path of practise I can take, that allows me to see progress along the way, and that I am confident will lead to the goal. So thinking *is* called for here - as I read in "Zen (Meditation?) In Plain English," thinking is a tool- not one that is appropriate for every situation, but it certainly has its uses, and I think trying to establish the validity of where my practise seems it will go appears to be such a situation to me. > …. > >Anyhow, > > is it that you propose that only one consciousness can exist at a > > time, and that it alternates rapidly between the different sense > > doors, creating an illusion of continuity? > …. > S: Yes, very well put.Of course, moha or delusion is really at the root of > this illusion. > > Vism V111,40: > > ` "Life, person, pleasure, pain – just these alone > Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. > Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive > Are all alike, gone never to return. > No [world is] born if [consciousness is] not > Produced; when that is present, then it lives; > When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead: > The highest sense this concept will allow" ` (Nd 1,42) > > There is also the example given of the chariot wheel which touches the > ground at just one spot at a time. OK, but to clear up, the cittas are always located in the mind, right? Or is it on different sense-bases? > S: Body consciousness is `based' all over the body. There is body- sense in > the fingers, toes, arms etc whereby body consciousness can experience > heat/cold, hardness/softness and motion. These are rupas experienced by > body consciousness. Vedana (feelings) are cetasikas (mental factors) which > accompany the body consciousness. So there is pleasant or unpleasant > feeling at the instant the rupas are experienced by body consciousness. > Yes, vedana is a reality, a nama, quite distinct from the rupas > experienced by it, the citta and other cetasikas. Vedana arises at every > moment, accompanying every citta. Is consciousness there too? > > You can never see any consciousness, but awareness can be aware of the > experiencing/consciousness or the feeling or the heat experienced, for > example. Weird, I thought I've seen consciousness, and on a Buddhist community forum I visit, one of the top important posts is "Does anything exist other than consciousness?" So it appears other people have seen it too. > …. > > Seeing consciousness and hearing consciousness are only the result of > > kamma, huh? > …. > S: Yes! > … > >That is kind of a new twist on things for me. It's hard > > for me to accept that if I idle chatter on #buddhism/EFnet, that is > > going to change my hearing of the car sounds, horns honking, people > > talking as I pass the gas station.. etc. I don't see how it's > > possible, but I won't negate its possibility outright. > …. > S: Unless the idle chatter is of the degree of kamma patha (another > topic), it cannot bring results, but at the same time all kusala and > akusala accumulates and can assist kamma patha in future. Recently in the > `Cetasikas' series there were examples of harsh speech resulting in > hearing loud sounds etc as given in a sutta. Kamma-vipaka is of course a > deep, deep subject, but we can see how there is kusala and akusala vipaka > changing all the time, such as hearing pleasant and unpleasant sounds. > Herman just gave the example of people hearing different sounds. Why? > Vipaka and other conditions. Nothing unfair. I am just lost here. How can idle chatter not be kamma patha? > …. > > But to me it seems we can do this with idea of self to get to the > > point where self-view is eliminated. (This does work, with the > > contemplations outlined in the (Maha-)Satipatthana sutta, that we > > still go through the four stages of enlightenment, no matter which > > contemplation(s) we choose?) > …. > S: No, the idea of self just leads to more idea of self as I see it. > > Comy to Satipatthana Sutta: > > "What he sees that is not (properly) seen; > What is seen, that he does not (properly) see; > Not seeing (properly) he is shackled clean; > And he, the shackled fool, cannot get free. > > `What he sees' = what man or woman he sees……That perception, owing to > wrong comprehension, does not get at the sense-basis [ruupaayatana] in the > highest sense, philosophically, through the falsely determined condition > of material form….etc" > …. > OK. Best to know ultimate realities then, right? > > Thinking sure can be known. But can't we also make use of that great > > power of thinking to plan out how we are going to know even further > > realities beyond thinking? I think so. This is what I'm saying here, > > please reconsider the text. > … > S: But this is just thinking about knowing realities in the future, or > become enlightened in future, instead of being mindful and understanding > what is real right now. In other words, it's wishful thinking, it seems to > me. I know that one day, as I go through all this, running through day hospital, taking showers, being overcome with feelings of fear and dread of death, taking walks, the point will come where I have great mindfulness, and will take taht and stay with it as long as I can or until I get enlightened. So I am anticipating that (and it has happened before that I've had this opportunity) and trying to make sure it's the right way. Trying to understand how practise is and how, if at all, it will bear fruit. > …. > S:>>As we're comparing the way we both see practice, I'd say that > > I see > > > such clinging to mindfulness that has arisen or may arise in the > > future as > > > being a very big impediment to such practice. > > > > > > A:> How? It's the Four Foundations of Mindfulness > … > S: Pls explain your qu. Clinging is included in the Foundations as an > dhamma to be known, but it's not itself the path to be followed. It explains that mindfulness is to be cultivated, developed, and enlarged, especially a factor of enlightenment, and that mindfulness of certain nama and rupa (such as four elements) will see craving and clinging wane. Mindfulness is the objective of the Four Foundations of _Mindfulness_ :0) > Al, I've ruthlessly trimmed your content. If there's anything else you'd > like discussed, pls repost it. I'll be glad for any of your feedback and > further comments on anything I've written here. > > I'm also delighted to read your discussion with Kel (& others I think). > Pls keep it up for us all to learn from. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= Kel and I have gone to private e-mail. There was some overlap here with Q&A between you & I and between Kel & I. Will post if it goes deeper or longer than a few replies. Thanks Sarah, For being unbelievably patient with me as always, A.L. 40597 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 10:31am Subject: The Buddha and mass destruction of lives and The Dhamma Dear Dhamma Friends, In any era, in any life there hears at least one event of mass destruction of lives. Even in The Buddha time there were events. The Buddha is incomparable as He is the perfected one. Among many different qualities, 'karuna' is amazing. 'Arising of karuna or not' is not in connection with achieving liberation. His Buddhahood was actually the final result of 'the maha- karuna'. This maha-karuna led Him to fulfil the hardest things at the expence of unbearable sufferings. There used to say blood donated were much much more than maha-samuda or great oceans. Eyes donated were larger than great mountains when they were piled up. Once in His last life that is when He was a Buddha there came news that there was an event of mass destruction of lives. It was in 'Vesaalii'. He looked into the matter with special nanas and told Ananda that He would go to 'Vesaalii' where mass destruction of lives happened with the aim of prevention of further destruction of lives. Once Vesaalii was in disaster. The Buddha acted as a leader along with state officials in sorting out these mass destruction of lives. On another occasion, The Buddha foresaw that there were possibilities of a war and mass destruction of many lives. The Buddha personally helped people to be free from the war. The king Vitaddupa was extremely angry on a matter personally and that led him to declare a war on Sakya clan people. The king went for war for the first time. But in the midway there was The Great Buddha sitting under a tree. The king could not trapess and he approached The Buddha and The Buddha preached him to calm down. He stopped his thought of making war and went back. This happened up to 3 separate times and The Buddha, our Great teacher, the Possesser of the Great Karuna stopped the war up to 3 times. The problem was between the king Vitaddupa and relatives of The Buddha, all of whom were Sakya clan. As the matter happened 3 times even in the His presence, The Buddha looked into the matter and saw that 'niyama cannot be changed'. Once in an era long long long ago, these clan people were fisher men. They did have bad kamma of killing in mass. The results were coming right now and 3 times had been already attempted by The Buddha's power. But as niyama cannot be changed niyama is just going to take its own action. So even The Buddha could not stop that particular war among Sakya clan people and the king Vitaddupa and there had to happen mass destruction of lives. Maha-karuna was so great that even after passing away [mahaparinibbana] it was still working. In which way? The body of The Buddha was there in Kusinaarammana awaiting Venerable Mahakassapa. When the Venerable came and saw with his own eyes that the body of The Buddha was on the sweet wood sticks. Before his arrival bhikkhus tried to light to cremate the body of The Buddha. But everyone was unsuccessful and the fire cannot be created. Mahakassapa approached the body of The Buddha and gave homage to The Buddha. It is said that the feet of The Buddha came out and touched the forehead of Mahakassapa when he gave homage. It was on Sunday that auto-cremation happened. The karuna was there. There will be relics. But there was possibilities of war because of unjustice sharing of relics. There was a river and each side lived people the groups of whom were not friend but enemies. The autocremation happened right at the border of two countries and relics fell to both side equally. In this way the war was stopped. When The Buddha was alive He had to tame these two group not to fight each other. They were enemies because of 'river-water' which flowed between the two countries. There were several occasions that The Buddha Himself helped in the disasters. But helping could not go beyond niyamas. The best help that He left for all of us [todays living beings including disasters victims] was The Dhamma. The Dhamma. The Dhamma. The Dhamma. The Buddha was Perfected One. He was The Exalted One. He was Tathagata. He was Bhagava. He was Sammasambuddha. He was Sugata. All beings in all realms should give homage to The Buddha. But for The Buddha He does not have to worship anyone. But The Buddha worshipped The Dhamma. See 'Dhammapuujaamudra'. The Buddha left 'The Dhamma'. This is the best medicine. This is the best food. This is the best shelter. No rich man can supply 'food, shelter, medicine' for many beings for unlimited time. But 'The Dhamma' does. All karuna flows and this made billions of dollars. This has to continue. Yes, of course. This is a longterm process and a lot of money, resources, supports are needed to rehabilitate the area. If The Dhamma is grown inside of all, the rehabilitation process will not take very long. May 'The Dhamma' be the shelter, the food, the medicine for all [not only for the victims but for all beings]. Fire destroys the world including all kama world that is 11 kama sugati realms and 3 of 1st jhana rupa brahma realms. Water destroys the world up to 3 2nd jhana rupa brahma realms. December 26 was just a reminder. Tectonic plates, overlap, crack, shockwave etc etc are just scientific intellectualization. Wind destroys the world up to 3 3rd jhana rupa brahma realms. When the world has been destroyed for 7 times with fire, the 8th time is the turn of water. When the world has been destroyed for 7 times with water that is after 56 times destruction which was caused by the water there follow 7 times destruction by fire again (56 + 7 = 63). So the 64th turn is for the great wind to destroy the world. Now the water just gave a hint. It has the power to destroy the whole world. So do not be proud now and forever that 'we are lucky'. When the wind destroys the world all kama realms are destroyed. All rupa brahma realms are destroyed except 4th jhana rupa brahma realms. So what happen to those who die? Each is reborn in the realm just higher than their previous one. As the whole world is set in fire/water/wind there is no shelter and as soon as each is reborn they die again and this happen till they gain access to a stable realm. Let us say the world was destroyed by the wind. At that time all beings in lower realms including hell beings will be reborn in 4th jhana rupa brahma realms. After a while the earth is settled down slowly. Because of accumulative kama power those 4th jhana rupa brahmas who were previously from kama realms become craving to visit the world. And soon they reach the world and taste the worldly things and again they proliferate kama things and then the world has to begin. This water December 26 of 2004 might well be a forerunner. The Buddha left the medicine, the food, the shelter. It is The Dhamma. This Dhamma will help a large mass of lives as it always helps in any given era. May all beings stay with The Dhamma. With Unlimited and Great Metta, Htoo Naing 40598 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Teach Abhidhamma (Was: abhidhamma - - -... Hi Ken O and TG, When we see Abhidhamma in a text we have to be careful and look at the context. Evenso when we read: the Dhamma and the Vinaya. What is included in the word Dhamma? We read in M I, 133: that the Tipitaka can be classified as nine limbs, angas: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyaakarana, gaathaa etc. The Expositor p. 33 explains that the Abhdidhamma is included in Veyyaakarana. We have to study carefully the different classifications. Nina. op 05-01-2005 03:55 schreef TGrand458@a... op TGrand458@a...: > The so-called Abhidhamma that Sariputta taught was completely within the > bounds of the Suttas and did not resemble the Abhidhamma Pitaka as your own > posts > points out. Apples and Oranges. This is quite a stretch to support the > Abhidhamma Pitaka which itself has been stretched quite a bit in the > commentaries. 40599 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 10:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Availability of three suttas, bojjhangas. Hi Larry, You are very kind, thank you. But I want to study very gradually, not much typing. I let it depend on others' input. The subject is important, and the Co I have in Thai are very good. Any of these suttas you or Tep want to go into specifically? Nina. op 05-01-2005 01:26 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I'm interested in this project also. If I could help out with the typing > let me know. 40600 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 11:01am Subject: Dhamma Thread (216) Dear Dhamma Friends, In panca-dvara vithi vara or 'the turn of 5-sense-door processing cittas' there arise a rupa which serves as ati-mahantarammana or as a clear object. Mahanta means 'great'. Ati means 'excessive'. When this very great or very clear object rupa arise, 3 bhavanga cittas or life- continuing consciousness have to pass away before any vithi citta can arise. So the rupa has only 14 moments of life to serve as the arammana or the object for vithi cittas. These 14 moments are taken up one after another by the following cittas one after another. 1.B/A[Atita bhavanga citta] 2.B/C[bhavanga Calana citta] 3.B/U[bhavanga Uppaccheda citta] Vithi cittas that arise one after another are 4.panca-dvara-avajjana citta [5-door-adverting consciousness] 5.panca-vinnana citta [5-sense-consciousness ] 6.sampaticchana citta [receiving consciousness] 7.santirana citta [investigating consciousness] 8.votthapana citta [determining consciousness] 9. 1st javana citta [mental impulsion consciousness] 10.2nd javana citta [ ,, ] 11.3rd javana citta [ ,, ] 12.4th javana citta [ ,, ] 13.5th javana citta [ ,, ] 14.6th javana citta [ ,, ] 15.7th javana citta [ ,, ] Here there left 2 moments for vithi cittas to arise. Javana cittas cannot arise more than 7 times in a vithi vara or in a consciousness process. So in those 2 places, pancadvaravajjana cannot take place. So do other vithi cittas like panca-vinnana cittas, sampaticchana, santirana, and votthapana cittas. But there are 11 vipaka cittas who can perform the function of vithi cittas. These vipaka cittas are called tadarammana cittas. Tada means 'the' 'then' 'after'. Arammana means 'object'. Tadarammana means 'the object that left after' or 'retained object'. In panca-dvara vithi vara a rupa serves an arammana or an object. That object is taken up by each and every vithi citta in the whole process of vithi vara. When other vithi cittas have tasted what the object is like, tadarammana cittas have to retain the object and they deeply feel or deeply taste or deeply recognize or deeply apperceive the object. Some translators translate this 'tadarammana citta' as 'registration consciousness'. This might well be right. Because tadarammana cittas do have sanna and they register the object. But as all other cittas also have sanna each also registers the object concern. Tada means 'after' 'the' 'then'. So, I personally think that tadarammana citta is more in favour of translation as 'retention consciousness' or 'retaining consciousness'. As there is no other vithi citta and bhavana cittas cannot still arise these 2 cittas have to maintain and retain the object for 2 moments. But as they both are vipaka citta, they do not bear any future kamma. They are just the resultant consciousness. That is why they deeply feel, taste, realize, apperveice deeply. 16.1st tadarammana citta [retaining consciousness] 17.2nd tadarammana citta [ ,, ] At the end of this period both 2nd tadarammana citta and the object rupa pass away. This is ati-mahantarammana or very clear object and arising of vithi cittas at that ati-mahantarammana. If the object is rupa-arammana or visual object panca-vinnana citta is cakkhu-vinnana citta. If sadda-arammana or sound, sotavinnana citta, if gandha-arammana or smell, ghanavinnana citta, if rasa- arammana or taste, jivhavinnana citta, and if photthabba-arammana or touch-object, kayavinnana citta arises after panca-dvara-avajjana citta or 5-sense-door-adverting consciousness. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40601 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 11:15am Subject: Re: Concepts and Questions Dear TG, Interesting questions. Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TG wrote: Hi All Few questions... #1 Did the Buddha ever say "concepts don't exist" or discuss thier ontological irrelevence in any manner? (He did say..."In whatever way it is conceived, the fact is ever other than that." This shows concepts miss the mark in describing "non-relative truths." But doesn't say concepts aren't real.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But concepts are not ultimate realilty. There are many realities. Science progressively changes many realities. They define 'this' as 'that' and that becomes a reality. At another time 'that reality' is no more real and there has to arise another reality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TG wrote: #2 Does anyone believe it is possible to attain enlightenment without using concepts as a "stepping stone" for that attainment? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is not a belief. But real. Before attainment or after attainment or at any time, concepts do not involve as an ultimate reality. Nibbana is attained not by concept but by reality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TG wrote: #3 If so I'd be interested in how that's done? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: It is not strange that someone would be interested in how nibbana is attined 'without pannatti'. But in all attainments 'pannatti' does not involve as an ultimate reality. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TG wrote: #4 If not, I'd be interested in how "non-existent states" can lay a "real foundation" for attaining enlightenment? In other words, how does something that doesn't exist have causal impact? TG ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This question is much much more interesting. Actually 'real foundation' is not pannatti but paramattha dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing 40602 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 11:27am Subject: Re: Htoo- I'm seeing DTs in my dreams! Dear Sarah, Thanks for your support. As it is clear I think no reply is needed. I will try to meet Kel. With much respect, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Htoo, > > You've written a whole series of excellent Dhamma Thread (DT) posts since > we last chatted. Sometimes I get behind, but I do follow and appreciate > them a lot as you know. > > I'm going to use short-hand for all these comments/qus which may only make > sense to you. > ..... > DT185 #40338 Tadarammana – yes, I follow your posts ..snip..and have a few to read later, but you know me – I'm always behind with > comments). > > Metta and anumodana. Please meet Kel, also from Burma and with keen > Abhidhamma knowledge. and interest to help us out here. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======= 40603 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 11:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Dear Joop, op 05-01-2005 14:25 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: > In fact my doubt is not about the Dhamma itself but about the > question if studying the details of the Abhidhamma is relevant to me > on this moment. N: We all have different accumulations, that is why we react differently. J: Especially the lack of doubt by you and some other > dsg-contribuants gives me the most problems. Stating the complex > details of Abhidhamma without ever explaining how you get this > information, without any emperical reference, does not give me > inspiration, is only scholastic. N: I have to think this over and discuss with Lodewijk. It is understandable that you get such an impression. It would be helpful if you could give one concrete example. I could then work on that. J: - You said: "Dhamma as meditation. Considering and beginning to be > aware of nama and rupa". > I had understood, and sometimes experienced, that this awareness (the > first nana, Analytical Knowledge of Body and Mind (nama-rupa- > pariccheda-ñana) is a result, a output of insight-meditation. But if > I understand you well you state it is a inpute, is that correct? N: I stress: beginning to be aware. That is, we learn about seeing and we verify this when seeing now. That is a beginning, but certainly not insight knowledge. We hear about hardness experienced through touch, but there is touching many times in a day. Sometimes there is just a moment that we begin to verify this. J: - You proposed (to Tep): "Recently I have been reflecting on > beginners and progress and how to see > this. If you are interested I may write about this. Perhaps a > seemingly lack of progress could make some friends here discouraged." > Maybe it is to me, if you understand that's not "lack of progress" > but "lack of inspiration" that is my problem. N: I keep your good points in mind. Meanwhile you could read suttas and draw inspiration from these. I just read in the Fire sutta that there is a different time for each state of mind or mood. Sati, as I wrote before, is said to be suitable for all occasions. Like the seasoning salt. Your remarks give me inspiration!!! The word sluggish is used, but that means without energy or enthusiasm. Then it is the wrong season to cultivate the limb of wisdom (bojjhanga or factor of enlightenment) that is tranquillity, concentration, equanimity. But the right time to cultivate investigation of dhamma, energy and enthusiasm. It seems, when you lack inspiration, that you have to study Abhidhamma. But it depends in what way. Not as a scholarly book study. I have an idea. Phil has on line the Roots of Good and Evil, we can give you the link. http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/rootsofgoodandevilC.html You could begin and share what you read, little by little. It is about daily life. You can verify it. It has many excellent suttas. It is helpful for our sila and that means for our behaviour in society. The social aspect you like to stress! Like Lodewijk. Now, these last minutes I have been talking about Abhidhamma, but you may not have noticed it. Abhidhamma in disguise. I am very curious to know what you think of this book. Nina. Nina. 40604 From: Philip Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 0:11pm Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence Hi Christine, and all > Strange, isn't it ... how enthusiam for the Dhamma wafts and > wanes ... ? I haven't read everyone's response, so sorry for any redundancy. I'm interested in this issue because I am also aware of the way interest rises and falls due to conditions. I have talked a few times on and off list about how I was frustrated by having an all consuming interest in Dhamma that made it impossible to concentrate on my other interests. I was able to see that this was beyond my control and instead of trying to supress it I should let it ride its course - and now it seems it has, and a maintainable balance has come about. Still keenly interested, but able to think about other things as well. But aware that the all-consuming interest could re-arise at any time. I can't control it. I would say that the insights and encouragements you've gained from the Buddha's teaching have *definitely* conditioned the re-arising of more of the same. Well, you know that already, I'm sure. So yes, patience. Someone has already mentionned this, I'm sure, but as we know the Buddha was assailed by Mara in various forms, from the horrific to the sensually enticing. I'm sure Mara also appeared as a doubt-inducing drag at times as well! I remember when you posted after returning from India about your discouragement I wondered if it might be related to your work. You work day in day out in close association with people who are suffering very deeply from specific and identifiable causes (if I'm not mistaken.) I wonder if this conditions frustration in you at times, because as we know Dhamma's deep benefits accrue in the space of lifetimes rather than in the short term, and it's in the short term that the people you see day in day out need relief from their suffering. Also, we know that according to the Buddha's teaching, people are suffering in this lifetime due to kamma. It seems terrible to say that someone was born to abusive parents due to kamma, but we know that this is the case. So again there is a conflict between conventional understanding of such issues, and Dhamma understanding, which might be doubt inducing. In any case, hang in there, Christine. As I said above, the Dhamma "on" periods will have conditioned more of the same. Patience is one of the Buddha perfections, as we know. Metta, Phil 40605 From: Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 7:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Htoo Your answers show that I didn't make myself clear enough in my questioning. I am not talking about using concepts in the final stages of enlightenment. I am talking about going to school. Learning language. Being exposed to ideas. Searching for meaning. Finding the Buddha's teachings. Studying those teachings. Contemplating those teachings. I am talking about these things, these largely conceptual things, as being a foundation for what may eventually be an enlightenment that overcomes or transcends concepts. This is what I am asking about. If concepts are able to "move the mind" toward enlightenment, or anything for that matter, how so are they not real? I'll repeat the questions... Hi All Few questions... #1 Did the Buddha ever say "concepts don't exist" or discuss thier ontological irrelevence in any manner? (He did say..."In whatever way it is conceived, the fact is ever other than that." This shows concepts miss the mark in describing "non-relative truths." But doesn't say concepts aren't real.) #2 Does anyone believe it is possible to attain enlightenment without using concepts as a "stepping stone" for that attainment? #3 If so I'd be interested in how that's done? #4 If not, I'd be interested in how "non-existent states" can lay a "real foundation" for attaining enlightenment? In other words, how does something that doesn't exist have causal impact? TG In a message dated 1/5/2005 11:19:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: #2 Does anyone believe it is possible to attain enlightenment without using concepts as a "stepping stone" for that attainment? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: This is not a belief. But real. Before attainment or after attainment or at any time, concepts do not involve as an ultimate reality. Nibbana is attained not by concept but by reality. 40606 From: Philip Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 0:41pm Subject: Non-hatred, non-greed and non-delusion (from Atthasalini) Hello all As Nina just mentionned, the book " The Roots of Good and Evil" is very good. One of the interesting passages that caught my eye was from the Atthasalini (commentary to the Dhammasangani of the Abhidhamma Pitaka.) It considers the nature of the wholesome roots. There is a lot of it, so I will only pull a few that have caught my interest especially. "Through non-greed (alobha) one does not overrate (an attractive object) as the lustful person does. Through non-hatred (adosa) one does not underrate or deprecate (an unattractive or disagreeable object) as the hater does." What a simple but immensely helpful teaching this has been for me recently. We read in so many suttas about not being "taken in" by objects, not "taking the lure" of the objects that arise through the six doors. And how wise attention frees us from doing so. In a more conventional way, just checking on whether one isn't overrating something is so helpful. Or exaggerating something. With even basic understanding of the three characteristics I have begun to see how often I overrate or underrate/deprecate things. "With non-greed one does nat have suffering though separation from the beloved. WIth non-hatred one does not having suffering through association with the unbeloved." Again, so simple but so helpful to reflect on and verify in daily life. And re the dynamic between the wholesome roots and the three characteristics: "Through non-greed one will understand impermanence; for a greedy man, in his longing for enjoyment, will not see impermanence of transitory phenomena. Through non-hatred, one will understand suffering; for one inclined to non-hate, in comprehending the grounds of annoyance discarded by him, sees phenomena as suffering. Through non-delusion (amoha) one will understand not-self; for one who is undeluded is skilled in grasping the nature of reality, and he knows that the five aggregates are without an internal controller. Just as the undersanding of impermanence, etc. is effected by non- greed, etc., so are also non-greed, etc., produced by the understanding of impermanence,etc. Through the understanding of impermanence arises non-greed; through the understanding of suffering arises non-hatred etc." Very interesting. I posted about a month back about how it seems to me that metta seems to arise naturally in proportion to any understanding of the First Noble Truth that I have. On days on which I have reflected deeply (albeit in a shallow, intellectual way) on the First and Second Noble Truths, it seems that a lot of metta arises during the day. How can we not experience non-hatred when we have reflected on the many ways people suffer due to their frail humanity with all its charmingly pathetic cravings and clingings? Maybe the dukkha that is one of the three characteristics is not quite the same dukkha that is the First Noble Truth, but I still find this dynamic very interesting. Metta, Phil 40607 From: Egbert Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 1:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing Hi Howard and all, Thanks for making your position clear. I'm quite happy to leave it at that. Perhaps others who are more firmly fond of the view of one sensation at a time might like to cast their eyes over the following. It seems uncontroversial, from a third-party perspective, that a one- celled organism, lets say Andy the Amoeba, reacts to stimuli in his environment. It would also seem uncontroversial that Agnes the Amoeba reacts to stimuli at the same time, while in the close surround of Andy. That would be parallel sensing. Why would there be insistence that in the case of Derek the Diploid (two-celled) there could only be one sensation at a time? Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > In a message dated 1/5/05 3:23:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, > hhofman@t... writes: > > > HH >Am I right in reading you as saying that at a most basic level > > there cannot be a concurrent/parallel sensing? Are you saying that > > all sensing is serial ie one basic sensation at a time? > > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > That is what I understand the Buddhist belief to be, and I suspect > that it is correct. I don't, however, know it to be correct, and parallel sensing > wouldn't bother me in the slightest. However it is, well, so it is. > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > > (I accept that attention is serial in nature) > > > > > ===================== > With metta, > Howard 40608 From: Matthew Miller Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 10:30am Subject: Re: Seeing & Hearing Howard wrote: > consciousness flits from one sense door to another, > in a kind of time-share mode, and each conscious > flashing at a sense door goes by very rapidly. Sound is a vibration. It is nothing more than a frequency and amplitude of pressure changes which occur in time. To properly perceive sound, a receiver has to be present with the vibration for a duration of time (at least several entire wave cycles). If the receiver were "flitting" and "flashing" about in nanoseconds, how could it possibly perceive sound? It would be like trying to tap to the beat of a song, while at the same multi-tasking and rushing off to do other things (e.g. seeing, smelling, sankharic fabricating) between each beat. How could this be done and correctly perceive the beat/sound? Matthew 40609 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 0:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Dear James, The previous posts were about whether the belief in gods is a "wrong view" -- wrong in the sense of the "Right View" of the 8-fold path and wrong in the sense it being false (not truth). The type of god was not the issue. The earlier posts were exploring the fact that the Buddha talked about gods to the "S" (once- and non- returners), and did they all really have a false view. You posted "yes" it was a false view. I just want to prove you wrong. I tried to argue that the Buddha also seemed to believe gods existed. Therefore, from a Buddhist perspective, it is not a lie (i.e., that the gods exist). Also I tried to argue that such a belief is not contradictory to the 4-noble truths, therefore it is not contradicting the Right View. I tried to argue that to believe the gods can control your suffering is a wrong view, not whether they existed or not. Charles ----- Original Message ----- From: buddhatrue To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 7:20 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: clinging to self with conceit, Pali.. Friend Charles, Charles: Do you believe the "only" goal of the Buddha was to find the way(s) by which suffering would be brought to and end? James: Yes. Charles: Do you believe the Buddha found that way(s) and documented (dictated) it in hisDharma (i.e., sutras and vinya)? James: Yes. Charles: If so then please look at the sutras and vinya for the answer. James: The answer to what? <....> 40610 From: Charles DaCosta Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 0:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions I have to agree, very interesting. ----- Original Message ----- From: htootintnaing To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 8:15 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Dear TG, Interesting questions. Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TG wrote: Hi All Few questions... #1 Did the Buddha ever say "concepts don't exist" or discuss thier ontological irrelevence in any manner? (He did say..."In whatever way it is conceived, the fact is ever other than that." This shows concepts miss the mark in describing "non-relative truths." But doesn't say concepts aren't real.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: But concepts are not ultimate realilty. There are many realities. Science progressively changes many realities. They define 'this' as 'that' and that becomes a reality. At another time 'that reality' is no more real and there has to arise another reality. <....> 40611 From: Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 9:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing Hi, Matthew - In a message dated 1/5/05 4:48:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, bupleurum@y... writes: > Howard wrote: > >consciousness flits from one sense door to another, > >in a kind of time-share mode, and each conscious > >flashing at a sense door goes by very rapidly. > > Sound is a vibration. It is nothing more than a frequency and > amplitude of pressure changes which occur in time. To properly > perceive sound, a receiver has to be present with the vibration for a > duration of time (at least several entire wave cycles). If the > receiver were "flitting" and "flashing" about in nanoseconds, how > could it possibly perceive sound? It would be like trying to tap to > the beat of a song, while at the same multi-tasking and rushing off > to do other things (e.g. seeing, smelling, sankharic fabricating) > between each beat. How could this be done and correctly perceive the > beat/sound? > > Matthew > ========================== Matthew, our perspectives are completely different. Yours is the "objective physical world of matter and energy" story of physics, and mine is the phenomenological "world of experience". Our base assumptions are radically different, sufficently different to make it impossible for me to reply properly to your question. In any case, what I *can* say is that I don't believe I committed myself to a particular "flitting speed"! And moreover, while I suspect that there is not simultaneous multi-sense-door experiencing, I don't insist on that, nor do I think it is particularly important as regards the goal of the Dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40612 From: Egbert Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 2:11pm Subject: Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG, Good questions!!! > Hi All > > Few questions... > > #1 Did the Buddha ever say "concepts don't exist" or discuss thier > ontological irrelevence in any manner? (He did say..."In whatever way it is > conceived, the fact is ever other than that." This shows concepts miss the mark in > describing "non-relative truths." But doesn't say concepts aren't real.) I don't think the Buddha ever said "concepts don't exist". I think the Suttas imply that the meanings attributed to the sensed bear no necessary relation to the sensed. Concept and meaning are interchangeable. People (minds) live in their meanings, and while the meanings people (minds) live in are real enough, these meanings are unrelated to what is actually happening. > > #2 Does anyone believe it is possible to attain enlightenment without using concepts as a "stepping stone" for that attainment? Yeah, I believe, brother :-) > > #3 If so I'd be interested in how that's done? I believe the unenlightened state is a learnt state. It is acquired through the teaching of what has been learned, which has been acquired by teaching what has been learnt, on and on and on. I think enlightenment requires only willingness to let go of meaningless meanings. > > #4 If not, I'd be interested in how "non-existent states" can lay a "real > foundation" for attaining enlightenment? In other words, how does something > that doesn't exist have causal impact? Nicely put. A split mind selects to see only what verifies the premise that split it in the first place. I'd love to find that sutta again that says that where there is no I there is no kamma. Kind Regards Herman > > TG > 40613 From: Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 9:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/5/05 3:46:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > In other words, how does something > that doesn't exist have causal impact? > ======================= Were you never emotionally moved by what happened to characters in a book or film? The characters and their lives and the events that occurred in their lives are all nonexistent, isn't that so? Yet "they" have causal impact. Actually, "they" do not, but our tentative willing acceptance of "them" as existents does. In the case of everyday encounters with pa~n~natti, where the acceptance is not a willful one, but is automatic and a matter of genuine belief, the causal impact is even greater. Another example is that of dreams. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40614 From: Egbert Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 3:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing Hi Howard and Matthew, I agree with both of you, on diferent matters. I agree with Howard that scientific enterprise, the modelling of how things work, is not particularly important as regards the goal of the Dhamma. But I also think that if the activity is going to be scientific enterprise, be that a la Abhidhamma or 21st century scientific technique, you may as well develop a model that mimics reality as closely as possible. Of course it would help to remember that one is dealing with a model only and that the characteristics of a model have nothing to do with the reality they purport to model. But that's another story...... Kind Regards Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Matthew - > > In a message dated 1/5/05 4:48:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, > bupleurum@y... writes: > > > Howard wrote: > > >consciousness flits from one sense door to another, > > >in a kind of time-share mode, and each conscious > > >flashing at a sense door goes by very rapidly. > > > > Sound is a vibration. It is nothing more than a frequency and > > amplitude of pressure changes which occur in time. To properly > > perceive sound, a receiver has to be present with the vibration for a > > duration of time (at least several entire wave cycles). If the > > receiver were "flitting" and "flashing" about in nanoseconds, how > > could it possibly perceive sound? It would be like trying to tap to > > the beat of a song, while at the same multi-tasking and rushing off > > to do other things (e.g. seeing, smelling, sankharic fabricating) > > between each beat. How could this be done and correctly perceive the > > beat/sound? > > > > Matthew > > > ========================== > Matthew, our perspectives are completely different. Yours is the > "objective physical world of matter and energy" story of physics, and mine is the > phenomenological "world of experience". Our base assumptions are radically > different, sufficently different to make it impossible for me to reply properly to > your question. > In any case, what I *can* say is that I don't believe I committed > myself to a particular "flitting speed"! And moreover, while I suspect that there > is not simultaneous multi-sense-door experiencing, I don't insist on that, nor > do I think it is particularly important as regards the goal of the Dhamma. > > With metta, > Howard > 40615 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 3:24pm Subject: Re: Apologies Friend Sarah, Sarah: We're taling about views relating to Truths, to an understanding of Dhamma. James: Yeah. Sarah: don't you think the Buddha was teaching universal truths for all time periods? James: In the Brahmajala Sutta, no I don't. I think he was being very specific to his time period. With the propensity of the human mind to create wrong views, I think it would be impossible for the Buddha to enumerate all of them. Sarah: Lots of detail in the commentary BB has translated. Lots of Q and A on the views and classifications too. At the end of one section, the comy gives: James: I don't care what the commentary has to say about this matter. I don't agree with the commentary (*I have more to say about this at the end). Sarah: "It is on these sixty-two grounds, bhikkhus…….past…future…… all of them do so on these sixty-two grounds, or on a certain one of them. OUTSIDE OF THESE THERE IS NONE." James: Now Sarah, why do you feel it necessary to misquote the Buddha? Your ellipses make it appear as if the Buddha is saying that these have been the wrong views of the past and future, and that is not what he is saying. Here is the original quote: "These are the sixty-two ways in which those ascetics and Brahmins who are speculators about the past, the future, or both, put forward views about these. There is no other way. " Again, the Buddha isn't talking about all wrong views or even the wrong views of all times. He is being very specific to the speculative views put forth by ascetics and Brahmins; he is also being specific to the ascetics and Brahmins of his time period. He wasn't trying to codify all wrong views for all times. That would be an impossible task. *I am going to ramble a little bit now, like Phil does (and I usually enjoy) ;-)). I first read your post when a friend was over at my apartment and I started to put my mind to how I was going to reply. I put my mind as to why you believe the way you do. As usual, my mind went to Buddhaghosa. I was thinking very deeply about Buddhaghosa when my friend asked me why I was so sad; he could read it on my face. I tried to tell him to forget it but he kept pushing, so I explained to him all about Buddhaghosa-how I read with my psychic ability that Buddhaghosa invented and changed things in the commentaries to fit personal ideas and agendas (as I have explained before in DSG). Since I have demonstrated my psychic ability on numerous occasions to my friend (and many of his friends) he believed what I had to say and told me, "Well, that will be Buddhaghosa's bad karma. You don't have to worry about it." (he is Muslim by birth, but a `secret' Buddhist). You know, he is right. I let too many things bother me that shouldn't. This will be my last post on this subject because it involves Buddhaghosa- and that is a no-win situation. However, let me end with one last quote from Concept and Reality by Bhikkhu Nanananda, "Buddhaghosa has rightly recognized the triune nature of papanca, but the validity of his definition of ditthi is rather doubtful for reasons we have stated earlier." Pg. 122 Metta, James Ps. If you or anyone would like the check the validity of what I have written here, feel free to write to my friend at memoelgamed@y... 40616 From: Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 4:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Howard: "The sensation *is* rupa." Hi Howard, You said the sensation is rupa and sense consciousness is presence. One problem with this is there is the same presence in every door. How can this presence be eye consciousness? Larry 40617 From: Tep Sastri Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 4:28pm Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote (message # 405820: > Dear Tep and Chris, > This is a good topic. > op 04-01-2005 21:26 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > Before starting to write this mail, I read your message twice. A question > > came to my mind about what conditions (paccaya) we must keep > > throughout each day such that "great interest, strong enthusiam, > > confidence, contentment in the practice" can be maintained. N: > I like the emphasis on Dhamma discussions here as a means to solve doubts. More understanding does condition confidence, enthusiasm. T: I also have conviction in Dhamma discussions, Nina. N: > I did not see the samadhi nimitta, but this can be included, for > example by way of a meditation for every occasion, > like the Buddha's excellent qualities. > Even while working or living in a house crowded with children. > But I am thinking foremost of Dhamma as meditation. > Considering and beginning to be aware of nama and rupa. This solves doubts even at a beginning stage. T: A lower level of samadhi nimitta may simply mean the mental state of a person who listens with strong attention to (or read about) a Dhamma discussion (on the suttas or the Abhidhamma), then saddha and piti arise. With such mental state calm (passaddhi) and concentration(samadhi) are near, if at the same time the five hindrances are not present. N: > Recently I have been reflecting on beginners and progress and how to see this. > If you are interested I may write about this. Perhaps a seemingly lack of progress > could make some friends here discouraged. What do you think, Tep? T: Please do write about your experience in the Dhamma and how you have steadily made progress over the years, including how the progress is measured. Such a writing will definitely be a good contribution to DSG. My understanding is that steady Dhamma progress (e.g. two steps up, only one step down; or, several steps up and only a few steps down) only comes after we have clearly seen the drawbacks of the five aggregates. N: I like very much what Howard and TG wrote. T: Could you elaborate a little bit on that? Kindest regards, Tep ====== 40618 From: Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 11:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/5/2005 3:03:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Were you never emotionally moved by what happened to characters in a book or film? The characters and their lives and the events that occurred in their lives are all nonexistent, isn't that so? Yet "they" have causal impact. Actually, "they" do not, but our tentative willing acceptance of "them" as existents does. In the case of everyday encounters with pa~n~natti, where the acceptance is not a willful one, but is automatic and a matter of genuine belief, the causal impact is even greater. Another example is that of dreams. With metta, Howard Hi Howard I'm not sure what point you mean to be making. It seems as if you mean to disagree with me but your point only reinforces my position. I.E., that concepts condition other states. In your film analogy, the experience of light and sounds are the "paramattha dhammas." The conceptual experiences are the ones that generate the emotions that you refer to. In the book part of your analogy, its just pure concepts plus the light, paper, and ink, in order to read the book that generate reactions. Concepts are needed to understand the Dhamma (like training wheels) at least until one can learn to "balance" without them. Although it is possible to learn how to ride a bike without training wheels, I don't think it is possible to learn Dhamma without concepts. TG 40619 From: Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Availability of three suttas, bojjhangas. Nina: "Any of these suttas you or Tep want to go into specifically? " Hi Nina, I haven't looked into it but it looks like an interesting topic. Mostly I am interested in what is condusive to the arising of each bojjhanga. And of course an elaboration of what each bojjhanga is. Larry 40620 From: Tep Sastri Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 5:21pm Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Teach Abhidhamma (Was: abhidhamma - - - To ... Hi Ken O. (& Suan, Howard, Nina), - --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Ken O wrote: > Hi Tep, Suan and Howard > > I have before quoted > > MN 32, Mahaagosinga Sutta para 8 > <<"Here friend Sariputta, two bhikkhus engage in a talks on the > Higher Dhamma* and they questions each other, and each being > questioned by the other answers without foundering, and their talk > rolls on in accordance with the Dhamma. That kind of bhikkhu could > illuminate this Gosinga Saala-tree Wood.">> > Then later in the same sutta we see Buddha approve of B. Moggallana. > > > * - the Higher Dhamma (translated from the pali word- > abhidhammakatham)- B Bodhi personal notes. < the word cannot refer to the Pitaka of that name - obviously the > produce of a phase and Buddhist thought later than the Nikayas - it > > Ken O > I am sorry for my failure to see your message #40567 sooner, and that's why I'm replying it now. Please allow me to communicate to you most directly via questions. I'd appreciate your response as soon as you conveniently can. Thank you much. 1) Does the term "higher dhamma" only mean "abhidhamma" in MN 32? Can it be something else? 2) Many suttas (the Buddha's teachings or discourses) end with words like the following: "Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with the body, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' " [SN XXII.59, Anatta-lakkhana Sutta] If the Abhidhamma is really "higher Dhamma", why didn't the Buddha tell His disciples to seek the "abhidhammakatham" after their listening to the suttas such as the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta? The words "full release" and "there is nothing further for this world" imply that the discourse content is adequate, there is nothing higher. Don't you think so? Warm regards, Tep ======= 40621 From: Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 2:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/5/05 7:15:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "The sensation *is* rupa." > > Hi Howard, > > You said the sensation is rupa and sense consciousness is presence. One > problem with this is there is the same presence in every door. How can > this presence be eye consciousness? > ---------------------------------------- Howard: No problem. Experiential presence of visual object is eye consciousness. Presence of auditory object is ear consciousness. See the sutta in which the Buddha described different sorts of fire depending on what is burning. He used that, as I recall, exactly to distinguish the different sorts of sense consciousness. ----------------------------------------- > > Larry > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40622 From: Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 2:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/5/05 7:37:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > I'm not sure what point you mean to be making. It seems as if you mean to > disagree with me but your point only reinforces my position. I.E., that > concepts condition other states. In your film analogy, the experience of > light and > sounds are the "paramattha dhammas." The conceptual experiences are the > ones > that generate the emotions that you refer to. In the book part of your > analogy, its just pure concepts plus the light, paper, and ink, in order to > read the > book that generate reactions. > -------------------------------------- Howard: My point was that there seem to be things that have effects, but those things don't exist, and the effects are actually due to other things that really do exist. When a heterosexual male "falls in love" with a girl in his dream, one might say that the girl caused an emotional response. But that is really just a way of speaking. It is a host of mental functions that constitutes the cause. There is no dream girl. And there is no single mental dhamma that is the dream-girl-idea. Getting away from analogies, and talking instead about the actual matter under discussion: We believe that my watering the lawn made the grass grow. Now all of the alleged entities involved - me, the water, the lawn, the applying of the former to the latter, grass, and growing are all concepts. None of these things truly exists. But there is a host of experiential realities upon which these concepts are imputed, complex relations of conditionality do hold among these dhammas, and a shorthand expression this is the statement that watering the lawn makes the grass grow. ---------------------------------------------- > > Concepts are needed to understand the Dhamma (like training wheels) at least > > until one can learn to "balance" without them. Although it is possible to > learn how to ride a bike without training wheels, I don't think it is > possible to > learn Dhamma without concepts. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Neither do I. On that we agree. ------------------------------------------------ > > TG > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40623 From: Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 7:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Hi Howard, What's the difference between presence of hardness and sensation of hardness? These are just two words for the same experience. By positing a difference between sensation and consciousness aren't you asserting that there is an experiencable external object (external to consciousness)? If so, what experiences this object? If consciousness is different from sensation it can't be the experience of sensation. Is sensation a non-conscious experience? Larry 40624 From: Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 2:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi Howard In a message dated 1/5/2005 7:24:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: Howard: My point was that there seem to be things that have effects, but those things don't exist, and the effects are actually due to other things that really do exist. When a heterosexual male "falls in love" with a girl in his dream, one might say that the girl caused an emotional response. But that is really just a way of speaking. It is a host of mental functions that constitutes the cause. There is no dream girl. And there is no single mental dhamma that is the dream-girl-idea. Getting away from analogies, and talking instead about the actual matter under discussion: We believe that my watering the lawn made the grass grow. Now all of the alleged entities involved - me, the water, the lawn, the applying of the former to the latter, grass, and growing are all concepts. None of these things truly exists. But there is a host of experiential realities upon which these concepts are imputed, complex relations of conditionality do hold among these dhammas, and a shorthand expression this is the statement that watering the lawn makes the grass grow. ---------------------------------------------- TG: You seem to be arguing "concepts" from the viewpoint of what you at least use to call "the 'referent' of concepts." I thought that was a way of viewing concepts that you didn't agree with? Not a big deal because you agreed with me below and that was my main point of interest in this topic. :-) > > Concepts are needed to understand the Dhamma (like training wheels) at least > > until one can learn to "balance" without them. Although it is possible to > learn how to ride a bike without training wheels, I don't think it is > possible to > learn Dhamma without concepts. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Neither do I. On that we agree. ------------------------------------------------ > > TG > > ========================= With metta, Howard TG 40625 From: Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 4:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/5/05 10:43:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > What's the difference between presence of hardness and sensation of > hardness? These are just two words for the same experience. ---------------------------------------- Howard: No. Here we are running into language problems. If by "the sensation of hardness" you mean "the awareness of hardness", then the presence of hardness and the sensation of hardness are the same. But when I use the expression "the sensation of hardness", I mean "the sensation which is hardness". Bodily sensations such as hardness, pains, itches, etc are rupas. The experiential *presence* of any one of them is the consciousness of it, and that is different from the sensation itself. The two go together, of course, always. There is never an itch that is not felt, and there is never the awareness of an itch without the itch. ---------------------------------------------- > > By positing a difference between sensation and consciousness aren't you > asserting that there is an experiencable external object (external to > consciousness)? > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: External to it? No. Independent of it? No. But different from it? Yes. It seems to me that you understand by 'rupa' something in a material "external world". I mean no such thing. For me a rupa is a sensation: bodily, visual, auditory, tactile, or olfactory. Any one of these, when it arises, arises as an experiential object. Its experiential presence - and "experiential" is redundant, for that is the only sort of presence a sensation has - is the consciousness of that rupa. ----------------------------------------------- If so, what experiences this object? If consciousness is> > different from sensation it can't be the experience of sensation. Is > sensation a non-conscious experience? > > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Hardness is a sensation, its experiential presence is consciousness of that hardness. They are distinguishable but inseparable. Similarly, the outside and inside of a box are not the same, but there is never one without the other. They are distinguishable but inseparable. Consciousness of an arammana is the mere presence of that arammana. Nothing more. Seeing a sight (i.e., visual consciousness) is just the experiential presence of the sight, and that is different from the sight itself. This is "consciousness" in the sense that is untainted by atta-view. Perhaps you are thinking of consciousness as an operation of a knowing subject, or as, itself, a "knower". That goes too far; that is the vi~n~nana that ceases in the process of dependent cessation. That is consciousness-infected-by-sense-of-self. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40626 From: Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/5/05 11:00:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > TG: You seem to be arguing "concepts" from the viewpoint of what you at > least use to call "the 'referent' of concepts." I thought that was a way of > > viewing concepts that you didn't agree with? Not a big deal because you > agreed > with me below and that was my main point of interest in this topic. :-) ======================== Yes, you are right. I have come to believe that most of what we think are ideas of ours are not single namadhammas (if that is legit Pali! ;-), but are complex sequences of namas, and, even then, not precisely delimitable. So, with these already being so vague, it doesn't hurt all that much to smear the language even further! ;-) I think what is the clearest language use on this subject may be to talk about conventional objects such as trees, tables, and onion fields as being "concept-only". By this I mean that there really do not exist such objects, but there are complex thought processes which serve as basis for adopting, by an act of reification, the convention in thought and speech of such objects. It is those truly non-existent, merely conventional objects, those imagined, concept-only fictions, that are called "pa~n~natti". In other words, pa~n~natti are actually illusions, but illusions based on complex mental processes the elements of which are not illusions. ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40627 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 11:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies Friend James, All my quotes here are from B.Bodhi’s translation of the Brahmajala Sutta* only (i.e no commentary notes!). --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: In the Brahmajala Sutta, no I don't. I think he was being > very specific to his time period. With the propensity of the human > mind to create wrong views, I think it would be impossible for the > Buddha to enumerate all of them. …. S: “These are those dhammas, bhikkhus, that are deep, difficult to se, difficult to understand, peaceful, and sublime, beyond the sphere of reasoning, subtle, comprehensible only to the wise, which the Tathagata, having realized for himself with direct knowledge, propounds to others; and it is concerning these that those who would rightly praise the Tathagata in accordance with reality would speak.” <…> “…’Whatever sizeable creatures there are in this pool, all are trapped within this net, trapped and contained in this very net’…….” … >Sarah: >>“’It is on these sixty-two grounds, bhikkhus…….past…future…… >> all of them do so on these sixty-two grounds, or on a certain one of >> them. OUTSIDE OF THESE THERE IS NONE." …. > James: Now Sarah, why do you feel it necessary to misquote the > Buddha? …. S: There is no misquote. Much of it was repetition of the earlier passage and I had made it clear they were my caps. Here is the full section for you to see: "It is on these sixty-two grounds, bhikkhus, that those recluses and Brahmins who are speculators about the past, speculators about the future, and speculators about the past and the future together, who hold settled views about the past and the future assert various conceptual theorems referring to the past and the future. “Whatever recluses or Brahmins, bhikkhus, are speculators about the past, or speculators about the future, or speculators about the past and the future together, who hold settled views about the past and the future and assert various conceptual theorems referring to the past and the future., all of them do so on these sixty-two grounds, or on a certain one of them. Outside of these there is none.” …… <…> J:> Again, the Buddha isn't talking about all wrong views or even the > wrong views of all times. He is being very specific to the > speculative views put forth by ascetics and Brahmins; he is also > being specific to the ascetics and Brahmins of his time period. He > wasn't trying to codify all wrong views for all times. That would > be an impossible task. …. S: “ ‘This, bhikkhus, the Tathagata understands. And he understands: ‘These standpoints, thus assumed and thus misapprehended, lead to such a future destination, to such q state in the world beyone’. He understands as well what transcends this, yet even that understanding he does not misapprehend. And because he is free from misapprehension, he has realized within himself th state of perfect peace. Having understood as they really are the origin and passing away of feelings, their satisfaction, unsatisfactoriness, and the escape from them, the Tathagata, bhikkhus, is emancipated through non-clinging.” ….. S: I don’t see it as any problem if we all just read the suttas according to our limited understanding and seek guidance from whichever ancient or modern commentaries or explanations we find helpful. No need for any sadness if we reach different conclusions. We’re just here to exchange our ideas and certainly I have no interest in trying to persuade you or anyone else that you should see the Dhamma my way or even Buddhaghosa’s way. I’ve appreciated the discussion and the way you’ve shared your ideas and the way you’ve carefully considered various texts. Metta, Sarah *Highly recommended: ‘The Discourse on the All-embracing Net of Views, The Brahmajaala Sutta and its Commentaries, transl from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi. (our copy was pub. by the BPS some time ago now). ============ 40628 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 11:41pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 92 - Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (d) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** In this life we perform good deeds and bad deeds; we do not know which deed will produce the next rebirth-consciousness. Also a deed which was performed in a past life is capable of producing the next rebirth-consciousness. Since we are now in the human plane of existence, it was kusala kamma which produced the first citta of our life; birth in the human plane is a happy rebirth. If the kamma which will produce the rebirth-consciousness of the next life is akusala kamma, there will be an unhappy rebirth, and if it is kusala kamma there will be a happy rebirth. Nobody can choose his own rebirth, the rebirth-consciousness is a conditioned dhamma, it is saòkhåra dhamma. This life consists of citta, cetasika and rúpa which are conditioned dhammas. Also in a next life there are bound to be citta, cetasika and rúpa, conditioned and kiriyacittas. If we are not born in an unhappy plane there can be again the development of right understanding. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40629 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 0:28am Subject: Idle chatter- Andrew L Hi AndrewL, I’ll come back to other points later. For now, I’d like to just discuss ‘idle chatter’ and kamma patha capable of bringing results in the way of akusala vipaka, as you’ve referred to the results of idle chatter or mischief by way of speech many times. --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > S: Unless the idle chatter is of the degree of kamma patha (another > > topic), it cannot bring results, but at the same time all kusala and > > akusala accumulates and can assist kamma patha in future. > A:> I am just lost here. How can idle chatter not be kamma patha?… …. S: For example, as we use the phrase conventionally, we may chatter about the weather, computers, clothes or any other topic. Usually it’s with lobha, dosa or moha and thereby akusala (unwholesome), but not of a degree that the cetana/kamma (intention) involved can lead to any results. For example, there is no intention to ‘sow the seed of discord’ as given in the definition of ‘frivolous talk’ , one of the 10 kinds of kamma patha as given in the following description in the Atthasalini, transl as ‘The Expositor’, Courses of Immoral Action: “ ‘Frivolous talk’ is speaking senseless, useless things. The volition which is at the root of all speech of this sort, and is named calumnious, etc, is here alone to be understood. The volition of one with a corrupt mind, producing the bodily and vocal effort to sow the seed of discord among others, or to endear oneself to others is termed the volition of calumnious speech. “It is a smaller or greater offence, according as the virtue of the person whom he separates is smaller or greater [S: just as we've discussed with regard to killing and other unwholesome deeds whereby the virtue and size of the recipient have some bearing. Killing an insect doesn't take the same effort or bring the same consequences as killing a human to give a simple example]. "There are four constituent factors of this crime: [S: i.e 4 factors to be fulfilled for completed kamma-patha, just like for killing to be completed, there has to be a living being ,knowledge of a living being, the intention to kill, effort and death]. 1) Other persons to be divided; 2) The purpose: ‘they will be sepaated,’ or the desire to endear oneself to another: ‘I shall become dear and intimate’; 3) the corresponding effort; 4) the communication. “But when there is no rupture among others, the offence does not amount to a complete course [S: i.e complete kamma patha likely to bring results]; it does so only when there is a rupture. …. S: So, there are bound to be kusala and akusala intentions when we speak together, but I’m sure there is no intention to sow any discord and certainly no ‘ruptures’ when you write. As I say, I’ll try to come back to another few points later. it's a pleasure. Metta, Sarah p.s a couple more definitions on the same page of immoral speech – I can add more if anyone likes: “ ‘Slander’ means calumnious speech which, by being said to another, reduces to nothing the love which that person or the speaker bears at his own heart to a third person.” “By ‘harsh speech’ is meant the entirely harsh volition which produces a bodily and vocal effort, stabbing another as with a mortal wound.” ============================ 40630 From: Egbert Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 2:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG, I have some questions, if I may ? > Hi Howard > > I'm not sure what point you mean to be making. It seems as if you mean to disagree with me but your point only reinforces my position. I.E., that concepts condition other states. HH> Are you sure that it is concepts that condition other states? Is there not a possibility that there is a conditioning factor that underlies the creation of concepts? I tend to think that concepts are products of intention. > Concepts are needed to understand the Dhamma (like training wheels) at least until one can learn to "balance" without them. Although it is possible to learn how to ride a bike without training wheels, I don't think it is possible to > learn Dhamma without concepts. HH> I don't think it is possible to learn Dhamma, but I do think that Dhamma is what is left when samsara is unlearnt. Could you give me an example of learnt-by-concept Dhamma? Thanks and Kind Regards Herman > > TG > 40631 From: Ai Le Date: Wed Jan 5, 2005 6:03pm Subject: My new answer, and listening to my "good music". My new answer is 5 things, in this order in my mind: 1. parable of the saw/metta 2. four noble truths 3. anatta 4. something(s?) I get from the 'Happy' chapter of the 'Dhammapada' 5. Majjhima Nikaya 19 Majjhima Nikaya 19 on the net - http://accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn019.html 'Anatta' is 'not-self'. four noble truths are the four aryan truths: Ill, arising, cessation, path. something(s?) I get from the 'Happy' chapter of the 'Dhammapada': "if one were to never meet fools, one would constantly, constantly be happy" "we who have nothing, happy like the Radiant Gods" there is probably more in this 'Happy' chapter that I get. Extra: If one does not meet up with one equal or higher, let one walk alone like a rhinocerous. There is no association with the fool. -- something like this (maybe two places in the 'Dhammapada', but I put together as one here) in the 'Dhammpada'? Listening to my cassette tapes I bought in the past (which my dad brought to me with other stuff I had given), the singers are wiser or just as wise as me, and made me "happy"..., I wish to think "helped" me HA ha ha !! Even though the teaching I wrote up there -- If one does not meet up with one equal or higher, let one walk alone like a rhinocerous. There is no association with the fool. -- may not be what the 'Dhammapada' says, that is what I say <....> from, Ai Le 40632 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 4:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: What the mind does > > Having is not attachment. Losing > > what you have and reacting with negativity is attachment. > > H > I agree, but only in part. Having also prevents approaching the > Teachings. This is from Udana 2:5 > > " > Thus have I heard. On a certain occasion the Blessed One dwelt at > Savatthi, in the Jetavana, the garden of Anâthapindika. ....... ..... > And the Blessed One, in this connection, on that occasion, breathed > forth this solernn utterance:-- > > "Happy is that upright and learned one who has no possessions! > See how the rich man is troubled; > How one man is in bondage to another." Kel: I believe Buddha is talking about an enlightened person when he refers to upright and learned because they have no attachment to possessions. Because if it's just a rich man he's referring to then note where he gave the sutta. In the garden of Anâthapindika, one of the richest men during Buddha's time. If you're familiar with the story of Anâthapindika and how he donated freely even when his wealth was gone but eventually recovered it all. Being a stream- enterer and as a householder he maintained a balanced mind. He showed the volition is what matters by bringing fertile soil for the trees in the garden when he couldn't afford other material things. Is that actions of a troubled rich man? > > Even > > while "being" there's still goals like reaching nibbana. Again > it's > > not the lack of goals, it's how you go about achieving those goals > > and what you do when you fail. An arahant doesn't sit in a forest > > like a vegetable. They go about expounding dhamma to the masses. > > Relieving people of their misery is very much goal-oriented work. > > H > I do not think an arahant thinks "I'm an arahant and they are > not. I will relieve their misery". Arahants do not think in terms of > self, or in terms of other (selves). What an arahant does, an > arahant does. What a worldling perceives an arahant to be doing is > bound to be wrong. Kel: They still have to live in the conventional world and still deal with conventional things like referring to people by name. It's not magical a transformation to an arahant. If you look at the abhidhamma cittas, it's still the same 8 base kusala citta that became kiriya cittas. Kiriya just doesn't have a link to vipaka cittas otherwise not different from kusala. So during 7 javana cittas, they still do think normally as any human being. In fact, 4 out of 8 cittas are without amoha/wisdom so they're not super human all the time. They still have temperament, personalities and tendencies. Just compare stories of Ashin Sariputta and Ashin MahâMoggallâna. Arahants still strive to spread dhamma, just don't have any attachments to the outcome. It's the same reaction if they fail to liberate anyone versus a million people. If they get hit with sticks and stones versus flowers. They just have mastered the art of accepting the reality as it is while doing what they must do. > > Kel: too extreme imho. Buddha taught "right thought" not "no > > thought". > > > Anguttara Nikàya > 1. Ekakanipàta > XVI. Ekadhammapali > > 320 Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of excreta smells and should be > got rid of, I do not specify thinking even for the fraction of a > second. Kel: from the same section i quote: 301. Bhikkhus, I do not know a single thing on account of which non arisen demeritorious thoughts do not arise and arisen demeritorious thoughts fade as right view. Bhikkhus to one with right view non arisen demeritorious thoughts do not arise and arisen demeritorious thoughts fade. 303.Bhikkhus, I do not know a single thing on account of which non arisen right view arises and arisen right view develops as wise thinking. Bhikkhus to one thinking wisely non arisen right view arises and arisen right view develops Obviously it seems a bit contradictory to promote right thoughts/view at the same time also no thought. So I looked at original pali: 320. Seyyathàpi bhikkhave appamattakopi gåtho duggandho hoti, evameva kho ahaü bhikkhave appamattakampi bhavaü na vaõõemi(95), antamaso accharàsaïghàtamattampãti. then I looked at burmese translation and asked my abhidhamma teacher. I'll have to paraphrase second part in english as this: in similar way, I don't see any worth in spending even a split second on thinking about life (bhavaü). So anyway, this particular example seems to be translated inaccurately without inclusion of the subject of the thought Buddha was referring to. - Kelvin 40633 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 5:19am Subject: Re: Idle chatter- Andrew L Hi Sarah, Just curious if you have more information about this. > S: For example, as we use the phrase conventionally, we may chatter about > the weather, computers, clothes or any other topic. Usually it's with > lobha, dosa or moha and thereby akusala (unwholesome), but not of a degree > that the cetana/kamma (intention) involved can lead to any results. .... > "But when there is no rupture among others, the offence does not amount to > a complete course [S: i.e complete kamma patha likely to bring results]; > it does so only when there is a rupture. When you say result, are you including all the unprofitable result minds? Or is this talking about rebirth-linking quality result? - Kelvin 40634 From: seisen_au Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 5:58am Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi Kelvin and All These two suttas have puzzled me for a while now and like you i was suspicious of the translation, but looking at the pali im still not able to understand the meaning. Is anyone able to clear up what kind of thinking these two suttas talk about? 320. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of excreta smells and should be got rid of, I do not specify thinking even for the fraction of a second. 321. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of urine, saliva, pus, blood smells and should be got rid of, I do not specify thinking{1) even for the fraction of a second. Notes. ( 1) I do not specify thinking even for a short second. `appamattaka.m pi bhava.m na va.n.nemi' Always thoughts seek connections in the past, for the future or in the present. The bhikkhu who aims extinction should not advocte thinking, as thoughts prolong the journey in existence. Pali: 320. Seyyathaapi,bhikkhave, appamattakopi guutho duggandho hoti; evameva.m kho aha.m, bhikkhave, appamattakampi bhava.m na va.n.nemi, antamaso accharaasa"nghaatamattampi. 321. Seyyathaapi,bhikkhave, appamattakampi mutta.m duggandha.m hoti appamattakopi khe.lo duggandho hoti appamattakopi pubbo duggandho hoti appamattakampi lohita.m duggandha.m hoti; evameva.m kho aha.m, bhikkhave, appamattakampi bhava.m na va.n.nemi, antamaso accharaasa"nghaatamattampi. Atthakatha: 320. Seyyathaapi, bhikkhave, appamattakopi guutho duggandho hotiiti ida.m sutta.m a.t.thuppattiya.m vutta.m. Katara-a.t.thuppattiyanti? Navakanipaate (a. ni. 9.12) sattuppaadasutta a.t.thuppattiya.m. Tathaagato hi ta.m attha.m kathento nava puggalaa nirayato muttaa, tiracchaanayonito muttaa, pettivisayato muttaati kathesi. Athassa etadahosi sace kho pana me puttaa ima.m dhammadesana.m sutvaa khii.nanirayamhaa khii.natiracchaanayonikaa khii.napettivisayaa khii.naapaayaduggativinipaataati ma~n~namaanaa uparimaggaphalatthaaya vaayamitu.m na ma~n~neyyu.m, tesa.m sa.mvega.m janessaamiiti sa.mvegajana nattha.m seyyathaapi, bhikkhaveti ima.m suttamaarabhi. Tattha appamattakoti thokamattako parittappamaa.no, antamaso kusaggenapi gahetvaa upasi"nghiyamaano duggandhova hoti. Appamattakampi bhava.m na va.n.nemiiti appamattakampi kaala.m bhave pa.tisandhi.m na va.n.nayaami. Idaanissa upama.m dassento aaha antamaso accharaasa"nghaatamattampiiti. Sabbantimena paricchedena dve a"nguliyo ekato katvaa pahara.namattampi kaalanti vutta.m hoti. Sesa.m sabbattha uttaanatthamevaati. TIA Steve --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > then I looked at burmese translation and asked my abhidhamma > teacher. I'll have to paraphrase second part in english as this: > in similar way, I don't see any worth in spending even a split > second on thinking about life (bhavaü). > > So anyway, this particular example seems to be translated > inaccurately without inclusion of the subject of the thought Buddha > was referring to. > > - Kelvin 40635 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 8:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Dear TG, I must say I would reply all the same. Actually you made your questions clear. Maybe I was not clear in my answering. But after reading your 'this reply' I have the same sense and my replies will be the same that is identical. The problems that most people here faced is speaking outside and speaking inside of conventionality. This may make more confusion. If I have to speak outside of conventionality; there is no pannatti as ultimate realities. The foundations are also paramattha dhamma. These paramattha dhammas are interlinked with each other and final attainment is achieved. When we go to school and study The Buddha teachings we were dealing paramattha dhammas. When 'pannatta desana' and 'paramattha desana' are not well differentiated such problems have to arise. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Htoo > > Your answers show that I didn't make myself clear enough in my questioning. > > I am not talking about using concepts in the final stages of enlightenment. > I am talking about going to school. Learning language. Being exposed to > ideas. Searching for meaning. Finding the Buddha's teachings. Studying those > teachings. Contemplating those teachings. > > I am talking about these things, these largely conceptual things, as being a > foundation for what may eventually be an enlightenment that overcomes or > transcends concepts. > > This is what I am asking about. If concepts are able to "move the mind" > toward enlightenment, or anything for that matter, how so are they not real? I'll > repeat the questions... > > Hi All > > Few questions... > > #1 Did the Buddha ever say "concepts don't exist" or discuss thier ...snip.. "stepping stone" for that attainment? 40636 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 8:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Dear Charles D, There are many issues. You agreed partly or all? If partly, which part or which question and answer? With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Charles DaCosta" wrote: I have to agree, very interesting. ----- Original Message ----- > From: htootintnaing > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 8:15 PM > Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions > Dear TG, > Interesting questions. > Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > TG wrote: > > Hi All > > Few questions... > > #1 Did the Buddha ever say "concepts don't exist" or discuss thier > ontological irrelevence in any manner? (He did say..."In whatever > way it is conceived, the fact is ever other than that." This shows > concepts miss the mark in describing "non-relative truths." But > doesn't say concepts aren't real.) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Htoo: > But concepts are not ultimate realilty. > There are many realities. > Science progressively changes many realities. They define 'this' > as 'that' and that becomes a reality. At another time 'that reality' > is no more real and there has to arise another reality. > <....> 40637 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 9:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: [TG wrote to Howard] Concepts are needed to understand the Dhamma (like training wheels) at least until one can learn to "balance" without them. Although it is possible to learn how to ride a bike without training wheels, I don't think it is possible to learn Dhamma without concepts. TG ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear TG and Howard, An example of training without pannatti can be seen in case of venerable Culapanthaka Thera. He had been taught by his brother arahatta bhikkhu Mahapanthaka for months. But these concepts did not work for Culapanthaka Thera. The Buddha gave him a cloth and instructed him to rub on the ground saying 'rajo harana.m rajo haranam'. This great bhikkhu's attainment was great. He attained arahatship along with jhanas and abhinnas. This just happen in a single morning while The Buddha and 998 bhikkhus were in a house of householder for feeding. This is learning Dhamma wihtout concept. But this is very exceptional. Again 'this' existed and exist and will exist in future Buddhas' time if conditions are there. With Metta, Htoo Naing 40638 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 9:07am Subject: Re: Concepts and Questions TG old post: > > > > Concepts are needed to understand the Dhamma (like training wheels) at least > > > > until one can learn to "balance" without them. Although it is possible to > > learn how to ride a bike without training wheels, I don't think it is > > possible to > > learn Dhamma without concepts. > > ------------------------------------------------- Howard reply: > Howard: > Neither do I. On that we agree. ------------------------------------------------ Htoo: Dear Howard and TG, I posted a reply regarding attainment without concept with the example 'Venerable Culapanthaka Thera'. With Metta, Htoo Naing 40639 From: Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 4:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Htoo (and TG) - In a message dated 1/6/05 12:08:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > Dear TG and Howard, > > An example of training without pannatti can be seen in case of > venerable Culapanthaka Thera. > > He had been taught by his brother arahatta bhikkhu Mahapanthaka for > months. But these concepts did not work for Culapanthaka Thera. > > The Buddha gave him a cloth and instructed him to rub on the ground > saying 'rajo harana.m rajo haranam'. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Ah, but how did Ven. Culapanthaka Thera even understand what his brother was telling him to do without concepts? -------------------------------------- > > This great bhikkhu's attainment was great. He attained arahatship > along with jhanas and abhinnas. This just happen in a single morning > while The Buddha and 998 bhikkhus were in a house of householder for > feeding. > > This is learning Dhamma wihtout concept. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't believe that it is. ---------------------------------------- But this is very > > exceptional. Again 'this' existed and exist and will exist in future > Buddhas' time if conditions are there. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40640 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 9:55am Subject: Dhamma Thread (217) Dear Dhamma Friends, Sometimes the object that arises cannot attract panca-dvara-avajjana citta or 5-sense-door-adverting consciousness to arise at the earliest possible time. Time lapses. There is another visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object' called 'mahanta-arammana' or clear object. Visaya means 'object where citta enjoys and visits' and pavatti means 'arising'. Visaya-pavatti means 'arising of object'. The first kind has been discussed in the previous posts. It was ati-manta- arammana or very clear object. In this visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object' vithi cittas cannot still arise for 5 moments that the object rupa has already been old. R1/B, R2/B, R3/A.B, R4/C.B, R5/U.B R6---R16/-, R17/- and rupa passes away. In the first moment the rupa cannot serve as an object as it is very weak. So R1 or moment1 of rupa has to pass away without arising of any vithi citta. This happens up to the end of R4. But when the rupa serving as an object approaches 5th moment of its life or R5 the first vithi citta starts to arise and it is panca-dvara-avajjana citta or 5-sense-door-adverting consciousness. R1/B, R2/A.B, R3/C.B, R4/U.B, R5/Pancadvara , R6/Vinnana, R7/Sampaticchana, R8/Santirana, R9/Votthapana, R10/1stJavana, R11/2nd, R12/3rd, R13/4th, R14/5th, R15/6thJavana, R16/7thJavana, and R17/NewBhavanga citta. Sometimes vithi citta cannot arise up to R5. In that case 'vithi vara' or 'the turn of processing cittas' will be R1/B, R2/B, R3/A.B, R4/C.B, R5/U.B, R6/Pancadvara, R7/Vinnana, R8/Sampaticchana, R9/Santirana, R10/Votthapana, R11/1stJ, R12/2nd, R13/3rd, R14/4th, R15/5th, R16/6th, and R17/7thJavana citta. In the first sample, at the end of 7th javana citta there left 1 extra moment of life for rupa object. But this one single moment cannot help arising of tadarammana citta and instead bhavanga citta has to arise. In the second sample, at the end of 7th javana citta rupa also passes away along with 7th javana citta. When ati-mahanta-arammana does have tadarammana cittas, these 2 samples do not contain tadarammana cittas. Vithi vara that vithi cittas arise at ati-mahanta-arammana is also known as 'tada-arammana vara'. Vithi vara that vithi cittas arise at mahanta-arammana is also known as 'javana vara'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40641 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 9:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: Apologies Hi Sarah and James, A very quick check-in with DSG... It's great to see such fervent (and growing) activity still going on here--about 50% more posts per month than when I began posting several years ago. You run a great discussion group, Sarah and Jon. Keep up the good work! Sarah, I think James is right about your misquoting of Buddha. I wouldn't think you'd do so intentionally, but your ellipses-- especially in the context of your discussion with James--are misleading. In particular, James was commenting that the Brahmajala Sutta refers only to the views of bhikkhus at that time and asked you for evidence that he was referring to all views of all time. In your response, you quoted Brahmajala sutta: "'It is on these sixty-two grounds, bhikkhus…….past…future……all of them do so on these sixty-two grounds, or on a certain one of them. OUTSIDE OF THESE THERE IS NONE." When I saw that quote, I thought: "Hmmm... so Brahmajala really DOES refer to the views of bhikkhus of the past and future, ALL bhikkhus." But, really, the "past...future" are referring to views about the past and future rather than bhikkhus in the past and future and the "all of them" refers to views about the past and future, and not about past and future bhikkhus. The quote does not at all address James' suggestion that the sutta discusses only the views held by bhikkhus at that time and not all views. But I think you are right, Sarah, that the sutta is universal. I'm wondering if James can think of some view that is not addressed by the Brahmajala and if you can respond by showing how the essence of the view really is discussed in Brahmajala. Dan > …. > > James: Now Sarah, why do you feel it necessary to misquote the > > Buddha? > …. > S: There is no misquote. Much of it was repetition of the earlier passage > and I had made it clear they were my caps. Here is the full section for > you to see: > > "It is on these sixty-two grounds, bhikkhus, that those recluses and > Brahmins who are speculators about the past, speculators about the future, > and speculators about the past and the future together, who hold settled > views about the past and the future assert various conceptual theorems > referring to the past and the future. > > "Whatever recluses or Brahmins, bhikkhus, are speculators about the past, > or speculators about the future, or speculators about the past and the > future together, who hold settled views about the past and the future and > assert various conceptual theorems referring to the past and the future., > all of them do so on these sixty-two grounds, or on a certain one of them. > Outside of these there is none." > …… > <…> > J:> Again, the Buddha isn't talking about all wrong views or even the > > wrong views of all times. He is being very specific to the > > speculative views put forth by ascetics and Brahmins; he is also > > being specific to the ascetics and Brahmins of his time period. He > > wasn't trying to codify all wrong views for all times. That would > > be an impossible task. > …. > S: " `This, bhikkhus, the Tathagata understands. And he understands: > `These standpoints, thus assumed and thus misapprehended, lead to such a > future destination, to such a state in the world beyone'. He understands > as well what transcends this, yet even that understanding he does not > misapprehend. And because he is free from misapprehension, he has > realized within himself th state of perfect peace. Having understood as > they really are the origin and passing away of feelings, their > satisfaction, unsatisfactoriness, and the escape from them, the Tathagata, > bhikkhus, is emancipated through non-clinging." > ….. > S: I don't see it as any problem if we all just read the suttas according > to our limited understanding and seek guidance from whichever ancient or > modern commentaries or explanations we find helpful. No need for any > sadness if we reach different conclusions. We're just here to exchange our > ideas and certainly I have no interest in trying to persuade you or anyone > else that you should see the Dhamma my way or even Buddhaghosa's way. > > I've appreciated the discussion and the way you've shared your ideas and > the way you've carefully considered various texts. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > *Highly recommended: `The Discourse on the All-embracing Net of Views, The > Brahmajaala Sutta and its Commentaries, transl from the Pali by Bhikkhu > Bodhi. (our copy was pub. by the BPS some time ago now). > ============ 40642 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 10:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Dear Howard, TG and All, Pannatti is an area that illude us. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: Hi, Htoo (and TG) - > In a message dated 1/6/05 12:08:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: [Htoo's old reply] > > Dear TG and Howard, > > > > An example of training without pannatti can be seen in case of > > venerable Culapanthaka Thera. > > > > He had been taught by his brother arahatta bhikkhu Mahapanthaka for > > months. But these concepts did not work for Culapanthaka Thera. > > > > The Buddha gave him a cloth and instructed him to rub on the ground > > saying 'rajo harana.m rajo haranam'. > > ---------------------------------------- Howard wrote: Howard: Ah, but how did Ven. Culapanthaka Thera even understand what his brother was telling him to do without concepts? -------------------------------------- Htoo: That is where pannatti did not work. His brother taught him and he tried to absorb with concept. But it was like a volatile liquid and nothing left as concept in Culapanthaka's brain. The Buddha knew Culapanthaka's power and potentials. The Buddha just gave very very simple instruction. When complicated and detail teachings were not absorbed, how pannatti would help him attain enlightenment along with rupa jhanas and abhinna. I believe this exceptional example is attainment without the aid of pannatti. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [Htoo's old reply] > > This great bhikkhu's attainment was great. He attained arahatship > > along with jhanas and abhinnas. This just happen in a single morning > > while The Buddha and 998 bhikkhus were in a house of householder for > > feeding. > > > > This is learning Dhamma wihtout concept. > > ------------------------------------------- Howard wrote: Howard: No, I don't believe that it is. ---------------------------------------- Htoo: This is another area. We can disagree. I believe that 'pannatti' always create disputes among abhidhamma learners. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > But this is very > > > exceptional. Again 'this' existed and exist and will exist in future > > Buddhas' time if conditions are there. > > > > With Metta, > > > > Htoo Naing > > > > > ======================= > With metta, > Howard > 40643 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 10:58am Subject: Dhamma Thread (218) Dear Dhamma Friends, The third visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object' is called paritta- arammana or faint object. Ati-mahanta-arammana passes 1 atita bhavanaga citta. Mahanta-arammana passes 2 atita bhavanga cittas or 3 atita bhavanga cittas. In this visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object' there have to pass 4, or 5, or 6, or 7 or, 8 or 9 atita bhavanaga cittas. a) 4 atita bhavanga cittas pass away R1/B, R2/B, R3/B, R4/A.B, R5/C.B, R6/U.B, R7/Pancadvara, R8/Pancavinnana, R9/Sampaticchana, R10/Santirana, R11/Votthapana, R12/Votthapa, R13/B5, R14/B6, R15/B7, R16/B8, R17/B9 and both rupa and citta pass away at the same time there after. At R11 there arise votthapana citta or determining consciousness. This has to be followed by javana cittas. But there left only 6 moments after R11. So javana cittas cannot arise in 6 moments only and instead 2nd votthapana citta has to arise and then bhavanga cittas have to follow it. Votthapana citta is determining consciousness and now as the object is faint he cannot decide how to deeply feel on the object. R for Rupa serving as object and R1 means the rupa serving as an object is 1 moment old. B is for Bhavanga citta. A.B is for Atita Bhavanga citta. C.B is for Bhavanaga Calana citta. U.B is for Bhavanga- Uppaccheda citta. R7/Pancadvara is for pancadvara-avajjana citta arising at 7th moment of rupa. R13/B5 means at 13th moment of rupa object bhavanga citta has to arise. There are 6 samples. They are 4 atita bhavanga citta passed, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9. So B5 to B9 are all just B for Bhavanga citta. For the reason of counting they are named here as B5, B6 and so on. So in this vithi vara there are 6 possible vithi varas and all vithi vara end with 2 votthapana cittas. So these vithi varas are called 'votthapana vithi vara'. There is no javana cittas at all and because of arisinw of these vithi vara there does not create any kamma. This is because object is faint and cannot support arising of javana cittas. a)1B,2B,3B,4At,5Ca,6Up,7Pa,8Vi,9Sm,10St,11Vo,12Vo,13B5,14B,15B,16B,17B b)1B,2B,3B,4B,5A,6C,7U,8P,9V,10Sm,11St,12Vo,13V,14B6,15B7,16B8,17B9 c)1B,2B,3B,4B,5B,6A,7C,8U,9P,10V,11Sm,12St,13V,14V,15B7,16B8,17B9 d)1B,2B,3B,4B,5B,6B,7A,8C,9U,10P,11V,12Sm,13St,14V,15V,16B8,17B9 e)1B1,2B2,3B3,4B4,5B5,6B6,7B7,8A,9C,10U,11P,12V,13Sm,14St,15V,16V,17B9 f)1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9B9/Atita,10C,11U,12Pan,13V,14Sm,15St,16Vo,17Vot In a 4 atita bhavanga citta pass away before bhavanga calana citta. In b 5 In c 6 In d 7 In e 8 In f 9 atita bhavnaga cittas already pass away before bhavanga calana citta. So 10th moment of rupais taken up by bhavanga calana citta, 11th by bhavanguppaccheda citta, 12th by panca-dvara-avajjana citta, 13th by pancavinnana citta, 14th by sampaticchana, 15th by santirana, and 16th and 17th are both occupied by votthapana cittas and at the end of 2nd votthapana citta rupa passes away along with passing away of 2nd votthapana citta. In a) to e) 2nd votthapana citta is followed by 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 bhavanga citta and rupa passes away. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40644 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 11:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Dear Tep, op 06-01-2005 01:28 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m... > > T: Please do write about your experience in the Dhamma and how you > have steadily made progress over the years, including how the > progress is measured. N: Long ago a Thai friend said to Kh Sujin that from the time she studied Dhamma she discovered many faults and vices within herself. This made her discouraged. True, people may think themselves good Buddhists, keeping the precepts mostly, practising dana, not really hurting others. But there is more in the Dhamma. Do they really know themselves, is there any understanding? Lodewijk said that it is not difficult to consider oneself a beginner. One begins to have more understanding of all akusala accumulations, of the latent tendencies which condition one to always make the same mistakes. I find that through study of Abhidhamma and verifying in life what one learnt one finds out about one's hidden motives. Speech and deeds that seemed good and noble before are in reality mixed with moments of conceit. As to insight: it is not difficult to know one is a beginner. This has nothing to do with despisal of oneself and conceit of thinking oneself less, or false modesty. It is just the plain truth. I have confidence in the Path that I follow, eventually I will get to the goal. But I am not thinking of so much progress today or tomorrow. I just know that insight is difficult, but this does not discourage me at all. Lodewijk said: progress of whom? Are we thinking of ? Then we are again self-involved. He finds the question of progress irrelevant. I think that it is best to consider the citta that is thinking of progress. What type of citta is thinking of progress? T: My understanding is that steady Dhamma progress (e.g. two steps up, > only one step down; or, several steps up and only a few steps down) > only comes after we have clearly seen the drawbacks of the five > aggregates. N: We can see the disadvantages of the five khandhas only after knowing precisely what they are, that is, through the development of insight stage by stage. Knowing one nama and one rupa at a time as it appears. Sati and pañña are sobhana (beautiful) dhammas, accompanying sobhana citta. Here the Abhidhamma can prevent us from going into pitfalls. They are just dhammas and do not belong to anyone. T asked: Could you elaborate a little bit on that (what Howard and TG wrote.)? N: I did not keep their posts, but they were explaining to Chris that ups and downs are quite normal. Nina. 40645 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 11:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is higher dhamma, abhidhamma? Dear Tep, Here is my attempt to answer: The Buddha taught already Abhidhamma in the sutta. The three characteristics of ultimate realities, is that not Abhidhamma? I read the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta (Vinaya, Mahaavagga, 12) today to Lodewijk. The Buddha explained that the five khandhas are anatta, impermanent, subject to change, dukkha. Here is the higher dhamma, the abhidhamma. The sutta does not deal with a King named so and so, in a country, named so and so. He directly explains the khandhas so that we do not delay being aware of seeing now, hardness now. We apply Abhidhamma. That is vipassana. The khandhas, the elements, the aayatanas, this is all about higher dhamma, or abhidhamma. We do not have to go far to find out what abhidhamma is. Let us prove it here and now. Nina. op 06-01-2005 02:21 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > If the Abhidhamma is really "higher Dhamma", why didn't the Buddha > tell His disciples to seek the "abhidhammakatham" after their listening > to the suttas such as the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta? The words "full > release" and "there is nothing further for this world" imply that the > discourse content is adequate, there is nothing higher. 40646 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 11:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Non-hatred, non-greed and non-delusion (from Atthasalini) Dear Phil and Joop, op 05-01-2005 21:41 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: the Atthasalini (commentary to the Dhammasangani of the > Abhidhamma Pitaka.) It considers the nature of the wholesome roots. > "Through non-greed (alobha) one does not overrate (an attractive > object) as the lustful person does. Through non-hatred (adosa) one > does not underrate or deprecate (an unattractive or disagreeable > object) as the hater does." > > What a simple but immensely helpful teaching this has been for me > recently. We read in so many suttas about not being "taken in" by > objects, not "taking the lure" of the objects that arise through the > six doors. And how wise attention frees us from doing so. N: Here we see again that the Abhidhamma is meant for application. If we would not know about the akusala roots, we take for kusala what is akusala. What is the use of the classifications of the different types of cittas rooted in the akusala roots of attachment, aversion and ignorance? It helps us to understand ourselves and other people. It bears down directly on our social contact with others. All these defilements are mere dhammas arising because of their own conditions. If we forget this we become impatient about ourselves and others. We cannot accept that others react as they do. We shall blame them and then we have more and more aversion. We do not have to believe the Abhidhamma, it is to be verified in our life. The Abhidhamma makes us see our faults as if in a mirror. We need to have confidence to see the benefit of the Abhidhamma. Phil: Again, so simple but so helpful to reflect on and verify in daily > life. > And re the dynamic between the wholesome roots and the three > characteristics: > > "Through non-greed one will understand impermanence; for a greedy > man, in his longing for enjoyment, will not see impermanence of > transitory phenomena.... N: Thank you, Phil, for sharing, Nina. 40647 From: Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 6:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 1/6/05 1:14:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > ---------------------------------------- > Howard wrote: > > Howard: > Ah, but how did Ven. Culapanthaka Thera even understand what > his brother was telling him to do without concepts? > -------------------------------------- > Htoo: > > That is where pannatti did not work. > ==================== I made a mistake in what I wrote. (Sorry.) I meant to write "Ah, but how did Ven. Culapanthaka Thera even understand what THE BUDDHA was telling him to do without concepts?" Even simple instruction involves concepts. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40648 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 0:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does Hi Steve, I have to look quietly at the text. Thanks for the Pali. Nina. op 06-01-2005 14:58 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: > > > 320. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of excreta smells and should be > got rid of, I do not specify thinking even for the fraction of a > second. 40649 From: Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 7:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/6/2005 11:51:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: I made a mistake in what I wrote. (Sorry.) I meant to write "Ah, but how did Ven. Culapanthaka Thera even understand what THE BUDDHA was telling him to do without concepts?" Even simple instruction involves concepts. With metta, Howard Yes Yes. Yes. That's exactly the point!!! TG 40650 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 0:58pm Subject: Re: Apologies Friend Dan, Dan: Sarah, I think James is right about your misquoting of Buddha. I wouldn't think you'd do so intentionally, but your ellipses-- especially in the context of your discussion with James—are misleading. James: Thank you Dan for sharing your perspective on this matter. I also did not mean to imply that Sarah was intentionally misquoting the Buddha, but I did want to warn her of how others would interpret her quoting technique in this instance. I'm glad to hear from at least one person that my fears were justified. Thank you again. Dan: But I think you are right, Sarah, that the sutta is universal. James: Okay, I respect your opinion. I want to get back to this below. Dan: I'm wondering if James can think of some view that is not addressed by the Brahmajala and if you can respond by showing how the essence of the view really is discussed in Brahmajala. James: This is an excellent suggestion! Unfortunately, I already did this in a previous post (#40469) and Sarah ignored my challenge. In that post, I put forward the modern views of Existentialism and Objectivism- two wrong views, of an ontological nature, not described in the Brahmajala Sutta. However, Dan, since you are of the opinion that the Brahmajala Sutta is universal perhaps you would like to pick up the challenge? (Especially since I have ended the thread with Sarah- it was going nowhere because Sarah will not budge when it comes to the commentaries ;-)). You can find the full text of the Brahmajala Sutta at this link: http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida_b_wells_memorial_sutra_library /brahmajala_sutta.htm Here is some info about Existentialism: A philosophic tendency of the 19th and 20th centuries. The dogma holds that since there are no universal values, man's essence is not predetermined, but is based only on free choice; Man is in a state of anxiety because of his realization of free will; There is no objective truth; and Existence precedes essence. (James's note: This is a wrong view for several reasons but most striking is its denial of the law of kamma.) http://www.tameri.com/csw/exist/ http://www.thecry.com/existentialism/ AND Here is some info about Objectivism: Objectivism is the philosophy developed by Ayn Rand; it is presented in her novel Atlas Shrugged and in her other fiction and non-fiction works. The central ideas of Objectivism are: Reason is man's only means of knowledge. The facts of reality are knowable through a process of objective reasoning that begins with sensory perception and follows the laws of logic. Objectivism rejects subjectivism, the belief that knowledge is a matter of opinion; skepticism, the belief that knowledge is impossible and no one can be certain of anything; and every form of mysticism, the belief that knowledge is a product of revelations or insights into a supernatural dimension. Rational self-interest is the objective ethical code. Each man should seek his own happiness through a productive life in which his own independent, rational judgement is his only guide to action. No man should sacrifice himself to others nor others to himself. The primary virtues of the Objectivist ethics are rationality, independence, integrity, honesty, justice, productiveness, trade, and pride. Objectivism rejects altruism, the doctrine that the highest good is service to others---whether ``others'' denotes a state, a deity, one's family, ``society,'' or the poor and disadvantaged. (James's note: This is a wrong view for several reasons but most striking is its denial of the inherent ignorance/delusion of wordlings) http://rous.redbarn.org/objectivism/Writing/InBrief/ http://www.whatisobjectivism.com/explained/index.htm Metta, James 40651 From: Andrew Levin Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 1:04pm Subject: Re: Idle chatter- Andrew L --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AndrewL, > > I'll come back to other points later. For now, I'd like to just discuss > `idle chatter' and kamma patha capable of bringing results in the way of > akusala vipaka, as you've referred to the results of idle chatter or > mischief by way of speech many times. > > --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > > S: Unless the idle chatter is of the degree of kamma patha (another > > > topic), it cannot bring results, but at the same time all kusala and > > > akusala accumulates and can assist kamma patha in future. > > > A:> I am just lost here. How can idle chatter not be kamma patha?… > …. > S: For example, as we use the phrase conventionally, we may chatter about > the weather, computers, clothes or any other topic. Usually it's with > lobha, dosa or moha and thereby akusala (unwholesome), but not of a degree > that the cetana/kamma (intention) involved can lead to any results. For > example, there is no intention to `sow the seed of discord' as given in > the definition of `frivolous talk' , one of the 10 kinds of kamma patha as > given in the following description in the Atthasalini, transl as `The > Expositor', Courses of Immoral Action: > > " `Frivolous talk' is speaking senseless, useless things. The volition > which is at the root of all speech of this sort, and is named calumnious, > etc, is here alone to be understood. The volition of one with a corrupt > mind, producing the bodily and vocal effort to sow the seed of discord > among others, or to endear oneself to others is termed the volition of > calumnious speech. Sarah, this ('sowing the seed of discourse') sounds like the definition of divisive speech, one of the four modes of speech the Buddha censured. The opposite of divisive speech is speech which creates concord: MN 41 Saleyyaka Sutta ================================================================== Abandoning malicious speech, he becomes one who abstains from malicious speech: as one who is neither a repeater elsewhere of what is heard here for the purpose of causing division from these, nor a repeater to these of what is heard elsewhere for the purpose of causing division from those, who is thus a reuniter of the divided, a promoter of friendships, enjoying concord, rejoicing in concord, delighting in concord, he becomes a speaker of words that promote concord. ================================================================== I would ask you where you got this definition of frivolous speech. (It started off good at first but the definition doesn't fit. There's malicious or divisive speech for that, the Buddha clearly referenced this as one of the four types of immoral speech, which contains both divisive speech and idle chatter. There is > > "It is a smaller or greater offence, according as the virtue of the person > whom he separates is smaller or greater [S: just as we've discussed with > regard to killing and other unwholesome deeds whereby the virtue and size > of the recipient have some bearing. Killing an insect doesn't take the > same effort or bring the same consequences as killing a human to give a > simple example]. > > "There are four constituent factors of this crime: [S: i.e 4 factors to be > fulfilled for completed kamma-patha, just like for killing to be > completed, there has to be a living being ,knowledge of a living being, > the intention to kill, effort and death]. > > 1) Other persons to be divided; > 2) The purpose: `they will be sepaated,' or the desire to endear oneself > to another: `I shall become dear and intimate'; > 3) the corresponding effort; > 4) the communication. > > "But when there is no rupture among others, the offence does not amount to > a complete course [S: i.e complete kamma patha likely to bring results]; > it does so only when there is a rupture. > …. > S: So, there are bound to be kusala and akusala intentions when we speak > together, but I'm sure there is no intention to sow any discord and > certainly no `ruptures' when you write. > > As I say, I'll try to come back to another few points later. it's a > pleasure. > > Metta, > > Sarah Sarah, also consider: Anguttara Nikaya VIII.40 Vipaka Sutta Results ================================================================== "Frivolous chattering -- when indulged in, developed, & pursued -- is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from frivolous chattering is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to words that aren't worth taking to heart. ================================================================== I hold this to be the truth as it is in accordance with my understanding. So you can see why I'm of the position that idle chatter, in any dose, can rarely bring good results. Another definition the Buddha gave of idle chatter, this from the first sutta: He is a gossip: as one who tells that which is unseasonable, that which is not fact, that which is not good, that which is not the Dhamma, that which is not the Discipline, and he speaks out of season speech not worth recording, which is unreasoned, indefinite, and unconnected with good. And the opposite of that, placed in some suttas after the phrase "Abandoning idle chatter" (implying this mode of speech is its 'opposite' if you will: DN 2 Samannaphala Sutta, The Fruits of the Contemplative Life ==================================================================== "Abandoning idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, and the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal. ==================================================================== So with the opposites of both frivolous and divisive speech being expounded as what one would logically infer, how can frivolous speech have such an obscure meaning? 40652 From: Matthew Miller Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 6:49am Subject: Re: Seeing & Hearing Howard wrote: > Matthew, our perspectives are completely different. > Yours is the "objective physical world of matter and > energy" story of physics, and mine is the > phenomenological "world of experience". Our base > assumptions are radically different, sufficently different > to make it impossible for me to reply properly > to your question. Actually, our perspectives are not so radically different here. My last posts did indeed describe the "phenomoneological world of experience" arising at the sense-doors, and not "the objective physical world of physics." For example, I wrote: >> Sound is a vibration. It is nothing more than a frequency and >> amplitude of pressure changes which occur in time. This can be experienced. Take any random sound that you can hear right now. This is saddaarammana.na, it is rupa, it is paramattha dhamma, it is that which appears through the earsense and, as Nina says, "it doesn't matter how we name it" (or does it?) What do we experience as saddaarammana.na? Saddaarammana.na is a vibratory frequency (experienced as pitch, high or low). It is amplitude (experienced as loudness). Could there be a sound without pitch and loudness? Would it still be a sound? The abhidhamma literature repeatedly asserts that all sensing is "serial" (e.g. that when one is hearing, the eye is not present). This assertion seems counter-intuitive to me and contradicts my "experience of realities as they arise at the sense-doors." Here's a summary of the experiences I described which seem to contradict the abhidhammic serial-sense theory: 1. Experience of having one sense altered by the simultaneous presence of another sense. The example I gave was hearing and sight. You can actually try this yourself: When sitting in the passenger seat of a car (not while driving please!) close your eyes for a while. Then, the next time the car stops at a light, focus on a random sound. Now open your eyes. Notice how the perception of the sound itself changes with simultaneous vision. Even if you cannot SEE the source of the sound, its direction becomes more clear. (N.B. Before you opened your eyes, there was a vague, inherent direction in the sound, but it comes into sharper focus with the addition of sight) There are other examples of combined senses. I'll post them later. 2. Experience of the durational aspect of hearing. If the "flitting" between senses is as rapid as abhidhammic descriptions imply, a sound vibration unfolding in time would be difficult (if not impossible) to perceive clearly. For a sound to be perceived, the earsense must hold it (resonate) for a certain minimum duration. This is especially true when dealing with low frequencies. We humans can even experience infrasound (very low frequencies which whales and elephants use to communicate over distances of several miles). Here we're talking about frequencies of only 12 cycles/second or less, which would require our earsense holding steady over relatively long periods of time. It's hard to imagine how this could be perceived using a flitting, serial earsense. Here's a third one: 3. You're watching a movie and the sound is not perfectly synced with the picture. The image of an explosion or of an actor's lips moving comes slightly later (or earlier) than the sound. If the earsense and eyesense were not being received in parallel, if there was flitting back and forth from hearing to seeing, how could we detect if they were out-of-sync? Matthew 40653 From: Munawwar Siddique Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 9:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Hello' Thanks, Larry, Another word for 'Tasawwuf' is 'Sufism', one may call it 'Islamic Mysticism' , I guess. Best Regards, Munawwar -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Munawwar, > > Welcome to the group. Could you expand on your comment below. The rule > here is to stay on topic (Theravada Buddhadhamma). So if you tied your > observations into that and didn't go too far afield, that might do. What > is "Tasawwuf"? > > Larry > ---------------------------- > M: "Greetings! all, > I am a practising Muslim interested in the study of comparative > religion. I see a convergence in the paths of of Abidhamma and Tasawwuf. > Peace! > Munawwar" 40654 From: Munawwar Siddique Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 9:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Hello' Thanks Jon, Munawwar --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Munawwar > > Welcome to the list from me. > > If you are interested in finding out more about the Abhidhamma, I think > you have come to the right place. > > As a member pointed out in a recent post, the Abhidhamma is a > presentation of the teaching that is called the Dhamma. That teaching > describes the way things truly are at the present moment, and the way of > escape from the round of birth and death of which this present life is > but one fleeting moment. > > Jon 40655 From: Munawwar Siddique Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 9:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] 'Hello' Dear Nina, Thank you. I am from Sri Lanka, the land of Therawada Buddhism. Peace, Munawwar --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Munawwar, > Welcome here, and this is really fascinating. How do you see the Abhidhamma? > From which country are you? > When my husband and I were living in Indonesia we had some personal contacts > with Imans and we were deeply impressed by their spiritual life. Actually, > when you strive after knowing yourself more, developing understanding of > your life, Abhidhamma study is perfect. > Nina. 40656 From: Andrew Levin Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 2:34pm Subject: Re: Idle chatter- Andrew L Sarah- In my previous post I did not see your source, so if it has some credibility then just please try to make it clear how it defines the four unwholesome types of speech, in part by their opposites, as the Buddha described them to laypeople in numerous discourses, because what you wrote seems like it has one mixed up with the other. peace, a.l. 40657 From: Andrew Levin Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 2:46pm Subject: Re: Abhidharma - Andrew L - Kelvin, Just one to make sure of one thing. All of the 40 meditation subjects described in the Vissudhimagga take one through the same insights and levels of understanding even if it's at different paces, and different means of getting there, right? Like the example of the meditation of the four elements -- my commentary states that when one completes this, one will be without clinging and thereby at the end of the round of rebirths - it will take one through the same insight knowledges, and the same four stages of enlightenment that a walking or sitting vipassana practise for example, could, right? Just wanting to make sure of this (major) last point. Peace be, Andrew Levin 40658 From: Dan D. Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 2:52pm Subject: Re: Apologies Dear James, I don't have a lot of time to plough through this discussion carefully, so I'll just jot down a quick comment and leave the rest for Sarah (or someone else) to elaborate on as they see fit. James' summary of Existentialism: "A philosophic tendency of the 19th and 20th centuries. The dogma holds that since there are no universal values, man's essence is not predetermined, but is based only on free choice; Man is in a state of anxiety because of his realization of free will; There is no objective truth; and Existence precedes essence." Asserting an "essence" of a "man" is a manifestation of wrong view, of viewing the five aggregates as either having or composing a "self". The existentialist then says that the base of man's essense (i.e., Self) is free choice (or cetana) and so takes the Self to be based in one of the five aggregates. What are the origin and fate of this existing Self? The generic existentialist in your description doesn't say, but once the existence of the Self is asserted, I can't see how would not fit into eternalism, semi-eternalism, annihilationism, or endless equivocation. With any given person, the wrong view arising at a given moment might well fall into any of the categories. [Interesting to note that BB in his CMA (Guide to II.4) states that ditthi means "seeing wrongly" and that wrong interpretations or beliefs are simply manifestations of ditthi, i.e., wrong opinions would be evidence of underlying ditthi, rather than wrong opinions being the ditthi itself. This sure seems right to me!] Best wishes, Sir James. Dan 40659 From: Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies Hi, James (and Dan & Sarah) - In a message dated 1/6/05 4:02:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > James: This is an excellent suggestion! Unfortunately, I already > did this in a previous post (#40469) and Sarah ignored my > challenge. In that post, I put forward the modern views of > Existentialism and Objectivism- two wrong views, of an ontological > nature, not described in the Brahmajala Sutta. > ======================== Objectivism, besides displaying other errors such as overstating the power of reason and underestimating the harm in craving, falls under wrong view # 51, as Objectivism has a strong materialist, annihilationist, atta-view. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40660 From: Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 10:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing Hi, Matthew - In a message dated 1/6/05 4:28:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, bupleurum@y... writes: > > Howard wrote: > >Matthew, our perspectives are completely different. > >Yours is the "objective physical world of matter and > >energy" story of physics, and mine is the > >phenomenological "world of experience". Our base > >assumptions are radically different, sufficently different > >to make it impossible for me to reply properly > >to your question. > > Actually, our perspectives are not so radically different here. My > last posts did indeed describe the "phenomoneological world of > experience" arising at the sense-doors, and not "the objective > physical world of physics." For example, I wrote: > > >>Sound is a vibration. It is nothing more than a frequency and > >>amplitude of pressure changes which occur in time. > > This can be experienced. Take any random sound that you can hear > right now. This is saddaarammana.na, it is rupa, it is paramattha > dhamma, it is that which appears through the earsense and, as Nina > says, "it doesn't matter how we name it" (or does it?) What do we > experience as saddaarammana.na? Saddaarammana.na is a vibratory > frequency (experienced as pitch, high or low). It is amplitude > (experienced as loudness). Could there be a sound without pitch and > loudness? Would it still be a sound? --------------------------------- Howard: What is doing the vibrating? I still think you are talking physics, not sound-door experience. -------------------------------- > > The abhidhamma literature repeatedly asserts that all sensing is > "serial" (e.g. that when one is hearing, the eye is not present). > This assertion seems counter-intuitive to me and contradicts my > "experience of realities as they arise at the sense-doors." > --------------------------------------- Howard: We also have a sense of "I", do we not? So, does that mean there is an "I"? A basic premiss of the Dhamma is that "I" is illusion. Is it not conceivable to you that simultaneous multi-sense-door experience is also illusion that can be dispelled by Dhammic training? --------------------------------------- Here's a > > summary of the experiences I described which seem to contradict the > abhidhammic serial-sense theory: > > 1. Experience of having one sense altered by the simultaneous > presence > of another sense. The example I gave was hearing and sight. You can > actually try this yourself: When sitting in the passenger seat of a > car (not while driving please!) close your eyes for a while. Then, > the next time the car stops at a light, focus on a random sound. Now > open your eyes. Notice how the perception of the sound itself changes > with simultaneous vision. Even if you cannot SEE the source of the > sound, its direction becomes more clear. > > (N.B. Before you opened your eyes, there was a vague, inherent > direction in the sound, but it comes into sharper focus with the > addition of sight) > -------------------------------------- Howard: I think I already responded to this issue, didn't I? -------------------------------------- > > There are other examples of combined senses. I'll post them later. > > 2. Experience of the durational aspect of hearing. If the > "flitting" > between senses is as rapid as abhidhammic descriptions imply, a sound > vibration unfolding in time would be difficult (if not impossible) to > perceive clearly. For a sound to be perceived, the earsense must hold > it (resonate) for a certain minimum duration. This is especially true > when dealing with low frequencies. We humans can even experience > infrasound (very low frequencies which whales and elephants use to > communicate over distances of several miles). Here we're talking > about frequencies of only 12 cycles/second or less, which would > require our earsense holding steady over relatively long periods of > time. It's hard to imagine how this could be perceived using a > flitting, serial earsense. > ----------------------------------- Howard: I believe this is still physics talk. ---------------------------------- > > Here's a third one: > > 3. You're watching a movie and the sound is not perfectly synced > with > the picture. The image of an explosion or of an actor's lips moving > comes slightly later (or earlier) than the sound. If the earsense > and > eyesense were not being received in parallel, if there was flitting > back and forth from hearing to seeing, how could we detect if they > were out-of-sync? > --------------------------------------- Howard: When images and sounds are lined up (to speak conventionally about "stuff" in the "external world"), sense doors are alternating with each other and with mind door, and mental processing coordinates the other sensations into a coherent cognitive view of images and sound co-occurring. When they are out of synch, the mental processing presents that cognitive perception instead. ---------------------------------------- > > Matthew > > ======================== With metta, Howard P.S. It seems to me that you accept as truth the stories of modern materialist science, and then try to see how our internal processing of experience should be in order to match those stories. But I take experience as primary, and I consider various world views as stories which more or less can properly serve as means to predict future experience on the basis of past and present experience. I see them only as predictive schemes. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40661 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 3:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Apologies Friend Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Dan & Sarah) - > > In a message dated 1/6/05 4:02:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > James: This is an excellent suggestion! Unfortunately, I already > > did this in a previous post (#40469) and Sarah ignored my > > challenge. In that post, I put forward the modern views of > > Existentialism and Objectivism- two wrong views, of an ontological > > nature, not described in the Brahmajala Sutta. > > > ======================== > Objectivism, besides displaying other errors such as overstating the > power of reason and underestimating the harm in craving, falls under wrong view > # 51, as Objectivism has a strong materialist, annihilationist, atta-view. > > With metta, > Howard Would you mind quoting some material from Ayn Rand, or other Objectivism material, to support this position? From my reading, the objectivist position is rather non-committal when it comes to this issue (and not in an "eel-wriggling" sort of way). Here is what Ayn Rand had to say about it: "I am an intransigent atheist, but not a militant one. This means that I am an uncompromising advocate of reason and that I am fighting for reason, not against religion. I must also mention that I do respect religion in its philosophical aspects, in the sense that it represents an early form of philosophy." [Ayn Rand, Letters of Ayn Rand, March 20, 1965] Metta, James Ps. Btw, since you have thrown your hat in, do you think the Brahmajala Sutta describes all possible cases of wrong view? Hmmm??? Don't be quiet on this issue!! ;-)) 40662 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 3:51pm Subject: Re: Apologies Friend Dan, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > Dear James, > I don't have a lot of time to plough through this discussion > carefully, so I'll just jot down a quick comment and leave the rest > for Sarah (or someone else) to elaborate on as they see fit. Thanks for giving some more input on this matter. I won't question or elaborate further on what you state here because it appears that you don't wish to be drawn into prolonged discussion (which I respect, believe me! ;-)). Thanks again. Metta, James 40663 From: Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 3:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Howard: "Seeing a sight (i.e., visual consciousness) is just the experiential presence of the sight, and that is different from the sight itself." Hi Howard, I still don't understand what you have in mind. What makes you think there is a sight itself? Larry (nothing new below) ------------------------- H: "Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/5/05 10:43:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: Hi Howard, What's the difference between presence of hardness and sensation of hardness? These are just two words for the same experience. ---------------------------------------- Howard: No. Here we are running into language problems. If by "the sensation of hardness" you mean "the awareness of hardness", then the presence of hardness and the sensation of hardness are the same. But when I use the expression "the sensation of hardness", I mean "the sensation which is hardness". Bodily sensations such as hardness, pains, itches, etc are rupas. The experiential *presence* of any one of them is the consciousness of it, and that is different from the sensation itself. The two go together, of course, always. There is never an itch that is not felt, and there is never the awareness of an itch without the itch. ---------------------------------------------- By positing a difference between sensation and consciousness aren't you asserting that there is an experiencable external object (external to consciousness)? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: External to it? No. Independent of it? No. But different from it? Yes. It seems to me that you understand by 'rupa' something in a material "external world". I mean no such thing. For me a rupa is a sensation: bodily, visual, auditory, tactile, or olfactory. Any one of these, when it arises, arises as an experiential object. Its experiential presence - and "experiential" is redundant, for that is the only sort of presence a sensation has - is the consciousness of that rupa. ---------------------------------------------- If so, what experiences this object? If consciousness is> different from sensation it can't be the experience of sensation. Is sensation a non-conscious experience? ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Hardness is a sensation, its experiential presence is consciousness of that hardness. They are distinguishable but inseparable. Similarly, the outside and inside of a box are not the same, but there is never one without the other. They are distinguishable but inseparable. Consciousness of an arammana is the mere presence of that arammana. Nothing more. Seeing a sight (i.e., visual consciousness) is just the experiential presence of the sight, and that is different from the sight itself. This is "consciousness" in the sense that is untainted by atta-view. Perhaps you are thinking of consciousness as an operation of a knowing subject, or as, itself, a "knower". That goes too far; that is the vi~n~nana that ceases in the process of dependent cessation. That is consciousness-infected-by-sense-of-self. With metta, Howard" 40664 From: Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 3:58pm Subject: Vim.XIV 129 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV [THE PERCEPTION AGGREGATE] 129. Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of perceiving should be understood, all taken together, as the perception aggregate' (par.81). And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of perceiving is perception itself, according as it is said, 'It perceives, friend, that is why it is called perception' (m.i,293). But though it is singlefold according to its individual essence as the characteristic of perceiving, it is nevertheless threefold as to kind, that is to say, profitable, unprofitable, and indeterminate. Herein, [462] that associated with profitable consciousness is 'profitable', that associated with unprofitable consciousness is 'unprofitable', and that associated with indeterminate consciousness is 'indeterminate'. Since there is no consciousness dissociated from perception, perception therefore has the same number of divisions as consciousness [that is to say, eighty-nine]. 40666 From: Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 11:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies Hi, James - In a message dated 1/6/05 6:49:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > Would you mind quoting some material from Ayn Rand, or other > Objectivism material, to support this position? From my reading, > the objectivist position is rather non-committal when it comes to > this issue (and not in an "eel-wriggling" sort of way). Here is > what Ayn Rand had to say about it: > > "I am an intransigent atheist, but not a militant one. This means > that I am an uncompromising advocate of reason and that I am > fighting for reason, not against religion. I must also mention that > I do respect religion in its philosophical aspects, in the sense > that it represents an early form of philosophy." [Ayn Rand, Letters > of Ayn Rand, March 20, 1965] > --------------------------------- Howard: That material quotes Ms Rand in one of her mellowed-out, relatively sane moments. More usually she was rabidly anti-religion. I haven't read Ayn Rand for many, many years. But when I did, I was quite the devotee. I read virtually all her books, and subscribed to The Objectivist Newsletter, and later The Objectivist, for years. Her book ANTHEM, by the way, a lovely little work, is a paeon to the self!! I do not have any of her books or other writings easily available now. They may be squirreled away somewhere in my basement. In any case, I'm not inclined to do a search for them nor to search through them for material. Be assured that I know what her positions were *quite* well and that what I had to say about Objectivism is correct. ----------------------------------------------- > > Metta, > James > Ps. Btw, since you have thrown your hat in, do you think the > Brahmajala Sutta describes all possible cases of wrong view? > Hmmm??? Don't be quiet on this issue!! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't really know, James, but I would doubt that it is exhaustive. ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40667 From: Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 11:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/6/05 6:55:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "Seeing a sight (i.e., visual consciousness) is just the > experiential presence of the sight, and that is different from the sight > itself." > > Hi Howard, > > I still don't understand what you have in mind. What makes you think > there is a sight itself? > > Larry > ======================= We are each talking a non-dualism here, Larry, but with you taking the subjective slant and me taking the objective slant. I understand you to be saying that there occurs a mind event of seeing, and the characteristic of one such seeing that distinguishes it from another seeing we call "the sight seen" but that is just a manner of speaking. I, on the other hand, say that a sight arises. The sight is the experience, and the arising of it, it's becoming present, we call "consciousness of the sight". There is really little difference in our positions other than emphasis. I prefer my formulation because of the no-self experience I underwent once, in which "I", the knowing subject, disappeared, but sights, sounds, etc still arose. There were just those experiential events arising, but no knower of them. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40668 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 5:31pm Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence Dear Chris, I think its fairly common for this to occur. here is a quote which I recite to me on occasions, "i'm blind, my eyes are destroyed. i'v stumbled on a wilderness track. even if I must crawl, i'll go on, but not with an evil companion". Thag.95 patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Hello all, > > Strange, isn't it ... how enthusiam for the Dhamma wafts and > wanes ... ? > I've noticed a pattern over the last year or so - great interest, > strong enthusiam, confidence, contentment in the practice .. and > then, boredom, alienation, doubt, discontent. I'm at the bottom of > that cycle at the moment - hope it is a cycle - not sure what to do - > other than having patience, and keeping on keeping on .... > > metta and peace, > Christine > --- The trouble is that you think you have time--- 40669 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 5:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Apologies Friend Howard, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > Howard: > That material quotes Ms Rand in one of her mellowed-out, relatively > sane moments. More usually she was rabidly anti-religion. Okay, thanks for the input. Really, I don't know a great deal about Objectivism other than a few things I have read. I had some exposure to Objectivism in college when, in the student cafeteria, I was often approached by members of an Objectivist group on campus to attend one of their meetings. When I told them that I was a Buddhist, they usually left me alone ;-)). I bought a used copy of The Fountainhead here in Cairo and one day I may get around to reading it. Anyway, I will take your word for it and drop the issue of Objectivism-perhaps it does fit within the Brahmajala Sutta. Metta, James 40670 From: Tep Sastri Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 6:11pm Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 06-01-2005 01:28 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m... > > > > T: Please do write about your experience in the Dhamma and how you > > have steadily made progress over the years, including how the > > progress is measured. Dear Nina, Thank you for telling a brief story about your Abhidhamma study and how you have applied it. This story persuades me to look at the Dhamma with a broader perspective about insight and its progress. You are pretty clever at explaining your point by touching on it little by little, and making it sound more and more convincing each time. N: Lodewijk said that it is not difficult to consider oneself a beginner. One begins to have more understanding of all akusala accumulations, of the latent tendencies which condition one to always make the same mistakes. T: Lodewijk is a wise man. His words remind me of a sutta that says even a newborn baby has latent tendencies (anusaya?). So it makes sense to talk about effects that are produced by accumulations of akusala from the previous lives. But what about bad "habits" that are being created everyday? Is a bad habit latent tendency too? N: I find that through study of Abhidhamma and verifying in life what one learnt one finds out about one's hidden motives. Speech and deeds that seemed good and noble before are in reality mixed with moments of conceit. T: It is sad that even "noble" speech and deeds are not truly noble. According to the Abhidhamma, are impure hidden motives caused mainly by conceit? Or by tanha? N: As to insight: it is not difficult to know one is a beginner. This has nothing to do with despisal of oneself and conceit of thinking oneself less, or false modesty. It is just the plain truth. I have confidence in the Path that I follow, eventually I will get to the goal. T: I am glad to know that you're following the Path. The words "confidence in the Path" and "eventually" imply that you plan to reach the goal in a finite amount of time, and that you are making progress in the Dhamma. N: Lodewijk said: progress of whom? Are we thinking of ? Then we are again self-involved. He finds the question of progress irrelevant. I think that it is best to consider the citta that is thinking of progress. What type of citta is thinking of progress? T: I do not know what kind of citta thinks of progress. But can we make progress (e.g. accumulating more and more kusala dhamma) without thinking about "our progress" or "who makes the progress"? I think we can. Even the computer can be taught to correct errors and become more intelligent without "thinking" of its progress. N: Sati and panna are sobhana (beautiful) dhammas, accompanying sobhana citta. Here the Abhidhamma can prevent us from going into pitfalls. T: What are the pitfalls? I wish I could understand exactly what you meant above, Nina! Since most DSG members are familiar with sobhana citta, may I ask you to just give me a Web link to the source of this subject matter? Kindest regards, Tep ===== 40671 From: Tep Sastri Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 7:27pm Subject: Re: what is higher dhamma, abhidhamma? Dear Nina and Ken O. - -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > Here is my attempt to answer: > The Buddha taught already Abhidhamma in the sutta. The three characteristics of ultimate realities, is that not Abhidhamma? > I read the Anatta-lakkhana Sutta (Vinaya, Mahaavagga, 12) today to Lodewijk. > The Buddha explained that the five khandhas are anatta, impermanent, subject to change, dukkha. Here is the higher dhamma, the abhidhamma. The sutta does not deal with a King named so and so, in a country, named so and so. He > directly explains the khandhas so that we do not delay being aware of seeing now, hardness now. We apply Abhidhamma. That is vipassana. > The khandhas, the elements, the aayatanas, this is all about higher dhamma, or abhidhamma. Thank you for answering my questions to Ken O. for me (and other members too). Your answer is very interesting and very clever ! I agree with you that the Dhamma taught by the Buddha in the Anatta- lakkhana Sutta (Vinaya, Mahaavagga, 12) is the highest, there is nothing else above it. That's why (as I told Ken O.) the 5 Noble Disciples became Arahunt after they had listened to this discourse. Knowing that the Higher Dhamma is already in the suttas, all Buddhists, who previously did not believe in the suttas, should prioritize their study on the Vinaya Pitaka and the Sutta Pitaka. They don't even have to study the difficult Abhidhamma Pitaka at all. For those who aim at practicing as soon as possible after the reading, they only have to pay their utmost attention to no more than 20 suttas, for example, the Sekha-patipada Sutta, Anatta-lakkhana Sutta, Maha-satipatthana Sutta, Ahara Sutta, Salayatana-Vibhanga Sutta, and Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta. Without having to worry about looking elsewhere for a "Higher Dhamma", they now can spend a lot more time to practice according to these great suttas. N: > We do not have to go far to find out what abhidhamma is. Let us prove it here and now. T: Yes, it is proven. Kindest regards, Tep ============== 40672 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 7:34pm Subject: Re: Abhidharma - Andrew L - Andrew, > Just one to make sure of one thing. All of the 40 meditation subjects > described in the Vissudhimagga take one through the same insights and > levels of understanding even if it's at different paces, and different > means of getting there, right? > > Like the example of the meditation of the four elements -- my > commentary states that when one completes this, one will be without > clinging and thereby at the end of the round of rebirths - it will > take one through the same insight knowledges, and the same four stages > of enlightenment that a walking or sitting vipassana practise for > example, could, right? Kel: 40 meditation subjects are objects to which our mind can advert to. Now one can use a particular object for either samatha (concentration) or insight (vipassana) meditation. Technically in Visuddhimagga, they're given in concentration section because it's a necessary preparation for insight. One monk equated concentration to being able to "see" the truth. Now that doesn't mean one comprehends the truth. Once you're able to "see", you investigate it repeatedly to understand the truth. Investigation is what leads to insight. People will achieve mental clarity (concentration) at different paces for sure. Now if your ability to see is tainted or weak then insight progress could be slow or incomplete. On the other hand, even some wisdom will in turn help the concentration by giving you better ability to handle difficulities in your practice and life. So you can do them in distinct steps, first concentration and second insight or interleave them as you go. Though don't forget sila (five percepts) is the foundation, make sure it's solid or your practice won't go far. We're using the objects as a mean to develop wisdom. Insight knowledges are landmarks to quantify the maturity of your wisdom, nothing to do with the object. The boundaries between stages can be fussy and you might not experience them in distinct stages. Since everyone must pass through the same landmarks in developing their wisdom, it is the same "path". Again, different pace for different people in how fast they progress on the path. The fruit at the end is the same for everyone. Walking or sitting are just the posture you practice meditation in, not necessarily the object of meditation. Still whatever object you take it should fall in the 40 subjects and it'll take you along the same path. Btw, recollection of deities is one of the 40 subjects. The reason for anapana to 4-element meditation popularity is it's the easiest to start investigating phase for majority of people. - kel 40673 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 8:30pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi Steve and Kelvin, My two cents worth: The Buddha taught satipatthana (including vipassana) and only satipatthana. Conceptualising can never amount to satipatthana, and so, undeniably, the Buddha never taught it - not even for a fraction of a second. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "seisen_au" wrote: > > Hi Kelvin and All > > These two suttas have puzzled me for a while now and like you i was > suspicious of the translation, but looking at the pali im still not > able to understand the meaning. Is anyone able to clear up what kind > of thinking these two suttas talk about? > > > 320. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of excreta smells and should be > got rid of, I do not specify thinking even for the fraction of a > second. > > 321. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of urine, saliva, pus, blood > smells and should be got rid of, I do not specify thinking{1) even > for the fraction of a second. > > Notes. > > ( 1) I do not specify thinking even for a short second. > `appamattaka.m pi bhava.m na va.n.nemi' Always thoughts seek > connections in the past, for the future or in the present. The > bhikkhu who aims extinction should not advocte thinking, as thoughts > prolong the journey in existence. > 40674 From: Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 8:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Howard: "I, on the other hand, say that a sight arises. The sight is the experience, and the arising of it, it's becoming present, we call "consciousness of the sight"." Hi Howard, I think our main difference is that I think of experience as being consciousness and I can't imagine it being anything else. Maybe the problem is a difference in what we mean by "object of consciousness". I think of object of consciousness as being a reference point rather than a specimen under the microscope. For example, when I am angry there is no experienced object of that anger. The object is there causally as a reference point but not in the moment of anger. There is only one player on the stage and it is consciousness. You, on the other hand, seem to think that object and consciousness are both there in experience like the inside and outside of a box. As I see it, the problem with your formulation is that the object has a very nebulous status. But I can see how this idea comes out of the Buddha's explanation of contact. Larry 40675 From: Matthew Miller Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 6:44pm Subject: Re: Seeing & Hearing Howard: > What is doing the vibrating? I still think you are talking physics, > not sound-door experience. Visuddhimagga says that "earsense" is one of the sense-organs, located inside the ear "at a spot shaped like a finger-ring and fringed by tender, tawny hairs." So I suppose that's what vibrating. Matthew 40676 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 10:24pm Subject: Re: what is higher dhamma, abhidhamma? Hi All, > Knowing that the Higher Dhamma is already in the suttas, all > Buddhists, who previously did not believe in the suttas, should I just wanted to point out a link for writings by Ledi Sayadaw: http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL03.html Section: How to Acquire Nama-rupa-pariggaha-nana. Some excerpts: In the chapter on Ditthi-visuddhi in the Visuddhi-magga Atthakatha, the process for full comprehension of the characteristics of physical and mental phenomena has been set out at great length and in great detail, but what has been set out there is only for those who are highly intelligent and who have specially grasped the Abhidhamma. It is not for the beginner in the practice of meditation. When one is prosecuting his studies in Buddhist literature, one should understand all the Teachings in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. However, when one is contemplating mental and physical phenomena for the purpose of acquiring vipassana-nana-dassana-sammaditthi (right view of anicca, dukkha and anatta through insight-wisdom), it is not necessary for one to know all that is contained in the Abhidhamma Pitaka. One should think out which suttanta-method among the methods declared in the Majjhima-nikaya and Samyutta-nikaya, is best suited for one's purpose and should try and attain nama-rupa-pariggaha-nana by that method. In doing so, he should first get instructions from a competent kammatthana teacher who has already attained nama-rupa-pariggaha- nana. Otherwise, if he simply depends on his intellectual power and contemplates as he pleases, he may be able to achieve the desired goal only after a very long period, or may not be able to achieve that goal at all. - kel 40677 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Thu Jan 6, 2005 10:57pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi Ken, > My two cents worth: The Buddha taught satipatthana (including > vipassana) and only satipatthana. Kel: I think when you say only satipatthana, it's not proper use of the name and reference which can cause some confusion. I agree Buddha always taught the same thing, Dhamma. > Conceptualising can never amount > to satipatthana, and so, undeniably, the Buddha never taught it - > not even for a fraction of a second. Kel: I don't think i want to start the discussion what is concept and what is not and how it applies to the practice, one thread is enough :) .. I'm definitely not advocating sitting somewhere and thinking really hard as a way to get enlightenment. However let's see what Buddha is telling us. Since you like maha-satipatthana sutta, here's a link to the section about cessation of dukkha. http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/mahasati17.htm Buddha would describe something and end the stanza with "When this craving is abandoned it is abandoned there; when it ceases, it ceases there." Similar to senses, he talks about abandoning craving for initial thinking (vitakka) and continued thinking (vicara) in the last two parts. Now, go to: http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/mahasati18.htm Right Concentration? Here (in this teaching), bhikkhus, a bhikkhu being detached from sensual desire and unwholesome states attains and dwells in the first jhana which has vitakka and vicara; and rapture (piti) and sukha born of detachment (from the hindrances).note112 With the subsiding of vitakka and vicara, a bhikkhu attains and dwells in the second jhana, with internal tranquility and one-pointedness of mind, without vitakka and vicara, but with rapture and sukha born of concentration. Already in the second jhana (3rd jhana in Abhidhamma pitaka categorization), you're without both parts of "thinking" process. Yet it is not enough for enlightenment, it is however part of desirable concentration factor. It doesn't have to do with developing wisdom at all which is what liberates us. So just like Buddha didn't advocate destroying the sense-doors, he doesn't advocate "no thinking". Merely to cut off the craving based on those objects using wisdom. I think the spirit is similar `appamattaka.m pi bhava.m na va.n.nemi', he's extolling the need to rid of the craving manifested as thinking of life/existence since life has no value. - kel 40678 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 0:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Apologies Hi Dan and James, Sarah is not alone in interpreting the Brahmajala Sutta the way she does. Until now, I had never heard of its being interpreted any other way. The very first Buddhist book I ever owned ("What the Buddha Really Taught " by David Maurice) says, "The Buddha, in the Discourse of the Supreme Net, showed that there are sixty-two of these 'views' and that there cannot be more than those he classified. They are all there, existentialism and all. . . ." Perhaps the onus is on you, James, to explain why existentialism and objectivism are not caught-up in the Supreme Net. Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dan D." wrote: > > > > When I saw that quote, I thought: "Hmmm... so Brahmajala really DOES > refer to the views of bhikkhus of the past and future, ALL bhikkhus." > But, really, the "past...future" are referring to views about the > past and future rather than bhikkhus in the past and future and > the "all of them" refers to views about the past and future, and not > about past and future bhikkhus. The quote does not at all address > James' suggestion that the sutta discusses only the views held by > bhikkhus at that time and not all views. But I think you are right, > Sarah, that the sutta is universal. 40679 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Idle chatter- Andrew L Hi Andrew L, --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > In my previous post I did not see your source, so if it has some > credibility then just please try to make it clear how it defines the > four unwholesome types of speech, in part by their opposites, as the > Buddha described them to laypeople in numerous discourses, because > what you wrote seems like it has one mixed up with the other. …. S: Excellent and you’re perfectly correct, I believe. I was also wondering while I typed, but it is your posts that have sent me back to check more carefully. As I mentioned, the extract was from the English translation of the Atthasalini, which is the commentary to the Dhammasangani, the first Text of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. (Phil also gave a quote from it recently #40606). It’s full of good detail, but unfortunately the English translation doesn’t give any Pali terms. Actually, I’ve had this text for 30 years, but it’s only now with your help that I see there is some confusion here in the English translation on these pages (pp132, 133) . Like you, I think that most (if not all?) of the para I quoted should come under ‘Slander’ which preceded it. I’m not sure why ‘Frivolous Talk’ is mentioned here and I tried to check the Pali text, but wasn’t able to find the right place.*** On the next page after the description and detail on ‘harsh speech’, there is another para on ‘frivolous talk’ which I think you’ll have no problem with. “Immoral volition producing the bodily and vocal effort to communicate useless things, is termed ‘frivous talk’. Its offence is great or small according as it is practiced repeatedly or not. The two constituent factors of this offence are: the inclination towards useless talk – like the stories of the fight of the Bhaaratas and the abduction of Siita , etc – and the narration of such themes. But the offence does not run through the full course of action {S: kamma-patha which is likely to bring results] when others do not accept the story; it does so only when they accept it.” I’d like to stress again that kamma here is the unwholesome cetana (intention) of the degree which can bring results. It is not the words themselves that constitute the act and this is stressed in the comy note to the Sabbasava Sutta. One can enquire after someone’s health or family or almost any topic with kusala or akusala cittas. I had a discussion here with a friend about exchanging greetings and pleasantries which he felt were a waste of time, but we read that even the Buddha exchanged greetings, ‘courteous and amiable talk’ with lay people who came to visit him. When it’s with metta and other wholesome mental states, it’s not ‘idle chatter’, no matter the topic. OK, I’ll add the Sabbasava, MN2, line and cmy note again: “An untaught ordinary person…….attends to those things unfit for attention and he does not attend to those things fit for attention.” BB note:“MA makes the important point that there is no fixed determination in things themselves as to whether they are fit or unfit for attention. The distinction consists rather, in the mode of attention. That mode of attention that is a causal basis for unwholesome states of mind should be avoided, while that mode of attention that is a causal basis for wholesome states should be developed.” .... As we’ve been discussing, cittas are momentary and satipatthana can be developed at any time of any reality, even that of wrong intention. Right Speech as a path factor is the momentary abstaining from wrong speech which accompanies Right Understanding and Awareness etc. Actually in the previous section in the Atthasalini,under ‘harsh specch’, there’s a good example of how it is the intention rather than the words that count(excuse my jumping around here as I write): “For though parents sometimes say thus to their children: ‘May thieves cut you up into pieces!’ yet they do not wish even a lotus leaf to fall on them. Teachers and spiritual guides sometimes say of their pupils: ‘What are we to do with these shameless, reckless lads? Turn them out!’ and yet they wish that they may attain and accomplish. But as words are not harsh if the heart be tender, so are they not gentle, just because speech is soft. The words of one desirous of killing: “let him sleep in comfort!’ are not soft; because of the harshness of thought the words are harsh.” .... So I think all the quotes you give in your other post are very pertinent as long as we remember that it is the intention rather than the words that we’re looking at here. And we can only know those intentions for ourselves with the development of satipatthana. We cannot know for the others. Here’s another quote from DN1, The Brahmajala Sutta, Short section on Morality. Bodhi transl: “Having abandoned idle chatter, the recluse Gotama abstains from idle chatter. He speaks at the right time, speaks what is factual, speaks on the good, on the Dhamma, on the Discipline. His words are worth treasuring: they are timely, backed by reasons, definite, connected with the good.” The commentary stresses that here ‘idle chatter’ is the unwholesome volition occasioning the bodily or vocal effort to communicate something useless. It is less blameworthy when indulgence is mild, more blameworthy when indulgence is great. It then stresses the same two components as given above. Thanks again for the helpful passages you provided. I haven’t forgotten our other thread. Metta, Sarah ***If anyone can help me find the Pali or add any comments on it, I’ll be glad. (I have the Atth in Pali, but the numbering is all different, just a ref would help) =========================== 40680 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 1:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: Apologies Friend Ken H., --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > Hi Dan and James, > > Sarah is not alone in interpreting the Brahmajala Sutta the way she > does. Until now, I had never heard of its being interpreted any > other way. The very first Buddhist book I ever owned ("What the > Buddha Really Taught " by David Maurice) says, "The Buddha, in the > Discourse of the Supreme Net, showed that there are sixty-two of > these 'views' and that there cannot be more than those he > classified. They are all there, existentialism and all. . . ." > > Perhaps the onus is on you, James, to explain why existentialism and > objectivism are not caught-up in the Supreme Net. > > Ken H Friend Ken H., The `onus' is on me, huh? Well, that's a rather nasty word ;-). What would you propose I do- go through all 62 views, one-by-one, and show why they aren't Existentialism? Why should I do that? All one needs to do is read the Brahmajala Sutta, without reading any commentary, and it will become clear that the Buddha is describing the views of ascetics and Brahmins of his time period. He even goes into detail as to why they each formed their particular views and what specific names they are given (and he doesn't list `Existentialism' ;-)). At no point does he state that he has explained all wrong views for all times. Of course, Ken H, you are going to be able to find a lot of secondary sources which state that the Brahmajala Sutta is about all wrong views because that is what the commentary states. Here is one source which states the opposite (not that my source or your source really prove anything): "The Brahmajala Sutta is the very first text in the Sutta Pitaka of the Pali canon and one of the important discourses spoken by the Buddha. Brahmajala Sutta is "the discourse on the all-embracing net of views''. The Buddha's aim in expounding this discourse is to elaborate on a ''net'' of all possible views / opinions / beliefs / philosophical ideas / speculative thought of His time." http://www.buddhanet.net/bvk_study/bvk214.htm Metta, James 40681 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 1:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Idle chatter- Andrew L Hi Kelvin, --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > S: For example, as we use the phrase conventionally, we may > chatter about > > the weather, computers, clothes or any other topic. Usually it's > with > > lobha, dosa or moha and thereby akusala (unwholesome), but not of > a degree > > that the cetana/kamma (intention) involved can lead to any > results. > > .... > > > "But when there is no rupture among others, the offence does not > amount to > > a complete course [S: i.e complete kamma patha likely to bring > results]; > > it does so only when there is a rupture. > > When you say result, are you including all the unprofitable result > minds? Or is this talking about rebirth-linking quality result? …. S: Good Question! A deep topic. As I understand: It is not a ‘complete course’ which can bring about rebirth consciousness and other results (vipaka) if all factors are not fulfilled. If some factors are fulfilled, but not all, there can be results, but not of the degree of rebirth-linking and other associated vipaka. (See kamma-patha in U.P)*. For example, unwholesome intentions during dreams can apparently bring results in the present life only, I believe. If the factors listed for kamma-patha are not in place at all such as in this case, intention to cause rupture, effort, communication, and rupture, then there is no kamma-patha and no results at all. Glad for any comments. Btw, I’m appreciating your discussion with Herman v.much , like in #40632 “Arahants still strive to spread dhamma, just don’t have any attachments to the outcome.” More to discuss with you and Andrew L on satipatthana next week I think. Especially important to stress there’s no ‘I’ to do anything or to have sati or panna as Nina stressed at the end of her last Vism post on feelings. “the words ‘I feel’ are merely a conventional expression…..’ etc. (Sorry, out of time to add more now.) Rt understanding, rt thinking etc of course arise together and condition each other as given in the AN1 sutta as I read it. I look f/w to the further discussions. Must dash, Metta, Sarah *I forget if it was you or someone else who wished for more on ‘sobhana’ – also see in U.P. It’s being updated, so possibly check again in a couple of weeks. ========= 40682 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 3:38am Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi Kelvin, ------------- KH: > > The Buddha taught satipatthana (including vipassana) and only satipatthana. > > Kel: I think when you say only satipatthana, it's not proper use of the name and reference which can cause some confusion. I agree Buddha always taught the same thing, Dhamma. -------------- On DSG, many of us are in the habit of using "satipatthana" to describe a moment of right understanding in which a paramattha dhamma is the object of consciousness. That is the meaning of patipatti (practice in accordance with the Dhamma) and of pativedha (penetration of the Dhamma). Conceptual right understanding (pariyatti) is not the way out of samsara (although it can eventually lead to it). The Buddha did not teach conceptual right understanding. Therefore, whenever we uninstructed worldlings experience conceptual right understanding we must be humble and modest - we have not begun to see the true Dhamma. ---------------- KH: > > Conceptualising can never amount > to satipatthana, and so, undeniably, the Buddha never taught it - > not even for a fraction of a second. > > Kel: I don't think i want to start the discussion what is concept and what is not and how it applies to the practice, one thread is enough :) .. ---------------------------- :-) When it comes to 'concepts versus realities,' too much discussion is never enough! -------------- K: > I'm definitely not advocating sitting somewhere and thinking really hard as a way to get enlightenment. --------------- This is where you lose me, Kel. I am not aware of any discussion in which 'thinking really hard' has been advocated as a way to get enlightenment. Do you mean 'concentrating on concepts?' If so, I know what you mean: concentrating on concepts (formal meditation) is not satipatthana: it is not the way to get enlightenment. * --------------------------- K: > However let's see what Buddha is telling us. Since you like maha-satipatthana sutta, here's a link to the section about cessation of dukkha. ---------------------------- Sorry, Kel, I couldn't follow the point you were making in the snipped bit. I'm sure the fault is mine, not yours. I will pick up where you write: ---------------------- > So just like Buddha didn't advocate destroying the sense-doors, he doesn't advocate "no thinking". Merely to cut off the craving based on those objects using wisdom. I think the spirit is similar `appamattaka.m pi bhava.m na va.n.nemi', he's extolling the need to rid of the craving manifested as thinking of life/existence since life has no value. > -------------- That sounds right to me. But what did you think of my interpretation of the two suttas under discussion? (I am not claiming to understand suttas without commentaries, I am just suggesting a possible interpretation.) Do you agree that conceptualising is not satipatthana? It is, at best, pariyatti, but it is not the practice taught by the Buddha. Kind regards, Ken H * Actually, I don't think we agree at all on the subject of formalised meditation (imitation bhavana). Like Htoo, you are a genius in Abhidhamma but you are still missing the point. (No offence intended.) KH 40683 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 5:41am Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence Dear Dhamma Friends, There are 25 sobhana cetasikas or 25 beautiful mental factors. There are 59 sobhana cittas or 59 beautiful consciousness. When magga cittas arise in the vicinity of different jhana in their power lokuttara cittas or supramundane consciousness are counted as (8 >< 5 Jhana) 40 lokuttara cittas instead of 8 lokuttara cittas. In that case there will be 121 total cittas. Among 121 total cittas 91 cittas are sobhana cittas or beautiful consciousness. 'Paapaahetuka muttaani, sobhanaaniiti vuccare. Ekuunasatthi cittaani, athekanavutiipi va.' 'Paapa' here means 12 akusala cittas or 12 unwholesome consciousness. 'ahetuka' here means 18 ahetuka cittas or 18 rootless consciousness. 'Paapaahetuka' means 12 akusala cittas and 18 ahetuka cittas altogether 30 cittas. They are asobhana cittas or non-beautiful consciousness. 12 akusala cittas are ugly no doubt. But regarding 18 ahetuka cittas not all 18 cittas are ugly. But they all are not beautiful as they do not have any beautiful root dhammas or hetus like alobha, adosa, and amoha. Muttaani means 'free' 'leaving out these'. So after leaving all these 30 asobhana cittas there left sobhana cittas only. Sobhanaaniti is made up of 'sobhana' and 'iti'. Sobhana here means 'sobhana cittas' and iti means 'such' 'like' 'as'. Vuccare means 'should say' 'should assume'. After leaving asobhana cittas, the remaining cittas should be assumed as sobhana cittas. 'Ekuunasatthi' is made up of 'eka' 'uuna' 'satthi'. Eka means 'one' 'single' 'a'. Una means 'minus' 'deduction' 'reduction' and satthi means 'sixty'. So ekuunasatthi means 'one reducing from sixty' or '59'. So There are 59 sobhana cittas. Athekanavuttiipi is made up of 'atha' 'eka' 'navuti' 'pi'. Atha means 'another way' 'moreover' 'besides'. Eka means 'one'. Atheka means 'in another way'. Navuti means 'ninety' and 'pi' means 'such' 'like this'. There are 59 sobhana cittas. Moreover, in the another way to speak there are 91 sobhana cittas. Sobhana cittas = ( 89 total cittas - 30 asobhana cittas) = 59 Sobhana cittas = (121 total cittas - 30 asobhana cittas) = 91 These 59 cittas or 91 cittas have been explained in detail in Dhamma Thread series old posts. There are 25 sobhana cetasikas or 25 beautiful mental factors. Because they accompany sobhana cittas or beautiful consciousness. They are 19 sobhanasaadhaarana cetasikas, 3 virati cetasikas, 2 appamanna cetasikas and 1 pannindriya cetasika. 19 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 25 sobhana cetasikas. 19 sobhanasadharana cetasikas are as follow. In Dhamma Thread I use the similes of 2 forces of the king. The king has 2 forces. One is army and another is navy. Here the king is 'citta' and members of forces are cetasikas. Army 1. saddha (general) 2. hiri (leutinent-general) 3. ottappa(leutinent-general) 4. sati (secretary) 5. cittapassaddhi (soldier) 6. cittalahuta (soldier) 7. cittamuduta (soldier) 8. cittakammannata(soldier) 9. cittapagunnata (soldier) 10.cittujukata (soldier) Navy 1. saddha (admiral) 2. alobha (rear-admiral) 3. adosa (rear-admiral) 4. tatramajjhattata (secretary) 5. kayapassaddhi (soldier) 6. kayalahuta (soldier) 7. kayamuduta (soldier) 8. kayakammannata (soldier) 9. kayapagunnata (soldier) 10.kayujukata (soldier) This is for memory and saddha is repeated. Actually saddha is the leader of both forces. Without saddha cetasika no sobhana citta can arise. All these 19 cetasikas have been explained in Dhamma Thread posts. 3 virati cetasikas are 1. kayaducarita virati / samma-kammanta 2. vaciducarita virati / samma-vaca 3. dujiva virati / samma-ajiva Virati means 'avoidance'. Carita is habit, actions. Du means bad. Jiva here means 'livelihood'. 2 appamanna cetasikas are 1. karuna 2. muduta Appamanna means 'limitless' 'boundless'. These 2 cetasikas are for boundless or limitless beings. 1 pannindriya cetasika It is panna. It is amoha. It is pannidriya cetasika. In terms of hetu pannidriya cetasika become 'amoha'. It is called amoha hetu. It is not called panna hetu. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40684 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 5:51am Subject: Re: what is higher dhamma, abhidhamma? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi All, > > > Knowing that the Higher Dhamma is already in the suttas, all > > Buddhists, who previously did not believe in the suttas, should > > I just wanted to point out a link for writings by Ledi Sayadaw: > http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL03.html > Section: How to Acquire Nama-rupa-pariggaha-nana. ...snip...a very long period, or may not be able to achieve > that goal at all. > - kel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Kel, Could you please explain on the word 'pariggaha'. In your message it appeared twice and this cannot be flaw. What I have heard is 'nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana' and 'paccaya- pariggaha-nana'. But I have not heard 'nama-rupa-pariggaha-nana'. With much respect, Htoo Naing 40685 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 6:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Htoo - > > In a message dated 1/6/05 1:14:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Howard wrote: > > > > Howard: > > Ah, but how did Ven. Culapanthaka Thera even understand what > > his brother was telling him to do without concepts? > > -------------------------------------- > > Htoo: > > > > That is where pannatti did not work. > > > ==================== > I made a mistake in what I wrote. (Sorry.) I meant to write "Ah, but > how did Ven. Culapanthaka Thera even understand what THE BUDDHA was telling him > to do without concepts?" Even simple instruction involves concepts. > > With metta, > Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Howard, You made me smile. While Venerable Mahapanthaka put his brother Culapanthaka Thera on conceptual knowledge, The Buddha did not teach him any concept. This is the point why I said Culapanthaka Thera's attainment is through paramattha dhamma and not via the path of pannatti. That is learing in theory first followed by practical and so on. I do not argue that pannatti are useless. Pannatti serve as vehicle. Medicinal solutions are liquid. They are medicine mixed up with vehicle to be taken by sick people. Patients are taking medicine. No one will think that vehicle or solvent is taken along with medicine contents. When you and I are communicating our words are vehicle. When The Buddha instructed Culapanthaka The Buddha use vehicle or pannatti to bring the meaning right down to understanding of Culapanthaka. But WHAT I SAID is not that of 'communicating words'. ''-- Come on Culapanthaka. This is citta, this is cetasika, this is rupa, this is cakkhuvinnana, etc etc are not conceptualized--'' Culapanthaka had a great akusala in his past lives and that akusala caused him very unintelligent. If he is taught more than a few sentence all will be forgotten. The Buddha knew his potentials and ripeness. 'Rajo haranam' is just a vehicle. It is to micmic teaching. Culapanthaka would think 'rajo haranam' is the teaching. Still he did not foret it as it is so short to forget. But his enligghtenment is not through 'Rajo haranam'. But by 'seeing the change in colour of the cloth' and in a matter of in that single morning he attained arahatta magga nana along with all jhanas and abhinnas. Our focus is not the same at this time. You started with 'attainment cannot be achieved without pannatti' and I replied that there are exceptional cases. In you reply now you focus on 'The Buddha instruction to Culapanthaka' the whole of which is pannatti. Yes it is pannatti. But what I reply was Culapanthaka was not taught any conceptual dhamma for his attainment. I hope this is clear to you, Howard. With much respect, Htoo Naing 40686 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 6:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > In a message dated 1/6/2005 11:51:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, > upasaka@a... writes: > I made a mistake in what I wrote. (Sorry.) I meant to write "Ah, but > how did Ven. Culapanthaka Thera even understand what THE BUDDHA was telling > him > to do without concepts?" Even simple instruction involves concepts. > > With metta, > Howard > > Yes Yes. Yes. That's exactly the point!!! > > TG > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear TG and Howard, I have replied to Howard and please see the details of reply there in that post. I did catch the point. But the original point was another. With Metta, Htoo Naing 40687 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What the mind does, sutta Hi Steve and Kelvin, Where is this sutta taken from and who translated it? I would like to know this. It does not fit the Pali. I did not follow all of your thread, but here is my attempt. See below. op 06-01-2005 14:58 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: former translation: 320. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of excreta smells and should be > got rid of, I do not specify thinking even for the fraction of a > second. > > 321. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of urine, saliva, pus, blood > smells and should be got rid of, I do not specify thinking{1) even > for the fraction of a second. ================================= Nina's translation: words: va.n.neti : to explain, praise. bhava: birth, becoming, life. > Pali: > 320. Seyyathaapi,bhikkhave, appamattakopi guutho duggandho hoti; >Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of excreta has a bad smell, evameva.m kho aha.m, bhikkhave, appamattakampi bhava.m na > va.n.nemi, antamaso accharaasa"nghaatamattampi. evenso do I not praise life even for a very short time, not even for the duration of a fingersnap (accharaasa"nghaata). > 321. Seyyathaapi,bhikkhave, appamattakampi mutta.m duggandha.m hoti > appamattakopi khe.lo duggandho hoti appamattakopi pubbo duggandho hoti appamattakampi lohita.m duggandha.m hoti; Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of urine, saliva, pus, blood has a bad smell, evameva.m kho aha.m, bhikkhave, appamattakampi bhava.m na va.n.nemi, antamaso > accharaasa"nghaatamattampi. evenso do I not praise life even for a very short time, not even for the duration of a fingersnap. The Commentary, summary (not a word by word translation): > Atthakatha: > 320. Seyyathaapi, bhikkhave, appamattakopi guutho duggandho hotiiti > ida.m sutta.m a.t.thuppattiya.m vutta.m. Katara-a.t.thuppattiyanti? > Navakanipaate (a. ni. 9.12) sattuppaadasutta a.t.thuppattiya.m. Co refers to Gradual Sayings, Book of the Nines (9, 12). Pali: Tathaagato hi ta.m attha.m kathento nava puggalaa nirayato > muttaa, tiracchaanayonito muttaa, pettivisayato muttaati kathesi. N: Here the Buddha speaks about nine people who will not have an unhappy rebirth, in hell, in an animal womb, as a ghost. Pali: Athassa etadahosi sace kho pana me puttaa ima.m > dhammadesana.m sutvaa khii.nanirayamhaa khii.natiracchaanayonikaa khii.napettivisayaa > khii.naapaayaduggativinipaataati ma~n~namaanaa > uparimaggaphalatthaaya vaayamitu.m na ma~n~neyyu.m, N: If my sons hear this teaching they shall think that since they are freed from those unhappy rebirths they need not strive for the highest path and fruit (of arahatship), tesa.m sa.mvega.m janessaamiiti sa.mvegajana nattha.m seyyathaapi, > bhikkhaveti ima.m suttamaarabhi. N: I shall generate a sense of urgency (sa.mvega) in them with the sutta, beginning with Pali: Tattha appamattakoti thokamattako parittappamaa.no, antamaso kusaggenapi gahetvaa upasi"nghiyamaano duggandhova hoti. N: Thus, when they sniffing up those smells for only a very short moment from the tip of a blade of grass that they have taken, it is indeed a bad smell. Pali: Appamattakampi bhava.m na va.n.nemiiti > appamattakampi kaala.m bhave pa.tisandhi.m na va.n.nayaami. I do not praise life even for a short time, be it even the moment of rebirth. Pali: Idaanissa upama.m dassento aaha antamaso > accharaasa"nghaatamattampiiti. N: Thus I show this simile and I say, not even for the duration of the snipping of the fingers. Pali: Sabbantimena paricchedena dve > a"nguliyo ekato katvaa pahara.namattampi kaalanti vutta.m hoti. N: the time it takes to put two fingers together and snip them. Pali: Sesa.m sabbattha uttaanatthamevaati. N:All the rest is evident. Remark: the Buddha shows the disadvantage of rebirth which has a bad smell. He exhorts herewith the monks to strive for the end of rebirth. Nina. 40688 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Dear Tep, op 07-01-2005 03:11 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: Lodewijk is a wise man. His words remind me of a sutta that says > even a newborn baby has latent tendencies (anusaya?). So it makes > sense to talk about effects that are produced by accumulations of > akusala from the previous lives. But what about bad "habits" that are > being created everyday? Is a bad habit latent tendency too? N: someone may use coarse speech all the time. The akusala citta with dosa or aversion that motivates this falls away but the aversion is added to the accumulated aversion more and more. This motivates again coarse speech, it has become a bad habit. We read that even an arahat who had as a brahmin to use deprecating speech to those of a lower caste, could not abandon this habit. It is called vasana. He had no akusala citta but still this accumulation. Only Buddhas have eradicated vasana. >> T: It is sad that even "noble" speech and deeds are not truly noble. > According to the Abhidhamma, are impure hidden motives caused > mainly by conceit? Or by tanha? N: When the akusala citta arises it is not ahidden motive or latent tendency, but motivate by it. All sorts of latent tendencies, not only conceit and clinging motivate akusala citta. Also dosa, wrong view, etc. > > N: What type of citta is thinking of progress? > > T: I do not know what kind of citta thinks of progress. But can we make > progress (e.g. accumulating more and more kusala dhamma) without > thinking about "our progress" or "who makes the progress"? I think we > can. N: I agree, it is in accordance with the teachings. As the Buddha said, it can be done. N: Sati and panna are sobhana (beautiful) dhammas, accompanying > sobhana citta. Here the Abhidhamma can prevent us from going into > pitfalls. > > T: What are the pitfalls? I wish I could understand exactly what you > meant above, Nina! Since most DSG members are familiar with > sobhana citta, may I ask you to just give me a Web link to the source > of this subject matter? N: When we really understand that sati and pañña are sobhana cetasikas that arise because of conditions, which are: listening, study, considering, application in life, it helps us not to take them for self. They are dhammas, not me. The pittfall is the second noble Truth all the time. Before we realize it. There is no specific web link, only the India talks life that Jon uploaded. Sarah can give you the link again. Nina. 40689 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 6:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: what is higher dhamma, abhidhamma? Dear Tep, op 07-01-2005 04:27 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > Knowing that the Higher Dhamma is already in the suttas, all > Buddhists, who previously did not believe in the suttas, should prioritize > their study on the Vinaya Pitaka and the Sutta Pitaka. They don't even > have to study the difficult Abhidhamma Pitaka at all. N: Of course, it is very difficult to read the whole Abhidhamma Pitaka. The Abhidhammattha Sangaha (transl as the Guide) is good as a beginning. Then we learn the main principles of citta, cetasika and rupa in daily life. We study those in order to understand them. Also the Visuddhimagga, this is an encyclopedia of the Abhidhamma. Today dana, generosity is very much in our minds. We should learn what type of citta gives: is there a wish for some gain for ourselves? Is there conceit: I am the giver, he is the receiver? There can be purity of citta when we think only of the wellbeing of the receiver, wish him well. Understanding one's citta, that is Abhidhamma. People are inclined to think of books when they hear the word Abhidhamma. T: For those who aim > at practicing as soon as possible after the reading, they only have to > pay their utmost attention to no more than 20 suttas, N: It depends on people's inclinations what suttas they read. If we only say those twenty they may overlook the suttas on giving. There are so many sound advices for daily life, and, there is Abhidhamma contained in such advices. Knowing one's citta more. Citta, cetasika, rupa, that is Abhidhamma. They occur now. As to aiming at practising soon after the reading: let us combine reading, considering, and verifying in life, this is already a beginning. If one sets a time it seems like directing the citta. Nina. 40690 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 7:15am Subject: Dhamma Thread (219) Dear Dhamma Friends, The fourth visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object' is ati-paritta- arammana or very faint object. The cittas that arise at this object are collectively called 'mogha vara'. Mogha means 'without value'. Because there is no vithi cittas in this vara. But it is counted in visaya-pavatti because there are 2 moments of bhavanga calana citta. After 10, or 11, or 12, or 13, or 14 or 15 atita bhavanga cittas have passed away there arise 2 successive bhavanga calana cittas or vibrating bhavanga cittas. At the end of 2nd bhavanga calana citta, there arise usual bhavnga cittas in flow continuously. After passing 10 atita bhavanga cittas there left 7 moments of life in rupa object. 1.bhavanga calana, 2. bhavanguppaccheda, 3. pancadvaravajjana, 4.pancavinnana 5. sampaticchana 6. santirana 7.votthapana There cannot arise 2 votthapana and so this is not the case. In stead there arise 1.atita bhavanga(11), 2. bhavanga calana, 3.bhavanga calana, 4.bhavanga(usual)12,5. bhavanga13 6.bhavanga14 7.bhavanga15 There are 6 possible varas. They are a) 10 bhavanga cittas, 11.calana, 12.calana, 13.bhavanga11 14.bhavanga12, 15.bhavanga13, 16.bhavanga14, 17.bhavanga15 b) 11 bhavangas, 12.calana, 13.calana 14.B12, 15.B13, 16.B14, 17.B15 c) 12 B, 13.calana, 14.calana, 15.B13, 16.B14, 17.B15 d) 13 B, 14.calana, 15.calana, 16.B14, 17.B15 e) 14 B, 15.calana15, 16.calana, 17.B15 f) 15 B, 16.calana, 17.calana These varas are called mogha vara as there is no vithi citta at all. But they do have bhavanga calana cittas which are the marker of disturbance that there arisen an object. So far there have beed discussed 4 visaya-pavatti. 1. ati-mahanta-arammana or very clear object 2. mahanta-arammana or clear object 3. paritta-arammana or faint object 4. ati-paritta-arammana or very faint object Actually these objects do not have to be very clear or clear or faint or very faint. It is the arising of vithi cittas and their number. This again is because they have to ground on vatthu. When there arise rupa-arammana or visual object but there is no cakkhu vatthu there cannot arise any vithi cittas. Likewise when vatthu is very weak full series of vithi cittas cannot arise. Example can be seen in marana-asanna-javana cittas. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40691 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 7:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Tep, > op 07-01-2005 03:11 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > Lodewijk is a wise man. His words remind me of a sutta that says > > even a newborn baby has latent tendencies (anusaya?). So it makes > > sense to talk about effects that are produced by accumulations of > > akusala from the previous lives. But what about bad "habits" that are > > being created everyday? Is a bad habit latent tendency too? > N: someone may use coarse speech all the time. The akusala citta with dosa > or aversion that motivates this falls away but the aversion is added to the > accumulated aversion more and more. This motivates again coarse speech, it > has become a bad habit. We read that even an arahat who had as a brahmin to > use deprecating speech to those of a lower caste, could not abandon this > habit. It is called vasana. He had no akusala citta but still this > accumulation. Only Buddhas have eradicated vasana. ...snip... link, only the India talks life that Jon uploaded. > Sarah can give you the link again. > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Tep and All, As Nina said only The Buddha can discard or eradicate vasana. Limping man will walk with limping even when he becomes an arahat. This is habit. A simile is here that there are defilements bottles. Arahats upside down the bottle and discard all the defilement. The Buddha is also an arahat and the first arahat. He also discards all defilements from the bottle. But arahatta bottles are like spirit bottles. Even though all spirit has been discarded there is smell. In case of The Buddha the bottle is like water bottle. When all defilements are discarded there is no more defilements at all. The bottle is now totally pure unlike other arahats' bottles. Those who speak fast will speak fast even after attainment of arahatta magga. With respect, Htoo Naing 40692 From: Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 2:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/6/05 11:44:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "I, on the other hand, say that a sight arises. The sight is the > experience, and the arising of it, it's becoming present, we call > "consciousness of the sight"." > > Hi Howard, > > I think our main difference is that I think of experience as being > consciousness and I can't imagine it being anything else. > --------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think that is where we differ. We have nothing *but* experiencing. Consciousness isn't something extra that is applied to an experience. An unexperienced experience [I don't just mean just subliminal, below one's current threshhold of registering] is a contradiction in terms and non-existent. In a sense, consciousness is the stage (or the screen) on which all experience occurs - EXCEPT, and this is important, the stage or screen doesn't exist without the show; in fact, it is the mere presence of the show, and the arising of (any frame of) the film-show and the arising of the screen are mutual and inseparable. The assumption of a consciousness-stage or consciousness-screen that exists independently of the show is a species of subjectivist eternalism. It is Sati's error, in fact. Of course, denying consciousness is an opposite error, tending towards a reifying of what is experienced. Because our perspectives are different slants on what is a non-dual phenomenon, each of our positions can, if pushed too far, one way or the other, be turned into either one or the other of these erroneous extremes. Your position is, I believe, more vulnerable to the eternalist extreme, and mine to the nihilist extreme, but at times these can switch places. ---------------------------------------------- > > Maybe the problem is a difference in what we mean by "object of > consciousness". I think of object of consciousness as being a reference > point rather than a specimen under the microscope. For example, when I > am angry there is no experienced object of that anger. The object is > there causally as a reference point but not in the moment of anger. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that at a moment of being angry, usually the anger is not arammana; it is only cetasika - it flavors the mindstate but is not the "object". But there are also mindstates in which it can be arammana - in fact, I suspect that there are mindstates in which anger is both arammana *and* cetasika. ---------------------------------------- > There is only one player on the stage and it is consciousness. > --------------------------------------- Howard: No, there is *no* player on the stage, except in one's atta-bound imagination. That is reification of the subject. The opposite extreme is reification of the object. Each of us is vunerable to each of these errors. --------------------------------------- You, on> > the other hand, seem to think that object and consciousness are both > there in experience like the inside and outside of a box. As I see it, > the problem with your formulation is that the object has a very nebulous > status. > --------------------------------------- Howard: Not at all. If anything, for me the "objective" content (for lack of a better word) takes priority, with consciousness being nothing more than its presence. There really is no subject. There really is no object. There is just experiential content and its presence, with those two being inseparable aspects of an experiential state. --------------------------------------- But I can see how this idea comes out of the Buddha's> > explanation of contact. > > Larry > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40693 From: Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing Hi, Matthew - In a message dated 1/7/05 12:18:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, bupleurum@y... writes: > Howard: > >What is doing the vibrating? I still think you are talking physics, > >not sound-door experience. > > Visuddhimagga says that "earsense" is one of the sense-organs, located > inside the ear "at a spot shaped like a finger-ring and fringed by > tender, tawny hairs." So I suppose that's what vibrating. ------------------------------------- Howard: I consider that to be one of those cases in which Buddhaghosa, the "champion of paramattha dhammas" confuses paramattha and samutti, confuses paramattha dhammas with pa~n~natti. And it isn't he who originated that. This actual-earsense-material-within-the-conventional-ear-organ notion originates in the Abhidhamma itself, I believe. --------------------------------------- > > Matthew =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40694 From: jwromeijn Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 7:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Dear Nina Thanks for your answers. You proposed me to read " The Roots of Good and Evil". I knew it already, as a long chapter in Nyanaponika's "The Vision of the Dhamma". And to be honest: I did not start to read this chapter because the concepts 'good' and 'evil' don't attract me (now). I prefer to read about 'emptiness' and 'the miracle of life' and prefer to read Nagarjuna or Nyanaponika's 'The four Sublime States' from the same book. Do you never read Mahayana texts? Another point, I first quote myself and then your reaction: J: Especially the lack of doubt by you and some other > dsg-contribuants gives me the most problems. Stating the complex > details of Abhidhamma without ever explaining how you get this > information, without any emperical reference, does not give me > inspiration, is only scholastic. N: I have to think this over and discuss with Lodewijk. It is understandable that you get such an impression. It would be helpful if you could give one concrete example. I could then work on that. I give an exemple. In # 40439, subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (212), submoments You wrote: " Dear Htoo, I could add something from my Thai translation to help here. 'The duration of rúpa when compared with the duration of citta is seventeen moments of citta. Rúpa does not fall away as quickly as citta. Citta can be subdivided into three infinitesimal moments, the moment of its arising, uppåda khaùa, the moment of its presence, tiììhi khaùa, and the moment of its falling away, bhanga khaùa. When we take this subdivision into account, rúpa lasts as long as three times seventeen, that is, fiftyone moments of citta.' Nina." This is to me a good example of what I don't like in Abhidhamma- discussions: a. 17 (and 51) are numbers, and numbers are only concepts, even when talking about a number of dhamma's. b. "time" itself is a concept too, I had started a thread about that some weeks ago: in an ultimate way it is an illusion. c. How do you, or commentators or even the composers of the Abhidhamma know that number, is it exactly 17.0 or perhaps 16.9 or 17.1 ? When such numbers are used as a ratio, it are empirical measured entities or they should not be used at all. d. Perhaps the number was 17.0 a 2500 year ago but has now changed in 10 or 25, how do we know it is not changed ? e. Using a commentary as a source of authority, in this case a Thai one, without convincing me that it deserves that authority. f. Perhaps it's an unimportant detail, but is it correct to say "rupa last as long ..", I prefer to talk in phenomenolocical way and prefer to say: "Rupa are experienced by a human being as long …" g. But the most important aspect: I already was convinced of the propertie (I like that term) of all dhammas that they are annica. What is the soteriological use of this kind of scholastic quasi- information? Metta Joop 40695 From: Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 2:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 1/7/05 9:12:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > > In you reply now you focus on 'The Buddha instruction to > Culapanthaka' the whole of which is pannatti. Yes it is pannatti. But > what I reply was Culapanthaka was not taught any conceptual dhamma > for his attainment. > > I hope this is clear to you, Howard. > ======================== I agree that the Buddha did not try to teach Buddhist concepts to him. He was too "slow" for that. The Buddha may even not have used any words with him. What he may well have done was merely show him the taking of a rag in the Buddha's hand, the rubbing of the rag with thumb and a finger or two, and then with gestures, indicate that Culapanthaka should take the rag and do the same with it. All that (possibly) wordless instruction involved a host of concepts. That is my point and TG's as well, I believe. We are immersed in concept, and the raison d'etre of concept is communication. It is indispensable for learning the Dhamma, not only in theory but in practice as well. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40696 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 8:25am Subject: [dsg] Re: what is higher dhamma, abhidhamma? Dear Nina - In the message # 40689, you wrote: > Understanding one's citta, that is Abhidhamma. > People are inclined to think > of books when they hear the word Abhidhamma. > As to aiming at practising soon after the reading: let us combine > reading, considering, and verifying in life, > this is already a beginning. If one sets a time > it seems like directing the citta. Thank you so much for preaching the Abhidhamma with the common sense of one who sees clearly. Because of you, the image of the "Abhidhamma books" in my mind is now replaced by the "Higher Dhamma" in the suttas. Further, the Sutta Pitaka and the Abhidhamma Pitaka have morphed into one meaningful whole -- the Dhamma of the Buddha. Kindest regards, Tep ===== 40697 From: Tep Sastri Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 8:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Nina, Tep and All, > > As Nina said only The Buddha can discard or eradicate vasana. > > Limping man will walk with limping even when he becomes an arahat. > This is habit. > > A simile is here that there are defilements bottles. Arahats upside > down the bottle and discard all the defilement. Dear Htoo - I very much appreciate reading your supplementary information about vasana as a non-erasable habit. Since all 7 anusayas are eradicated completely by the Arahat, because it is gone with no residue, it seems to me that the non-erasable vasana (like the Indian-ink stain on a piece of white cloth?) is not in the class of anusaya. It is not a kilesa either. It is not a kind of memory (perception, sanna) either, otherwise it would also be erased from the Arahat's citta (the smelly bottle)? How then should vasana be classified, according to the Abhidhamma point of view? What kind of ultimate reality is it? With deep respect, Tep ====== 40698 From: Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 4:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/7/2005 6:14:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: Htoo: Dear TG and Howard, I have replied to Howard and please see the details of reply there in that post. I did catch the point. But the original point was another. With Metta, Htoo Naing Hi Htoo Naing The original point was the same. The point being that concepts are stepping stones to understanding higher knowledge's. And how can you "step on a stone" that doesn't exist? How can it have any efficacy if it doesn't exist? I believe Howard has successfully shown that even in the most extreme case, a case that certainly doesn't apply to anyone in this group, concepts still played a roll. The incredible roll they play with folks actively studying Sutta, Abhidhamma, and related commentaries and subjects; and discussing those ideas with others in a group like this ... is virtually incalculable. There are some who have an idea that -- 'concepts don't play any roll in my practice.' Now someone may get to that point, but it still has a foundation partially built on concepts. I wanted to see if others might show me wrong, but haven't been shown yet. Nor has anyone answered how nonexistent concepts can have the power to affect states. For myself, I don't think discerning "realities" in the sense of -- 'what's more real than something else' is the theme of the Buddha's teaching. I don't think he cares if you think concepts are the most real or unreal things in the world. I think he wants you to break attachments that lead to suffering. Hey...if rubbing a cloth will do the job, that's fine with him! TG 40699 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 9:50am Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > > > > Dear Nina, Tep and All, > > > > As Nina said only The Buddha can discard or eradicate vasana. > > > > Limping man will walk with limping even when he becomes an arahat. > > This is habit. > > > > A simile is here that there are defilements bottles. Arahats upside > > down the bottle and discard all the defilement. > Dear Htoo - > I very much appreciate reading your supplementary information about > vasana as a non-erasable habit. Since all 7 anusayas are eradicated > completely by the Arahat, because it is gone with no residue, it seems > to me that the non-erasable vasana (like the Indian-ink stain on a piece > of white cloth?) is not in the class of anusaya. It is not a kilesa either. It is not a kind of memory (perception, sanna) either, otherwise it would > also be erased from the Arahat's citta (the smelly bottle)? > How then should vasana be classified, according to the Abhidhamma > point of view? What kind of ultimate reality is it? > With deep respect, > Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, It would fall under pannatti I think. With Metta, Htoo Naing > ====== 40700 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 11:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Idle chatter- Andrew L Dear Sarah, op 07-01-2005 10:10 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > Actually, I’ve had this text for 30 years, but it’s only now with your > help that I see there is some confusion here in the English translation on > these pages (pp132, 133) . Like you, I think that most (if not all?) of > the para I quoted should come under ‘Slander’ which preceded it. I’m not > sure why ‘Frivolous Talk’ is mentioned here and I tried to check the Pali > text, but wasn’t able to find the right place.*** N: I have the edition of 1958. Pinna said that the more recent one has changes. P. 132, above, I have a note, [2] after abuse, saying, this para should precede the previous one. Perhaps there is first some summing up, and then he goes deeper into the different kinds of wrong speech. Nina. 40701 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 11:46am Subject: Re: what is higher dhamma, abhidhamma? Saya Htoo, > > I just wanted to point out a link for writings by Ledi Sayadaw: > > http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL03.html > > Section: How to Acquire Nama-rupa-pariggaha-nana. > > ...snip...a very long period, or may not be able to achieve > > that goal at all. > > > > - kel > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Dear Kel, > > Could you please explain on the word 'pariggaha'. In your message it > appeared twice and this cannot be flaw. > > What I have heard is 'nama-rupa-pariccheda-nana' and 'paccaya- > pariggaha-nana'. But I have not heard 'nama-rupa-pariggaha-nana'. if you have time, I recommend reading the whole Dipani for the full explanation. I'll try to copy some excerpts as to the meaning of pariggaha. Under: Five Kinds of Sammi-ditthi Nama-rupa-pariggaha-sammaditthi (right view arising from full comprehension of the characteristics of the physical and mental phenomena of existence). under:Ati-olarika-ditthi And Ditthi-visuddhinana (very coarse atta- ditthi versus wisdom arising from clearness of view). [Note--Nama-rupa-pariggha-nana (wisdom arising from full comprehension of the characteristics of the physical and mental phenomena), namarupa-vavatthana-nana (wisdom in determining the physical and mental phenomena) and ditthi-visuddhi (wisdom arising from clearness of view) are the same. They are mere synonyms of nama- rupa-pariggaha- sammaditthi. With reference to this sammaditthi, it has been stated in the Paramattha-Sankhepa: 'The self-belief will be dispelled and clearness of view will arise if one can determine name and form (nama-rupa) with reference to their respective nature, function, essence, tendency (or propensity) and basis.] The two kinds of sammaditthi--nama-rupa-pariggaha-sammaditthi and hetu-paccaya-sammaditthi--are able to root out the coarse atta- ditthi which are actually or actively arising in beings. But they are not able to root out the subtle soul-beliefs that lie latent in beings, nor are they able to root out the tendency to sceptical doubt. This proclivity--the subtle soul-belief--is the root-cause or the seed of all wrong views. Sukhuma-atta-ditthi and Vipassana-nana (Subtle Soul-Belief And Insight-knowledge Arising from Practice of Meditation). When insight-knowledge has been gained by contemplating on anicca, dukkha and anatta, the subtle soul-belief and sceptical doubts are extinguished, but the extremely subtle soul-belief and the latent sceptical doubts will remain intact. Ati-sukhuma-atti-ditthi and Magga-phala-nana (extremely subtle soul- belief and the wisdom arising from the attainment of the holy path and the fruition thereof). When the sotapatti-magga-phala-sammaditthi (insight-knowledge arising from the path of stream-winner and the fruition thereof) which is the first of the four lokuttara-sammaditthi arises, the extremely subtle atta-ditthi and latent sceptical doubts are expelled. When soul-belief and sceptical doubts are dispelled completely, the evil and mean deeds that would cause one to arise in the four lower worlds or in the woeful course of existence are also completely extinguished. - kel 40702 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 0:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Dear Joop, op 07-01-2005 16:44 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: And to be honest: I did not start to read this chapter > because the concepts 'good' and 'evil' don't attract me (now). N: Could it be the words good and evil? The Buddha taught about kusala and akusala and how to eradicate akusala, how to cultivate kusala, all good qualities. Well, it depends on your interest. J: Do you never read Mahayana texts? N: I am interested in streams outside the Theravada, in other religions, but I have to limit myself. The Tipitaka and Commentaries are for me most effective. J: 'The duration of rúpa when compared with the duration of citta is > seventeen moments of citta....submoments, etc.... > > This is to me a good example of what I don't like in Abhidhamma- > discussions: > a. 17 (and 51) are numbers, and numbers are only concepts, even when > talking about a number of dhamma's. N: I understand. I knew that I addressed Htoo, since he understands details. But for many people these details go too far. This does not matter, we are all different individuals. The Thais had a discussion which I rendered, but it is all commentarial material. Actually, the number 17 makes sense when we consider one rupa as object experienced by a whole series of cittas. But you need not study so many details. When you reflect on your own citta which is different all the time since it is accompanied by then good qualities, then bad qualities (we come here again to the roots of good and evil), that is Abhidhamma. Abhidhamma is not a book you have to learn by heart. You do not have to remember numbers. That is not the essence of Abhidhamma. As to the commentaries: read them and see whether they help you to understand the Tipitaka. That is the only way to see what they are like. J: . But the most important aspect: I already was convinced of the > propertie (I like that term) of all dhammas that they are annica. > What is the soteriological use of this kind of scholastic quasi- > information? N:We can think in general terms about anicca, impermanence, but this will not change our life, our outlook. We have to understand first what dhamma is. Do we know? Dhamma is impermanent. That is: dhamma that appears now: seeing, colour, hardness. But these seem to last a while. It is insight that can directly realize their arising and falling away. Study of nama and rupa, of cittas arising in processes, basic principles of Abhidhamma can help us with the development of insight. Nina. 40703 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 0:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing Hi Howard, I do not think this is the case. The infinitely tiny rupa earsense is located somewhere in the body, and this is described here. Just like eyesense, in the middle of the black circle. This is not a matter fo confusing paramattha and samutti. Nina. op 07-01-2005 16:35 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I consider that to be one of those cases in which Buddhaghosa, the > "champion of paramattha dhammas" confuses paramattha and samutti, confuses > paramattha dhammas with pa~n~natti. 40704 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 0:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Dear Htoo and Tep, could we not say that it has to do with accumulations? Not the latent tendencies, but besides latent tendencies which are seven, there are many other qualities accumulated. Citta and cetasikas motivate the arahat to speak fast, or to use a coarse word. Nina. op 07-01-2005 18:50 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: Tep: How then should vasana be classified, according to the Abhidhamma >> point of view? What kind of ultimate reality is it? > Htoo: It would fall under pannatti I think. 40705 From: Egbert Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 0:59pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG, I am presuming you are not going to answer these questions, which is, of course, fine. I'll answer them myself :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > > Hi TG, > > I have some questions, if I may ? > > Hi Howard > > > > I'm not sure what point you mean to be making. It seems as if you > mean to disagree with me but your point only reinforces my > position. I.E., that concepts condition other states. > > HH> Are you sure that it is concepts that condition other states? Is > there not a possibility that there is a conditioning factor that > underlies the creation of concepts? I tend to think that concepts > are products of intention. Concepts do not condition anything. Just like air might be taken to sustain life, but it is not so, it is only a component present in air under most circumstances, namely oxygen. Intention leads to concept formation, and intention is the factor that conditions other states. Behind every concept is a knowable intention. > > > > Concepts are needed to understand the Dhamma (like training > wheels) at least until one can learn to "balance" without them. > Although it is possible to learn how to ride a bike without > training wheels, I don't think it is possible to > > learn Dhamma without concepts. > > HH> I don't think it is possible to learn Dhamma, but I do think > that Dhamma is what is left when samsara is unlearnt. Could you give me an example of learnt-by-concept Dhamma? No, I can't give myself an example of learnt-by-concept either :-). The Dhamma is not conceptual, and after the days of the Buddha direct hearing is not a possibility. The means of the transmission of the Tipitaka requires years and years of first learning to read, then learning to read Suttas, Vinaya, Commentaries, Abhidhamma etc etc. The Tipitaka is conceptual, and it is transmitted conceptually. It is not Dhamma. It is not effective in producing enlightenment, because the means is entirely contrary to the end. Sure, I accept that human communication is conceptual in nature, but is anyone here going to suggest that insight knowledge is conceptual? And that it's arising is conditioned by concept? Where's the evidence of that? Kind Regards Herman 40706 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 1:15pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Ken, > On DSG, many of us are in the habit of using "satipatthana" to > describe a moment of right understanding in which a paramattha Kel: I understand your statement better now. > Conceptual right understanding (pariyatti) is not the way out of > samsara (although it can eventually lead to it). The Buddha did not > teach conceptual right understanding. Therefore, whenever we > uninstructed worldlings experience conceptual right understanding Kel: I agree intellectual understanding is not the way out however it's a necessary stepping stone toward enlightenment. Buddha expounded on dhamma using concepts and illustrations for people will understand. He just showed how to use the intellect combined with experience to achieve the ultimate goal. If one doesn't understand the underlying concepts then the true wisdom is hopeless. Even paramattha dhammas you mentioned is not free of concepts, it's just a way of describing how the universe work. The true paramattha is nibbana since it's out of the whole universe of mind and matter phenonema as we experience it. The pannati versus paramattha categorization is just for convenience when discussing the philosophy. I have used my book-learning knowledge to guide my practice. Whatever experiences I go through I reconcile with what the teachers and Buddha taught to make sure i haven't strayed from the path. Many times at interviews I've heard other students immersed in flickering lights or visions during their sits. The ten imperfections of wisdom when properly observed without getting attached will pass away. However due to lack of the knowledge about them students chase these experiences fruitlessly. With strong samadhi, experiences of piti and sukha cause people to dwell instead of analyzing them properly. For bhanga, initially it feels like everything is gone and there's nothing left to note. Then after repeated penetration (without just noting nothingness), the mind is able to feel the underlying vibrations which were previously unexperienced so the mind couldn't comprehend at first. I think every practitioner pass through these road-blocks and intellectual knowledge allows one to overcome them easier. > Do you agree that conceptualising is not > satipatthana? It is, at best, pariyatti, but it is not the practice > taught by the Buddha. Kel: Even in patipatti, we use concepts or things in the mundane world to guide us to the truth. When you truly see the nature of concepts in terms of three signs that's when you arrive at paramattha. I don't see how Buddha can teach without concepts. He can't exactly show the truth directly to people. He explains how things work and tell people to go experience it for themselves thereby making it their own understanding. He also explains it in different ways depending on how different people think, hence you see the different break-downs of phenomena. I think this argument is similar to Howard's in "Concepts and Questions" thread. > genius in Abhidhamma but you are still missing the point. (No > offence intended.) kel: not offended but confused as to what point I'm missing. -kel 40707 From: Egbert Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 1:32pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Hi Joop, You wrote the following, and I could have written it too, but you wrote it more gently :-). Some more thoughts, below. > a. 17 (and 51) are numbers, and numbers are only concepts, even when > talking about a number of dhamma's. > b. "time" itself is a concept too, I had started a thread about that > some weeks ago: in an ultimate way it is an illusion. > c. How do you, or commentators or even the composers of the > Abhidhamma know that number, is it exactly 17.0 or perhaps 16.9 or > 17.1 ? When such numbers are used as a ratio, it are empirical > measured entities or they should not be used at all. > d. Perhaps the number was 17.0 a 2500 year ago but has now changed in > 10 or 25, how do we know it is not changed ? > e. Using a commentary as a source of authority, in this case a Thai > one, without convincing me that it deserves that authority. > f. Perhaps it's an unimportant detail, but is it correct to say "rupa > last as long ..", I prefer to talk in phenomenolocical way and prefer > to say: "Rupa are experienced by a human being as long …" > g. But the most important aspect: I already was convinced of the > propertie (I like that term) of all dhammas that they are annica. > What is the soteriological use of this kind of scholastic quasi- > information? > The Abhidhamma is a number of models of reality. At a certain point of involvement one can loose sight of the fact that it is only a model of reality, not reality. Just as with mathematics, you can start with a few basic axioms, and build a fantastic edifice of interrelations. Numbers end up having their own characteristics, and we may marvel at the properties of "pi", having forgotten that "pi" is a consequence of the model, without a necessary connection to reality. It is a necessary consequence of the model that cittas are serial in nature, and that 17 of one kind last the same duration as only 1 of another kind. If it were otherwise, the model would fall apart. Those relationships in the model that result from transcendental notions, remain unasaillable to verification or falsification. But where the model becomes specific, one can compare between reality and the model. In the case of a discrepancy, some will hasten to the defense of the model, assuming an error of observation or interpretation, while others will try to redefine the model in terms what is observed, or put forward another one. The actions of all camps are guided by intention, and if the intention is to have a model that explains more or better than other models, good and well. Of course, in Buddhism, the aim is not to have a better model of reality, although you could be forgiven for thinking that at times. Everybody has a model of reality, and most confuse between reality and their model. Model making is certainly a possibility, but definitely not a necessity. All the best Herman 40708 From: Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 8:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/7/2005 1:02:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: Sure, I accept that human communication is conceptual in nature, but is anyone here going to suggest that insight knowledge is conceptual? And that it's arising is conditioned by concept? Where's the evidence of that? Kind Regards Herman Hi Herman I guess on this we'll just endlessly disagree... for I would say that insight knowledge has a conceptual component and a conceptual foundation. There may be nothing more conceptually complex than the Sutta and Abhidahmma. If someone feels they need to study the concepts there-in to make progress toward insight...that's the conceptual component and foundation for insight. Does insight "itself" have a conceptual component? I would say it depends on the level of insight. If a mind is using concepts to try to deepen insight, it still has a conceptual component. If someone has a fully developed intuitive knowledge, i.e., an Arahat, they no longer have any use for concepts and they can discard them like "The Raft" that is no longer needed once the river is crossed. TG 40709 From: Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 8:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/7/2005 1:02:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: The Dhamma is not conceptual, and after the days of the Buddha direct hearing is not a possibility. The means of the transmission of the Tipitaka requires years and years of first learning to read, then learning to read Suttas, Vinaya, Commentaries, Abhidhamma etc etc. The Tipitaka is conceptual, and it is transmitted conceptually. It is not Dhamma. It is not effective in producing enlightenment, because the means is entirely contrary to the end. Hi Herman I missed this part. Very interesting. In it you admit the conceptual nature of the Tipitaka. And say it takes years and years of learning. Then it appears you say..."It is not effective in producing enlightenment." If its a necessary step in producing enlightenment, then enlightenment is dependent on it, and it has affect! It doesn't matter what "stage" it comes at, the fact is it structures the ability to achieve enlightenment. Those concepts ... ya gotta luv em! ;-) TG 40710 From: Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 8:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/7/05 3:37:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > I do not think this is the case. The infinitely tiny rupa earsense is > located somewhere in the body, and this is described here. Just like > eyesense, in the middle of the black circle. This is not a matter fo > confusing paramattha and samutti. > Nina. > op 07-01-2005 16:35 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >I consider that to be one of those cases in which Buddhaghosa, the > >"champion of paramattha dhammas" confuses paramattha and samutti, confuses > ================== Yes, we definitely disagree on this one, Nina. ;-) What is that "body" it is located in, Nina? There is, from the ultimate perspective, no such thing - is that not so? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40711 From: Egbert Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 1:55pm Subject: Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG, Gotta go soon, so I'll just quickly reply below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > In a message dated 1/7/2005 1:02:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, > hhofman@t... writes: > The Dhamma is not conceptual, and after the days of the Buddha > direct hearing is not a possibility. The means of the transmission > of the Tipitaka requires years and years of first learning to read, > then learning to read Suttas, Vinaya, Commentaries, Abhidhamma etc > etc. The Tipitaka is conceptual, and it is transmitted conceptually. > It is not Dhamma. It is not effective in producing enlightenment, > because the means is entirely contrary to the end. > > Hi Herman > > I missed this part. Very interesting. In it you admit the conceptual nature > of the Tipitaka. And say it takes years and years of learning. Then it > appears you say..."It is not effective in producing enlightenment." > > If its a necessary step in producing enlightenment, then enlightenment is > dependent on it, and it has affect! It doesn't matter what "stage" it comes at, > the fact is it structures the ability to achieve enlightenment. Those > concepts ... ya gotta luv em! ;-) > Yes, the Tipitaka is entirely conceptual. I would never confuse it with Dhamma, though. Unless I'm very much mistaken, you are putting forward that reading the conceptual Tipitaka is or can be a factor that produces enlightenment. Mmmmmmmmmm, I'll have all day to ruminate about :-) Catch U later Herman 40712 From: Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions In a message dated 1/7/2005 1:57:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: Yes, the Tipitaka is entirely conceptual. I would never confuse it with Dhamma, though. Unless I'm very much mistaken, you are putting forward that reading the conceptual Tipitaka is or can be a factor that produces enlightenment. Mmmmmmmmmm, I'll have all day to ruminate about :-) Catch U later Herman Hi Herman Not only am I putting this idea forward, the Buddha does. Of course, I've ripped off most of "my" ideas from him. ;-) And as you can see...the Buddha does call the teachings "Dhamma." “…when he gives ear (listens), he hears the Dhamma; having heard the Dhamma, he memorizes it and examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorized; when he has examined their meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those teachings; when he has gained a reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal springs up; when zeal springs up, he applies his will; having applied his will, he scrutinizes; having scrutinized, he strives; resolutely striving, he realizes with the body the ultimate truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom.â€? In this way, Bharadvaja, there is the discovery of the truth; in this way one discovers the truth; in this way we describe the discovery of the truth. But as yet there is no final arrival at truth.â€? … “The final arrival of truth Bharadvaja, lies in the repetition, development, and cultivation of those same things.â€? (The Buddha . . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 782, With Canki, Canki Sutta, #95) TG 40713 From: dharmabum253 Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 8:21am Subject: jhanas I've been confused on a particular point for some time and hope someone could offer me some of their personal experience or some scriptural reference. The traditional Theravadin stance on the jhanas is that absorption cannot be used for insight practice due to the mind's being too still to glean any insight. It is believed that phala cannot be realized with jhana. This has always seemed peculiar to me. Ajahn Brahmavamso, in his article Travelogue to the Jhanas, states that the fruit of jhana practice is phala. His reference here is to the Pasadika Sutta. I have also read elsewhere that the result of the mundane jhanas is rebirth in a desire realm, fine material realm, etc and that the fruit of jhana practice is not nirvana. Did the Buddha say this or does this cosmology only appear in Abhidhamma? I'd really appreciate any help anyone could give me. Peace, Dave 40714 From: Andrew Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 3:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Apologies --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > > Friend Ken H., > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" > wrote: > > > > Hi Dan and James, > > > > Sarah is not alone in interpreting the Brahmajala Sutta the way > she > > does. Until now, I had never heard of its being interpreted any > > other way. The very first Buddhist book I ever owned ("What the > > Buddha Really Taught " by David Maurice) says, "The Buddha, in the > > Discourse of the Supreme Net, showed that there are sixty-two of > > these 'views' and that there cannot be more than those he > > classified. They are all there, existentialism and all. . . ." > > [snip] > "The Brahmajala Sutta is the very first text in the Sutta Pitaka of > the Pali canon and one of the important discourses spoken by the > Buddha. Brahmajala Sutta is "the discourse on the all-embracing net > of views''. The Buddha's aim in expounding this discourse is to > elaborate on a ''net'' of all possible views / opinions / beliefs / > philosophical ideas / speculative thought of His time." > http://www.buddhanet.net/bvk_study/bvk214.htm Hello James and Ken H and others I'm coming in late on this one (and ill-prepared as usual). Has somebody had a look at Bhikkhu Bodhi's take? Apologies if you have already. This is from his Introduction the the Brahmajala Sutta: "... The wrong views mentioned by the Buddha [throughout the suttas] can be classified into three general categories: wrong views with fixed consequences (niyatamicchaditthi), speculative views (ditthigata) and personality view (sakkayaditthi) ... Speculative views include all metaphysical theories, religious creeds, and philosophical tenets concerning issues that lie beyond the reach of possible experiential verification. These views are not necessarily an obstacle to rebirth in the higher worlds, but in every case act as impediments to the path to liberation. All such views arise out of personality view, the fundamental belief in a self or ego-entity, which as the root of its more sophisticated philosophical elaborations is reckoned separately. The Brahmajala Sutta is an attempt at a methodical survey of the most populous of these three classes, the class of speculative views. The other two classes are not specifically mentioned in the sutta, yet they too are drawn in by implication. For the first class, wrong views with fixed consequences, rests its ethically disruptive tenets upon doctrinal presuppositions coming into purview of the Brahmajala's project, while the third, personality view, forms the seed out of which all speculations evolve ... The Brahmajala's claim to exhaustiveness is thundered out in the refrain which brings each section of the exposition to a close: 'outside of these there are none'. The title of the sutta further underscores this claim while the same idea is given concrete shape in the memorable simile with which the discourse ends. The scheme of sixty-two cases is a net ... [which] takes as its target not only those [philosophical theories] which were being formulated by the thinkers contemporary with the Buddha, or those which have come to expression in the course of man's intellectual history but all that are capable of coming to expression whether they have actually appeared or not ... Whether the sutta, in its present form, really does succeed in matching this claim is difficult to assess ..." Sorry for the abbreviating ... running out of time. So BB disagrees with James' source and he goes on to suggest that doubts about the sutta's claims (such as those expressed by James) *may* be the result of lack of insight into the range of the particular view under discussion. Food for thought. (-: Best wishes Andrew T 40715 From: Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 4:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Hi Howard, I'm still not understanding you. What is experience in dhamma terms? Larry ---------------------- H: "We have nothing *but* experiencing. Consciousness isn't something extra that is applied to an experience. An unexperienced experience [I don't just mean just subliminal, below one's current threshhold of registering] is a contradiction in terms and non-existent. In a sense, consciousness is the stage (or the screen) on which all experience occurs - EXCEPT, and this is important, the stage or screen doesn't exist without the show; in fact, it is the mere presence of the show, and the arising of (any frame of) the film-show and the arising of the screen are mutual and inseparable." 40716 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 4:48pm Subject: Re: Apologies Friend Andrew, Thank you so much for quoting from the introduction to Bhikkhu Bodhi's book on the Brahmajala Sutta. I don't have a copy, and Sarah suggested I get one (in her usual `school teacherly' way ;-)), so it is nice that you went to the effort to type out part of it. I normally don't disagree with anything BB writes, this is going to be the first time for me ;-), but I disagree when he writes about the metaphor at the conclusion of the Brahmajala Sutta: "The scheme of sixty-two cases is a net ... [which] takes as its target not only those [philosophical theories] which were being formulated by the thinkers contemporary with the Buddha, or those which have come to expression in the course of man's intellectual history but all that are capable of coming to expression whether they have actually appeared or not" Wow! That's a pretty big claim! Let's look at that section of the sutta: "Whatever ascetics and Brahmins who are speculators about the past or the future or both, having fixed views on the matter and put forth speculative views about it, these are all trapped in the net with its sixty-two divisions, and wherever they emerge and try to get out, they are caught and held in this net. Just as a skilled fisherman or his apprentice might cover a small piece of water with a fine-meshed net, thinking : `Whatever larger creatures there may be in this water, they are all trapped in the net, caught, and held in the net', so it is with all these : they are trapped and caught in this net." First, to my reading, the Buddha is talking specifically about ascetics and Brahmins. I introduced the modern views of Existentialism and Objectivism and neither of them was put forth by ascetics or Brahmins. Now, one could say, "Well, the Buddha meant `anyone' when he stated ascetics and Brahmins" but I don't buy that. The Buddha was typically very specific and meant exactly what he said. Secondly, I don't read anything in this metaphor about all speculative views that are "capable of coming to expression" as BB writes. Again, something is being read into this sutta that just isn't there in my opinion. Please, someone, anyone, quote to me (from the sutta itself) where the Buddha states that these 62 wrong views cover all wrong views for all times. I just don't see that anywhere in the sutta! Really, BB is just stating that it is IMPLIED by the title of the sutta, and the refrain of `there are no others', and the metaphor of the net, but something IMPLIED is not good enough for me, especially something of this magnitude. If I am going to believe it, it should be stated specifically by the Buddha in the sutta. Andrew: So BB disagrees with James' source and he goes on to suggest that doubts about the sutta's claims (such as those expressed by James) *may* be the result of lack of insight into the range of the particular view under discussion. James: Sure, I could go along and say that this sutta is universal, but I just don't see it in the sutta itself. What would be the point of doing that? Maybe this is because I lack insight, as you suggest Andrew, and that could be. I just have myself and the Buddha to count on, no one else. Metta, James 40717 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 6:45pm Subject: Re: Apologies Hi James, I know you like to rely on Buddha's original words for the most part. However, may I suggest reading this exposition on right view: http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL03.html I'll quote the part that attempts to define samana and brahmana, which is the sticky point for you. Though I'm not sure if it's enough to satisfy you: How virtuous practice can be impaired. If desire-to-do and energy to perform, what should be done and to avoid what should be refrained from do not arise in the minds of those people who hold the pubbekata-hetu view, they being, unable to perceive what is good and what is evil, remain without performing wholesome volitional actions which should be performed, and on the other hand perform unwholesome volitional actions which should be avoided. They having no mindfulness and self-restraint, their view cannot be a righteous samana-vada. In the world there are such conventional terms as "samana" (one endeavouring to extinguish the passions), "brahmana" (a person leading a pure, stainless and ascetic life), "virtuous people" and "people", because these are the people who perform what should be performed and avoid what should be avoided. The conventional terms of "righteous person", "persons leading a pure and stainless life" or a "sappairisa" (worthy man) cannot be applied to those who hold this pubbekata-hetu view, because to them there is no difference between what actions should be done and what should be refrained from, which courses of action are usually practised by householders, samanas and wise people alike. In reality, there are actions which should be refrained from. Some people do not always perform wholesome volitional actions which should be done, and do those evil actions which should be abstained from. Such people are called pakati-manussa (worldlings). Some people, having mindfulness and self-restraint, perform good actions and abstain from evil actions. They are called "samana", "brahmana", or "sappurisa". If one differentiates between these classes of people--evil ones and wise ones--he is said to maintain the right samana view or the right brahmana view. As the pubbekata-hetu view disclaims all present causes such as mindfulness, etc., and firmly believes in the volitional actions performed by beings in their past existences, only their view should be regarded as a wrong view. - kel 40718 From: Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/7/05 7:39:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I'm still not understanding you. What is experience in dhamma terms? > > Larry > ---------------------- > H: "We have nothing *but* experiencing. Consciousness isn't something > extra that is applied to an experience. An unexperienced experience [I > don't just mean just subliminal, below one's current threshhold of > registering] is a contradiction in terms and non-existent. In a sense, > consciousness is the stage (or the screen) on which all experience > occurs - EXCEPT, and this is important, the stage or screen doesn't > exist without the show; in fact, it is the mere presence of the show, > and the arising of (any frame of) the film-show and the arising of the > screen are mutual and inseparable." > > ====================== I'm afraid that I can't restate what I wrote any more clearly. I'm not sure I understand what you are looking for when you ask "What is experience in dhamma terms?" By an experience, speaking in ordinary language, I mean anything we are aware of. In Dhammic terms, an experience is a dhamma. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40719 From: Matthew Miller Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 7:38pm Subject: Re: Seeing & Hearing Nina wrote: > > I do not think this is the case. The infinitely tiny rupa > earsense is located somewhere in the body, and this is described > here. > An "infinitely tiny" thing somewhere in the body "shaped like a finger-ring and fringed by tender, tawny hairs"? Hmm. Sounds like a pretty darn good description of the cochlea of the inner ear. There is indeed a very tiny (though not "infinitely" tiny) area lined with so-called "hair cells" which are sensory cells topped with hair-like structures called stereocilia. When sound vibrates the hair cells they send nerve impulses to the brain, which are perceived as a sound of whatever pitch the hair cell is associated with. (Sorry Howard, I'm definitely indulging in physics here -- but it is quite remarkable that Buddhaghosa described this so accurately!) While we're hanging out inside the ear, one thing has always puzzled me... When describing the pasada rupas, why doesn't the abhidhamma include the sense of balance? Is balance-sense not a rupa, just like eye- sense, ear-sense, etc? They all have specialized sense-organs in the body (the balance organ is right next to the "hairy finger-ring", in the semicircular canals of the labyrinth). The object of the balance-sense is circular motion, just as the object of the ear-sense is sound. Just as destruction of the ear-door creates deafness, destruction of the balance-door creates dizziness, disorientation, etc. Why is hearing a pasada rupa but not balance? Balance isn't any more samutti or pa~n~natti than any of the other senses. They are all rupas at the sense doors, no? Matthew 40720 From: Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 2:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. In a message dated 1/7/2005 7:27:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: An unexperienced experience [I > don't just mean just subliminal, below one's current threshhold of > registering] is a contradiction in terms and non-existent. Hi Howard A couple of weeks ago you were saying that the absolute lack of visual-object was still visual-consciousness if one was attempting to pay attention to Vision. I.E., if I understood you correctly, that a lack of "visual-object was still a visual experience of "no sight" given the mind attempting to access "visual-object." In light of what you've typed above, have you changed your perspective on that? Just curious. TG 40721 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 7:51pm Subject: Re: Apologies Hi James ----------------- J: > The `onus' is on me, huh? Well, that's a rather nasty word ;-). ----------------- Yes, but it was meant in the nicest possible way. :-) ---------------------------- J: > What would you propose I do- go through all 62 views, one-by- one, and show why they aren't Existentialism? ---------------------------- Yes, if that is what it takes. -------------- J: > Why should I do that? All one needs to do is read the Brahmajala Sutta, without reading any commentary, and it will become clear that the Buddha is describing the views of ascetics and Brahmins of his time period. -------------- We have discussed many times whether we should learn the Tipitaka in the way the ancient commentators understood it, or whether we should learn the Tipitaka in the way James (or KenH or anyone else) understands it. We have different opinions on that. ---------------- J: > Here is one source which states the opposite (not that my source or your source really prove anything): "The Brahmajala Sutta is a ''net'' of all possible views / opinions / beliefs / philosophical ideas / speculative thought of His time." --------------- I agree it doesn't prove anything, but I wonder if Krishnamurti necessarily agrees with you. Is he implying that the speculative thought of the Buddha's time was more restricted than the speculative thought of subsequent times? Remember the old adage, 'There is nothing new under the sun.' Kind regards, Ken H 40722 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 7:59pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi Kel, I did not make myself clear: I was not arguing against right intellectual understanding. The point I was trying to make was; the Buddha taught satipatthana and every word of his teaching should be understood in terms of satipatthana. (That is not an original statement: if I remember correctly, it is attributed to K Sujin.) ------------------------ Kel: I agree intellectual understanding is not the way out however it's a necessary stepping stone toward enlightenment. ------------------------ Exactly so, and I didn't mean to disagree. ------------ K: > Buddha expounded on dhamma using concepts and illustrations for people will understand. He just showed how to use the intellect combined with experience to achieve the ultimate goal. If one doesn't understand the underlying concepts then the true wisdom is hopeless. Even paramattha dhammas you mentioned is not free of concepts, it's just a way of describing how the universe work. ----------- Whoa there! Paramattha dhammas are entirely free of concepts. They are definitely not just a way of describing the universe. They exist in their own right regardless of whether we have any concept of their existence - regardless of whether we are Buddhist or non- Buddhist, awake or asleep - or anything! ------------------------ K: > The true paramattha is nibbana since it's out of the whole universe of mind and matter phenonema as we experience it. ------------------------- I don't know what you mean, but I know I don't like it. :-) ----------- K: > The pannati versus paramattha categorization is just for convenience when discussing the philosophy. I have used my book-learning knowledge to guide my practice. Whatever experiences I go through I reconcile with what the teachers and Buddha taught to make sure i haven't strayed from the path. Many times at interviews I've heard other students immersed in flickering lights or visions during their sits. The ten imperfections of wisdom when properly observed without getting attached will pass away. However due to lack of the knowledge about them students chase these experiences fruitlessly. With strong samadhi, experiences of piti and sukha cause people to dwell instead of analyzing them properly. For bhanga, initially it feels like everything is gone and there's nothing left to note. Then after repeated penetration (without just noting nothingness), the mind is able to feel the underlying vibrations which were previously unexperienced so the mind couldn't comprehend at first. I think every practitioner pass through these road-blocks and intellectual knowledge allows one to overcome them easier. ------------ The above may be an accurate description of various insights, I don't know. But I do know that insights occur only to the wise. There is no rite or ritual by means of which insight arises in the unwise. ------------------ K: > Even in patipatti, we use concepts or things in the mundane world to guide us to the truth. ------------------ No, in patipatti there is no concept of the conventional world. There is only direct knowledge of the real, conditioned, world. ----------------------- K: > When you truly see the nature of concepts in terms of three signs that's when you arrive at paramattha. I don't see how Buddha can teach without concepts. ---------------------- This is where I didn't make myself clear: I have no disagreement with this. In fact, I believe in studying the Dhamma as distinct from trying to practise it. True practice occurs when right understanding arises. And that is due entirely to conditions, not to any ideas that illusory beings (you and me) might have. ---------- <. . .> K: > not offended but confused as to what point I'm missing. ------- As I was saying, every word of the Buddha's teaching is to be understood in terms of satipatthana. In satipatthana, there is no concept of a being who is practising, there are only namas and rupas. However, as worldlings, we naturally desire to become wise and wonderful beings, and so we naturally misunderstand the Dhamma. Most of us, at some time or another, are attracted to various meditation techniques whereby we, supposedly, experience what the ariyans experience. But those techniques are not mentioned in the Dhamma. The Dhamma simply teaches us to know the presently arisen reality regardless of whether it is wonderful or deplorable or just plain ordinary. Ken H 40723 From: Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 8:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Howard: "an experience is a dhamma" Hi Howard, Okay, I think I've got what you're saying. An experience is any dhamma that either accompanies consciousness or is the object of consciousness, as a cetasika or rupa for example. Presumably cetasikas could be either object or accompanier but rupa, concept, or nibbana would be only object. Or is there no difference between object and accompanier insofar as they are experiences except that cetasika and concept have a reference point while rupa doesn't? If that is it, the only thing left to hash out is the relationship between experience, as you call it, and consciousness. I believe you said this is not a subject/object relationship. You called consciousness presence and the relationship nondual. If they are not two then they are the same and presence is just a quality of the phenomenon. Is this what you have in mind? Larry 40724 From: connieparker Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 9:25pm Subject: patience, courage and good cheer Thank you to all the Pilgrims for the great discussions. There is a lot of encouragement there. Here are some, all out of order, that caught my attention: *** To say it is difficult is praising the wisdom of the Buddha. Who can know all about the teachings? Buddha himself said "Who knows all of what I have said?" It helps to know how limited our own level is. Even a sotapanna still needs to hear more. There's always potential for sati to arise because there are always realities. But it is impossible for it to arise without there being intellectual understanding. One will not go wrong because one knows the details; it makes for firmness about the right path. Just to be sankhara khandha for awareness, no expectation. Little by little. How many times a day? We don't mind, otherwise lobha is there again. Just begin again. As we know the way, we'll reach that point. Development of a certain amount of panna is still asaya. *** On that last one, we usually talk about anusayas/defiled latent tendencies and how they are dormant in each citta, even the kusala ones, so we don't know what we're capable of and can't really say "well, I'd never...", but it's the same with the good accumulations/asaya... who knows when or what will condition just a little more sati, just a little more understanding, just a little more... and I think the kusala must be stronger than the akusala in the long run. And maybe the most encouraging of all: "Well, there hasn't been cuti yet!" peace, connie 40725 From: Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 4:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing Hi, Matthew - In a message dated 1/7/05 10:39:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, bupleurum@y... writes: > Nina wrote: > > > >I do not think this is the case. The infinitely tiny rupa > >earsense is located somewhere in the body, and this is described > >here. > > > > An "infinitely tiny" thing somewhere in the body "shaped like a > finger-ring and fringed by tender, tawny hairs"? Hmm. Sounds like a > > pretty darn good description of the cochlea of the inner ear. There > is indeed a very tiny (though not "infinitely" tiny) area lined with > so-called "hair cells" which are sensory cells topped with hair-like > structures called stereocilia. When sound vibrates the hair cells > they send nerve impulses to the brain, which are perceived as a sound > of whatever pitch the hair cell is associated with. > > (Sorry Howard, I'm definitely indulging in physics here -- but it is > quite remarkable that Buddhaghosa described this so accurately!) > --------------------------------------- Howard: Matthew, it doesn't bother me at all that you raise this. You are making exactly my point, that Buddhagosa is mixing conventional objects, samutti dhamma, with paramattha dhammas. I certainly do not deny that the cochlea is a conventional reality. Abhidhamma, however, considers eye/eyesense to be a rupa, a paramattha dhamma. But a paramattha dhamma doesn't have parts like hairs!! ---------------------------------------------- > > While we're hanging out inside the ear, one thing has always puzzled > me... > > When describing the pasada rupas, why doesn't the abhidhamma include > the sense of balance? Is balance-sense not a rupa, just like eye- > sense, ear-sense, etc? They all have specialized sense-organs in the > body (the balance organ is right next to the "hairy finger-ring", in > the semicircular canals of the labyrinth). The object of the > balance-sense is circular motion, just as the object of the ear-sense > is sound. Just as destruction of the ear-door creates deafness, > destruction of the balance-door creates dizziness, disorientation, > etc. > > Why is hearing a pasada rupa but not balance? Balance isn't any more > samutti or pa~n~natti than any of the other senses. They are all > rupas at the sense doors, no? > > Matthew > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40726 From: Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Hi, TG - In a message dated 1/7/05 10:42:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hi Howard > > A couple of weeks ago you were saying that the absolute lack of > visual-object > was still visual-consciousness if one was attempting to pay attention to > Vision. I.E., if I understood you correctly, that a lack of "visual-object > was > still a visual experience of "no sight" given the mind attempting to access > "visual-object." > > In light of what you've typed above, have you changed your perspective on > that? Just curious. > > TG > ====================== No, no change. As best I can tell, what I'm speaking of here, and what I spoke of before are apples & oranges. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40727 From: Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 5:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/7/05 11:27:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Howard: "an experience is a dhamma" > > Hi Howard, > > Okay, I think I've got what you're saying. An experience is any dhamma > that either accompanies consciousness or is the object of consciousness, > as a cetasika or rupa for example. > -------------------------------- Howard: Yes. ------------------------------- Presumably cetasikas could be either> > object or accompanier but rupa, concept, or nibbana would be only > object. > ------------------------------ Howard: Well, cetasikas *as such* are accompaniers. As objects, I wouldn't call them cetasikas. (Here I'm just talking about how we refer to them.) ------------------------------ Or is there no difference between object and accompanier insofar > > as they are experiences except that cetasika and concept have a > reference point while rupa doesn't? ------------------------------ Howard: No, I think there is a difference between being present as an object and as a concomitant. -------------------------------- > > If that is it, the only thing left to hash out is the relationship > between experience, as you call it, and consciousness. I believe you > said this is not a subject/object relationship. You called consciousness > presence and the relationship nondual. If they are not two then they are > the same and presence is just a quality of the phenomenon. Is this what you > have in mind? > --------------------------------------- Howard: Nonduality does not mean identity. Nondualism isn't monism. The relationship of nonduality is the relationship of mutual dependence and insep arability, but it does not imply indistinguishability. Again, it is like inside and outside surfaces of a box. They are inseparable, but yet distinguishable and not one. I would agree that the presence of something is much *like* a property of it. Not quite, but very similar. And yes, it is not a subject/object relationship. A knowing subject is, in fact, a "self". There is no such thing. When I had that brief no-self experience I have described, there was no subject. And with that being so, nothing experienced had the flavor of "object", because there was no subject opposing it. -------------------------------------- > > > > Larry > > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40728 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 10:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: You are > making exactly my point, that Buddhagosa is mixing conventional objects, samutti > dhamma, with paramattha dhammas. I certainly do not deny that the cochlea is a > conventional reality. Abhidhamma, however, considers eye/eyesense to be a > rupa, a paramattha dhamma. But a paramattha dhamma doesn't have parts like hairs!! > ---------------------------------------------- > Dear Howard and Sarah, The Dhamma is often taught using pannatti and paramattha dhamma in the same sentence. Take the the expression "woman's voice". The sound is real, but the woman is not real. I don't know how much you have studied the section on the sense bases in the Visuddhimagga but Buddhaghosa in no way was confused about what was paramattha and what was not. In the case of sotapasada he says that it FOUND in the place that is shaped like a finger-stall. However, he is clear that the actual rupa that is the pasada is incredibly sublime. It might even be so refined as to be unmeasuarable by scientific instruments. This applies also to the other sense organs (pasada rupa). The Atthasalini remarks that the very purpose of using the term pasada is to dismiss the popular misconception of what we think an eye or an ear is. (see karunadasa p45). Sarah, I just saw a post where you said that there was no location for cittas of hearing, seeing etc. This is not so: they arise at the eyebase or earbase etc. Robertk 40729 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 10:56pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Ken, K: > Buddha expounded on dhamma using concepts and illustrations for > people will understand. He just showed how to use the intellect > combined with experience to achieve the ultimate goal. If one > doesn't understand the underlying concepts then the true wisdom is > hopeless. Even paramattha dhammas you mentioned is not free of > concepts, it's just a way of describing how the universe work. > ----------- > > Ken: Whoa there! Paramattha dhammas are entirely free of concepts. They > are definitely not just a way of describing the universe. They exist > in their own right regardless of whether we have any concept of > their existence - regardless of whether we are Buddhist or non- > Buddhist, awake or asleep - or anything! > ------------------------ Kel: Buddha always described things from moralistic point of view. Who's to say scientific point of view of matter isn't describing the same reality? Bottom line is the body is made out of smaller particles, whatever they maybe called or separated into. Quantum theory is confirming what Buddha described 2.5k years ago, just not using the same elements. There's no permanent core and it's useless to be attached to it. If you get that basic principle then the categorization or names shouldn't matter. Now the question is can you apply this basic knowledge of anatta in your bodily, verbal and mental actions. If you truly believe this, why can't you do it? To become an ariya, you have to live like one. Does your mind have enough strength to not stray and not commit unwholesome actions even in thoughts? > K: > The true paramattha is nibbana since it's out of the whole > universe of mind and matter phenonema as we experience it. > ------------------------- > Ken: I don't know what you mean, but I know I don't like it. :-) Kel: As long as we're still in the mundane universe it's still not the truth. Only Nibbana is the truth, the goal. The whole field of mind-matter is going through arising and passing away and not free of concept. Nibbana cannot be described fully with any concept we know because it is free of concept and process of becoming. > Ken: The above may be an accurate description of various insights, > don't know. But I do know that insights occur only to the wise. > There is no rite or ritual by means of which insight arises in the > unwise. Kel: Who mentioned rites or rituals? During deep meditation sessions we experience and see glimpses of the insights. After repeatedly experiencing them, they become mature and steady insights worthy of being called vipassana-nanas. > ------------------ > K: > Even in patipatti, we use concepts or things in the mundane > world to guide us to the truth. > ------------------ > > Ken: No, in patipatti there is no concept of the conventional world. > There is only direct knowledge of the real, conditioned, world. > > ----------------------- Kel: Patipatti just means way/practice. Now when someone becomes a sotapanna, they can enjoy the fruit/phala whenever they want. There's really two modes for them when they enter meditation. When they want to obtain higher stages, they will again have to sharpen their minds and dig further to find the defilements still latent in the mind. Or they merely relive the successive nana's (loki) and enter phala(lokuttara) for some time. A sotapanna householder is not meditating deeply 24/7 when they go about their daily routine. They live normally, just will no longer commit actions caused by the removed defilements. They'll still commit unwholesome actions due to the remaining defilements. So even when an ariya is applying the way of living properly, patipatti, they do not have a constant "direct knowledge of the real, conditioned, world". > Most of us, at some time or another, are attracted to various > meditation techniques whereby we, supposedly, experience what the > ariyans experience. But those techniques are not mentioned in the > Dhamma. Kel: There's nothing wrong with practicing a particular technique. They're once again vehicle one rides to get to the goal. As long as one doesn't form an attachment to a particular technique and start believing it is the only way. If it's a proper technique within the confines of satipatthana, and one is practioning properly why wouldn't we experience the nana's? Meditation is an exercise of the mind and depending on the stage of the person, different methods should be used. > The Dhamma simply teaches us to know the presently arisen reality > regardless of whether it is wonderful or deplorable or just plain > ordinary. Kel: That's the goal, but blindly trying to get there isn't going to work. We clear our minds by practicing sila. We sharpen our minds by practicing samadi. Only then when you practice insight, you might actually be aware of the reality that has arisen. If your sati/samadhi is not strong, even if you have equanimity, it'll still be observing at superficial levels because your mind is still obstructed by moha. - kel 40730 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 11:05pm Subject: Re: What the mind does --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > For bhanga, initially it feels like > everything is gone and there's nothing left to note. Then after > repeated penetration (without just noting nothingness), the mind is > able to feel the underlying vibrations which were previously > unexperienced so the mind couldn't comprehend at first. ============== Dear Kelvin, Do you have a reference for this statement. RobertK 40731 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 11:20pm Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi Robert, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" > wrote: > > > > For bhanga, initially it feels like > > everything is gone and there's nothing left to note. Then after > > repeated penetration (without just noting nothingness), the mind > is > > able to feel the underlying vibrations which were previously > > unexperienced so the mind couldn't comprehend at first. > ============== > Dear Kelvin, > Do you have a reference for this statement. > RobertK I'm afraid no handy online literature reference. It was from my own experience and what my meditation teachers have told me. I read/heard lectures about checking for subtlest phenomena by Burmese monks. It is mentioned in connection with Passaddhi by SN Goenka in his Satipatthana course in English too. Other than that I can't furnish anything at the moment, sorry. I was just trying to make a point without instructions, I would've been lost as to how to handle that experience. - Kel 40732 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 0:21am Subject: Re: jhanas Hi Dave, > someone could offer me some of their personal experience or some > scriptural reference. The traditional Theravadin stance on the I certainly can't give scriptural references as I'm sure other people in DSG can. Hopefully someone will furnish them for you. However, I can offer some personal views and what I was taught. > jhanas is that absorption cannot be used for insight practice due > to the mind's being too still to glean any insight. It is believed > phala cannot be realized with jhana. Common way to develop the mundane jhanas is of course samatha or concentration meditation. The goal is to pick a subject and train the mind on it without interruption. Once it's so trained to perceive the subject as a counterpart sign, it'll appear as permanent. Then one practice to be able to advert the mind to this sign whenever and however long one wants. Absorption is when one gets really good and can stay solely on this sign for a long time. Even five minutes would be consider a long time in terms of how many citta moments that entails. Anyway hopefully you can see it is not a suitable object for insight meditation because it is culivated and appears to be permanent. So after one comes out of absorption, instead of the sign, one can use the sharp mind resulting from jhana to train it back on the mind itself for investigation. There it transition to vipassana and wisdom for enlightenment can arise leading to phala. If someone stays with the signs and jhana without doing vipassana then phala cannot be realized. Buddha says the 4th jhana produced mind is the best mind to meditate with since it's so pure and equanimous. So if one does transition like they're suppose to then the fruit of jhana practice is phala. > the result of the mundane jhanas is rebirth in a desire realm,fine > material realm, etc and that the fruit of jhana practice is not > nirvana. So if one merely achieves rupa-jhanas, then they will be reborn into corresponding rupa-brahmic planes. If they achieve arupa- jhanas then they'll be reborn in arupa-brahmic planes. If they also achieve enlightenments then they'll be born into appripriate planes. Of course for arahants there's no rebirth, achieve nibbana/nirvana. So really both positions are true. With just mundane jhanas, you can't achieve enlightenment but they create the best mind (focused and equanimous) to use in achieving enlightenment. Some call sannavedayitanirodha the 9th jhana or supramundane jhana. This is in addition to the 4 paths and 4 fruits (phala) of enlightenment. The 9th jhana can be reached by anagamis and arahants who are also trained in the 8 jhanas. During Buddha's time, other teachers also taught and achieved the 8 jhanas. So it's just a differentiation that had to be made to show that merely achieving the 8 jhanas is not the way out of samsara. You need to take the extra step of vipassana and achieve sannavedayitanirodha for total cessation that one can enter absorption, just like mundane jhanas. The big difference is the mind and mind-caused matter complete stops in sannavedayitanirodha. It is as close as you can get to experiencing the total experience of Nibbana while still alive. A further reference: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/jhanas/jhanas06.htm - kel 40733 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 1:23am Subject: Re: Apologies Friend Ken H., Ken: Yes, but it was meant in the nicest possible way. :-) James: That's good to hear. ;-) Ken: Yes, if that is what it takes. James: Well, you can forget it! ;-) You see, the `onus' is not really on me; it is on those who state that the Brahmajala Sutta is universal. Personally, I don't see anything in the sutta itself which states that the Buddha was being universal; and no one has been able to quote where the Buddha states that specifically. Therefore, the `onus' (burden of proof) is on you Ken H., not me. You could just do what Howard did: quote the wrong view which you believe is Existentialism. (BTW, I granted the argument concerning Objectivism to Howard because I respect his opinion, but I am not entirely convinced that the `heart' of Objectivist thought is a materialistic, atta-view…that could only be a side issue, a false view that arises from the main false view: that all of reality can be known through rational/logical thought.) Ken: We have discussed many times whether we should learn the Tipitaka in the way the ancient commentators understood it, or whether we should learn the Tipitaka in the way James (or KenH or anyone else) understands it. We have different opinions on that. James: Well, the Buddha already answered that before he died and told his sangha to `be a light unto themselves'. Anyway, I don't reject all of the commentaries, only some of them. I simply advocate that people learn to think for themselves (and develop intuition through meditation) and then they will know which commentaries to trust and which ones they should disregard. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would blindly accept all of the commentaries, especially since their sources are unknown. Ken: I agree it doesn't prove anything, but I wonder if Krishnamurti necessarily agrees with you. Is he implying that the speculative thought of the Buddha's time was more restricted than the speculative thought of subsequent times? James: I don't think he is implying that. If you think he is, then explain why you think so. But really, I would rather just focus on the sutta rather than argue secondary sources. Ken: Remember the old adage, 'There is nothing new under the sun.' James: Did the Buddha teach that? ;-)) Metta, James 40734 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 1:26am Subject: Re: Apologies Friend Kelvin, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi James, > > I know you like to rely on Buddha's original words for the most > part. However, may I suggest reading this exposition on right view: > http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL03.html Thank you for this post but I don't understand how it relates specifically to this thread. Could you please explain in your own words so that I may better understand? Metta, James 40735 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 2:23am Subject: Re: Apologies James, > > I know you like to rely on Buddha's original words for the most > > part. However, may I suggest reading this exposition on right > view: > > http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/MANUAL03.html > > Thank you for this post but I don't understand how it relates > specifically to this thread. Could you please explain in your own > words so that I may better understand? Kel: If I read your arguments correctly then you're saying sutta specifically mentioned the ascetics and Brahmins and their views. And you're saying that basically means it only apply to ascetics and Brahmins who exist at Buddha's time and their wrong views right? I thought the work of Ledi Sayadaw offered a broader definition of the words you translated as Ascetics and Brahmins. ascestic = "samana" (one endeavouring to extinguish the passions) brahmin = "brahmana" (a person leading a pure, stainless and ascetic life) Those definitions seem to suggest people who are trying to find the way out of samsara outside of just Buddha's time period. So for anyone striving to find the truth, the wrong views enumerated are all the possible mistakes they can make due to their improper or partial understanding of the truth. I myself was taught there are 62 wrong views and always figured it didn't matter what they are as long as I under the right view. - kel 40736 From: Egbert Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 2:35am Subject: Re: Concepts and Questions Hi TG, This is the bit where I circambulate according to the custom of the day (circambulation du jour). My reply is below :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > In a message dated 1/7/2005 1:57:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, > hhofman@t... writes: > Yes, the Tipitaka is entirely conceptual. I would never confuse it > with Dhamma, though. > > Unless I'm very much mistaken, you are putting forward that reading > the conceptual Tipitaka is or can be a factor that produces > enlightenment. > > Mmmmmmmmmm, I'll have all day to ruminate about :-) > > Catch U later > > > Herman > > Hi Herman > > Not only am I putting this idea forward, the Buddha does. Of course, I've ripped off most of "my" ideas from him. ;-) And as you can see...the Buddha > does call the teachings "Dhamma." === The teachings of the Buddha are oral in nature. That is Dhamma. It is a quantum leap to suggest that the Buddha refers at any time to the Tipitaka, which is a written tradition initiated upto hundreds of years after his own death. === > > “…when he gives ear (listens), he hears the Dhamma; having heard the Dhamma, === Exactly !!!!!!!!! (note the emphasis :-) He gives ear, listens, hears. That hasn't happened for about 2000 years. There is a world-wide difference between reading and hearing. A new-born does not need to be taught how to hear. Hearing is the primary vehicle of learning. Hearing is the sense by which a person is susceptible to another. A new-born does need to be taught how to read, by which I mean that symbolic representation to the nth degree in not innate. The necessity to learn to read has nothing to do with liberation, only with survival in a society that demands alienation from reality. It takes years and years of training to learn to read, to rewire the mind so that when it looks at black and white dots it sees meaning (where there isn't any, wasn't any, and never will be any). (Just imagine if those self-same years were spent developing purity of mind and view) I put forward that the mind that has become literate is so far removed from reality, so embedded in conceptuality, that enlightennment is out of the question. (The NSPW* index since a few years after the Buddha's paranibbana bears that out) *NSPW - new sotapannas per week). The notion that intellectual understanding is a pre-cursor to anything leading to extinction through lack of clinging will be the macabre joke of the next few millenia. Intellectual understanding *IS* clinging. Intellectual understanding *IS* the split mind confirming itself. Sending little Johnny to primary school, high school and then university to learn to regurgitate whichever Abhidhamma has ascendancy will ensure he won't ever get close to seeing clearly again, which he did fairly well when he was born. My three cents only, of course. Kind Regards Herman > he memorizes it and examines the meaning of the teachings he has memorized; > when he has examined their meaning, he gains a reflective acceptance of those > teachings; when he has gained a reflective acceptance of those teachings, zeal > springs up; when zeal springs up, he applies his will; having applied his > will, he scrutinizes; having scrutinized, he strives; resolutely striving, he > realizes with the body the ultimate truth and sees it by penetrating it with > wisdom.â€? In this way, Bharadvaja, there is the discovery of the truth; in this way > one discovers the truth; in this way we describe the discovery of the truth. > But as yet there is no final arrival at truth.â€? … “The final arrival of > truth Bharadvaja, lies in the repetition, development, and cultivation of those > same things.â€? > (The Buddha . . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 782, With > Canki, Canki Sutta, #95) > > TG > > 40737 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 4:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: 'Absolute' (was, False Identification of Paramattha Dhammas and Realities) Hi, Herman Thanks for your detailed comments. Some more thoughts of my own follow. Egbert wrote: >... My point was simply that comparisons are a relation that are based >on at least three components, and that the relation cannot be >deduced from any one or even two of the components on their own. > In the context in which this question arose (i.e., conditions as being the relations between dhammas) I would not consider a comparison to be relation. Comparisons are made in relation to a chosen yardstick, and are clearly purely mind-constructed. However, we are perhaps getting away from the main point here, which is that (a) presently arisen dhammas have characteristics that are knowable to (i.e., directly experiencable by) panna, and (b) the conditioning factors in relation to a presently arisen dhamma are similarly knowable to panna. >The division of dhammas into classes is certainly possible. The >number of classes into which dhammas can be divided is limited only >by imagination. This classification is not an experiential process, >it is very much an after-the-fact, thinking only, artifice. > > I think you are saying here that any 'practice' that involves classifying dhammas as they arise cannot be direct knowledge and can only be after-the-fact thinking. I agree with that, and would include, as well as 'classifying' dhammas, any practice that involves observing, identifying or knowing dhammas (as a deliberate thing-to-do). Furthermore, not only would it be after-the-fact thinking, it would also not be any form of kusala mentioned in the texts. I believe any such 'practice' would only reinforce the idea of a self who is able to control things (by having kusala by wilful application). The purpose of classifying of dhammas, which of course occurs extensively in the suttas, is surely to assist the arising of understanding of dhammas for those of us whose understanding is weak. But the aim remains the understanding of dhammas, not the accumulation of knowledge of classifications. >When attributing membership of dhammas to certain classes I do not >think it is possible to avoid the same difficulties as one >encounters when attempting to pigeonhole the Tathagata. > >Is it the same Tathagata that wakes in the morning as the one who >went to sleep the night before? Is it the same dhamma now as a >previous occasion? > >The whole point about avoiding such classifications is the wrong >views that lurk on all sides. > > If you are talking about a 'practice' of classifying dhammas as they arise, then I agree. On the other hand, I would see a knowledge of the various classifications given by the Buddha, properly understood, as being a necessary part of the learning process. >"A=A" does not apply in Buddhism. Given the three characteristics, >perhaps at best (but still doubtful) we can say "A was". > >I agree with you that experience is absolute, but precisely because >of that, a classification system is a complete denial of that >absoluteness. I see no neccesity in classifying, but certainly a >need to see that classification is happening. > Again, 'classifying' presently arising dhammas would not be any part of the development of insight. The classifying has been done by the Buddha, to give us a better chance of understanding. >H> As Howard and I discussed before (not implying that Howard agrees >with me BTW :-)) the experience is the knowing. It is an absolute >event. Nothing else happens. Any knowing after that is a selective >apprehension of a selected past. It is story-telling. > >I do not agree that what is later called eg sound has a >characteristic of belonging to any classification or group. >Classification is completely arbitrary. The "classes" have no >existence. Just like the khandas, they are just explanatory devices. > > Agreed. The dhamma that is sound can be classified (i.e., is in fact classified in the texts) in a number of different ways -- for example as a khandha, an ayatana, an element. But it is just that dhamma, having a particular characteristic that only sound has (and having also the 3 characteristics that it shares with all other conditioned dhammas). I have snipped your quote from Nyanatiloka because I do not find it controversal. I have also snipped your comments about the development of the path and will respond on that part separately, as this post is already lomg enough ;-)). Jon 40738 From: jwromeijn Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 4:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Dear Nina and Herman (and all) Herman, I think your words are as gently as mine, and more written in a quit way. You said: "Of course, in Buddhism, the aim is not to have a better model of reality, although you could be forgiven for thinking that at times. Everybody has a model of reality, and most confuse between reality and their model. Model making is certainly a possibility, but definitely not a necessity." I agree with this, but don't forget the theme of this thread is: 'Doubt and Confidence', the danger is in being busy with the model to forget ones reality. Nina, you have (of course) not totally convinced me but I understand your way of reasoning a bit better. J >> because the concepts 'good' and 'evil' don't attract me (now). N: >Could it be the words good and evil? The Buddha taught about > kusala and akusala and how to eradicate akusala, how to > cultivate kusala, all good qualities. Joop: it's not the words, language is just conceptual reality (also Pali is), I'm not sure at a ontological-psychological level if the dimension good-evil really exists or only is a human cultural invention. I must experience myself if for me the dimension kusala - akusala exists, in daily life or in meditation. I know being revengeful to somebody doesn't really help me, but why should I abstract this insight and call 'revengeful' kusala and 'starting again with somebody' akusala ? Making it abstract is making a system. N: >the number 17 makes sense when we consider one rupa as object experienced by a whole series of cittas. Joop: it's funny, that we discuss with different styles. My question is not if the number 17 makes sense but if this as a empirical fact brought number is correct or just a metaphorical way of saying. Now I understand of you that's only a metaphore, meaning: a rupa is experienced by a human being longer than a citta. And about 'making sense': not everythings makes sense, a tsunami doesn't make sense: making sense is not an argument. Nina: Study of nama and rupa, of cittas arising in processes, basic principles of Abhidhamma can help us with the development of insight. Joop: Yes, that's right, that's important; but not only cittas arsing, also rupas arsing, citta is to me not more important than rupa. And: not always more than studying 'basic principles' are wholesome: 1. Buddhism (or whatever label of it was used) was a living, a dynamical, spiritual movement 2. I can imagine monks hundreds of years ago were so glad to discover the high level of truth of it, that when they at the same moment discovered that the essence of this disappeared as sand between their fingers when contemplating it, that they made a system of it, in which nothing was forgotten. That they even added aspects to it were the Buddha didn't talk about. 3. But the tragedy is that as a result of making it perfect, in this way "life", the core, got out buddhism as a spiritual path by 'translating' the narrative style of the sutta's by a abstract style of abhidhamma. 4. So it's not talking about details I don't comprehend, that irritates me; it's the scholasticism itself. I will not say that scholasticism dies living spirituality in general but it does with me. 5. So in this way I state: studying Abhidhamma can be dangerous. With metta Joop 40740 From: Date: Fri Jan 7, 2005 11:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/8/05 1:39:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard and Sarah, > The Dhamma is often taught using pannatti and paramattha dhamma in > the same sentence. > Take the the expression "woman's voice". The sound is real, but the > woman is not real. > > I don't know how much you have studied the section on the sense > bases in the Visuddhimagga but Buddhaghosa in no way was confused > about what was paramattha and what was not. > In the case of sotapasada he says that it FOUND in the place that is > shaped like a finger-stall. ======================== I get your point, Robert, and it is a good one. And I can see that a sense of a physical location for hearing does at least suggest a rupa that is physical base. In fact a physical location with which is associated a function that is, in its objective aspect, physical might well, itself, constitute a sort of rupa. I will hold this matter in abeyance, but your comments have moved me closer to a position of acceptance. [You see, what I always look for with regard to the alleged reality of something, is that it be possible to be experienced. Your emphasizing of *location* is useful to me in that regard.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40741 From: Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies Hi, James - In a message dated 1/8/05 4:24:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > (BTW, I granted the argument concerning > Objectivism to Howard because I respect his opinion, but I am not > entirely convinced that the `heart' of Objectivist thought is a > materialistic, atta-view…that could only be a side issue, a false > view that arises from the main false view: that all of reality can > be known through rational/logical thought.) > ========================== The emphasis on an objective physical reality, an entirely materialist "world", with annihilation at death, and *most of all* the emphasis on "I", "me", "mine", and "self" are central to objectivism. (BTW, one of her non-fiction works is entitled "The Virtue of Selfishness"! ;-) Note: To be fair, by "selfishness" she means egoism and self-interest, but not an attitude that consider violations of others' rights to be proper. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40742 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 5:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: Dear Htoo and Tep, could we not say that it has to do with accumulations? Not the latent tendencies, but besides latent tendencies which are seven, there are manyother qualities accumulated. Citta and cetasikas motivate the arahat to speak fast, or to use a coarse word. Nina. op 07-01-2005 18:50 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > Tep: How then should vasana be classified, according to the Abhidhamma > >> point of view? What kind of ultimate reality is it? > > > Htoo: It would fall under pannatti I think. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, What Tep asked is a difficult question. I just tried to reply simply. When I look into it again what I believe is like the followings. An arahat speaks fast. Another arahat speaks slowly. Both behave the same as before they attained arahatta magga nana. Slow or fast is what we are thinking. In arising and passing away of dhamma such as 'vaci-vinatti', cittas, cetasikas are now all pure in arahats. But that fastness-slowness cannot be found. That is why I put it under panatti. Any thoughts or comments on this Nina, Tep and anyone. With respect, Htoo Naing 40743 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 5:56am Subject: What is mental development (was, 'Absolute' etc) Hi again, Herman Egbert wrote: >H> I tend to think of mental development as a natural deconstructive >process. Rather than building at a superstructure of layer upon >layer of non-existent classifications, I see value in >becoming aware of how even what seems to be bare awareness is also >formed of mistaking non-existent classifications for something that >actually happened. > > I get the impression you find it easier to talk about what mental development isn't than to say what it is ;-)). The description you offer here is 'a natural deconstructive process', but that could cover a multitude of things. To my way of thinking, the path must be something that is (potentially) capable of development at the present moment, as one is reading a message or composing a reply. You mention 'bare awareness'. No doubt there is a lot of mistaking after-the-fact thinking for bare awareness; but what in fact is the awareness or mindfulness about which the Buddha spoke? >I think what the Buddha taught Bahiya does not need to be improved >upon. > >'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be >merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; >in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you >should train yourself, Bahiya. > >"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the >cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not >be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, >you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' >then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the >two. Just this is the end of suffering." > >Now through this brief Dhamma teaching of the Lord the mind of >Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was immediately freed from the taints >without grasping. ' > > Well I of course have no disagreement with the sentiment that what the Buddha taught cannot be improved upon. But as usual there's room for interpretation if one takes the words of the sutta in isolation. So how do you see the teaching to Bahiya as applying to the present moment? On my reading, it has to do with dhammas and their characteristics. Jon 40744 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 6:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 1/7/05 9:12:17 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > > In you reply now you focus on 'The Buddha instruction to > Culapanthaka' the whole of which is pannatti. Yes it is pannatti. But > what I reply was Culapanthaka was not taught any conceptual dhamma > for his attainment. > > I hope this is clear to you, Howard. > ======================== I agree that the Buddha did not try to teach Buddhist concepts to him. He was too "slow" for that. The Buddha may even not have used any words with him. What he may well have done was merely show him the taking of a rag in the Buddha's hand, the rubbing of the rag with thumb and a finger or two, and then with gestures, indicate that Culapanthaka should take the rag and do the same with it. All that (possibly) wordless instruction involved a host of concepts. That is my point and TG's as well, I believe. We are immersed in concept, and the raison d'etre of concept is communication. It is indispensable for learning the Dhamma, not only in theory but in practice as well. With metta, Howard ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Howard ( and TG ), Here I do not think idea, concepts, pannatti are equivalent. That is why you both are arguing on the matter. The concept, the idea may well be part of pannindriya cetasika while there is no pannatti as reality. Pannatti does not include in ayatana dhamma. The problem here is using of translated English words which are actually not equivalent. The Buddha instructed Culapanthaka. There did have background idea. The reason why He gave that rag or cloth to rub was that once in a life Culapanthaka-to-be was a farmer ploughing in a peddy field and when he wiped out his sweat his cloth went dirty and he was shocked. This is a part of anicca sanna. The Buddha has Aasaanusaya nana and He knew that Culapanthaka would benefit from such instruction. This is background idea. That idea resided in nana or pannindriya cetasika loaded cittas. So I believe that concept, idea, conceptualization are not completely the same as pannatti dhamma. I do hope you both now have a clear mind on the matter. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40745 From: Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 1:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Htoo - In a message dated 1/8/05 9:04:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > So I believe that concept, idea, conceptualization are not completely > the same as pannatti dhamma. > > I do hope you both now have a clear mind on the matter. > ==================== I think that the distinguishing you are taking about here may well be important, but it is not clear to me exactly what you mean. I would like to hear more. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40746 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 6:17am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Dear TG (and Howard) I try to reply your message. But I already responded to Howard reagarding concept matter. Please see below for discussion. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: In a message dated 1/7/2005 6:14:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: >Htoo: > Dear TG and Howard, > I have replied to Howard and please see the details of reply there in that post. > I did catch the point. But the original point was another. > With Metta, > Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TG wrote: Hi Htoo Naing The original point was the same. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not think the same. The original one is attainment without being taught the concepts to attain arahatta magga nana. The Buddha instruction was just a simple one and not teaching on concept. That is why I said Culapanthaka attained arahatta magga nana without pannatti. But what Howard said was 'The Buddha words to Culapanthaka of 'Rajo haranam rajo haranam' which is pannatti. So I do not believe the points are not the same. But I grasp what you both are trying to argue on pannatti. If pannatti dhamma is well understood that matter may not arise. The problem is use=age of inaccurate English words which are serving as translated words. Concept that Howard said is not simple pannatti. Concepts and idea may well be part of pannindriya cetasikas loaded cittas. But pannatti never exist as ultimate realities. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TG wrote: The point being that concepts are stepping stones to understanding higher knowledge's. And how can you "step on a stone" that doesn't exist? How can it have any efficacy if it doesn't exist? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Been explained. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TG wrote: I believe Howard has successfully shown that even in the most extreme case, a case that certainly doesn't apply to anyone in this group, concepts still played a roll. The incredible roll they play with folks actively studying Sutta, Abhidhamma, and related commentaries and subjects; and discussing those ideas with others in a group like this ... is virtually incalculable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What we are studying now are accumulating. What we have acquired are not pannatti. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- TG wrote: There are some who have an idea that -- 'concepts don't play any roll in my practice.' Now someone may get to that point, but it still has a foundation partially built on concepts. I wanted to see if others might show me wrong, but haven't been shown yet. Nor has anyone answered how nonexistent concepts can have the power to affect states. For myself, I don't think discerning "realities" in the sense of -- 'what's more real than something else' is the theme of the Buddha's teaching. I don't think he cares if you think concepts are the most real or unreal things in the world. I think he wants you to break attachments that lead to suffering. Hey...if rubbing a cloth will do the job, that's fine with him! TG ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I hope now you both now have a clear view. With Metta, Htoo Naing 40747 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 6:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: Concepts and Questions Dear Howard (and TG and All) Dhamma is wide, deep, large and endless. What we are discussing here on the list are just very small portion of what The Buddha taught, which again He mentioned that it was just like a handful of leaves in his hand showing to bhikkhus while The Dhamma is more than leaves in the whole forest. As you requested, I think discussion on dhamma should continue here. You started that concept etc and I replied that there are cases that attainment without pannatti can happen. What The Buddha said through out His living life were just pannatti. They were sadda-pannatti. But these sadda-pannatti bear attha- pannatti. But when all pannatti are eaxmined there is nothing in it as ultimate realities. Pannatti are not citta. They are not cetasika. They are not rupa. They are not nibbana. So pannatti are not ultimate realities. Someone argue that 'The Buddha did not say pannatti does not exist'. Pannatti are naming. Defining. Here naming is pannatti. But defining has a mixture of pannatti and some idea that there have to be idea as background for definition. When things are defined, pannatti have to be used. Examples are Citta is nature that know the object of its attention. 1.'citta' the word is pannatti. 2. 'nature' the word is pannatti. 3.'the object' here the words are pannatti. 4. 'know' is pannatti which carries idea 5. 'attention' is pannatti but carries idea indicating characterisitics While the whole sentence is pannatti, the whole bear the idea indicating what citta means. But in reality citta is citta and even when it is not explained it exists when it arises and it is an ultimate reality. Here we are defining on 'citta'. There are words like 'know' 'attention'. These are characterisation. These are idea. But they are part of understanding and they are just part of pannidriya cetasikas loaded cittas especially when in nana sampayutta javana cittas in mano-dvara vithi vara. Not all Pali words fit with a single English word for each. Example Citta = consciousness ; this may be wrong Rupa = material ; this may be wrong With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: Hi, Htoo - > > In a message dated 1/8/05 9:04:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, > htootintnaing@y... writes: > > > So I believe that concept, idea, conceptualization are not completely > > the same as pannatti dhamma. > > > > I do hope you both now have a clear mind on the matter. > > > ==================== > I think that the distinguishing you are taking about here may well be > important, but it is not clear to me exactly what you mean. I would like to > hear more. > > With metta, > Howard > 40748 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 7:20am Subject: Re: Concepts and Questions Hi, Htoo, Egbert, TGrand, and Howard - I have read the ongoing dialogue on 'concept' and 'Dhamma learning' with great interest, and would like to discuss about the relevant point you all have made as follows: TGrand in #40618: "Although it is possible to learn how to ride a bike without training wheels, I don't think it is possible to learn Dhamma without concepts". Howard in message #40695: "We are immersed in concept, and the raison d'etre of concept is communication. It is indispensable for learning the Dhamma, not only in theory but in practice as well." Egbert in #40612 and # 40630: "I believe the unenlightened state is a learnt state. ... I think enlightenment requires only willingness to let go of meaningless meanings. "I don't think it is possible to learn Dhamma, but I do think that Dhamma is what is left when samsara is unlearnt". Htoo in message #40744 and #40746: "Here I do not think idea, concepts, pannatti are equivalent. .. The concept, the idea may well be part of pannindriya cetasika while there is no pannatti as reality. ... I believe that concept, idea, conceptualization are not completely the same as pannatti dhamma". "What we are studying now are accumulating. What we have acquired are not pannatti ...That is why I said Culapanthaka attained arahatta magga nana without pannatti.". Tep's Comment: I think you are talking about the same thing, although the individual points may sound different. It is my understanding that pannatti is the conventional truth (vohara- sacca), that is not paramattha (realities in the highest sense). Concepts are a part of pannatti; they are useful as a vehicle (a "raft") for crossing over the river of samsara, and what we have as the result of Dhamma learning (crossing over the samsara) is the penetration of the paramattha dhamma. Once the Dhamma is learnt, we don't need any concepts or pannatti and there are no thoughts (mental formations, sankhara) in the Arahat. Warm regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear TG (and Howard) > > I try to reply your message. But I already responded to Howard > reagarding concept matter. > > Please see below for discussion. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 40749 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 7:23am Subject: Dhamma Thread (220) Dear Dhamma Friends, So far 4 visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object' have been discussed. They are ati-mahanta-arammana or very clear object, mahanta-arammana or clear object, paritta-arammana or faint object, and ati-paritta- arammana or very faint object. All these are for panca-dvara vithi vara or 'citta processes at arise at 5-sense-doors. When vithi cittas arise at mano-dvara or mind-sense-door or mind door there are two possible vithi varas depending on arammana or object. That arising of object or visaya-pavatti may be one of two alternatives namely vibhuta-arammana or very obvious object and avibhuta-arammana or not-very-obvious object or obvious object. Regarding arammana or object that arise at mind door they have been expalined in the previous posts under heading of Dhamma Thread. The dvara or door for entrance of these arammana or dhamma-arammana or mind object is called manodvara or mind door. This is nama dhamma. It is a citta. It is the citta that arises just before arising of manodvara-avajjana citta or mind-door-adverting consciousness. That citta is called bhavanguppaccheda citta or arresting life-continuing consciousness. When there is arising of bhavanaga cittas continuously there is no other cittas. When a dhamma-arammana or mind object arises the flowing bhavanga cittas are disturbed and mind door opens. That door is bhavanguppaccheda citta or arising of that citta. Then the object enters through that door and mano-dvara-avajjana citta or mind-door- adverting consciousness arises and the object is passed on to the following 7 successive javana cittas. When the dhamma-arammana is very obvious there follow 2 more cittas known as tadarammana cittas and the last tadarammana citta or retaining consciousness is followed by usual bhavanga cittas who take their own object and not the current object of interest[dhamma-arammana here]. So in a vibhuta-arammana vithi cittas will be like the followings. BBBBBBBBBBBBBBMJJJJJJJTTBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB B = bhavanga citta M = manodvara-avajjana citta J = javana citta T = tadarammana citta There are 10 vithi cittas in this vithi vara of vibhuta-arammana visaya-pavatti. In terms of functional classification, there are only 3 kinds of vithi cittas in this vibhuta-arammana or very obvious object. They are avajjana citta [here manodvara-avajjana citta], javana cittas, and tadarammana cittas. Manodvaravajjana citta is one citta only. For javana function here 55 javana cittas can do the job of javana citta at mind door. These 55 javana cittas are a) 12 akusala cittas(most cittas in daily life especially in disaster) b) 1 hasituppada citta (smiling citta of arahats) c) 8 mahakusala cittas(when we have karuna,mudita,bhavana,sila,dana) d) 8 mahakiriya cittas(when arahats do dana,sila, bhavana) e) 5 rupakusala cittas(when in rupa jhana) f) 5 rupakiriya cittas(when arahats are in rupa jhana) g) 4 arupakusala cittas(when in arupa jhana) h) 4 arupakiriya cittas(when arahats are in arupa jhana) i) 4 magga cittas(at the exact time when enlightened at each stage) j) 4 phala cittas(immediately after magga or when in phala samapatti) ---------------- 55 javana cittas But not all these are possible in a given vithi vara. In vibhuta- arammana all are kama objects that is sight, sound, smell, taste, touches and their related ideas. This is why tadarammana cittas follow javana cittas in vibhuta-arammana. Tadarammana cittas are vipaka cittas of kama satta or sensuous planes beings. There are 11 tadarammana cittas. They are 3 santirana cittas and 8 mahavipaka cittas. These 11 cittas are kamavacara cittas. So they arise only in kama bhumi. Brahmas of rupa and arupa do not have any of these 11 cittas. So in vithi vara that arise at vibhuta-arammana there are 3 kinds of vithi citta namely manodvaravajjana citta, javana citta and tadarammana citta. In number of citta there are 1 manodvaravajjana citta, 55 javana cittas and 11 tadarammana cittas. (1+55+11= 67cittas) In avibhuta-rammana tadarammana cittas cannot arise. Instead there follow bhavanga cittas at the end of javana cittas. So in that vithi vara there will be only 2 kinds of vithi citta namely avajjana citta and javana citta and there are 1 manodvaravajjana citta and 55 javana cittas altogether 56 cittas in total. So far there are 6 visaya-pavatti or arising of object. They are 1.ati-mahanta-arammana or very clear object 2.mahanta-arammana or clear object 3.paritta-arammana or faint object 4.ati-paritta-arammana or very faint object in pandva-dvara vithi vara and 5.vibhuta-arammana or very obvious object 6.avibhuta-arammana or obvious object All these 6 are about kama javana vara. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40750 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing Hi Howard, op 07-01-2005 22:47 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Yes, we definitely disagree on this one, Nina. ;-) What is that "body" > it is located in, Nina? There is, from the ultimate perspective, no such > thing - is that not so? N: From birth to death there is body, but it is constituted by different parts which are impermanent. The rupas of the body are originating from kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature. Some parts like the sense organs are definitely originating from kamma. If we keep this in mind there need not be confusion about ultimate realities and conventional realities when talking about eyesense and earsense and where they are located. Sure, they are not located in the sky. Your tree is consists of rupas originating from heat, not from kamma. It has no sense organs. I think I heard you say that Dhamma is taught by means of conventional truth. Conventional truth helps to explain realities. Teaching about body: this is a means of teaching realities. We have to see through the term and the notion of body. The purpose of teaching is always: to help us realizing realities as they are: as impermanent, dukkha, anatta. As you also have stated time and again. You find the rupa nutrition not acceptable. This is the same. Nutrition is a conventional term but it denotes a dhamma: that rupa present in all groups of rupa which supports the other connascent rupas. It is a conditioning factor: nutrition-condition, ahaara-paccaya. It supports and preserves. There are four kinds: one physical and three mental. The three mental nutritions are: contact, volition and consciousness. Nina. 40751 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Hi Matthew, Thank you for your post. I just wrote to Howard again about the purpose of teaching about the body. Earsense is located somewhere, not outside the body. The description of the tiny hairs is merely a means of teaching. The purpose is not medical science but detachment. It is the same in the case of the eye. The Expositor speaks about the fleshly eye and the eyesense rupa. Hearing itself is not a pasada rupa. it arises conditioned by the impingement of sound on the pasada rupa of earsense. Seeing conditions leads to detachment. The rupas are not samutti, they are realities arising because of condiitons and in their turn they serve as conditions. Balance has to do with medical science. A different field. Helpful for curing diseases, but not serving detachment from nama and rupa. Nina. op 08-01-2005 04:38 schreef Matthew Miller op bupleurum@y...: > Why is hearing a pasada rupa but not balance? Balance isn't any more > samutti or pa~n~natti than any of the other senses. They are all > rupas at the sense doors, no? 40752 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Hi Dave, op 07-01-2005 17:21 schreef dharmabum253 op dharmabum253@y...: The traditional Theravadin stance on the > jhanas is that absorption cannot be used for insight practice due to > the mind's being too still to glean any insight. N: Yes, jhana can be proximate cause for insight. When emerging from jhana the yogavacara has to be mindful of nama and rupa and develop all stages of insight. Some people believe that samatha that is not of the degree of jhana can be the proximate cause for insight. As I understand it, jhana has to be attained and then it can be a foundation for insight. This concerns people who have accumulated skill for jhana. D: It is believed that > phala cannot be realized with jhana. N: We have to distnguish mundane jhana and lokuttara jhana. Even for someone who has not developed jhana, lokuttara citta is accompanied by samadhi that has the strength of the concentration of the first jhana. This is because the object is nibbana. D: .... I have also read elsewhere that > the result of the mundane jhanas is rebirth in a desire realm, fine > material realm, etc and that the fruit of jhana practice is not > nirvana. N: Maybe it is clearer now? The practice of jhana alone, without insight cannot lead to enlightenment. The Buddha said this in the suttas. Jhana alone cannot eradicate defilements, but it can temporarily suppress them. But sati and wisdom are needed to develop jhana. The yogavacara has to know precisely when the citta is kusala and when akusala. We can check for ourselves at this very moment: do we know this precisely or not? Nina. 40753 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 7:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] patience, courage and good cheer Dear Connie, Thank you for quoting from the India talks life. I am so glad you find them useful. I add something here and there. op 08-01-2005 06:25 schreef connieparker op connieparker@i...: > > To say it is difficult is praising the wisdom of the Buddha. N: We say, satipatthana is so difficult and it takes so long before even reaching a stage of insight knowledge. Some people become discouraged and are looking for ways to accelerate the development. But this is impossible. Pañña grows because of its own conditions. We actually praise the Buddha when we realize that the way is long and difficult. We can at such a moment remember that the Buddha had to accumulate pañña with utmost perseverance during aeons. He did not come to a halt half-way, he never gave up. No matter how long it took. C: It helps to know how limited our own level is. > Even a sotapanna still needs to hear more. N: It is dangerous to believe that we are advanced. It leads to indolence. The Buddha also warned the monks and told them not to be indolent. Listening and considering is never enough. True, when I listen to recordings I always find new points to consider. C: There's always potential for sati to arise because there are always > realities. > But it is impossible for it to arise without there being intellectual > understanding. N: We have to know what are the objects of sati: dhammas appearing through the six doors, one at a time. They appear now. C: One will not go wrong because one knows the details; it makes for firmness > about the right path. N: We learn about details and we may wonder what is the use if we do not know them through direct experience. But they are beneficial because they are foundation knowledge. At first we may not see their relevance, but later on we can see their benefit. Even the three moments of citta: its arising, the moment of its presence and the moment of its falling away. We cannot experience this now, but it is useful to know. Citta is there for a very short time and then it falls away. It is beneficial to know that rupa lasts longer than citta, then we understand that visible object is not only experienced by seeing, but also by for example akusala cittas with attachment. It helps us to understand that cittas arise in processes. We can understand that the akusala cittas that have just fallen away can still be object of awareness in a following process. It has to be a following process, because akusala cittas cannot arise in the same process as kusala cittas. In this way we can understand the Application of Mindfulness of Citta. The citta with lobha is the first mentioned citta that can be object of awareness. It is encouraging to know that akusala citta can be object of awareness, and that at the moment of awareness the citta is kusala! C: Just to be sankhara khandha for awareness, no expectation. N: Understanding stemming from listening and considering is accumulated as sankhara khandha, the khandha of formations, the cetasikas other than feeling and perception. In combination with other sobhana cetasikas included in sankhara khandha it is the condition for direct awareness and understanding that arise later on. C: Little by little. How many times a day? We don't mind, otherwise lobha is there again. > Just begin again. As we know the way, we'll reach that point. N: No need to count cittas with sati or to measure our progress, that is a waste of time and it distracts from the task of developing understanding at this moment. And that is the sure way. We should have confidence. Thank you, Connie, you helped me and inspired me to consider just a little more. Please continue quoting, it is useful. Nina. 40754 From: Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 3:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/8/05 10:56:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > op 07-01-2005 22:47 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Yes, we definitely disagree on this one, Nina. ;-) What is that "body" > >it is located in, Nina? There is, from the ultimate perspective, no such > >thing - is that not so? > N: From birth to death there is body, but it is constituted by different > parts which are impermanent. The rupas of the body are originating from > kamma, citta, nutrition and temperature. Some parts like the sense organs > are definitely originating from kamma. If we keep this in mind there need > not be confusion about ultimate realities and conventional realities when > talking about eyesense and earsense and where they are located. Sure, they > are not located in the sky. > Your tree is consists of rupas originating from heat, not from kamma. It has > no sense organs. > I think I heard you say that Dhamma is taught by means of conventional > truth. Conventional truth helps to explain realities. Teaching about body: > this is a means of teaching realities. We have to see through the term and > the notion of body. The purpose of teaching is always: to help us realizing > realities as they are: as impermanent, dukkha, anatta. As you also have > stated time and again. > You find the rupa nutrition not acceptable. This is the same. Nutrition is a > conventional term but it denotes a dhamma: that rupa present in all groups > of rupa which supports the other connascent rupas. It is a conditioning > factor: nutrition-condition, ahaara-paccaya. It supports and preserves. > There are four kinds: one physical and three mental. The three mental > nutritions are: contact, volition and consciousness. > Nina. > > ========================= Nina, please see my very recent post to Robert in which I indicate movement in the direction of accepting sense bases as rupas. As I point out there, being able to be experienced is a critical criterion for me. As regards life force and nutrition being rupas, I must hold that in abeyance, and with less likelihood of acceptance than for sense bases being rupas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40755 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 11:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing Hi Robert, Howard, Sarah and All, This reminded me of this from the 'Summary': (42) "Therein, when by means of a concept people bring about knowledge of something that exists in an ultimate sense, such as materiality and feeling, this is a concept of something existent. But when by means of a concept people bring about knowledge of something that does not exist in an ultimate sense, such as the earth or mountains, this is a concept of something non-existent. The others should be understood by the combination of both with reference to respectively 'one who has the six higher knowledges', 'the sound of a woman', 'eye-consciousness' and ' 'a king's son'. Commentary 42. By means of a concept people bring about knowledge: they explain using the words 'materiality', 'feeling', etc. Of both" of the two, existent and non-existent. One who has the six higher knowledges is one who has the six higher knowledges, namely the five higher knowledges and the knowledge of the destruction of the taints. An herein, since the six higher knowledges exist while the person abstaining them does not exist, this is called a concept of the non-existent with the existent. Similarly, since the woman does not exist while the sound does exist, 'the sound of a woman' is a concept of the existent with the nonexistent. Since the sensitive eye and the consciousness dependent on that exist, 'eye-consciousness' is a concept of the existent with the existent. And since the king and the son are conventional realities, 'a kin's son' is a concept of the non-existent with the non-existent. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "rjkjp1" To: Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 10:38 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing > Dear Howard and Sarah, > The Dhamma is often taught using pannatti and paramattha dhamma in > the same sentence. > Take the the expression "woman's voice". The sound is real, but the > woman is not real. 40756 From: Larry Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 11:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Howard: "Nonduality does not mean identity. Nondualism isn't monism. The relationship of nonduality is the relationship of mutual dependence and inseparability, but it does not imply indistinguishability. Again, it is like inside and outside surfaces of a box. They are inseparable, but yet distinguishable and not one. I would agree that the presence of something is much *like* a property of it. Not quite, but very similar. And yes, it is not a subject/object relationship. A knowing subject is, in fact, a "self". There is no such thing. When I had that brief no-self experience I have described, there was no subject. And with that being so, nothing experienced had the flavor of "object", because there was no subject opposing it." Hi Howard, First a language quibble. In my language conventions nondual means not two and dependence means two. Nonduality is necessarily a monism. What else could it be? I think the reason people say nonduality is not a monism is because what they mean by nonduality is that one can't get outside it and count. Counting is necessarily dualistic even if you just count to one. But this is a misunderstanding of an all inclusive monism. However, maybe a compound can be an all inclusive nondual monism in the sense that the elements of the compound are inseparable and we can't get outside it. I think that is what you have here, but it needs a name. What do you want to call the compound of experience and consciousness? I suppose we could call it dependent co-arising. I'm not sure I want to understand pa.ticcasamuppaada this way, but I'll give it a think. As for your experience of no self, there is another way to interpret it. One could see it as a kind of jhana of 5-door consciousness without desire, aversion, and ignorance. This is a kind of suppression. A full understanding of anatta must recognize that the sense of self (desire, aversion, ignorance) is also not self. Larry 40757 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 11:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Studying Abhidhamma can be dangerous Dear Joop, op 08-01-2005 13:44 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: .... I'm not sure at a ontological-psychological level if the > dimension good-evil really exists or only is a human cultural > invention. > I must experience myself if for me the dimension kusala - akusala > exists, in daily life or in meditation. I know being revengeful to > somebody doesn't really help me, but why should I abstract this > insight and call 'revengeful' kusala and 'starting again with > somebody' akusala ? Making it abstract is making a system. N: The Buddha spoke about cause and result. Good and bad deeds bring their results accordingly. That is what he taught. It is up to the individual to agree with it or not. He taught what is kusala and what is akusala. It is understanding that sees the benefit of kusala and the danger of akusala. It depends on the individual's accumulated inclinations whether he understands this or not. I think it does not have to do anything with a system, I do not see it as abstract. Everybody can verify this in his life. When he helps others without thinking of himself, does this bring him more peace? He can verify this. > N: >the number 17 makes sense when we consider one rupa as object > experienced by a whole series of cittas. > Joop: it's funny, that we discuss with different styles. My question > is not if the number 17 makes sense but if this as a empirical fact > brought number is correct or just a metaphorical way of saying. Now I > understand of you that's only a metaphore, meaning: a rupa is > experienced by a human being longer than a citta. N: Several cittas experience one rupa. It is a comparison. The number seventeen is from the Commentaries. But who could count them? It is all too fast. ..... J: > Nina: Study of nama and rupa, of cittas arising in processes, basic > principles of Abhidhamma can help us with the development of insight. > Joop: Yes, that's right, that's important; but not only cittas > arsing, also rupas arising, citta is to me not more important than > rupa. N: Yes, quite right. J: And: not always more than studying 'basic principles' are wholesome: > 1. Buddhism (or whatever label of it was used) was a living, a > dynamical, spiritual movement.....(Snipped).. .... they made a system of it, in > which nothing was forgotten..., in this > way "life", the core, got out buddhism as a spiritual path > by 'translating' the narrative style of the sutta's by a abstract > style of abhidhamma. N: Here I put question marks. To me Abhidhamma is the essence of the suttas. Abhidhamma is life. But I do not try to convince you. I think that several people do not understand what Abhidhamma is. They see it as abstract, dry, bookish. J: 5. So in this way I state: studying Abhidhamma can be dangerous. N: Here you have a point. If one studies in the wrong way, if one studies things which are above one's head, then it can lead to madness. The Expositor warns for this. The study should go together with the development of right understanding in daily life. Understanding of all that appears through the six doors. All that appears through the six doors, that is Abhidhamma. An example of trying to know the impossible is trying to know about particular results of particular kammas. These things are only the Buddha's field. Nina. 40758 From: Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 7:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/8/05 2:49:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > First a language quibble. In my language conventions nondual means > not two and dependence means two. Nonduality is necessarily a monism. > ------------------------------------- Howard: It is not always used that way. Often 'nonduality' means "non-separateness". I've also seen it described as "Not one, not two". In any case, a Buddhist nonduality would be different from monism - it would be a middle-way notion. -------------------------------------- > What else could it be? I think the reason people say nonduality is > not a monism is because what they mean by nonduality is that one > can't get outside it and count. Counting is necessarily dualistic > even if you just count to one. But this is a misunderstanding of an > all inclusive monism. However, maybe a compound can be an all > inclusive nondual monism in the sense that the elements of the > compound are inseparable and we can't get outside it. I think that is > what you have here, but it needs a name. What do you want to call the > compound of experience and consciousness? > ------------------------------- Howard: Why name it? ------------------------------ I suppose we could call it > > dependent co-arising. I'm not sure I want to understand > pa.ticcasamuppaada this way, but I'll give it a think. > > As for your experience of no self, there is another way to interpret > it. One could see it as a kind of jhana of 5-door consciousness > without desire, aversion, and ignorance. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Actually all 6 senses were involved. And unfortunately, fear and aversion also strongly arose, spurring the cessation of the experience.So the subliminal, unrealized sense of self still asserted itself! ;-)) ----------------------------------------- This is a kind of > > suppression. > --------------------------------------- Howard: *What* is a kind of suppression? I don't get you. --------------------------------------- A full understanding of anatta must recognize that the > > sense of self (desire, aversion, ignorance) is also not self. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Well, of course. What is your point? ---------------------------------------------- > > Larry > > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40759 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 0:24pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (220) Thanks Htoo for these threads. They really help me in terms of getting the equivalent pali terms from Burmese version. I can't keep the two straight. - kel 40760 From: Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 7:24am Subject: 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities “Form is like a lump of foam, Feeling like a water bubble; Perception is like a mirage, Volitions like a plantain trunk (coreless), And consciousness like an illusion, (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 952 – 953) Hi All From my perspective, this is a perfectly good way to view concepts as well. It seems to me that the last thing the Buddha would have wanted to a mind to do was to reify these things as "ultimate realities." TG 40761 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 2:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Hi Htoo, Nina and Tep, Htoo, since you asked for comments, this seems to me maybe to fall under sa.nkhaarakha.nda--of course for the arahat, not uppaadanakha.nda. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "htootintnaing" To: Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 5:52 AM Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom > wrote: > > Dear Htoo and Tep, > could we not say that it has to do with accumulations? Not the latent > tendencies, but besides latent tendencies which are seven, there are > manyother qualities accumulated. Citta and cetasikas motivate the > arahat to speak fast, or to use a coarse word. > Nina. > > op 07-01-2005 18:50 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: >> >> Tep: How then should vasana be classified, according to the > Abhidhamma >> >> point of view? What kind of ultimate reality is it? >> > >> Htoo: It would fall under pannatti I think. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Nina, > > What Tep asked is a difficult question. I just tried to reply simply. > When I look into it again what I believe is like the followings. > > An arahat speaks fast. Another arahat speaks slowly. Both behave the > same as before they attained arahatta magga nana. > > Slow or fast is what we are thinking. In arising and passing away of > dhamma such as 'vaci-vinatti', cittas, cetasikas are now all pure in > arahats. But that fastness-slowness cannot be found. > > That is why I put it under panatti. > > Any thoughts or comments on this Nina, Tep and anyone. 40762 From: Larry Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 2:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Howard: "What* is a kind of suppression? I don't get you." Hi Howard, Suppression of the sense of self by concentration. My only point is that the experience of no sense of self is different from insight into no self. You called the experience an experience of no self; I would call it an experience of no sense of self. I believe jhana is traditionally described as suppression but I don't have a quote close at hand. I do see how this experience would provide evidence to invalidate the subject/object relationship in experience/consciousness in showing that a sense of self is unnecessary. There's lots of interesting experiences in meditation and otherwise. Their value is in whether or not they make a difference in one's behavior. Larry 40763 From: m. nease Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 2:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Hi TG, I would agree of course that the Buddha didn't want anyone to reify anything at all--still even leaving the abhidhammapi.taka out altogether, the Buddha made clear distinctions between pa.n.natti and e.g. the elements, khandas etc. As I see it the important distinction is simply that insight into the characteristics of naama and ruupa (in the abhihdhamma sense) eradicates defilements and leads toward the paths, while insight into pa.n.natti does neither (at least not directly--if I'm not mistaken pa.n.natti can function as upanisaya paccaya). So I don't think it matters whether we call them 'ultimate realities' or not, but it does absolutely matter whether we know the difference. It's awfully easy to go through life taking conventional insight (into concepts or pa.n.natti by any other name) for vipassanaa, a terrible trap. I still do it every day, after some thirty years or so of Dhamma (and dhamma) study, however feeble. I've flip-flopped on this a few times but for now, because of the importance of this distinction, I'm inclined to accept 'realities', though somewhat reluctantly (because of the continual 'reification/ontology' confusion). mike ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 12:24 PM Subject: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities “Form is like a lump of foam, Feeling like a water bubble; Perception is like a mirage, Volitions like a plantain trunk (coreless), And consciousness like an illusion, (The Buddha . . . Connected Discourses of the Buddha, vol. 1, pg. 952 – 953) Hi All From my perspective, this is a perfectly good way to view concepts as well. It seems to me that the last thing the Buddha would have wanted to a mind to do was to reify these things as "ultimate realities." 40764 From: Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 9:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sense-door process, rupa. Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/8/05 5:32:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "What* is a kind of suppression? I don't get you." > > Hi Howard, > > Suppression of the sense of self by concentration. > ------------------------------------- Howard: Oh. No, this didn't occur while meditating, and it lasted for a couple hours. There was no apparent heightened concentration, though there was an increased lucidity to perception. ------------------------------------ My only point is > > that the experience of no sense of self is different from insight > into no self. You called the experience an experience of no self; I > would call it an experience of no sense of self. > ------------------------------------- Howard: It was both. Ever since that event, I've *known* there is no self. (The sense of self, however, is very much present.) ----------------------------------- > > I believe jhana is traditionally described as suppression but I don't > have a quote close at hand. I do see how this experience would > provide evidence to invalidate the subject/object relationship in > experience/consciousness in showing that a sense of self is > unnecessary. > > There's lots of interesting experiences in meditation and otherwise. > Their value is in whether or not they make a difference in one's > behavior. > ------------------------------------- Howard: That experience altered my behavior. In particular, I seem to have largely lost my fear of death. ------------------------------------- > > Larry > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40765 From: connieparker Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 4:19pm Subject: Re: Seeing & Hearing Hi, Mike (and All), The passage you quoted from the "Summary" reminded me of this one from another "Summary": In the Abhidhammatthavibhaavinii.tiikaa, chapter 8, there is a passage saying there are six naama pa~n~nattis, namely: 1) Vijjamana pa~n~nattis are conventional terms for realities that exist such as ruupa, nama, vedanaa, sa~n~naa etc. 2) Avijjamana pa~n~nattis are conventional terms without existing realities such as Thai, "Farang" etc. There are no Thai or Farang, only realities that are cittas, cetasikas and ruupas. Thai and Farang are conventional terms and not realities. Akusala citta are paramatthadhammas, realities that exist, not Thai or Farang. Therefore, akusala cittas exist, as do kusala cittas but Thai and Farang do not. The words Thai and Farang, therefore, are avijjamana pa~n~nattis. 3) Vijjamanenavijjamanaa pa~n~nattis are conventional terms for non-existent with existing things. For example, to say that a person is called chalabhi~n~na because of the meaning 'possessing the 6 abhi~n~nas'; abhi~n~nas really exist but a person does not: such is the conventional term for non-extant with extant things. 4) Avijjamanenavijjamana pa~n~nattis are conventional terms for existent with non-existent things. For example, the sound of a woman: sound exists but a woman does not. 5) Vijjamanenavijjamana pa~n~nattis are conventional terms for existent with existent things. For example, cakkhu vi~n~naa.na: cakkhu exists as cakkhuppasaada, and vi~n~naa.na exists as a consciousness. 6) Avijjamanenavijjamanaa pa~n~nattis are conventional terms for non-existent with non-existent thing such as the son of a king. (The son and the king are both conventional terms). [End excerpt] peace, connie 40766 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 4:33pm Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence/Tep and Nina Dear Tep and Nina, Tep, thank you for your mention of samadhi nimitta which prompted Nina to mention some suttas in the Book of Tens and the Samyutta Nikaya. There are different forms of meditation - not all done while sitting with breath as the object. Nina - you mention writing something on Beginners and Progress. I would very much like to see you do this, and would find it beneficial. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Hi Chris - > > Before starting to write this mail, I read your message twice. A question > came to my mind about what conditions (paccaya) we must keep > throughout each day such that "great interest, strong enthusiam, > confidence, contentment in the practice" can be maintained. > > Then I recalled a sutta I had read long ago. It says that the monk can > be steady in the progress toward Nibbana when he keeps a "samadhi > nimitta" in the morning, in the evening, and at night. I am not sure what it > may mean to most people who don't do meditation. > > > Warmest regards, > > > Tep > > ======== > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > Strange, isn't it ... how enthusiam for the Dhamma wafts and > > wanes ... ? > > I've noticed a pattern over the last year or so - great interest, > > strong enthusiam, confidence, contentment in the practice .. and > > then, boredom, alienation, doubt, discontent. I'm at the bottom of > > that cycle at the moment - hope it is a cycle - not sure what to do - > > other than having patience, and keeping on keeping on .... > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > --- The trouble is that you think you have time--- 40767 From: David Cosentino Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 5:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: jhanas Thanks. This approach seems very similar to the self-inquiry of Ramana Maharshi. One trains the mind on itself until nirvikalpa samadhi is attained which is complete cessation. --- kelvin_lwin wrote: > > > Hi Dave, > > > someone could offer me some of their personal > experience or some > > scriptural reference. The traditional Theravadin > stance on the > > I certainly can't give scriptural references as > I'm sure other > people in DSG can. Hopefully someone will furnish > them for you. > However, I can offer some personal views and what I > was taught. ... 40768 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 4:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Doubt and Confidence/Howard and TG Hello Howard and TG, Howard, thank you for clarifying that it is attachment at work - sometimes an understanding we already have has been temporarily hidden and needs to be refreshed by dhamma friends. :-) Dry periods are tedious - but to rest patiently is all that is needed. TG, interesting how we welcome re-assurance that we're normal:-) It is helpful to know of the tedious or forgetful times in the lives of others, and that they have come through it O.K. - thanks for sharing that. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Christine - > > In a message dated 1/4/05 3:11:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, > cforsyth1@b... writes: > > > Hello all, > > > > Strange, isn't it ... how enthusiam for the Dhamma wafts and > > wanes ... ? > > I've noticed a pattern over the last year or so - great interest, > > strong enthusiam, confidence, contentment in the practice .. and > > then, boredom, alienation, doubt, discontent. I'm at the bottom of > > that cycle at the moment - hope it is a cycle - not sure what to do - > > other than having patience, and keeping on keeping on .... > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > ==================== > Yes, there is an up-down-up-down cycle. The reason, I think, is that > for all but arahants (or maybe also anagami) there is attachment to "progress". > When our practice, however we view "practice", seems to be "going well", we > rejoice and have confidence and enthusiasm, but when it seems to "go badly", we > exhibit, as you say, "boredom, alienation, doubt, and discontent." (Of course > an ariyan will not have the doubt.) This cycle is a special case, I think, of > samsara, our wandering on, buffeted by the waves of tanha and upadana - now > raised high on the crest of a wave, and then dashed low to the trough. > The solution? Just as you say: "having patience, and keeping on > keeping on." > > With metta, > Howard > 40769 From: David Cosentino Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 8:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Nina- Thank you for your response. Can you elaborate on this: N: We have to distnguish mundane jhana and lokuttara jhana. Even for someone who has not developed jhana, lokuttara citta is accompanied by samadhi that has the strength of the concentration of the first jhana. This is because the object is nibbana. What do you mean by "for someone who has not developed jhana, lokuttara citta is accompanied by samadhi that has the strength of the concentration of the first jhana." And what do you mean by nibbana being an object? Thank you! --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Dave, > op 07-01-2005 17:21 schreef dharmabum253 op > dharmabum253@y...: > The traditional Theravadin stance on the > > jhanas is that absorption cannot be used for > insight practice due to > > the mind's being too still to glean any insight. > N: Yes, jhana can be proximate cause for insight. > When emerging from jhana > the yogavacara has to be mindful of nama and rupa > and develop all stages of > insight. Some people believe that samatha that is > not of the degree of jhana > can be the proximate cause for insight. As I > understand it, jhana has to be > attained and then it can be a foundation for > insight. This concerns people > who have accumulated skill for jhana. ... 40770 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 4:49pm Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence/Joop and Herman Hello Joop and Herman, Joop, I'm sorry you 'have it too at this moment.' We're all really in the same boat struggling towards insight - even if there are different difficulties for each of us. Let us 'walk on'. Herman, thank you for these remarks. Your father sounds like one of my Zen friends. :-) Leight Brassington's made me smile - it's just what DOES worry most of humanity! And your remark ... not sure ... "real" doesn't mean "known". What is "real" may be beyond doubt once it is "known" - and may still be beyond discussion, unless everybody in the discussion "knows IT". metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jwromeijn" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" > wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > Strange, isn't it ... how enthusiam for the Dhamma wafts and > > wanes ... ? > > I've noticed a pattern over the last year or so - great interest, > > strong enthusiam, confidence, contentment in the practice .. and > > then, boredom, alienation, doubt, discontent. I'm at the bottom of > > that cycle at the moment - hope it is a cycle - not sure what to > ... > > Dear Christine > > O yes, I recognize this and have it myself too on this moment. > To be honest: it's not for buddhism in general but for the scholastic > Abhidhamma details (which I called in a not yet finished discussion > with Sarah 'orthodoxy'). > I now think the study of it's details are not fruitfull for me now; I > think (intuition !) now doing (insight-) meditation and studying > sutta's and sutra's are more fruitfull. And perhaps in half a year > studying Abhidhamma helps me again: there are more paths to > enlightenment. > > Metta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" > > My father appends his posts with "No matter were you go, there you > are". > > The following is a vague memory of something Leigh Brassington may > have said "Don't worry about it, you'll never get out of this alive" > > And I say "What is real is beyond doubt, and beyond discussion. > Whatever you doubt can be safely discarded as being unreal" > > > Cheers, big ears > > > Herman > > Joop 40771 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 4:58pm Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence/Phil and Azita Hello Phil, and Azita, Phil, thank you for this post. It is helpful to hear of others difficulties - and noteworthy that strong enthusiasm is also a difficulty. Not what many would realise until it disrupts ones life. :-) Seems that anything that 'unbalances' life by too much of anything is a problem. Yes - work is exhausting sometimes - I'll post later about Compassion in a workplace situation, and ask what Compassion really is. As you say - hang in there! :-) Azita, I found the quote very pertinent. Along with the desire for certainty, there is also the desire for kalyanmitta - not at Cooran, not in Bangkok, not in Cairns, not in America ... but right here, right now.:-) Thanks for popping your signature line in front of my eyes "patience, courage and good cheer" indeed. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Hi Christine, and all > > > Strange, isn't it ... how enthusiam for the Dhamma wafts and > > wanes ... ? > > I haven't read everyone's response, so sorry for any redundancy. > > I'm interested in this issue because I am also aware of the way > interest rises and falls due to conditions. I have talked a few times > on and off list about how I was frustrated by having an all consuming > interest in Dhamma that made it impossible to concentrate on my other > interests. I was able to see that this was beyond my control and > instead of trying to supress it I should let it ride its course - and > now it seems it has, and a maintainable balance has come about. Still > keenly interested, but able to think about other things as well. But > aware that the all-consuming interest could re-arise at any time. I > can't control it. > > I would say that the insights and encouragements you've gained from > the Buddha's teaching have *definitely* conditioned the re-arising of > more of the same. Well, you know that already, I'm sure. So yes, > patience. Someone has already mentionned this, I'm sure, but as we > know the Buddha was assailed by Mara in various forms, from the > horrific to the sensually enticing. I'm sure Mara also appeared as a > doubt-inducing drag at times as well! > > I remember when you posted after returning from India about your > discouragement I wondered if it might be related to your work. You > work day in day out in close association with people who are > suffering very deeply from specific and identifiable causes (if I'm > not mistaken.) I wonder if this conditions frustration in you at > times, because as we know Dhamma's deep benefits accrue in the space > of lifetimes rather than in the short term, and it's in the short > term that the people you see day in day out need relief from their > suffering. Also, we know that according to the Buddha's teaching, > people are suffering in this lifetime due to kamma. It seems terrible > to say that someone was born to abusive parents due to kamma, but we > know that this is the case. So again there is a conflict between > conventional understanding of such issues, and Dhamma understanding, > which might be doubt inducing. > > In any case, hang in there, Christine. As I said above, the > Dhamma "on" periods will have conditioned more of the same. Patience > is one of the Buddha perfections, as we know. > > Metta, > Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > > Dear Chris, > I think its fairly common for this to occur. > > here is a quote which I recite to me on occasions, > > "i'm blind, my eyes are destroyed. > i'v stumbled on a wilderness track. > even if I must crawl, i'll go on, > but not with an evil companion". > Thag.95 > > patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita. > 40772 From: Christine Forsyth Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 5:15pm Subject: Compassion .. Idiot Compassion .. Conspicuous Compassion Hello All, I've been thinking a lot about the "C" word in recent days ... Compassion. I'm reflecting on its different facets and wondering if everything I see occurring in response to certain situations is really compassion, or maybe something unwholesome masquerading as compassion. It seems to me that Compassion is a term that is pretty freely thrown around, and doesn't have a precisely agreed meaning. Some take it to mean loving all beings with warm and fuzzy feelings, allowing people to behave how they will and enduring and forgiving all. Others would describe this as 'Idiot Compassion'. In my work situtation, it is essential in the rather hot-house environment of crisis counselling in an acute hospital that close colleagues should relate to each other in a supportive, non- competitive, non-controlling way. There is so much stress in the succession of situations we are exposed to in any typical day, that all one's energy has to be focused on the patients and their emotional and physical needs, and in ensuring that all staff involved care for themselves and their colleagues in such a way that no-one burns out or develops secondary PTSD. But, as can happen in any group or close community, there has been one individual over the last few years who has consistently fractured the cohesion - e.g. by using passive-aggressive language, targeting and harassing individual staff members, splitting staff with 'behind the scenes' manipulation and half truths, causing new locums to resign, changing admin systems and not informing other staff and destroying texts and other handouts he thinks are not 'state of the art'. When the behaviour is addressed with the person - it conditions long wrangling debates where any shortcomings are denied, the victim is blamed as the 'real' aggressor, and it is passed off as a wilful misunderstanding of good intentions. In ongoing discussion with staff managers, many have wondered what the most skilfull way was to deal with such individuals, who otherwise are intelligent, talented, and creative therapists. Firstly, it was suggested that supervisors could be compassionate to the disruptive one. Compassion in this sense was not defined, but in action seems to mean being unendingly forgiving of everything the person does, and has done repetitively over many years. This is what I call Idiot Compassion - where a clear pattern can be seen of cohesion continually being destroyed, where many individuals are hurt, resign and are not brought to their full potential - and this one person alone is treated with 'compassion'. In my mind it seems to indicate that the managers are 'enabling' the continuing damaging behaviour - and their attitude unconsciously indicates to all that one person is much more valuable than others. From a Buddhist pov this is not loving all beings. Far from being helpless observers, the managers are equally destructive players in this Great Game. The first way (the IC Way) has been used for years - with the pattern continuing to repeat without any objectively measurable change. When I was speaking to friends, pointing out the repetitive pattern that we are all part of, one of them who knows I am a Buddhist, said 'what would you do in this situation?' I said I would give clear boundaries, close supervision of day to day activities for a long period, with firm consequences for unreasonable and disruptive behaviour. The friend then said 'what would the Buddha tell you to do in this situation?' Now ... I don't wish to put words in the Buddha's mouth ... so easy to find a few words here and there to support any position. But what would the Buddha do? What do the suttas say that would be a guide about how to behave where there is a repetitive pattern, and many are being hurt by one, who (some think) is also suffering? I want to say more on the topic of Conspicuous Compassion - but this post is already too long - so maybe later on. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 40773 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 6:01pm Subject: Re: Concepts and Questions Tep's Comment: I think you are talking about the same thing, although the individual points may sound different. It is my understanding that pannatti is the conventional truth (vohara-sacca), that is not paramattha (realities in the highest sense). Concepts are a part of pannatti; they are useful as a vehicle (a "raft") for crossing over the river of samsara, and what we have as the result of Dhamma learning (crossing over the samsara) is the penetration of the paramattha dhamma. Once the Dhamma is learnt, we don't need any concepts or pannatti and there are no thoughts (mental formations, sankhara) in the Arahat. Warm regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Howard, TG, Herman and All, Regarding truth, there are conventional truth or 'samuti sacca' and ultimate truth or 'paramattha sacca'. Samuti sacca or conventional truths are not always true. For example 'water boils at 100 degrees Centigrade'. Even though it is true most of the time, this statement is not always true. But unlike 'samuti sacca' or conventional truth, 'paramattha sacca' or ultimate truths are always true and they are ultimate realities. Pannatti are 2 kinds. They are sadda-pannatti and attha-pannatti. 1. sadda-pannatti This is based on voice sound. Sadda means 'sound'. Example is 'water' 1. water 2. mitsu 3. paani 4. udaka 5. sui 6. yay 7. aapa All these have their different sounding. But their meaning is just 'water'. As these 7 words are based on 'voice sound produced by different races of people, all these 7 words are 'sadda-pannatti'. But each has their own meaning bearing it is 'water'. When 'water' is understood, what understood is called attha-pannatti. Attha means 'meaning' 'glossary' 'essence'. But when we investigate 'where is water' 'what is water', we cannot find any water at all. This means that there is no 'water' in reality or as ultimate truth. 1. We see what we call water. But this is just seeing and seeing consciousness. 2. When we drink water we taste it. It is taste but not water. 3. When we touch water, we are not touching water but coldness-warmth or force of water when it is moving like tsunami or consistency of it which we can sense through striking it with our palms or when we swim under water while body is moving the hardness-softness or consistency is felt through the body. But there is no water at all. When Culapanthaka was taught by his older brother, there were many pannatti in them and Culapanthaka could not retain them. The Buddha just instructed him with a few words. This is communication and communicating words but not conceptualising dhamma to attain arahatta magga nana. That is why I said Culapanthaka attain unaided by pannatti. When he heard from The Buddha is pannatti, yes. This is right. But what I have been talking was dhamma attainment. Culapanthaka just rubbed and said what he was instructed. Even though he was rubbing and saying he was still weeping in despair. But when he saw changes in the rubbing cloth he was out of pannatti and with this recognition of change (anicca) he was rocketed up till arahatta magga nana. Actually he attained anicca sanna long long time ago many lives before his final Culapanthaka life. But because of akusala vipaka his power was down and domant. The Buddha knew this and helped him. When the rich man offered food to The Buddha and 998 arahats The Buddha stopped the host householder and told that there left a bhikkhu at the monastry. Mahapanthaka was so sure that there was no one as he drove out his younger brother. [He did not know that The Buddha did not allow Culapanthaka to leave the monastry and sasana.] The rich man sent one of his followers to the monastry. The servant went there and found that there were 1000 of bhikkhus in the monastry. He reported to The Buddha. Mahapanthaka was shocked to hear that. The Buddha instructed the servant to ask who was Culapanthaka. The man went there again and asked who Culapanthaka was. All 1000 bhikkhus answered 'I am Culapanthaka' 'I am Culapanthaka' I am also Culapanthaka' and the whole monastry was full of bhikkhus and noisy by Culapanthakas answers. He came back to The Buddha and reported that all 1000 bhikkhus were Culapanthakas. Then The Buddha instructed him when he heard the first voice then to take by hand that bhikkhu and ask him to come along with him to The Buddha. He went there again and did what The Buddha instructed. As soon as he did as The Buddha instructed all other Culapanthakas disappeared. All these Culapanthakas except the original one were just cittaja rupa created by jhana powers. Again these rupas are realities unlike pannatti. What I argued with Howard is the idea, the concept. Why did The Buddha instructed him to rub that cloth/rag? Concepts may be pannatti. By why The Buddha instructed in such a particular way is because of pannindriya cetasikas. Panna is not pannatti. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40774 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 6:06pm Subject: Re: Dhamma Thread (220) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Thanks Htoo for these threads. They really help me in terms of > getting the equivalent pali terms from Burmese version. I can't > keep the two straight. > > - kel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Kel, Dhamma Thread posts can easily be traced at JourneyToNibbana Yahoo Group. As it is not as busy as others messages can easily be followed. With Metta, Htoo Naing 40775 From: Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 1:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities In a message dated 1/8/2005 2:51:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, mlnease@z... writes: Hi TG, I would agree of course that the Buddha didn't want anyone to reify anything at all--still even leaving the abhidhammapi.taka out altogether, the Buddha made clear distinctions between pa.n.natti and e.g. the elements, khandas etc. As I see it the important distinction is simply that insight into the characteristics of naama and ruupa (in the abhihdhamma sense) eradicates defilements and leads toward the paths, while insight into pa.n.natti does neither (at least not directly--if I'm not mistaken pa.n.natti can function as upanisaya paccaya). So I don't think it matters whether we call them 'ultimate realities' or not, but it does absolutely matter whether we know the difference. It's awfully easy to go through life taking conventional insight (into concepts or pa.n.natti by any other name) for vipassanaa, a terrible trap. I still do it every day, after some thirty years or so of Dhamma (and dhamma) study, however feeble. I've flip-flopped on this a few times but for now, because of the importance of this distinction, I'm inclined to accept 'realities', though somewhat reluctantly (because of the continual 'reification/ontology' confusion). mike Hi Mike I basically agree with you with some subtle differences. The reasons I've been pushing this issue... 1) I believe that discerning things as realities vs non-realities, though important, is way overrated. 2) Calling things non-realities or realites, tends to see the non-realities as empty (which is fine) and realities as substantial (which is not fine). 3) In the thousands of pages of Suttas, can't recall a single instance of the Buddha saying we need to regard or distinguish the 5 aggregates as realities. I believe insight requires the following type of outlook regarding the "so-called realities," no more, and no less... “Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it toward the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbana.’ Standing upon that, he attains destruction of the taints.â€? (The Buddha . . . Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, pg. 540, The Greater Discourse to Malunkyaputta, Mahamalunkyaputta Sutta, #64) TG 40776 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 6:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Hi Htoo, Nina and Tep, Htoo, since you asked for comments, this seems to me maybe to fall under sa.nkhaarakha.nda--of course for the arahat, not uppaadanakha.nda. mike ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Mike, Thank you very much for your kind input. It makes sense that you said 'this seems to me maybe to fall under sankhaara.kkhandhaa or arahat.' Yes, it may well be. Example is viriya cetasika. It is a part of sankhara.kkhandha. When we smile we need viriya. When we speak viriya. When we meditate we need viriya. Speaking fast is pushed by viriya. I think habit reside in sankhara.kkhandha. Because cetana is already pure in arahattas. Thanks for your thought. With Metta, Htoo Naing 40777 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 6:33pm Subject: Re: Compassion .. Idiot Compassion .. Conspicuous Compassion I want to say more on the topic of Conspicuous Compassion - but this post is already too long - so maybe later on. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Christine, Of course it is. So I snipped away all except your last sentence :-). I do hope you do not mind. When I have read your message I grasped an idea to discuss the matter you raised. Compassion is a mixed term. But it at least works for 'karuna'. Karuna is a cetasika. It is one of 2 appamanna cetasikas namely 'karuna' and 'mudita'. They are practised by those who want to stay like brahma and these bhavanas are called bramhavihara or brahmacariya. Even though objects for all 4 kinds of meditation of brahmaviharas are the same that is satta-pannatta or beings, in actual term they are not the same and even different. The object of karuna is 'satta in needs of something'. Examples are tsunami victims. We all are also victims and that is why The Buddha has the greatest compassion on us. We are victims of our samsara, which is full of tear and suffering and pain. So the object of karuna has to be 'poor beings' and they have to be in some way poor. They may be poor of food, poor of shelter, poor of health, poor of education, poor of knowledge, poor of enlightenment and endless poor things. On the other hand, mudita takes different object. That object is 'satta in fulfiled state'. This may be anything of any achievement. Example even though The Buddha had great compassion, when he saw Sariputta Thera attain arahatta magga and greatest wisdom after Him, The Buddha might have mudita on Sariputta instead of karuna. Because Sariputta was no more poor but he became rich with panna. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: The managers' behaviour may be other dhamma. 40778 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 6:51pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (221) Dear Dhamma Friends, So far 6 visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object' have been discussed. But in manodvara vithi vara in the previous post I mentioned that there are 3 kinds of vithi citta, 10 cittuppada (10 arising of citta) and 67 total cittas. This is just in total. When javanas are kamavacara manodvara javana vara javana cittas are just 29 kama javana cittas. They are 1. 12 akusala cittas 2. 1 hasituppada citta 3. 8 mahakusala cittas 4. 8 mahakiriya cittas ---------- 29 cittas This is true when foregoing vithi varas were kama vithi varas. In that case 1.manodvaravajjana, 2.29 kama javana cittas, 3.11 tadarammana cittas altogether 41 cittas can take 10 positions for citta as 3 kinds of vithi citta. BBBBMJJJJJJJTTBBBBBB 1. M-manodvaravajjana[avajjana vithi] 2 to 8. JJJJJJJ-29 kama javana cittas [javana vithi] 9&10. TT-11 tadarammana cittas[tadarammana] When arammana or object is visual object, vithi cittas that arise becomes cakkhudvara vithi vara. When sound sotadvara vithi vara, when smell ghanadvara vithi vara, when taste jivhadvara vithi vara, and when touch kayadvara vithi vara. These terms depend on dvara or door. When based on consciousness they are called 1.cakkhuvinnana vithi vara, sotavinnana vithi vara, ghanavinnana vithi vara, jivhavinnana vithi vara, and kayavinnana vithi vara. All these are kama vithi vara. When they are taken up by manodvara vithi citta there have to arise kama javana vara. At manodvara there are other manodvara vithi varas apart from kama javana vara. They are appana javana varas like jhana javana vara, magga javana vara, phala javana vara, jhana samapatti vithi vara, phala samapatti vithi vara, abhinna javana vara, and nirodha samapatti vara. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40779 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 7:22pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (222) Dear Dhamma Friends, Before moving on appana javana vara, I would like to touch again kama javana vara for tadarammana cittas. Tadarammana cittas or retention consciousness or retaining consciousness are performed by 3 santirana cittas and 8 mahavipaka cittas. While all 8 mahavipaka cittas are kusala-vipaka cittas not all santirana cittas or investigating consciousness are kusala-vipaka cittas. 1 is akusala-vipaka citta and 2 are kusala-vipaka cittas. Again one is upekkha santirana kusala-vipaka citta and another is somanassa santirana kusala-vipaka citta. So 10 cittas are kusala-vipaka cittas and 1 citta is akusala-vipaka citta. 2 upekkha santirana cittas can serve as patisandhi citta, bhavanga citta and cuti citta apart from santirana function and tadarammana function. When the object is anittha-arammana or disagreeable object all vipaka cittas that arise because of this anittha-arammana or disagreeable object are akusala vipaka cittas. Example is here. When we see disasters or hear them panca-vinnana citta will be akusala vipaka panca-vinnana citta and then it is followed by akusala vipaka sampaticchana and akusala vipaka santirana. This is followed by kiriya citta, votthapana citta or determining consciousness. The following javana cittas will depend on our accumulation. If mindful that is if there is sati cetasika which is sobhana cetasika then sobhana cittas will arise as javana cittas. If not mindful akusala javana cittas will arise such as domanassa citta. Again after that if there are 2 more moments for object to persist tadarammana cittas will arise and as the object is anittha-arammana then all tadarammana cittas will be akusala vipaka citta that is the only tadarammana citta 'upekkha sahagatam ahetuka akusala vipaka santirana citta'. Here all vipaka cittas arise 'RIGHTLY'. But javana cittas may vary and they will depend on satta concern. Example is smelling or seeing of rotten flesh is definitely anittha-arammana or disagreeable object. But in that object javana cittas may be 1. lobha javana cittas[e.g: vultures as it is their food] 2. dosa javana cittas [e.g: ordinary people as they dislike therotten] 3. moha javana citta[rare but there may be uddhacca cittas] 4. mahakusala javana cittas[ if mindful] 5. mahakiriya javana cittas[ if arahats] Here tadarammana citta after mahakiriya of arahattas will be akusala vipaka santirana as the object is anittha-arammana. When vultures develop lobha javana cittas their tadarammana cittas will not be somanassa tadarammana even though lobha cittas may be somanassa javana cittas. Because the object is anittha-arammana. Vipaka cittas arise 'RIGHTLY' when javana cittas arise variably. This is well-known to Myanmar Dhamma friends as 'Vipaka's right, javana may not be right' [wipek ahman- zaw apyan]. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40780 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 7:23pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Seeing & Hearing -Thanks Mike, I was looking for this. It is also in one of the commentaries, do you have the exact reference. robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "m. nease" wrote: > Hi Robert, Howard, Sarah and All, > > This reminded me of this from the 'Summary': > > (42) "Therein, when by means of a concept people bring about knowledge of > something that exists in an ultimate sense, such as materiality and feeling, > this is a concept of something existent. But when by means of a concept > people bring about knowledge of something that does not exist in an ultimate > sense, such as the earth or mountains, this is a concept of 40781 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 7:30pm Subject: Re: Compassion .. Idiot Compassion .. Conspicuous Compassion --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > > Now ... I don't wish to put words in the Buddha's mouth ... so easy > to find a few words here and there to support any position. But > what would the Buddha do? What do the suttas say that would be a > guide about how to behave where there is a repetitive pattern, and > many are being hurt by one, who (some think) is also suffering? > > I ======= Dear Christine, Once the Buddha was addressing the monks during the Patimokkha and he observed that one of the monks was full of evil wishes. He stopped the recitation and asked the monk to leave. But the monk stayed where he was, until Moggallana forcefully took hold of his arm and removed him from the assembly. All done with compassion. RobertK 40782 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 7:37pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (223) Dear Dhamma Friends, When the object is ati-ittha-arammana or highly agreeable object like golden image of real size Live Buddha vipaka cittas will all be ahetuka kusala vipaka cittas. After panca-dvara-avajjana citta or 5-door-adverting consciousness there follows panca-vinnana citta of kusala vipaka. Then followed by kusala vipaka sampaticchana citta or receiving consciousness and then kusala vipaka santirana citta or investigating consciousness. After that kiriya citta, votthapana citta or determining consciousness which is manodvara-avajjana-citta or mind-door-adverting consciousness will arise. As it is ati-ittha-arammana or highly agreeable object, next arising javana cittas will all be sobhana cittas like mahakusala cittas or mahakiriya cittas. These javana cittas are followed by kusala vipaka tadarammana cittas. This is unlike anittha-arammana, 'vipaka cittas arise 'RIGHTLY' and javana cittas also arise 'RIGHTLY'. That is 'vipaka's right, javana's also right'[wipek ahman- zaw lai hman]. There might be some exceptional cases. For example those 'who hate The Buddha' would hate Buddha images and would destroy them like Talibans. Soon after the great image was bombed they were bombed by superpower as all could see in the past. Again what arise intially will be 'vipaka is right, javana is also right. What arise later at manodvara as javana cittas will be according to their accumulation and hatred lead them to do all bad things. But whatever it is initially there will be 'right vipaka' and 'right javana'. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40783 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 7:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > > 2) Calling things non-realities or realites, tends to see the non- realities > as empty (which is fine) and realities as substantial (which is not fine). > > ========== Dear TG, This problem might be becuase of not understanding the pali well. In the foreword to Realities and Concepts (Sujin Boriharnwanaket) it says: "The Pali terms promote clarity.., they are used becuase the English words are too approximate and have varying connotations. Reality, for instance, is the usual Engish translation of dhamma. It can also be translated as thing or phenomenon. Yet these English terms may imply something substantial whereas dhammas are fundamentally evanescent" RobertK 40784 From: connieparker Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 8:21pm Subject: right effort Dear Amara and Friends, As you say, we can't control our thoughts and even though it may seem like certain ones might bother us "all the time", the cittas are ever-changing. We cannot be thinking at the moments there are panca-dvara-vithis, for instance. It does seem like we're thinking all the time, though and it's all too easy to get caught up in that without realizing it. I guess most of the time, when it is good or nuetral thoughts, we don't really mind and that is a large part of the reason we are all still here, looking for more 'good things' to enjoy. Sometimes, we don't really think about dukkha until it is dukkha-dukkha and we are unhappy for one reason or another. And I think then, the impulse is usually to just want to get rid of the 'bad thing' as fast as we can so we can enjoy again, which must be a wrong effort even if it does seem to make us happy for awhile. Still, when you read some descriptions of 'right effort', it does sound like we can control and direct our thoughts as we wish. The following is a paraphrasing of a part of a lecture on "The Eightfold Path" by Bhikkhu Bodhi where he is discussing the 4 aspects of right effort / sammaa viriya: 1. making an effort to prevent the unwholesome unarisen from arising - mainly by controlling or watching over our senses and 'registering and noting without reacting by way of greed and aversion'. 2. abandon arisen unwholesome states/defilements - eliminating them by a variety of methods such as replacing them by the opposite thought or reflecting on noble qualities; developing a keen sense of danger in unwholesomeness which prevents the accomplishment of good; diverting the mind to another object such as breathing; observing the thoughts to see how they arise and gradually stilling them, tracing the sequence back; and as a last ditch effort, combatting the thought to dispell it from the mind. [I think this last is the so-called 'clenched teeth method']. 3. develop the undeveloped wholesomeness/virtuous states of mind or bring forth and cultivate the beautiful potential stored in the the mind. 4. avoid falling into complacency and make the effort to sustain, maintain and increase arisen wholesome states, bringing them to full growth and completion; make the mind bright, pure, radiant. I think if we read those to say we can just sit down and make it happen, it can be pretty discouraging when it doesn't turn out that way. I think it might be better to consider that those are the functions of viriya itself, and not something "I can do" or should be able to do. Even when we make the conventional effort, the result would depend on the viriya (and other conditions), not the self we are used to thinking of as "doing". Until viriya has developed to the point where it is one of the bala or powers, it is only natural that there would be some discouragement, I think. "Effort" is another example of where the English translation doesn't quite work. To just say 'effort' doesn't really say anything about viriya's function as "the effort and perseverance in taking note, examining, knowing the characteristics of naamadhamma and ruupadhamma appearing. (Sammohavinodani, the commentary of Vibha"ngapakara.na Iddhipaadavibha"nganiddesa)" [SPD] and we can lose the sense of it being part of the five-fold satipatthana. It is essential in assisting sati to know the present arammana so that panna, which is the understanding or 'truth that sets you free', can develop. So I guess the question becomes, how does viriya come to have any strength and right focus? Or, how is it exercised? And the answer to that would also be in the SPD: "The study and consideration of the impermanence of realities is viriyaarambha kathaa (words that condition viriya to study the dhamma). This is to enable sati to be mindful of the characteristics of realities that appear and to study and examine until one knows that they are not self but simply naamadhammas and ruupadhammas of different characteristics that are appearing through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body sense or mind." peace, connie 40785 From: connieparker Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 9:40pm Subject: Re: right effort Sorry All, 'wrong effort' when I picked the address for that one! peace, connie 40786 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 9:54pm Subject: Re: right effort Hi All, > something "I can do" or should be able to do. Even when > we make the conventional effort, the result would depend on the viriya > (and other conditions), not the self we are used to thinking of as > "doing". Until viriya has developed to the point where it is one of the > bala or powers, it is only natural that there would be some > discouragement, I think. > > "Effort" is another example of where the English translation doesn't quite > work. To just say 'effort' doesn't really say anything about viriya's > function as "the effort and perseverance in taking note, examining, > knowing the characteristics of naamadhamma and ruupadhamma appearing. > (Sammohavinodani, the commentary of Vibha"ngapakara.na > Iddhipaadavibha"nganiddesa)" [SPD] and we can lose the sense of it http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6e.htm is a good exposition on the role of viriya and what it means to be indriya. It makes a difference between bodily viriya and mental factor viriya. http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6f.htm is on the meaning of balas. - kel 40787 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jan 8, 2005 10:30pm Subject: Re: right effort --Nice post though, Connie robert - In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, connieparker wrote: > > Sorry All, 'wrong effort' when I picked the address for that one! > peace, > connie 40788 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 0:38am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, James Hope you haven't forgotten our thread ;-)) Sorry for the delay in replying. buddhatrue wrote: >You have been a practicing Buddhist for >how many years? And you still think you have weak awareness and >insight? Come on!! > Thanks for the promotion to beyond the 'beginner' ranks ;-)) However, I'm sticking with my present diagnosis of weak and undeveloped insight. I suppose it all depends on what you mean by 'insight'. To my understanding it's something that arises of its own accord, without any 'practising' for it. > As the Buddha taught: > >"And how is a monk one with a sense of himself? There is the case >where a monk knows himself: 'This is how far I have come in >conviction, virtue, learning, liberality, discernment, quick- >wittedness.' ... This is one with a sense of Dhamma, a sense of meaning, & a >sense of himself." > > A good passage. But I think 'knowing how far one has come' means neither overestimating nor underestimating that measure. (BTW, do you have a reference for this passage? thanks.) >... Perhaps you could go through each of the path factors and >explain how they each arise at path entry? ... I believe that all >eight path factors must be in play at the same moment of >enlightenment, or one couldn't realize the Four Noble Truths. >However, I think that this is different than what you are >suggesting. Could you be so kind as to explain further? > > Actually, your comment that that 'all eight path factors must be in play at the same moment of enlightenment' is not so different at all from how I understand things to be the explained in the texts. The development of insight is really the occurrence of moments that are a precursor to the moment of enlightenment, in the sense that they are moments when those same factors (or most of them) are present but in a less developed form. Of the 8 path factors there are 5 that occur at all moments of insight, namely the 5 that do not include the 3 'restraint' factors of right speech, right action and right livelihood. Those particular factors arise only when there is a call for the restraint in question, i.e., when there is the potential for akusala in that particular regard, which means that only 1 arises at any time. Thus at moments of mundane insight there will be 5, or sometimes 6, of the 8 path factors arising. At the moment of enlightenment, however, all 8 path factors arise together and perform the function of eradicating the underlying tendencies (anusaya) of their opposites to the appropriate degree. That's as I understand it. Jon 40789 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 0:45am Subject: Re: What the mind does Hi Kel, Thanks for your reply. We still misunderstand each other, but that is a common problem amongst Buddhists. :-) ------------- KH: > > The Dhamma simply teaches us to know the presently arisen reality > regardless of whether it is wonderful or deplorable or just plain > ordinary. > > Kel: That's the goal, but blindly trying to get there isn't going to work. --------------- I don't see it as the goal in the sense of the long term: right understanding is required at this present moment. And, as I said, `trying to get there' (blindly or otherwise) is definitely not a part of the Middle Way. There is no control over dhammas: right understanding will arise only when the conditions for its arising are present. Those conditions are put in place over the course of many lifetimes. The Dhamma has to be heard, correctly explained, wisely considered and applied to the present reality. And this has to happen time and time again before deep insights can occur. ------------ K: > We clear our minds by practicing sila. We sharpen our minds by practicing samadi. ------------- Yes, all kusala cittas are accompanied by a degree of calm and clarity. However, insight can arise in the midst of chaos, so I don't agree that we have to clear our minds in the way you are suggesting. I prefer to think that kusala habits allow us to develop the Four Factors for Enlightenment. Kusala habits lead us to seek out the Dhamma and to associate with good friends. ------------- K: > Only then when you practice insight, you might actually be aware of the reality that has arisen. ------------- Actually, when you practice insight you *are* aware of the reality that has arisen. I think you are suggesting that insight practice is something that leads to insight. In fact, insight *is" the practice, and it leads to enlightenment. --------------- K: > If your sati/samadhi is not strong, even if you have equanimity, it'll still be observing at superficial levels because your mind is still obstructed by moha. --------------- Even here, we seem to disagree. When sati and samadhi are present moha is absent. Or did you mean something else? Ken H 40790 From: seisen_au Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 0:53am Subject: Re: What the mind does, sutta Hi Nina, Thank you for your efforts in helping me understand this sutta. It is much clearer now. The other translation was by Sister Upalavanna from the Metta sight. The sutta is from Anguttara Nikaya, Ekakanipata, Ekadhammapali, Tatiyavaggo, Sutta #13 (or Sutta #320 Book of Ones). I also found the same sutta quoted by Nagasena in the Questions of King Milinda translated by T. W. Rhys Davids. The Blessed One, O king, is free from desire as respects all conditions of future life, and has condemned them all. For it has been said, O king, by the Blessed One: "Just, O Bhikkhus, as a very small quantity of excrement is of evil smell, so do I find no beauty in the very smallest degree of future life, not even in such for the time of the snapping of the fingers." (Milindapa~nhapaa.li, 4 Me.ndakapa~nho, Iddhibaladassanapa~nho) Thank you Steve --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Steve and Kelvin, > Where is this sutta taken from and who translated it? I would like to know > this. It does not fit the Pali. > > I did not follow all of your thread, but here is my attempt. See below. > > op 06-01-2005 14:58 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: > > former translation: 320. Bhikkhus, just as a little bit of excreta smells > and should be > > got rid of, I do not specify thinking even for the fraction of a > > second. 40791 From: jwromeijn Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 1:35am Subject: Re: Apologies and Kathavatthu Dear all, As far as I have understood the discussion theme of the thread "Apologies", it is the question if the 62 wrong views of the Brahmajala Sutta is the complete list of all possible wrong views. Whatever the commentators say about it, I think this is not the case: the list of wrong views, errors, mistakes and other faults is in principle indefinite. An easy example: the statement "Birma is a democracy" is a wrong view, all dsg-participants will agree on that. But I have a other question: how about the Kathavatthu ? That is a book of the Abhidhamma, the only one with a wellknown author: Moggaliputta Tissa, and his work is a production associated with the Council of Patna held under 'Asoka's' patronage about B.C. 246 'Kathavatthu' is mostly tranalated with title Points of 'Controversy'; I have not read it but I understand the content is a list of wrong views (most times called "heterodox statements") My question is: if the list of the Brahmajala Sutta is exhausting, then there was no nedd for the Kathavatthu, Moggaliputta Tissa could simply have said to the council and the heterodox monks: read the Brahmajala Sutta of the Buddha. I also have a personal interest in this topic: more and more the last months I feel like the heterodox people monks on that council, feeling not at ease with the dogmatic dominant culture, which later evolved to mahayana. In fact I want to know: to which of the heterodox views do I belong ? Metta Joop 40792 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:21am Subject: Re: What the mind does Ken, Kel: I think our difference comes down to how we view practice. You see it as just merely living in the moment. I see it as something we have to cultivate and strive toward with a balanced- mind to be even able to see the present moment much less live in it. I think the mind needs training to have continuous sati which leads to samadhi then it's properly conditioned for panna. > `trying to get there' (blindly or otherwise) is definitely not > a part of the Middle Way. There is no control over dhammas: right > understanding will arise only when the conditions for its arising > are present. Kel: Here's another difference. You automatically take striving or adverting to a goal as lobha. This is not so. One has no control over the results and expecting a certain result thus reaction to failure is dukkha. Indriyas are rulers over others/opposites because they precisely have the power to set the right conditions. If one doesn't cultivate them actively and correctly then they'll be too weak or take longer. This is especially true for people who are using viriya as their vehicle. They only assume 3 postures and contiously work 24/7. > Those conditions are put in place over the course of many lifetimes. > The Dhamma has to be heard, correctly explained, wisely considered > and applied to the present reality. And this has to happen time and > time again before deep insights can occur. Kel: Ledi Sayadaw once wrote that the fact we're born into a Buddha's sasana and exposed to dhamma means our kamma are ripened. We only have to seize the moment and work hard. Your view is a bit too close to Pubbekata-hetu view, which was refuted with the following: Monks, indeed, in the minds of those who confidently and solely rely on the volitional actions done by beings in their past existences and hold this view, there cannot arise such mental factors as chanda (desire-to-do) and vayama (effort), as to differentiate between what actions should be done and what actions should be refrained from. "Monks, indeed, in the minds of those who cannot truly and firmly differentiate between what actions should be"done and what actions should be avoided, and live without the application of mindfulness and self-restraint, there cannot arise righteous beliefs that are conducive to the cessation of defilements. > ------------ > K: > We clear our minds by practicing sila. We sharpen > our minds by practicing samadi. > ------------- > > Yes, all kusala cittas are accompanied by a degree of calm and > clarity. However, insight can arise in the midst of chaos, so I > don't agree that we have to clear our minds in the way you are > suggesting. I prefer to think that kusala habits allow us to develop > the Four Factors for Enlightenment. Kusala habits lead us to seek > out the Dhamma and to associate with good friends. Kel: Kusala cittas are as you say but they're not enough. They are there as foundations so one gets an opportunity to garner insight. For enlightenment one needs samadhi that is at least same quality as the first jhana, access concentration. Without kusala habits, one definitely has no hope since that means one's sila isn't strong enough anyway. It is a necessary condition but not a sufficient one. Insight can definitely arise in the midst of chaos but only if the mind is clear to observe it with equanimity. 'Though my body has pain, I will leave my mind unhurt.' Only if one can separate themselves from the experience as I or my pain. The stronger the pain/experience is, the stronger samadhi you need to turn away from it. (Vedanavikkhambhana-the method of turning away from feeling (vedanam vikkhambhetva), the method of neglecting or not caring for vedana (vedanam abboharikam katva). It may be contemplated on any object which has been regularly and skilfully practised by a meditator, not caring for feeling arising at the present moment. Tam vedanam abbhoharikam katva mulakammatthanam sammasanto arahattam eva ganhati- Samyutta-Nikaya-Atthakatha 2.272. Vedana vikkhambhana, Digha-Nikaya-Atthakatha 2.163; Saratthatika 1.28 > ------------- > K: > Only then when you practice > insight, you might actually be aware of the reality that has > arisen. > ------------- > > Actually, when you practice insight you *are* aware of the reality > that has arisen. Kel: Maybe, if the mind is capable of it at that moment. Generally I find sati lags behind the present moment. One only realizes after the thought or mental action has already occured. Samma sati is basically the one that happens at exactly the same moment and/or destroys any future akusala cittas. > I think you are suggesting that insight practice is something that > leads to insight. In fact, insight *is" the practice, and it leads > to enlightenment. Kel: insight practice is what leads to wisdom, yes. But it also needs all factors to be aligned before it can lead to enlightenment. > --------------- > K: > If your sati/samadhi is not strong, even if you have > equanimity, it'll still be observing at superficial levels because > your mind is still obstructed by moha. > --------------- > > Even here, we seem to disagree. When sati and samadhi are present > moha is absent. Or did you mean something else? Kel: I mean strong in a sense of non-continuous or interruptable. If you prefer to think of it in sequence of vithis then it would look something like this. One kusala vithi with sati/samadi is followed several moha akusala vithis. Yet it appears as if sati/samadhi is continous because the mind simply didn't know moha akusala vithis occured (function of moha). Once akusala gain more traction, something really bad will arise. Only then the meditator goes oh that's bad, where did that come from? The fact that one missed the relation and link to cause a strong akusala to arise means sati was definitely not present for numerous vithis. So depending on how continous sat/samadhi are in successive vithis, the deeper one can penetrate and cultivate insight. Basically the sati an average meditator has during normal daily life is really sparse and only detects/destroys the really obvious askuala cittas. - kel 40793 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence, to Chris. Dear Christine, I wrote already about beginners and progress to Tep. I send again. If you like to know more, I try again. Nina. op 06-01-2005 01:28 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m... > > T: Please do write about your experience in the Dhamma and how you > have steadily made progress over the years, including how the > progress is measured. N: Long ago a Thai friend said to Kh Sujin that from the time she studied Dhamma she discovered many faults and vices within herself. This made her discouraged. True, people may think themselves good Buddhists, keeping the precepts mostly, practising dana, not really hurting others. But there is more in the Dhamma. Do they really know themselves, is there any understanding? Lodewijk said that it is not difficult to consider oneself a beginner. One begins to have more understanding of all akusala accumulations, of the latent tendencies which condition one to always make the same mistakes. I find that through study of Abhidhamma and verifying in life what one learnt one finds out about one's hidden motives. Speech and deeds that seemed good and noble before are in reality mixed with moments of conceit. As to insight: it is not difficult to know one is a beginner. This has nothing to do with despisal of oneself and conceit of thinking oneself less, or false modesty. It is just the plain truth. I have confidence in the Path that I follow, eventually I will get to the goal. But I am not thinking of so much progress today or tomorrow. I just know that insight is difficult, but this does not discourage me at all. Lodewijk said: progress of whom? Are we thinking of ? Then we are again self-involved. He finds the question of progress irrelevant. I think that it is best to consider the citta that is thinking of progress. What type of citta is thinking of progress? T: My understanding is that steady Dhamma progress (e.g. two steps up, > only one step down; or, several steps up and only a few steps down) > only comes after we have clearly seen the drawbacks of the five > aggregates. N: We can see the disadvantages of the five khandhas only after knowing precisely what they are, that is, through the development of insight stage by stage. Knowing one nama and one rupa at a time as it appears. Sati and pañña are sobhana (beautiful) dhammas, accompanying sobhana citta. Here the Abhidhamma can prevent us from going into pitfalls. They are just dhammas and do not belong to anyone. T asked: Could you elaborate a little bit on that (what Howard and TG wrote.)? N: I did not keep their posts, but they were explaining to Chris that ups and downs are quite normal. Nina. 40794 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:34am Subject: Visuddhimagga XIV, 129 and Tiika Visuddhimagga XIV, 129 and Tiika THE PERCEPTION AGGREGATE] Intro: Thus far, the Visuddhimagga has explained ruupakkhandha, viññaa.nakkhandha (consciousness), and vedanaakkhandha (feeling). Now the Visuddhimagga explains saññaakkhandha, the khandha of perception. Saññaa can be translated as remembrance, recognition or perception. The Pali term sañjaanati means: to recognize, perceive or know. The term perception is misleading, but we have to remember that saññaa knows in a specific way, it does not know in the same way as citta. As we see in § 130, saññaa Œmarks¹ the object so that it can be recognized later on, or it remembers. As we read in the Tiika to Vis. XIV, 81 with reference to citta <...As to the expression, it has the characteristic of cognizing", this means that it has as its characteristic that kind of knowing called apprehension of an object in a mode in which the objective field is apprehended differently from the mode of perceiving.> N: Consciousness is the principal, the leader, in cognizing the object, and the cognizing of consciousness is different from Œperceiving¹ by saññaa which Œmarks¹ or recognizes the object. In Vis XIV, 3, perception has been compared to a child that sees a coin without discretion, and citta has been compared to a villager who knows more about the characteristics of the coin. Whereas pañña is like a money changer who knows everything, all details, of the coin. Saññaa cetasika accompanies each citta and thus, it is different as it Œmarks¹ and remembers different objects, it can be of different jaatis or classes (kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya) and of different planes of citta, namely of the sensuous plane, of the plane of ruupa-jhaanacitta, of aruupa-jhaanacitta or of lokuttara citta. The object saññaa marks and remembers may be citta, cetasika, ruupa and nibbaana, and also concepts, paññatti. Whatever object citta cognizes, saññaa marks and remembers it. ***** Text Vis. XIV, 129: Now it was said above, 'Whatever has the characteristic of perceiving should be understood, all taken together, as the perception aggregate' (par.81). N: The Tiika states that what was said of the feeling khandha must be applied to saññaa khandha. The cetasika saññaa is a separate khandha just as the cetasika feeling. As to the words Œall taken together¹ (sabba.m ta.m ekato katvaa), we read in the Tiika to Vis. 81: N: The khandhas are classified as past, present, future, and in several other ways. The Tiika to Vis. 81: < "Characteristic of perceiving" means that its characteristic is the perceiving of an object classed as blue, etc., and the knowing, the apprehending of it by arousing the perception of it as blue, yellow, long, short, and so on. > Text Vis: And here too, what is said to have the characteristic of perceiving is perception itself, according as it is said, 'It perceives, friend, that is why it is called perception' (m.i,293). N: Just as in the case of the khandha of consciousness and of feeling, the Vis. refers to M.N. I, 43, which is a dialogue between Maha-Ko.t.thita and Saariputta. Saariputtaa explains: Œit perceives, it perceives, friend, that is why it is called perception.¹ Here what is said by the Tiika about feeling can also be applied to saññaa. The Tiika (to Vis. XIV, 81) states with regard to feeling: The explanation of the action should be understood as follows: there is no doer apart from the dhamma with its own characteristic (Sabhaavadhammato a~n~no kattaa natthiiti dassanattha.m kattuniddeso). We are inclined to take saññaa for self, but there is no doer apart from the dhamma which is saññaa with the characteristic of marking and remembering. Text Vis: But though it is singlefold according to its individual essence as the characteristic of perceiving, it is nevertheless threefold as to kind, that is to say, profitable, unprofitable, and indeterminate. Herein, that associated with profitable consciousness is 'profitable', that associated with unprofitable consciousness is 'unprofitable', and that associated with indeterminate consciousness is 'indeterminate'. Since there is no consciousness dissociated from perception, perception therefore has the same number of divisions as consciousness [that is to say, eighty-nine]. N: The Tiika emphasizes that there is no citta that is dissociated from saññaa. Saññaa marks the object that is cognized by citta so that it can be recognized. Since it accompanies all eightynine cittas, it is different in each case. As the Vis. states: it can be kusala, akusala or indeterminate, including vipaaka and kiriya. When samatha is developed, saññaa marks and remembers the meditation subject of samatha. When one listens to the Dhamma saññaa assists the kusala citta that arises at that moment. Firm remembrance of the Dhamma that is heard is the proximate cause of sati of satipa.t.thaana which is mindful of naama and ruupa. ***** Nina. 40795 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Compassion .. Idiot Compassion .. Conspicuous Compassion Dear Christine and rob K, op 09-01-2005 04:30 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: Once the Buddha was addressing the monks during the Patimokkha and > he observed that one of the monks was full of evil wishes. He > stopped the recitation and asked the monk to leave. But the monk > stayed where he was, until Moggallana forcefully took hold of his > arm and removed him from the assembly. All done with compassion. N: Yes, we have to consider what the Buddha said when monks were harming each other. He would also speak sternly. Read the Vinaya. He would say: you foolish monk... Nina. 40796 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Hi Mike, op 08-01-2005 23:50 schreef m. nease op mlnease@z...: > (at least not directly--if I'm not mistaken pa.n.natti can function > as upanisaya paccaya). N: Natural strong dependence condition, such as climate or friends. Thus not as objects of insight. M: So I don't think it matters whether we call them 'ultimate realities' or > not, but it does absolutely matter whether we know the difference. It's > awfully easy to go through life taking conventional insight (into concepts > or pa.n.natti by any other name) for vipassanaa, a terrible trap. I still > do it every day, after some thirty years or so of Dhamma (and dhamma) study, > however feeble. I've flip-flopped on this a few times but for now, because > of the importance of this distinction, I'm inclined to accept 'realities', > though somewhat reluctantly (because of the continual 'reification/ontology' > confusion). N: It may be useful for others if you tell us about your flipflopping before. Of course we accept realities reluctantly, so long as insight has not been developed. Only then there is no more doubt about them. Nina. 40797 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Hi Dave, op 08-01-2005 17:11 schreef David Cosentino op dharmabum253@y...: > > What do you mean by "for > someone > who has not developed jhana, lokuttara citta is > accompanied by samadhi > that > has the strength of the concentration of the first > jhana." N: Not everyone can attain jhana. People can develop vipassana and attain enlightenment without having developed jhana; they are called dry insight workers, sukkha vipassaka. See Human Types, puggala paññatti, of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. When they attain enlightenment, the lokuttara citta is accompanied by samadhi which has become strong. As insight develops, also concentration and calm develop by conditions. You do not have to try to be concentrated. D: And what do you mean by nibbana being an object? N: Nibbana is the object of lokuttara citta. Lokuttara citta is accompanied by lokuttara paññaa and also, by conditions, by samadhi which is lokuttara and of a high degree. It has the degree of the first jhana, but the object is not a meditation subject of samatha; instead, the object is nibbana. Nina. 40798 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (222) Daer Htoo, thank you, that is very clear. Nina. op 09-01-2005 04:22 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: >> Tadarammana cittas or retention consciousness or retaining > consciousness are performed by 3 santirana cittas and 8 mahavipaka > cittas. While all 8 mahavipaka cittas are kusala-vipaka cittas not > all santirana cittas or investigating consciousness are kusala-vipaka > cittas. 40799 From: Matthew Miller Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 4:59am Subject: Re: pasada rupas Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Balance has to do with medical science. A different field. Helpful > for curing diseases, but not serving detachment from nama and rupa. Thanks for your reply, Nina. However, I'm still not very convinced. Balance is a sense, like hearing, seeing, tasting and so on. Depending on how you approach these senses, they ALL belong to medical science, or they ALL belong to vipassana (e.g. we can observe their arising, see how they are all anicca, anatta and, through clinging, dukkha). For example, imagine someone who is being mindful. While standing up mindfully, she suddenly feels dizziness. She notes "dizziness, dizziness" but rather than panicking and clinging to the dizziness (perhaps with a medical story like "I'm having a stroke!"), she watches how it passes, noting "balance, balance" as her sense of balance returns. Perhaps at the same time she notes that her vision blacks out. She notes this as well, and notes as the seeing returns ("seeing, seeing"). How is balance here different from hearing, seeing and tasting or any other pasada rupa? Matthew 40800 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 0:31am Subject: Re: Is there seeing now? (Re: [dsg] Re: kusala and akusala. Hi, Jon (and James) - In a message dated 1/9/05 3:42:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, jsabbott@n... writes: > Thanks for the promotion to beyond the 'beginner' ranks ;-)) However, > I'm sticking with my present diagnosis of weak and undeveloped insight. > I suppose it all depends on what you mean by 'insight'. To my > understanding it's something that arises of its own accord, without any > 'practising' for it. > ====================== I know this topic is getting old. However ... ;-) What about bhavana, Jon? Cultivation? Is there no Buddhist practice at all according to the Buddha? What about those suttas we talked about a long time ago pertaining to spiral development? (In that regard, please look at the entirety of message # 14360.) Was there no cultivation involved in that? What about attending to the kusala and akusala mindstates that arise, supporting the former and opposing the latter that the Buddha put forward as right effort - the "sense control" that the Buddha mentions? Did the Buddha develop ten paramitas over the course of aeons randomly, with no conventional action take on his part, no practice, no cultivation? Did he become the Buddha by good luck?? Is there no conventional Buddhist practice urged by the Buddha at all? If I truly believed not, then I would go elsewhere, because the Dhamma would just become a nice story/theory to be debated on the internet, AFAIC ("as far as I'm concerned")! With metta, Howard P.S. Describing insight as "something that arises of its own accord" is surely not what you literally mean, for that is a self-causation view, and contrary to the Dhamma. I suppose what you mean is that insight arises without cetana as a condition. But does it, Jon? Is insight not a kammic consequence? /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40801 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 0:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Hi, Matthew (and Nina) - In a message dated 1/9/05 8:00:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, bupleurum@y... writes: > > Nina van Gorkom wrote: > >Balance has to do with medical science. A different field. Helpful > >for curing diseases, but not serving detachment from nama and rupa. > > Thanks for your reply, Nina. However, I'm still not very convinced. > Balance is a sense, like hearing, seeing, tasting and so on. > Depending on how you approach these senses, they ALL belong to > medical science, or they ALL belong to vipassana (e.g. we can observe > their arising, see how they are all anicca, anatta and, through > clinging, dukkha). > > For example, imagine someone who is being mindful. While standing up > mindfully, she suddenly feels dizziness. She notes "dizziness, > dizziness" but rather than panicking and clinging to the dizziness > (perhaps with a medical story like "I'm having a stroke!"), she > watches how it passes, noting "balance, balance" as her sense of > balance returns. Perhaps at the same time she notes that her vision > blacks out. She notes this as well, and notes as the seeing returns > ("seeing, seeing"). > > How is balance here different from hearing, seeing and tasting or any > other pasada rupa? > > Matthew > > ======================== Would not sense of balance and imbalance fall under body sense? (As do all bodily sensations, from pains, to itches, to nausea, to tingling, to sensations for which we have no names.) With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40802 From: Matthew Miller Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 7:55am Subject: Re: pasada rupas > Would not sense of balance and imbalance fall under body sense? >(As do all bodily sensations, from pains, to itches, to nausea, to > tingling, to sensations for which we have no names.) > It could be argued that ALL of the senses fall under "body sense." Hearing, for example, is really a form of touch (sensation of pressure). Odor and flavor have pretty much the same objects and there's quite a bit of overlap between them. Many flavors are recognized mainly through the sense of smell. If you hold your nose while eating chocolate, for example, you will have trouble identifying the chocolate flavor, even though you can distinguish the food's sweetness or bitterness. Try it yourself. This is because the familiar flavor of chocolate is sensed largely by odor. This is true for the flavor of coffee as well. The abhidhamma scheme is one way of cutting up the "pie" of experience. But whatever value abhidhamma has as a heuristic device for vipassana, as a philosophy it is quite sloppy and mired in dualism (mental/physical, etc). Indeed, it is not difficult to deconstruct the paramattha/samutti duality (that is, to show that so-called "ultimate" realities are in fact "conventional"). Matthew 40803 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 9:25am Subject: Re: pasada rupas Hi Howard and Matthew, I agree with Howard that balance is covered under body sense, plus we could add the rupa "wieldiness" (kamma~n~nataa). "Wieldiness has the characteristic of wieldiness that is favorable to bodily action", CMA. It would be hard to see balance as a sense door with an object and the occasion of contact. It is true that all 5 sense doors rely on touch to make contact but what is touched is different in each case and is suited to a particular kind of object. Matthew wrote: "Indeed, it is not difficult to deconstruct the paramattha/samutti duality (that is, to show that so- called "ultimate" realities are in fact "conventional")." I think it is very difficult. Otherwise we would all be arahants. Larry 40804 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 4:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Hi, Matthew - In a message dated 1/9/05 10:55:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, bupleurum@y... writes: > > >Would not sense of balance and imbalance fall under body sense? > >(As do all bodily sensations, from pains, to itches, to nausea, to > >tingling, to sensations for which we have no names.) > > > > It could be argued that ALL of the senses fall under "body sense." > ----------------------------------------- Howard: It *could* be so argued, but that is not the Buddhist categorization. (And for good reason, I think, as I will indicate shortly.) --------------------------------------- > Hearing, for example, is really a form of touch (sensation of > pressure). > --------------------------------------- Howard: No, it is not - not in terms of experience, and that is what the Dhamma concerns itself with. Speaking conventionally: A powerful noise will cause extreme pressure on the ears. There will be two different sorts of sensation: pain (bodily sensation) and heard sound (auditory sensation). There is a perceptable difference in *kind* among the sensations coming through the various sense doors. Bodily sensations, sights, sounds, tastes, odors, and mind objects do not have the same "feel" or "taste" or "flavor" as one another. --------------------------------------- Odor and flavor have pretty much the same objects and> > there's quite a bit of overlap between them. Many flavors are > recognized mainly through the sense of smell. If you hold your nose > while eating chocolate, for example, you will have trouble > identifying the chocolate flavor, even though you can distinguish the > food's sweetness or bitterness. Try it yourself. This is because the > familiar flavor of chocolate is sensed largely by odor. This is true > for the flavor of coffee as well. > --------------------------------------- Howard: I believe that odor is one object and flavor another. When there is tasting there is only tasting, and when there is smelling there is only smelling. I think that the "taste" of an orange is a mental construct fabricated from moments of tasting sweet and sour flavor and smelling various odors. I believe that taste is a construct. Moreover, it seems to be highlighted in our perception more than the elementary flavors and odors from which it is constructed, and that are the primary conditions engendering it. I suspect that with heightened concentration and mindfulness, these all could be separated out. I agree that our mental processing combines the data of various sense doors. That is mind-door processing; it is sankharic processing. In particular, that is how our "world of concept" is created. -------------------------------------------- > > The abhidhamma scheme is one way of cutting up the "pie" of > experience. But whatever value abhidhamma has as a heuristic device > for vipassana, as a philosophy it is quite sloppy and mired in > dualism (mental/physical, etc). Indeed, it is not difficult to > deconstruct the paramattha/samutti duality (that is, to show that > so-called "ultimate" realities are in fact "conventional"). > ----------------------------------- Howard: So, do you think that visual objects, or sights, are a matter of convention? When we open our eyes and look, is the sight a matter of convention? (I don't mean how we then cognize it by means of cutting it up into regions and conventional objects. I mean just the very brief, unembellished sight.) BTW, I shouldn't really be the person "defending" Abhidhamma. I, myself, have a few "problems" with it. More importantly, I know very little of it. I would welcome other, more knowledgeable, folks joining in on this conversation. ------------------------------------- > > Matthew > =================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40805 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 10:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > > > > > 2) Calling things non-realities or realities, tends to see the non- > realities > > as empty (which is fine) and realities as substantial (which is > not fine). > > > > ========== > Dear TG, > This problem might be because of not understanding the pali well. > In the foreword to Realities and Concepts (Sujin Boriharnwanaket) it > says: > > "The Pali terms promote clarity.., they are used because the English > words are too approximate and have varying connotations. Reality, > for instance, is the usual English translation of dhamma. It can also > be translated as thing or phenomenon. Yet these English terms may > imply something substantial whereas dhammas are fundamentally > evanescent" > RobertK Hi TG and Robert, Another tack might be to say what is meant by saying concepts are nonexistent or not real is that concepts are not true. Take the concept of a reality, an object of satipatthana. Concept is name and meaning. The meaning is the reality in this case, so the meaning is real. The name is an intimation, either verbal or bodily. [I consider mental intimations, aka thoughts, as memories of these intimations.] As such the name is also real. What is not real or false is the equation "this equals that". The sensation of hardness is not a name (intimation). On the level of panna we could say there is no general "sensation of hardness", only a very specific sensation of hardness that doesn't even have a specific name, is immediately gone, and, as sensation, is an illusion-like emptiness because of being of the "stuff" of consciousness while rupa is without any mental qualities at all. However, this equation is part of every moment of consciousness, even lokuttara, because it is sanna's equation, part of how we recognize and make sense out of experience. Without it experience would be a meaningless blur. But it is ultimately not true. Because of being not true we could say this equation of conceptuality is a primary source of suffering in that it provides the basic material for beliefs in permanence, desirableness, and self. Larry 40806 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Hi, Larry (and TG & Robert) - In a message dated 1/9/05 1:28:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi TG and Robert, > > Another tack might be to say what is meant by saying concepts are > nonexistent or not real is that concepts are not true. Take the > concept of a reality, an object of satipatthana. Concept is name and > meaning. The meaning is the reality in this case, so the meaning is > real. The name is an intimation, either verbal or bodily. [I consider > mental intimations, aka thoughts, as memories of these intimations.] > As such the name is also real. What is not real or false is the > equation "this equals that". The sensation of hardness is not a name > (intimation). > > On the level of panna we could say there is no general "sensation of > hardness", only a very specific sensation of hardness that doesn't > even have a specific name, is immediately gone, and, as sensation, is > an illusion-like emptiness because of being of the "stuff" of > consciousness while rupa is without any mental qualities at all. > > However, this equation is part of every moment of consciousness, even > lokuttara, because it is sanna's equation, part of how we recognize > and make sense out of experience. Without it experience would be a > meaningless blur. But it is ultimately not true. Because of being not > true we could say this equation of conceptuality is a primary source > of suffering in that it provides the basic material for beliefs in > permanence, desirableness, and self. > > Larry > > ======================= That's a good analysis for concepts that reference actual existence, such as hardness. But it isn't sufficient fo concepts of such things as cars, tables, and trees. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40807 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 5:39am Subject: TYPO Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Hi again - In a message dated 1/9/05 1:36:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > That's a good analysis for concepts that reference actual existence, > such as hardness. ==================== I meant "existents", not "existence". Sorry. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40808 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 10:52am Subject: Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 129 and Tiika Nina: "Saññaa marks the object that is cognized by citta so that it can be recognized." Hi Nina, Can you say more about this mark. Is it a sign (nimitta)? Also, what about the object? It seems that often the object of sanna is a complex experience. Maybe the deer is afraid of the scarecrow because the farmer threw a stick at the deer. How much of this reasoning is the work of sanna? Larry 40809 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 10:55am Subject: Rob M. Has anyone heard from Rob M? I hope he didn't get swept away in the tsunami. Larry 40810 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 11:05am Subject: Re: Concepts and Questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Tep's Comment: > > I think you are talking about the same thing, although the individual > points may sound different. > > It is my understanding that pannatti is the conventional truth > (vohara-sacca), that is not paramattha (realities in the highest > sense). Concepts are a part of pannatti; they are useful as a vehicle > (a "raft") for crossing over the river of samsara, and what we have > as the result of Dhamma learning (crossing over the samsara) is the > penetration of the paramattha dhamma. Once the Dhamma is learnt, we > don't need any concepts or pannatti and there are no thoughts (mental > formations, sankhara) in the Arahat. > > Warm regards, > > Tep > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Tep, Howard, TG, Herman and All, > > Regarding truth, there are conventional truth or 'samuti sacca' and > ultimate truth or 'paramattha sacca'. > > Samuti sacca or conventional truths are not always true. For > example 'water boils at 100 degrees Centigrade'. Even though it is > true most of the time, this statement is not always true. > > But unlike 'samuti sacca' or conventional truth, 'paramattha sacca' > or ultimate truths are always true and they are ultimate realities. > > > Culapanthaka just rubbed and said what he was instructed. Even though > he was rubbing and saying he was still weeping in despair. But when > he saw changes in the rubbing cloth he was out of pannatti and with > this recognition of change (anicca) he was rocketed up till arahatta > magga nana. > > Why did The Buddha instructed him to rub that cloth/rag? > > Concepts may be pannatti. By why The Buddha instructed in such a > particular way is because of pannindriya cetasikas. Panna is not > pannatti. > ------------------------------------------ Dear Htoo - Thank you very much for the clear explanation for the terms pannatti (sadda-pannatti and attha-pannatti), and samuti sacca(conventional truth that may not always be true) vesus paramattha (truths that are always true). So, vohara-sacca is in the class of samuti sacca. Is my understanding correct? I particularly like the following example you have given: --------------------------------------------------- > > But when we investigate 'where is water' 'what is water', we cannot > find any water at all. This means that there is no 'water' in reality > or as ultimate truth. > > 1. We see what we call water. But this is just seeing and seeing > consciousness. > > 2. When we drink water we taste it. It is taste but not water. > > 3. When we touch water, we are not touching water but coldness- warmth > or force of water when it is moving like tsunami or consistency of it > which we can sense through striking it with our palms or when we swim > under water while body is moving the hardness-softness or consistency > is felt through the body. > > But there is no water at all. > ------------------------------------ Warm regards, Tep ========= 40811 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 11:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Hi Htoo, Nina and Tep, > > Htoo, since you asked for comments, this seems to me maybe to fall > under sa.nkhaarakha.nda--of course for the arahat, not > uppaadanakha.nda. > > mike > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Dear Mike, > > Thank you very much for your kind input. It makes sense that you > said 'this seems to me maybe to fall under sankhaara.kkhandhaa or > arahat.' > > Yes, it may well be. > > Example is viriya cetasika. It is a part of sankhara.kkhandha. > > When we smile we need viriya. When we speak viriya. When we meditate > we need viriya. Speaking fast is pushed by viriya. I think habit > reside in sankhara.kkhandha. Because cetana is already pure in > arahattas. > > Thanks for your thought. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing Hi Htoo, Mike and Nina - I do not follow the suggestion that habits (vasana) "reside" in sankhara khandha. Because 'avijja paccaya sankhara' as stated by the Dependent Origination, and avijja no longer "resides" in the Arahat, so how come vasana still does? I think habit is probably a part of the sanna khandha. What do you think? Kindest regards, Tep ============= 40812 From: Larry Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 11:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Howard: "That's a good analysis for concepts that reference actual existence, such as hardness. But it isn't sufficient for concepts of such things as cars, tables, and trees." Hi Howard, For cars, tables, and trees we are talking about a name that encompasses many realities. The falsity of the equation still holds; the name car does not equal the many rupas that that name is supposed to represent. I think the sense of permanence has as much to do with memory as concept and belief manipulates these concepts into what we want. More abstract concepts such as mathematics or philosophy are harder to sort out but I think ultimately there is a reality in the meaning though the belief may be false. Take a purple elephant. The name "elephant" encompasses many realities and purple is a reality but the belief "all elephants are purple" is clearly false on many levels. Thinking about these things isn't satipatthana and could possibly be categorized as manipulating beliefs which is a more complex order of concept where the meaning is also a name; plus attachment is the underlying motif belief. Larry 40813 From: nina Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 0:15pm Subject: Pilgrimage India, I a. Pilgrimage in India, October/November 2004. Lessons in Detachment. Chapter 1. The Holy Places. ³Abandon evil, O monks! One can abandon evil, O monks!If it were impossible to abandon evil, I would not ask you to do so. But as it can be done, therefore I say ŒAbandon evil!¹ If this abandoning of evil would bring harm and suffering, I would not ask you to abandon it. But as the abandoning of evil brings weal and happiness, therefore I say, Œabandon evil!¹ Cultivate the good, O monks! One can cultivate what is good, O monks. If it were impossible to cultivate the good, I would not ask you to do so. But as it can be done, therefore I say, ŒCultivate the good!¹ If this cultivation of the good would bring harm and suffering, I would not ask you to cultivate it. But as the cultivation of the good brings weal and happiness, therefore I say, ŒCultivate the good!¹ ² (Gradual Sayings Book of the twos, II, 9, translated by Ven. Nyanaponika, Wheel 155-158.) These compassionate words of the Buddha show that also in his lifetime people must have struggled with the depth and complexity of his teachings and had to be encouraged on the right path. How much more so in our days! During one of our long and strenuous bus rides through India Lodewijk recited this sutta to our friends. Lodewijk and I started our pilgrimage in New Delhi where we visited Kuru, the place where the Buddha preached the Satipatthåna Sutta. We climbed up to the rocks to look at the stone with Ashoka's inscription. Here I read aloud to Lodewijk the Satipatthåna Sutta. Before, this place was a heap of dirt and public toilet, but our friend S.K. Singh, former secretary of foreign affairs, had it restored and fenced in. Trees were planted and now it has become a peaceful place where one can reflect on the Satipatthåna Sutta. **** Nina. 40814 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 0:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Hi Metthew, Balance and the stroke etc. you describe seems to be a whole story we can think of. Not a dhamma that can be directly experienced as only a rupa, without thinking. Insight is not thinking. Saying: balance, balance, of even saying: seeing, seeing, this is not the development of direct understanding of dhammas with the purpose of penetrating their true characteristics. Insight is not watching either, nor noting. There is still an idea of self thinking here. It does not help, as I see it. Nina. op 09-01-2005 13:59 schreef Matthew Miller op bupleurum@y...: > she > watches how it passes, noting "balance, balance" as her sense of > balance returns. Perhaps at the same time she notes that her vision > blacks out. She notes this as well, and notes as the seeing returns > ("seeing, seeing"). > > How is balance here different from hearing, seeing and tasting or any > other pasada rupa? 40815 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 0:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Hi Howard, Bodysense itself is all over the body, it is the bodydoor through which can be experienced: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion, pressure. Nothing more than that. We can think of balance, nausea, etc. but what are they? That is the question. They are situations, stories, not dhammas with characteristics that can be directly experienced. Howard, your remark about having difficulty to understand the rupas nutrition and life faculty made me reflect a little more. I do not know whether you find this meaningful. When we compare a corpse and a living body there is something in a living body not found in a corpse. That is life faculty. Life faculty is together with the rupas of the body that are produced by kamma. Thus, together with eyesense, etc. The senses are produced by kamma, so that we can receive vipaka, such as seeing, hearing, which are results of kamma. A corpse is like a log of wood. No life faculty. Nutritive essence is like a lifesap that permeates the whole body when one has eaten food. A corpse does not have this. It is only in a living body. Ledi Sayadaw uses some similes (on p. 16), under rupas. Jivita rupa keeps the rupas produced by kamma fresh, just as the water in a pond preserves the lotus therein and prevents it from decay. Nutrition is so also nutrition supports the other rupas. Then there are the rupas lightness, pliancy and adaptability, that condition suppleness. These originate from temperature, nutrition and citta. They are only in a living body, not in a corpse. Just a few thoughts, Nina. op 09-01-2005 14:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ====================== > Would not sense of balance and imbalance fall under body sense? (As do > all bodily sensations, from pains, to itches, to nausea, to tingling, to > sensations for which we have no names.) 40816 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 0:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Hi Howard, No Howard, you answered very well about the different senses. You formulated it well. Nina. op 09-01-2005 18:36 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > BTW, I shouldn't really be the person "defending" Abhidhamma. I, > myself, have a few "problems" with it. More importantly, I know very little of > it. > I would welcome other, more knowledgeable, folks joining in on this > conversation. 40817 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 1:26pm Subject: Re: Apologies Friend Kelvin, Thanks for explaining what you meant with your previous post. Well, I really don't have much to say. The question is if ascetics and Brahmins means `anyone', and apparently it doesn't. Thanks for the post. Metta, James 40818 From: David Cosentino Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 7:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Nina- Just a couple more questions... How does one attain samadhi without developing the jhanas? How can one take nibbana as an object if one has never experienced it and if it is not an object? The Buddha described nibbana as uncompounded, unborn, etc. If something is uncompounded, it has no parts, if it has no parts it is not an object. I'm not trying to be saucy, just trying to understand your viewpoint. Thanks for your help! --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > N: Not everyone can attain jhana. People can develop > vipassana and attain > enlightenment without having developed jhana; they > are called dry insight > workers, sukkha vipassaka. See Human Types, puggala > paññatti, of the > Abhidhamma Pitaka. > When they attain enlightenment, the lokuttara citta > is accompanied by > samadhi which has become strong. As insight > develops, also concentration and > calm develop by conditions. You do not have to try > to be concentrated. > D: And what do you mean by nibbana being an object? > N: Nibbana is the object of lokuttara citta. > Lokuttara citta is accompanied > by lokuttara paññaa and also, by conditions, by > samadhi which is lokuttara > and of a high degree. It has the degree of the first > jhana, but the object > is not a meditation subject of samatha; instead, the > object is nibbana. > Nina. 40819 From: connieparker Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 1:48pm Subject: Re: patience, courage and good cheer Hi, All, Thank you for the added thoughts on the last snippets, Nina. The following are some that I thought might interest someone I'd been talking with about death. *** S: Before becoming Khun Nina, what was there? N: Another life. S: Yeah. From the day you were born and then you had everything from childhood up to now, if it's time to lose, it's exactly the same like from before when you were not born as Khun Nina, so you did not lose anything at all. It is vipaka citta and cetasika that are reborn/conditioned. When we're thinking, it's not the dying consciousness. Everything goes away, all the time. My worry is only nama. *** Last I looked, the mp3's were still at: www.dhammastudygroup.org peace, connie 40820 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:35pm Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence/Tep and Nina --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Christine Forsyth" wrote: > > Dear Tep and Nina, > > Tep, thank you for your mention of samadhi nimitta which prompted > Nina to mention some suttas in the Book of Tens and the Samyutta > Nikaya. There are different forms of meditation - not all done while > sitting with breath as the object. > Nina - you mention writing something on Beginners and Progress. I > would very much like to see you do this, and would find it > beneficial. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" > wrote: > > > > Hi Chris - > > > > Before starting to write this mail, I read your message twice. A > question > > came to my mind about what conditions (paccaya) we must keep > > throughout each day such that "great interest, strong enthusiam, > > confidence, contentment in the practice" can be maintained. > > > > Then I recalled a sutta I had read long ago. It says that the monk > can > > be steady in the progress toward Nibbana when he keeps a "samadhi > > nimitta" in the morning, in the evening, and at night. I am not > sure what it > > may mean to most people who don't do meditation. > > > > > > Warmest regards, > > > > > > Tep > > > > ======== Dear Chris - Nina's clear comprehension of the Dhamma and her prompt reply to the mails on various topics of discussion here are amazing! Yes, it is very good that she has explained about the different types of meditation and recently about "jhanas" as well. I have found all this very helpful too. Warm regards, Tep ============ 40821 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 9:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/9/05 2:27:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "That's a good analysis for concepts that reference actual > existence, such as hardness. But it isn't sufficient for concepts of > such things as cars, tables, and trees." > > Hi Howard, > > For cars, tables, and trees we are talking about a name that > encompasses many realities. The falsity of the equation still holds; > the name car does not equal the many rupas that that name is supposed > to represent. I think the sense of permanence has as much to do with > memory as concept and belief manipulates these concepts into what we > want. More abstract concepts such as mathematics or philosophy are > harder to sort out but I think ultimately there is a reality in the > meaning though the belief may be false. Take a purple elephant. The > name "elephant" encompasses many realities and purple is a reality > but the belief "all elephants are purple" is clearly false on many > levels. Thinking about these things isn't satipatthana and could > possibly be categorized as manipulating beliefs which is a more > complex order of concept where the meaning is also a name; plus > attachment is the underlying motif belief. > > Larry > > ====================== What I meant was that, indeed, a mental or verbal identification of a hardness is not the hardness experienced, but that hardness exists. On the other hand, a mental or verbal identification of a tree is not only not "the experienced tree", but, in fact, there really isn't an experienced tree. That is the difference. In your terms, the meaning of "a tree" is not real, whereas the meaning of a hardness is. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40822 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas David, Kel: Let me add to this discussion by offering some definitions which might help clear up some points or not. :) > How does one attain samadhi without developing the > jhanas? Kel: Jhanic concentration can be separated into: access and absorption. They have the same characteristics, cetasikas. Absorption is what allows one to stay immersed because the mind is completely steady on a particular object, hence results in a really really long vithi. Access concentration is what gives you entry to absorption state, hence the name. So one could develop samadhi that is the level of jhana and keep it at access without going into absorption. Proponents of satipatthana method put forth momentary concentration as equivalent in quality to access concentration. The big difference is in momentary concentration the object does and necessarily changes from one moment to the next. However, the mind is like a shadow to the changing object and move together without any gaps. Instead of practicing in distinct steps, one cultivate samadhi and panna together. By definition in Abhidhamma, magga citta has to be at least first jhana quality. Momentary concentration argument says it is the same quality, just the treatment of the object is different compared to samantha or jhanic based method. > How can one take nibbana as an object if one has never > experienced it and if it is not an object? The Buddha > described nibbana as uncompounded, unborn, etc. If > something is uncompounded, it has no parts, if it has > no parts it is not an object. I'm not trying to be > saucy, just trying to understand your viewpoint. Kel: This is always a tricky point. Nibbana is a real object or else our mind can't advert to it. It is just not of the mundane world hence it's not conditioned like phenomena are. Magga/Phala cittas have nibbana as the object when they occur. Only the first time one experiences nibbana is called magga and subsequent times are called phala, they're basically the same. If you look at the enlightenment vithi, there's a preceding citta that is in-between mundane and supramundane. It is said to act as a bridge for one's liberation and discovers nibbana. So in a sense, nibbana is always there. Once our minds are pure enough, we'll find nibbana and it's not like the mind caused it to arise. - kel 40823 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/9/05 3:17:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > Hi Howard, > Bodysense itself is all over the body, it is the bodydoor through which can > be experienced: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion, pressure. Nothing > more than that. > ----------------------------------- Howard: Yes, those are the loci for bodysense. ------------------------------------ We can think of balance, nausea, etc. but what are they?> > That is the question. They are situations, stories, not dhammas with > characteristics that can be directly experienced. ----------------------------------- Howard: Imbalance, dizziness, and nausea are all bodily sensations. Each is a rupa or sequence of body-door rupas. They aren't just stories. They vcan be and are directly experienced. ---------------------------------- > Howard, your remark about having difficulty to understand the rupas > nutrition and life faculty made me reflect a little more. I do not know > whether you find this meaningful. > When we compare a corpse and a living body there is something in a living > body not found in a corpse. That is life faculty. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: Not as far as I'm concerned. There are many things missing in a corpse, most especially functioning of various sorts. There is no blood circulation, no breathing, no heart beat, no brain function, no renewing of heat, no replacement of tissue, etc Life faculty, as far as I know, is not something to be found even in a living body. ---------------------------------------- Life faculty is together> > with the rupas of the body that are produced by kamma. ---------------------------------------- Howard: I understand that you believe that, Nina. But I have no idea why. -------------------------------------- Thus, together with> > eyesense, etc. The senses are produced by kamma, so that we can receive > vipaka, such as seeing, hearing, which are results of kamma. A corpse is > like a log of wood. No life faculty. > Nutritive essence is like a lifesap that permeates the whole body when one > has eaten food. A corpse does not have this. It is only in a living body.> > ----------------------------------- Howard: As far as I know, neither do I. ------------------------------------ Ledi Sayadaw uses some similes (on p. 16), under rupas. Jivita rupa keeps> > the rupas produced by kamma fresh, just as the water in a pond preserves the > lotus therein and prevents it from decay. Nutrition is water that resides in the earth or falls from the sky, nourishes trees or > plants or mainly promotes their growth or helps them to fecundate, develop > and last long> so also nutrition supports the other rupas. > Then there are the rupas lightness, pliancy and adaptability, that condition > suppleness. These originate from temperature, nutrition and citta. They are > only in a living body, not in a corpse. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: It seems to me that all this business is just primitive biology. (Sorry) ------------------------------------------ > Just a few thoughts, > Nina. > op 09-01-2005 14:54 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >====================== > >Would not sense of balance and imbalance fall under body sense? (As do > >all bodily sensations, from pains, to itches, to nausea, to tingling, to > >sensations for which we have no names.) > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40824 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/9/05 3:28:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > > Hi Howard, > No Howard, you answered very well about the different senses. You formulated > it well. > Nina. > ======================= Thank you for the kind words, Nina. Unfortunately you will be less pleased with what I have to say in my just-sent reply to your post involving balance, nausea, life force and nutriment! Ah, well, I can't win them all!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40825 From: Matthew Miller Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 3:43pm Subject: Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Nina van Gorkom wrote: > When we compare a corpse and a living body there is > something in a living body not found in a corpse. That > is life faculty. Life faculty is together with the rupas > of the body that are produced by kamma. Thus, together with > eyesense, etc. The senses are produced by kamma, so that > we can receive vipaka, such as seeing, hearing, which > are results of kamma. A corpse is > like a log of wood. No life faculty. I'm in agreement with Howard here (I think). If I "compare" myself to a corpse, this is not a direct experience, it is a "story" or "situation" -- samutti. Furthermore, I have no idea what a corpse experiences. I assume that it lacks experiences that I have, but this is just speculation. I don't really know what it feels like to be a corpse. > Nutritive essence is like a lifesap that permeates the whole body > when one has eaten food. A corpse does not have this. It is only in > a living body... Nutrition is like the element of > water that resides in the earth or falls from the sky, nourishes > trees or plants or mainly promotes their growth or helps them to > fecundate, develop and last long so also nutrition supports the > other rupas. Again, I agree with Howard. Aren't we just talking about ideas ("stories") from physics here? Albeit this is the physics of India circa 500 B.C., when most people saw the human body in terms of "elements" like fire, earth, air, and water (or, in the Chinese scheme, Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water). This all seems conventional (samutti) to me. btw, these are good examples of some of the more easily deconstructible paramattha/samutti dualities. Matthew 40826 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 4:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Howard: "What I meant was that, indeed, a mental or verbal identification of a hardness is not the hardness experienced, but that hardness exists. On the other hand, a mental or verbal identification of a tree is not only not "the experienced tree", but, in fact, there really isn't an experienced tree. That is the difference. In your terms, the meaning of "a tree" is not real, whereas the meaning of a hardness is." Hi Howard, What I meant is that all meanings are real. The meaning of "person" is the 5 khandhas, the meaning of "tree" is all the various rupas that go into making a tree. Even fanciful words like "permanent", "self", or "generality", have real meanings. Where we get in trouble is in the beliefs we construct out of them. If words didn't have real meanings they wouldn't make sense. To make sense means to make real by pointing to realities. Larry 40827 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 4:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Hi Dave, > op 08-01-2005 17:11 schreef David Cosentino op dharmabum253@y...: > > > > What do you mean by "for > > someone > > who has not developed jhana, lokuttara citta is > > accompanied by samadhi > > that > > has the strength of the concentration of the first > > jhana." > N: Not everyone can attain jhana. People can develop vipassana and attain > enlightenment without having developed jhana; they are called dry insight > workers, sukkha vipassaka. See Human Types, puggala paññatti, of the > Abhidhamma Pitaka. > When they attain enlightenment, the lokuttara citta is accompanied by > samadhi which has become strong. As insight develops, also concentration and > calm develop by conditions. You do not have to try to be concentrated. > D: And what do you mean by nibbana being an object? > N: Nibbana is the object of lokuttara citta. Lokuttara citta is accompanied > by lokuttara paññaa and also, by conditions, by samadhi which is lokuttara > and of a high degree. It has the degree of the first jhana, but the object > is not a meditation subject of samatha; instead, the object is nibbana. > Nina. ----------------------------------- Dear Nina (and David) - Please allow me to ask a number of questions, although you have been already very busy answering several questions form the Forum. In your message #40797 (as shown above) you mentioned that "dry insight" workers (sukkha vipassaka) could attain "enlightenment" without a jhana as a requisite. In the previous posts you kindly explained that samadhi could be developed without samatha-bhavana (e.g. through Buddhanussati). N: When they (the dry insighters) attain enlightenment, the lokuttara citta is accompanied by samadhi which has become strong. Lokuttara citta is accompanied by lokuttara panna and also, by conditions, by samadhi which is lokuttara and of a high degree. It has the degree of the first jhana, but the object is not a meditation subject of samatha; instead, the object is nibbana. T: Is mind with "enlightenment" the same as an arisen lokuttara citta that takes Nibbana as its "object"? But how does one take Nibbana as the mind object such that a lokuttara citta may arise? Is such mind action a direct citta experience without conceptualization or pannatti?Is the lokuttara panna, which accompanies the lokuttara citta, the same as a magga-nana? N: As insight develops, also concentration and calm develop by conditions. You do not have to try to be concentrated. T: I understand that concentration (samadhi) and calm (passaddhi) are two factors of the 7 factors of awakening (bojjhanga), which are developed "dependent on seclusion (viveka), dependent on dispassion(viraga), dependent on cessation(nirodha), resulting in letting go(patinissagga)" [SN LIV.2]. The seclusion, and anupassana on dispassion and cessation are not easy for most worldlings to do. In addition, the bojjhanga factors are at the higher level than both samatha bhavana (e.g. the anapanasati bhavana) and the four foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana), according to SN LIV.13, Ananda Sutta. But your statement above makes the development of the two bojjhanga factors sounds so easy. Thank you in advance for your help. If similar questions exist and have been answered, then please just show me where I can find those answers. Kindest regards, Tep ======== 40828 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 5:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Htoo's request-Mike's reply-Htoo's response- and now.. Tep suggested here_ Hi Htoo, Mike and Nina - I do not follow the suggestion that habits (vasana) "reside" in sankhara khandha. Because 'avijja paccaya sankhara' as stated by the Dependent Origination, and avijja no longer "resides" in the Arahat, so how come vasana still does? I think habit is probably a part of the sanna khandha. What do you think? Kindest regards, Tep ============= ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Tep, Mike, Nina and All, I think 'sankhara' the term plays a central role in this whole matter. I use 3 sankharas for D.O. They are apunnabhi-sankhara, punnabhi- sankhara and aanenjabhi-sankhara. Other use 'kaya-sankhara', 'vaci-sankhara', and 'mano-sankhara'. In my classification 1.apunnabhisankhara is akusala cittas serving as javana cittas or mental impulsion when akusala dhammas are being created. This includes creation at kaya-dvara (so kaya-sankhara is already included0, at vaci-dvara (so vaci-sankhara is already included0 and at mano-dvara (so mano-sankhara is alreadu included). Arahats do not do any of these apunnabhi-sankhara. 2.punnabhi-sankhara is kusala cittas serving as javana cittas or mental impulsion when kusala dhammas are being created. This includes creation at kaya-dvara, vaci-dvara, and mano-dvara. Arahats do not do any of these punnabhi-sankhara. When they do offering mahakiriya javana cittas arise. These are not kusala dhamma. These are abyakata dhamma. So arahats do not do punnabhi-sankhara. 3.aanenjabhi-sankhara is rupakusala and arupakusala while punnabhi- sankhara is kama kusala. Aanejabhi-sankhara is rupakusala or arupakusala serving as javana cittas when rupa jhanas or arupa jhanas are respectively being developed. This involves kamma creation at mano-dvara only. Arahats do not do any of these rupakusala and arupakusala dhamma, which are aanenjabhi-sankhara. When in rupa jhana or in arupa jhana, arahats are being developing rupakiriya or arupakiriya cittas. These cittas are not creating any kamma. They are abyakata dhamma. When the classification of 'kaya-sankhara, vaci-sankhara, and mano- sankhara' is used it will not be clear to some people. Arahats do not do any of 3 sankharas (apunnabhi-sankhara, punnabhi- sankhara, and aanenjabhi-sankhara). But arahats do kaya action, vaci action and mano action. Arahats are still living and they are not in nibbana yet. So they are just congregation of 5 khandhas. Among them sankhara.kkhandha is one. When they move, walk, eat, give, they are doing kaya-sankhara. But they are not doing any of apunnabhi-, punnabhi-, aanenjabhi-sankhara. As they still have sankhara.kkhandha they do kaya-sankhara. When they speak, tell someone something, groan, they are doing vaci- sankhara. But they do not do any of apunnabhi-sankhara, punnabhi- sankhara and aanenjabhi-sankhara. As they still have sankhara.kkhandha they do speak. They do preach dhamma and they do teach lay people whenever opportunity arises. They are doing vaci- sankhara. But not of any of three sankhara of apunnabhi-, punnabhi- and aanenjabhi-sankhara. When they are thinking or planning to take a trip to go and meet The Buddha, their thinking is mano-sankhara. But they are not doing apunnabhi-, punnabhi- and aanenjabhi-sankhara. As they still have sankhara.kkhandha they still do mano-sankhara. When they are in rupa jhana or arupa jhana, they are creating mano- sankhara. But they are not doing any of apuunabhi-, punnabhi- and aanenjabhi-sankhara. As they still have sankhara.kkhandha they are still doing mano-sankhara. I do hope this whole message is clear to you and all. The reason why I stick to sankhara of D.O to 'apunnabhi, punnabhi- and aanenjabhi- sankhara' is to avoid unlarity and ambiguity. Because of sankhara.kkhandha [example cetana leading to speaking], arahats do speak. But they continue to speak fast if they used to speak fast and they continue to speak slowly if they used to speak slowly. This is not changed after attainment of arahatta magga nana. The Buddha is the only satta who completely eradicate vasana or habit. Even Moggallana, Sariputta and all great arahats could not eradicate their habit as they are used to their habit. That habit is linked with sankhara. But this sankhara is sankhara.kkhandha. Not sankhara of D.O. Yes, arahats do not have defilements. So they do not have avijja. As there is no avijja there is no sankhara. This sankhara means 'apunnabhi-sankhara' or 'punnabhi-sankhara' or 'aanenjabhi- sankhara'. This sankhara does not mean 'sankhara.kkhandha'. That is why I accepted Mike's suggestion that habit or vasana is sankhara. Actually it is not equation. That is 'it is wrong to say 'vasana = sankhara'. But vasana is just pannatti but it is linked with sankhara. With Metta, Htoo Naing 40829 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 5:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Hi, Kelvin - I really like your answers to David. Coincidentally, some of my questions to Nina fall along the same direction as David's. Would you be kind enough to read those questions of mine in #40827 and tell me what you think? This is just asking for a second opinion. Thank you very much. Kindest regards, Tep ========== --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > David, > > Kel: Let me add to this discussion by offering some definitions > which might help clear up some points or not. :) > > > How does one attain samadhi without developing the > > jhanas? > Kel: Jhanic concentration can be separated into: access and > absorption. They have the same characteristics, cetasikas. > Absorption is what allows one to stay immersed because the mind is > completely steady on a particular object, hence results in a really > really long vithi. Access concentration is what gives you entry to > absorption state, hence the name. So one could develop samadhi that > is the level of jhana and keep it at access without going into > absorption. > Proponents of satipatthana method put forth momentary concentration > as equivalent in quality to access concentration. The big difference > is in momentary concentration the object does and necessarily changes > from one moment to the next. However, the mind is like a shadow to > the changing object and move together without any gaps. Instead of > practicing in distinct steps, one cultivate samadhi and panna > together. By definition in Abhidhamma, magga citta has to be at least > first jhana quality. Momentary concentration argument says it is the > same quality, just the treatment of the object is different compared > to samantha or jhanic based method. > > > How can one take nibbana as an object if one has never > > experienced it and if it is not an object? The Buddha > > described nibbana as uncompounded, unborn, etc. If > > something is uncompounded, it has no parts, if it has > > no parts it is not an object. I'm not trying to be > > saucy, just trying to understand your viewpoint. > Kel: This is always a tricky point. Nibbana is a real object or > else our mind can't advert to it. It is just not of the mundane world > hence it's not conditioned like phenomena are. Magga/Phala cittas > have nibbana as the object when they occur. Only the first time one > experiences nibbana is called magga and subsequent times are called > phala, they're basically the same. If you look at the enlightenment > vithi, there's a preceding citta that is in-between mundane and > supramundane. It is said to act as a bridge for one's liberation and > discovers nibbana. So in a sense, nibbana is always there. Once our > minds are pure enough, we'll find nibbana and it's not like the mind > caused it to arise. > > - kel 40830 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 5:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Compassion .. Idiot Compassion .. Conspicuous Compassion --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Christine and rob K, > op 09-01-2005 04:30 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@y...: > Once the Buddha was addressing the monks during the Patimokkha and > > he observed that one of the monks was full of evil wishes. He > > stopped the recitation and asked the monk to leave. But the monk > > stayed where he was, until Moggallana forcefully took hold of his > > arm and removed him from the assembly. All done with compassion. > N: Yes, we have to consider what the Buddha said when monks were harming > each other. He would also speak sternly. Read the Vinaya. He would say: you > foolish monk... > Nina. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, Robert K and All, This is like patting of pot by pot-maker at pottery. With respect, Htoo Naing 40831 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 5:19pm Subject: Re: right effort --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi All, > > > something "I can do" or should be able to do. Even when > > we make the conventional effort, the result would depend on the > viriya > > (and other conditions), not the self we are used to thinking of > as > > "doing". Until viriya has developed to the point where it is one > of the > > bala or powers, it is only natural that there would be some > > discouragement, I think. > > > > "Effort" is another example of where the English translation > doesn't quite > > work. To just say 'effort' doesn't really say anything about > viriya's > > function as "the effort and perseverance in taking note, > examining, > > knowing the characteristics of naamadhamma and ruupadhamma > appearing. > > (Sammohavinodani, the commentary of Vibha"ngapakara.na > > Iddhipaadavibha"nganiddesa)" [SPD] and we can lose the sense of it > > http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6e.htm is a good exposition on > the role of viriya and what it means to be indriya. It makes a > difference between bodily viriya and mental factor viriya. > > http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6f.htm is on the meaning of > balas. > > - kel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Kel, Thanks for your link. There are 5 indriyas. The fifth indriya is 'pannindriya'. It is panna. But it is not pannadriya. With many thanks, Htoo Naing 40832 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 5:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > David, > > Kel: Let me add to this discussion by offering some definitions > which might help clear up some points or not. :) > > > How does one attain samadhi without developing the > > jhanas? > Kel: Jhanic concentration can be separated into: access and > absorption. They have the same characteristics, cetasikas. > Absorption is what allows one to stay immersed because the mind is > completely steady on a particular object, hence results in a really > really long vithi. Access concentration is what gives you entry to > absorption state, hence the name. So one could develop samadhi that > is the level of jhana and keep it at access without going into > absorption. > Proponents of satipatthana method put forth momentary concentration > as equivalent in quality to access concentration. The big difference > is in momentary concentration the object does and necessarily changes > from one moment to the next. However, the mind is like a shadow to > the changing object and move together without any gaps. Instead of > practicing in distinct steps, one cultivate samadhi and panna > together. By definition in Abhidhamma, magga citta has to be at least > first jhana quality. Momentary concentration argument says it is the > same quality, just the treatment of the object is different compared > to samantha or jhanic based method. > > > How can one take nibbana as an object if one has never > > experienced it and if it is not an object? The Buddha > > described nibbana as uncompounded, unborn, etc. If > > something is uncompounded, it has no parts, if it has > > no parts it is not an object. I'm not trying to be > > saucy, just trying to understand your viewpoint. > Kel: This is always a tricky point. Nibbana is a real object or > else our mind can't advert to it. It is just not of the mundane world > hence it's not conditioned like phenomena are. Magga/Phala cittas > have nibbana as the object when they occur. Only the first time one > experiences nibbana is called magga and subsequent times are called > phala, they're basically the same. If you look at the enlightenment > vithi, there's a preceding citta that is in-between mundane and > supramundane. It is said to act as a bridge for one's liberation and > discovers nibbana. So in a sense, nibbana is always there. Once our > minds are pure enough, we'll find nibbana and it's not like the mind > caused it to arise. > > - kel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Kel, Thanks for your explanation to David. I like your word '1st jhana quality'. In my Dhamma Thread whenever I reach lokuttara jhana cittas I say very cleary that 'when lokuttara cittas arise in the vicinity of rupa jhana or arupa jhana they are called lokuttara jhana cittas and there are 40 lokuttara jhana cittas as there are 5 stages of jhana [all arupa jhanas can be counted as 5th jhana as there are only upekkha and ekaggata as jhana factors in arupa jhana]. Rapavacara jhanas and arupavacara jhanas are not lokuttara cittas. They cannot take lokuttara object that is they cannot take nibbana as object as long as they take their own object of pannatti (all rupa jhanas and akasananca-ayatana arupa jhana and akincanna-ayatana arupa jhana) or mahaggata object in case of vinnananca-ayatana arupa jhana and n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana arupa jhana. So 1st rupa jhana 2nd rupa jhana 3rd rupa jhana 4th rupa jhana 1st arupa jhana [or akasananca-ayatana arupa jhana] 2nd arupa jhana [or vinnananca-ayatana arupa jhana] 3rd arupa jhana [or akincanna-ayatana arupa jhana] 4th arupa jhana [or n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana arupa jhana] cannot take nibbana as their object when they are taking their own object of pannatti or mahaggata. No citta can take 2 object at the same time. Samadhi Sutta may say these are samma-samadhi. This is right. But if these are still rupavacara and arupavacara cittas they can never be lokuttara cittas. If suttas are very closely learned there will find that ..away from hindrances and enter into 1st jhana, emerge from it and enter into 2nd jhana, emerge from it and enter into 3rd jhana, emerge from it and enter into 4th jhana, emerge from it and enter into 1st arupa jhana, emerge from it and enter into 2nd arupa jhana, emerge from it and enter into 3rd arupa jhana, emerge from it and enter into 4th arupa jhana or n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana arupa jhana..This is samma-samadhi. Actually all 9 states are equal in terms of liberation from nivarana dhamma. 1. khanika samadhi 2. 1st jhana appana samadhi or 1st jhana 3. 2nd jhana appana samadhi or 2nd jhana 4. 3rd jhana appana samadhi or 3rd jhana 5. 4th jhana appana samadhi or 4th jhana 6. 1st arupa jhana appana samadhi or 1st arupa jhana 7. 2nd arupa jhana appana samadhi or 2nd arupa jhana 8. 3rd arupa jhana appana samadhi or 3rd arupa jhana 9. 4th arupa jhana appana samadhi or 4th arupa jhana or NPNNP No sutta say samma-samadhi must be 'AT LEAST' 1st jhana. But as you [Kel] said it is 1st jhana quality. When khanika samadhi is achieved this means that golden key has been obtained and it is quite ready to enter 1st jhana and higher and higher jhana. That is why it is said 'access concentration'. This samadhi has access to appana samadhi or jhana absorption. But unlike appana samadhi it is flexible and movable and can well cognize 'ANICCA, DUKKHA, ANATTA'. Appana means 'very close'. Citta is so close to its object that there is no gap between them or they are fused that is citta is absorbed into object or object is absorbed by citta. When this happen these JHANA CITTAS cannot see any 'MARK of ANICCA, DUKKHA, ANATTA. And so they will not see NIBBANA as long as they are absorbed in their object. Actually this whole reply post answers 'whether appana jhana is necessary or not for attainment of magga nanas'. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: Last night I was fully conscious to my breath for a full hour. There was no hindrances at all. But I was not absorbed in that session of meditation. 40833 From: Tep Sastri Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 6:00pm Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence Hi, Htoo - I appreciate reading your reply to a previous question about habit or vasana. H: Arahats do not do any of 3 sankharas (apunnabhi-sankhara, punnabhi-sankhara, and aanenjabhi-sankhara). But arahats do kaya action, vaci action and mano action. Arahats are still living and they are not in nibbana yet. So they are just congregation of 5 khandhas. Among them sankhara.kkhandha is one. T: I do understand the difference between the first set (apunnabhi- sankhara, punnabhi-sankhara, and aanenjabhi-sankhara) and the second set (kaya action, vaci action and mano action), but it is not clear how habit (vasana) belongs to the second set. I am sorry. H: When they are in rupa jhana or arupa jhana, they are creating mano- sankhara. But they are not doing any of apuunabhi-, punnabhi- and aanenjabhi-sankhara. As they still have sankhara.kkhandha they are still doing mano-sankhara. I do hope this whole message is clear to you and all. The reason why I stick to sankhara of D.O to 'apunnabhi, punnabhi- and aanenjabhi- sankhara' is to avoid unlarity and ambiguity. ...Because of sankhara.kkhandha [example cetana leading to speaking], arahats do speak. But they continue to speak fast if they used to speak fast and they continue to speak slowly if they used to speak slowly. This is not changed after attainment of arahatta magga nana. T: Yes, thank you for taking an effort explaining that the first set is indeed different from the second set; yes, it is extremely clear that the two are different. However, still it is not clear why vasana belongs to the sankhara.kkhandha, not sanna khandha or anything else. Is this simply because habit manifest through the three actions? But there also are several things that relate to the three actions, e.g. memories, understanding, and so on, and they do not belong to sankhara khandha. And they do fall away, while vasana does not. Why? H: That habit is linked with sankhara. But this sankhara is sankhara.kkhandha. Not sankhara of D.O. ... That is 'it is wrong to say 'vasana = sankhara'. But vasana is just pannatti but it is linked with sankhara. T: I agree with you that the second set of sankhara (kaya action, vaci action and mano action) is different from the sankhara of D.O. But why must vasana be just a pannatti that links with sankhara, not a pannatti that links to sanna khandha? Kind regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > > Dear Tep, Mike, Nina and All, > > I think 'sankhara' the term plays a central role in this whole matter. > > I use 3 sankharas for D.O. They are apunnabhi-sankhara, punnabhi- > sankhara and aanenjabhi-sankhara. > > Other use 'kaya-sankhara', 'vaci-sankhara', and 'mano-sankhara'. > > In my classification > > That habit is linked with sankhara. But this sankhara is > sankhara.kkhandha. Not sankhara of D.O. > > Yes, arahats do not have defilements. So they do not have avijja. As > there is no avijja there is no sankhara. This sankhara > means 'apunnabhi-sankhara' or 'punnabhi-sankhara' or 'aanenjabhi- > sankhara'. This sankhara does not mean 'sankhara.kkhandha'. > > That is why I accepted Mike's suggestion that habit or vasana is > sankhara. Actually it is not equation. > > That is 'it is wrong to say 'vasana = sankhara'. But vasana is just > pannatti but it is linked with sankhara. > > With Metta, > > Htoo Naing 40834 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 6:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Hi Tep, Happy to reply with what I know. > T: explained that samadhi could be developed without samatha-bhavana > (e.g. through Buddhanussati). Kel: Again a little bit of definition will help here I think. Samatha-bhavana refers to tranquility or calm based methods. All 40 objects of meditation (including Buddhanussati) falls under samatha. They can also fall under vipassana, just depends on how one practice it. Let me take a technique you mention later, anapanasati to illustrate it's not the object but the way you practice that makes it one or another. Anapana starts by noting incoming breath and outgoing breath. This part is used for calming the mind and learning how to focus, samatha. For jhanas, one keep doing that, cultivating concentration by just keeping the mind on the breath. There's no investigation or understanding of underlying phenomena. Some traditions start to dissect each breath by noting the beginning, middle and end. This basically allows one to see arising/passing away of physical activity, breath so it falls under kayanupassana. There it transitioned from samatha to vipassana before arriving at jhana(absorption). Yet other traditions use breath to not note the breath itself but the sensations that appears along with the breath. This would fall under dhatu-based method or vedanupassana. Again you can utilize breath to extend to cittanupassana or dhammanupassana but it's a harder transition. Basically, using the same object one can be doing samatha or vipassana. Sidenote: you can attain jhana using any of the 40 objects, though the highest obtainable jhana is different. > T: Is mind with "enlightenment" the same as an arisen lokuttara > citta that takes Nibbana as its "object"? yes > T: But how does one take Nibbana as the > mind object such that a lokuttara citta may arise? Is such mind action a > direct citta experience without conceptualization or pannatti? Kel: Nibbana isn't one of the 40 objects one can take as subject/object of meditation. Now this is why lokuttara citta won't appear while practicing samatha alone. One needs to be contemplating anicca, dukkha or anatta for it to arise. Everyone needs to transition to vipassana with or without jhana to achieve enlightenment. While meditating on the three signs of any of objects, the lokuttara citta with nibbana as the object arises. > T:Is the lokuttara panna, which accompanies the lokuttara citta, > the same as a magga-nana? Kel: yup. The same lokuttara panna is also named phala-nana. It essentially refers to the time when one isn't striving for further enlightenment but just enjoying what one has already achieved. Again phala-nana will have nibbana as the object. Only once (one citta) in one's infinite rounds in samsara, will one experience this so-called magga-nana. As you know there's 4 maggas so it's only 4 cittas total out of infinite that is considered magga-nana. One can of course enjoy and dwell in phala-nana as many times as one wants (provided one is skilled at it). For example anagamis can only enjoy anagami-phala, not the lower ones and obviously not the higher. > N: As insight develops, also concentration and calm develop by > conditions. You do not have to try to be concentrated. > > T: I understand that concentration (samadhi) and calm (passaddhi) are > two factors of the 7 factors of awakening (bojjhanga), which are > developed "dependent on seclusion (viveka), dependent on > dispassion(viraga), dependent on cessation(nirodha), resulting in > letting go(patinissagga)" [SN LIV.2]. The seclusion, and anupassana > on dispassion and cessation are not easy for most worldlings to do. In > addition, the bojjhanga factors are at the higher level than both > samatha bhavana (e.g. the anapanasati bhavana) and the four > foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana), according to SN LIV.13, > Ananda Sutta. But your statement above makes the development of > the two bojjhanga factors sounds so easy. Kel: This goes back to the function of indriyas. They're rulers in not only being able to win over opposites, but they bring forth with them their army/allies: other indriyas and mental factors that are conducive to enlightenment. (notice the mutual relation of one indriya with each other) So if one is riding the panna-vehicle then concentration and calm will and should be developed. Btw, once one master samadhi and use it as a vehicle, they don't have to try hard to concentrate either. In fact, one monk said if at all you're straining or trying to get concentration, it definitely isn't samma samadhi. I find it helpful to re-examine the way I'm practicing to see if lobha has creeped in to make me tense by trying too hard. I'll give some example of the type of meditation that uses different indriyas. satipatthana - satindriya (big surprise) samatha - samadhindriya vipassana - pannindriya (in general) buddhanussati - saddhindriya no sleep - viriyindriya Doesn't mean you can forget about the others. You need a balance of all five but there is an idea of one leading the way and this very much depends on the person's disposition/habit. By using any of the 5, one needs to develop it to Bojjhanga quality. So once you achieve it everything is there nice and balanced :) Good luck to all of us. - kel 40835 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 6:26pm Subject: Re: Doubt and Confidence Tep wrote: Hi, Htoo - I appreciate reading your reply to a previous question about habit or vasana. >H: Arahats do not do any of 3 sankharas (apunnabhi-sankhara, punnabhi-sankhara, and aanenjabhi-sankhara). But arahats do kaya action, vaci action and mano action. Arahats are still living and they are not in nibbana yet. So they are just congregation of 5 khandhas. Among them sankhara.kkhandha is one. T: I do understand the difference between the first set (apunnabhi- sankhara, punnabhi-sankhara, and aanenjabhi-sankhara) and the second set (kaya action, vaci action and mano action), but it is not clear how habit (vasana) belongs to the second set. I am sorry. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Vasana is not sankhara. I already said in my reply. When we search for vasana we cannot find vasana. You may remember when water is searched there is no water at all. Water is pannatti. When vasana cannot be searched as an ultimate reality then it is not an ultimate reality. Belong to is not that right, I think. I just meant 'just linkage'. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: When they are in rupa jhana or arupa jhana, they are creating mano-sankhara. But they are not doing any of apuunabhi-, punnabhi- and aanenjabhi-sankhara. As they still have sankhara.kkhandha they are still doing mano-sankhara. I do hope this whole message is clear to you and all. The reason why I stick to sankhara of D.O to 'apunnabhi, punnabhi- and aanenjabhi- sankhara' is to avoid unlarity and ambiguity. ...Because of sankhara.kkhandha [example cetana leading to speaking], arahats do speak. But they continue to speak fast if they used to speak fast and they continue to speak slowly if they used to speak slowly. This is not changed after attainment of arahatta magga nana. Tep wrote: T: Yes, thank you for taking an effort explaining that the first set is indeed different from the second set; yes, it is extremely clear that the two are different. However, still it is not clear why vasana belongs to the sankhara.kkhandha, not sanna khandha or anything else. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I have explained above. Please try to search 'vasana' as an ultimate reality. You would not find it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep continued: Is this simply because habit manifest through the three actions? But there also are several things that relate to the three actions, e.g. memories, understanding, and so on, and they do not belong to sankhara khandha. And they do fall away, while vasana does not. Why? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: If fall away, that fall away is conditioned dhamma and ultimate reality of sankhata dhamma. Vasana does not fall away because there is no 'vasana' as an ultimate reality. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > H: That habit is linked with sankhara. But this sankhara is sankhara.kkhandha. Not sankhara of D.O. ... That is 'it is wrong to say 'vasana = sankhara'. But vasana is just pannatti but it is linked with sankhara. Tep wrote: T: I agree with you that the second set of sankhara (kaya action, vaci action and mano action) is different from the sankhara of D.O. But why must vasana be just a pannatti that links with sankhara, not a pannatti that links to sanna khandha? Kind regards, Tep ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: What recognise 'vasana' is sanna while 'vasana' itself is not a sanna. You recognise someone's typical style of walking. Even when light available is very dim you can still recognise that person through his or her typical style of walking. There is no 'you' but I use 'you' for communication. When you recognize that person through her typical walking style you recognise her 'vasana'. Again when you search for her 'vasana' you will not find it. Because it does not exist. Vasana is pannatti. What you see is her shape, her form, brightness-darkness of light and colour. And you will never see her vasana at all. I hope this reply works for you. With Metta, Htoo Naing 40836 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 6:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > ----------------------------------- > Howard: > So, do you think that visual objects, or sights, are a matter of > convention? When we open our eyes and look, is the sight a matter of convention? (I > don't mean how we then cognize it by means of cutting it up into regions and > conventional objects. I mean just the very brief, unembellished sight.) > BTW, I shouldn't really be the person "defending" Abhidhamma. I, > myself, have a few "problems" with it. More importantly, I know very little of it. > I would welcome other, more knowledgeable, folks joining in on this > conversation. Dear Howard, I think you're doing a pretty good job by yourself already. Robert 40837 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 6:53pm Subject: Re: jhanas Kel wrote: Hi Tep, Happy to reply with what I know. Tep's old post: > > T: explained that samadhi could be developed without samatha- bhavana > > (e.g. through Buddhanussati). Kel wrote: Kel: Again a little bit of definition will help here I think. Samatha-bhavana refers to tranquility or calm based methods. All 40 objects of meditation (including Buddhanussati) falls under samatha. They can also fall under vipassana, just depends on how one practice it. Let me take a technique you mention later, anapanasati to illustrate it's not the object but the way you practice that makes it one or another. Anapana starts by noting incoming breath and outgoing breath. Thispart is used for calming the mind and learning how to focus, samatha. For jhanas, one keep doing that, cultivating concentration by justkeeping the mind on the breath. There's no investigation or understanding of underlying phenomena. Some traditions start to dissect each breath by noting the beginning, middle and end. This basically allows one to see arising/passing away of physical activity, breath so it falls under kayanupassana. There it transitioned from samatha to vipassana before arriving at jhana(absorption). Yet other traditions use breath to not note the breath itself but the sensations that appears along with the breath. This would fall under dhatu-based method or vedanupassana. Again you can utilize breath to extend to cittanupassana or dhammanupassana but it's a harder transition. Basically, using the same object one can be doing samatha or vipassana. Sidenote: you can attain jhana using any of the 40 objects, though the highest obtainable jhana is different. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Kel, sorry if I am butting in between you and Tep. But above you said 'you can attain jhana using any of the 40 objects, though the highest obtainable jhana is different'. I think, you should be specific to say above sentence. 10 of 40 objects cannot directly give rise to appana jhana level. They are 1. Buddhanussati 2. Dhammanussati 3. Sanghanussati 4. Silanussati 5. Caganussati 6. Devatanussati 7. Upasamanussati 8. Marananussati 9. Aharepatikulasanna 10.Catudhatuvavatthana But all 40 can give rise to upacara samadhi or khanika samadhi. Not appana samadhi. If you label upacara samadhi or khanika samadhi as jhana then you are right. If not the above 10 object cannot give rise to absorption level. Because those objects are all complex and very complicated object. With Metta, Htoo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Tep's old post: > > T: Is mind with "enlightenment" the same as an arisen lokuttara > > citta that takes Nibbana as its "object"? Kel answered: yes > > T: But how does one take Nibbana as the > > mind object such that a lokuttara citta may arise? Is such mind > action a > > direct citta experience without conceptualization or pannatti? > Kel: Nibbana isn't one of the 40 objects one can take as > subject/object of meditation. Now this is why lokuttara citta won't > appear while practicing samatha alone. One needs to be contemplating > anicca, dukkha or anatta for it to arise. Everyone needs to > transition to vipassana with or without jhana to achieve > enlightenment. While meditating on the three signs of any of objects, > the lokuttara citta with nibbana as the object arises. > > > T:Is the lokuttara panna, which accompanies the lokuttara citta, > > the same as a magga-nana? Kel: yup. The same lokuttara panna is also named phala-nana. It essentially refers to the time when one isn't striving for further enlightenment but just enjoying what one has already achieved. Again phala-nana will have nibbana as the object. Only once (one citta) in one's infinite rounds in samsara, will one experience this so-called magga-nana. As you know there's 4 maggas so it's only 4 cittas total out of infinite that is considered magga-nana. One can of course enjoy and dwell in phala-nana as many times as one wants (provided one is skilled at it). For example anagamis can only enjoy anagami-phala, not the lower ones and obviously not the higher. > > N: As insight develops, also concentration and calm develop by > > conditions. You do not have to try to be concentrated. > > > > T: I understand that concentration (samadhi) and calm (passaddhi) are > > two factors of the 7 factors of awakening (bojjhanga), which are > > developed "dependent on seclusion (viveka), dependent on > > dispassion(viraga), dependent on cessation(nirodha), resulting in > > letting go(patinissagga)" [SN LIV.2]. The seclusion, and anupassana > > on dispassion and cessation are not easy for most worldlings to do. In > > addition, the bojjhanga factors are at the higher level than both > > samatha bhavana (e.g. the anapanasati bhavana) and the four > > foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana), according to SN LIV.13, > > Ananda Sutta. But your statement above makes the development of > > the two bojjhanga factors sounds so easy. Kel: This goes back to the function of indriyas. They're rulers in not only being able to win over opposites, but they bring forth with them their army/allies: other indriyas and mental factors that are conducive to enlightenment. (notice the mutual relation of one indriya with each other) So if one is riding the panna-vehicle then concentration and calm will and should be developed. Btw, once one master samadhi and use it as a vehicle, they don't have to try hard to concentrate either. In fact, one monk said if at all you're straining or trying to get concentration, it definitely isn't samma samadhi. I find it helpful to re-examine the way I'm practicing to see if lobha has creeped in to make me tense by trying too hard. I'll give some example of the type of meditation that uses different indriyas. satipatthana - satindriya (big surprise) samatha - samadhindriya vipassana - pannindriya (in general) buddhanussati - saddhindriya no sleep - viriyindriya Doesn't mean you can forget about the others. You need a balance of all five but there is an idea of one leading the way and this very much depends on the person's disposition/habit. By using any of the 5, one needs to develop it to Bojjhanga quality. So once you achieve it everything is there nice and balanced :) Good luck to all of us. - kel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Dear Kel, your reply to Tep is amazing, I must admit. Thanks for your clear explanation on dhamma especially on bala and indriya dhammas. With much respect, Htoo Naing 40838 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Hi, Larry - In a message dated 1/9/05 7:08:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > What I meant is that all meanings are real. The meaning of "person" is > the 5 khandhas, the meaning of "tree" is all the various rupas that go > into making a tree. Even fanciful words like "permanent", "self", or > "generality", have real meanings. Where we get in trouble is in the > beliefs we construct out of them. If words didn't have real meanings > they wouldn't make sense. To make sense means to make real by pointing > to realities. > > Larry > ========================== But, Larry, what people mean by a tree is not a bunch of rupas. That just isn't what they mean. Moreover, there is no specific, well defined set of such rupas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40839 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 7:12pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (224) Dear Dhamma Friends, Panca-dvara vithi varas have been discussed in the previous posts. Regarding mano-dvara vithi vara kama javana varas have been discussed. There are 2 visaya-pavatti or 'arising of object' in kama javana vara. They are vibhuta-arammana or very obvious object and avibhuta-arammana or obvious object. In avibhuta-arammana at the end of javana cittas that is after 7th javana citta there follow just bhavanaga cittas and tadarammana cittas cannot arise. This is in kama javana vithi vara. Other mano-dvara vithi varas are manodvara appana javana varas. In these appana javana varas there are only vibhuta-arammana and there is no avibhuta-arammana unlike kama javana vara. But in appana javana varas there are no tadarammana cittas. Because the realms of citta in these javana varas are not kama javana varas. Tadarammana cittas arise only in 1. kama sattas 2. kama javana vara 3. kama object [ all three in combination and all 3 must be present for tadarammana cittas to arise ]. There are many appana javana varas. They are 1. jhana vithi vara 2. magga vithi vara 3. abhinna vithi vara 4. jhana samapatti vithi vara 5. phala samapatti vithi vara 6. nirodhasamapatti vithi vara May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40840 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 2:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Hi, Robert - In a message dated 1/9/05 9:30:29 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Dear Howard, > I think you're doing a pretty good job by yourself already. > Robert > ======================= Thank you. :-) With metta, Howsrd /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40841 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 7:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] 5 Aggregates / Concepts / Ultimate Realities Howard: "But, Larry, what people mean by a tree is not a bunch of rupas. That just isn't what they mean. Moreover, there is no specific, well defined set of such rupas." Hi Howard, Everyone means different things at different times. For "tree" most of the time I mean a specific visual data. The error is in saying this visual data is a tree, but that is a matter of belief, or failure of the equation "tree" equals all impermanent, real components (meanings) of tree. I would still say meanings are realities. Even with a word like "I" there is a real meaning. With me, when I'm not thinking about it, it is usually a bodily feeling in the area of the heart. Sometimes names are virtually meaningless. In that case it is questionable whether they are really names (intimations). Larry 40842 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 7:55pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (225) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are many appana javana varas. They are 1. jhana vithi vara 2. magga vithi vara 3. abhinna vithi vara 4. jhana samapatti vithi vara 5. phala samapatti vithi vara 6. nirodhasamapatti vithi vara In citta portion of Dhamma Thread different jhana cittas were discussed. But they will again be discussed when kammatthana portion approaches. In this post 1st jhana will be used as an example. 1st jhana can be attained by practising any of the following 25 kammatthana or 25 bhavana objects. a) 10 kasina kammatthanas b) 10 asubha kammatthanas c) 3 of 4 brahmavihara kammatthanas d) 1 anapanassati kammatthana e) 1 kayagatasati kammatthana ----------------- 25 1st jhanaja kammatthanas Before arising of jhana vithi vara, there are kama javana vithi vara of makavacara mahakusala javana vithi vara. If the jhana practitioner is practising Odata kasina kammatthana, he will be initially looking at 'the circular circle of white object'. This object is initially rupa-arammana. Kasina means 'the whole'. So the practitioner has to look into the whole circle and his mind is evenly spread through out the whole surface of that white kasina object. This starts with panca-dvara vithi vara of cakkhudvara vithi vara. But this is alternated with manodvara vithi vara of kamavacara mahakusala javana vara. In terms of kammatthana his initial action or bhavana is called parikamma bhavana. Because that action is preparing for higher kamma that is higher bhavana kusala kamma such as jhana kusala kamma. The visual object now is called parikamma nimitta or preparatory image. Because this object which is an image used in preparation of higher bhavana kusala kamma. With a long practice the practitioner at a time becomes able to cognize the whole object at mano-dvara without the visual aid. This means that there arises another object at mano-dvara. That object is exactly the same as visual object. For example if there is a very small spot at the margin of visual object then one that appears at mano-dvara also includes that spot. Appearing of this object indicates that the samadhi at that time is not the same with that of initial stage of practice. Now that samadhi is well calm and it is called parikamma samadhi. The object is called mental image of visual object. It is called uggaha nimitta. The samadhi at this stage is preparing for higher samadhi like upacara samadhi and appana samadhi. Now all vithi varas start to be pure mano-dvara vithi varas. But all these vithi varas are kamavacara mahakusala javana vara. As usual they are intervened with bhavanga cittas. At a time there arise a similar but different image at mano-dvara. It is white circle. But unlike the initial one and its mental image one, this new object is free of any spot, any stain, and it is brilliently white and luminous and radiant. It is very beautiful. It is counter image of the mental image. It is called patibhaga nimitta. When this object arises at mano-dvara samadhi becomes much more stronger. Nivara dhamma or hindrances start to silt down when uggaha nimitta arises. But occasionally nivarana dhamma or hindrances arise. Since patibhaga nimitta arises mind becomes clear and much more calm and there is no nivarana dhamma or no hindrances at all. But the practitioner is still not in jhana or still not absorbed in the patibhaga nimitta. The samadhi which starts from arising of patibhaga nimitta up till arising of gotrabhu citta in jhana vithi vara is called upacara samadhi. The bhavana that is developing at that time is called upacara bhavana. There is no hindrances at all. At a time vitakka or initial application, vicara or sustained application, piti or joy, sukha or calmness, ekaggata or one-pointedness are working to their fullest power and the practitioner closely looks at the patibhaga nimitta and there arises a time when 1st jhana kusala citta is just going to arise for the first time. At that moment everything is ready for 1st jhana citta to arise. But as cittas are tired they lapse into bhavanga cittas for a while and then jhana vithi vara starts to arise with manodvara-avajjana citta as initial vithi citta at mano-dvara. In this jhana vithi vara the picture is like this. BBBBBBB..BBBMPUAGJBBBBBBBBBB B = bhavanga citta M = manodvara-avajjana citta P = parikamma mahakusala citta U = upacara mahakusala citta A = anuloma mahakusala citta G = gotrabhu mahakusala lineage-changing citta J = 1st rupa jhana kusala citta May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40843 From: Antony Woods Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 8:31pm Subject: flashbacks and guilt Dear Sarah and Group, In the last week or so I have been using some Abhidhamma to deal with flashbacks and guilt. I note that all feelings (vedana) are conditioned by contact (phassa) which is for example the mental event where the visible object, the eye-organ and the eye-consciousness arise. How does this apply to flashbacks (horrible memories of being a perpetrator of cruelty) and guilt? Are flashbacks mind-objects or do I note them as “seeing, seeing”? I think I read in Nyanaponika’s “Abhidhamma Studies” that memories are perceptions (sanna). Does this mean that memories are perceptions occurring in the present moment rather than the reading off a “hard disk” of a record of what happened in the past? Thanks / Antony. 40844 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 8:44pm Subject: Dhamma Thread (226) Dear Dhamma Friends, There are many appana javana varas. They are 1. jhana vithi vara 2. magga vithi vara 3. abhinna vithi vara 4. jhana samapatti vithi vara 5. phala samapatti vithi vara 6. nirodhasamapatti vithi vara Among these vithi vara, jhana vithi vara has been expalined in the previous post. Magga vithi vara is output of vipassana bhavana. It derives from kamavacara mahakusala cittas. Sometime at early stages upacara samadhi or appana samadhi help nivara dhamma clear off the mind. Viapassana nanas are not that simple to expalain in a post. Because there are many inputs into arising of such highly developed wisdom. At earlier parts of the whole path, the practitioner learns as much as possible regarding dhamma and he discerns the dhamma at all cost. As there is a deep and firm belief this makes him to develop higher sila. Unlike sila in ordinary time, sila of practising vipassana practitioner is much more purere than others. As he is watching out at 6 dvaras or 6 doors and as there do not arise any nivarana dhamma or hindrances he has a very pure sila called indriya-samvara-sila. As nivarana dhammas are away, the bhavana with upacara samadhi is very pure. All cittas that arise in him are pure and sinless. Both upacara samadhi and appana samadhi are known as cittavisuddhi or purification of consciousness. Because the cittas at that time is totally free of nivarana dhamma which definitely hinder magga nana not to arise. Through vipassana he starts to see realities or dhamma that is ultimate realities or paramattha dhamma. When he breathes in, he knows the whole breath and when out he knows the whole breath. He is not thinking any sensuous matter but attending at realities. When breath comes in he knows it comes and knows the sensation. The sensation is rupa and knowledge of that sensation is nama. He knows them separately. Again he realizes that these rupa dhamma and nama dhamma do not arise without causes. He clearly sees conditional things why rupa has to arise and why nama has to arise. He sees that those nama and rupa just pass away at each moment. They are disappearing at a tremendous rate. He knows these dhamma arising and passing away and later he just sees passing away. Shockingly they are disappearing all the time and they are not long lasting and they are frightening. Such frightening things are not to attach and they are to be disregarded and blameworthy. He becomes tired of such impermanent things disappearing at a tremendous rate. He wants to be liberated from such boring things. So he particularly re-orientates to vipassana object. And finally he is able to view balancely on dhamma. Before these happen he started to realize dhamma with their pertinent characteritics and he is free of any wrong view and his views are purified by vipassana. As he has the right view he no more has any doubt on the past, the present, the future, triplegem, the practice, and dependent origination. He is free of any doubt. He has purification of doubt. Before arising of above vipassana nana he finds that there are radiant light, intense joy, supreme calm, ultra confidence, extreme effort, super-ease, clear wisdom, uninterrupted mindfulness, super- balance and extremely fine likeness on vipassana. But at a time he overcomes these 10 upakkilesas and he knows that these are not the right way and he does not follow any of these 10 and instead he steadfastly practise vipassana at three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. After overcoming these things, the above stated milestones are passed one after another and now he is quite ready to rocket up to magga nana. At a time he passes into numerous bhavanga cittas and then he arises from bhavanaga cittas with the first vithi citta called mano- dvara-avajjana citta or mind-door-adverting consciousness. AFter that as he is well ripen for arising of sotapatti magga nana there arise magga vithi vara. Magga vithi vara is like the following codes. BBBBB...BBBM,1.P,2.U,3.A,4.G,5.Sm,6.Sp,7.Sp,BB for mandha puggala or BBBBB...BBBM,1.U,2.A,3.G,4.Sm,5.Sp,6.Sp,7.Sp,BB for tikkha puggala. Mandha means ordinary and tikkha means highly intelligent. B = bhavanga citta M = manodvaravajjana P = parikamma mahakusala citta U = upacara mahakusala citta A = anuloma mahakusala citta G = gotrabhu mahakusala lineage-chaning citta Sm= sotapatti magga citta Sp= sotapatti phala citta There are 7 javana cittas. PUAGSmSpSp or UAGSmSpSpSp. Normally there are 7 successive javana cittas and they all are the same. The 1st javana citta conditions the 2nd and 2nd to 3rd and this happen till 7th. This is called asevana paccaya. But here sotapatti magga citta do not condition sotapatti phala citta with asevana paccaya. But with vipaka paccaya, anantara paccaya, samanantara paccaya, natthi paccaya, vigata paccaya etc. So do sotapatti phala cittas. But former cittas like parikamma mahakusala citta, upacara mahakusala citta, anuloma mahakusala citta and gotrabhu mahakusala citta do condition their following citta with asevana paccaya or repeatition condition. Just before arising of sotapatti magga citta there is the right path and that is patipadananadassana visuddhi and arising of sotapatti magga citta is nanadassana visuddhi. Because sotapatti magga citta sees nibbana as its object and the object is so pure and uncomparable to any other object. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40845 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 8:56pm Subject: Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Friends Howard and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > Howard, your remark about having difficulty to understand the rupas > > nutrition and life faculty made me reflect a little more. I do not know > > whether you find this meaningful. > > When we compare a corpse and a living body there is something in a living > > body not found in a corpse. That is life faculty. > > > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > Not as far as I'm concerned. There are many things missing in a > corpse, most especially functioning of various sorts. There is no blood circulation, > no breathing, no heart beat, no brain function, no renewing of heat, no > replacement of tissue, etc Life faculty, as far as I know, is not something to be > found even in a living body. > ---------------------------------------- I agree with Nina that there is a rupa, directly observable, which corresponds to the `life faculty' Nina is describing (with my little knowledge of Abhidhamma). I think that this rupa is only observed through the mind door, is that correct? (I think that much confusion arises because of the way Nina describes rupas. In my opinion, Nina describes rupas in a way which makes them seem like `entities'. To my understanding, a rupa is simply something experienced, not something which exists without an observer.) I speak from personal experience because when my sister died, and I went to the hospital and entered the room where they had her dead body, I knew that she was dead without even having to look at her or touch her. Why? Well, it's hard to describe, but it was because it was like she wasn't in the room. Sure, I could see her body, and she looked like she was sleeping, but I couldn't "feel" any life faculty coming from her—in my mind. I had spent many years growing up with her, and I knew intimately the types of `vibes' she sends out, and there weren't any of those vibes. The life faculty was gone. I read something similar to this in a description of when a friend of Janis Joplin entered the hotel room where she died. He wrote that he entered the room and it felt like no one was in the room. When the spotted the legs of Janis Joplin on the other side of the bed, he instantly knew she was dead. He didn't think she was sleeping or have to check her heart beat, when you are really close to someone you know when they are dead. I think that that is the life faculty Nina is describing. Metta, James ps. Like most Abhidhamma matters, I don't know what this subject has to do with suffering and the ending of suffering, but I had a few minutes this morning so I thought I would respond. Bad boy that I am, entertaining my personal craving for entertainment! ;-)). 40846 From: Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 9:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] flashbacks and guilt Hi Antony, When I am plagued with a recuring complex mental drama I usually just recognize it as such and let it play itself out. Also sometimes I notice that a painful bodily feeling accompanies this drama. Recognizing that the feeling is just a feeling somewhat dissociates the feeling from the drama. For me it is best to keep things as simple as possible and not get too analytical or tell oneself stories about memory or contact. Larry 40847 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 11:04pm Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 94- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (f) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** Since kusala kamma and akusala kamma are capable of producing rebirth-consciousness, they are a link in the ‘Dependant Origination’ (paìiccasamuppåda, the conditional origination of phenomena). The doctrine of the ‘Dependant Origination’ explains the conditions for the continuation of the cycle of birth and death by way of twelve links, starting from ignorance (avijjå). Ignorance is mentioned as the first link. It is because of not knowing realities as they are, that we have to be born and that we have to suffer old age, sickness and death. The eradication of ignorance is the end of the cycle and thus the end of dukkha. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40848 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jan 9, 2005 11:32pm Subject: Re: Rob M. Hi Larry, I was in Sydney at the time. There was no impact on me or anybody that I know directly. The outpouring of compassion that I am witnessing is unbelievable. There is a steady stream of lorries leaving the Buddhist temple where I teach, but the complex is still full of donated water / medicines / clothes / etc.. I have been so incredibly busy that I haven't signed on to DSG for three weeks. Imagine my delight today when I noticed that the description had been updated to focus on dhammas with 'realities' in quotation marks! Wow!! :-) It will be one to two more weeks before I have a chance to re-engage myself with DSG. I look forward to chatting with old friends again! Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > > Has anyone heard from Rob M? I hope he didn't get swept away in the > tsunami. > > Larry 40849 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi AndrewL (& RobK), I’m going to pick out any questions you raised in your post #40596 which I haven’t addressed. Apologies for the delay. Thank you for all your other comments which I’ve noted with interest. --- Andrew Levin wrote: > OK, but to clear up, the cittas are always located in the mind, right? > Or is it on different sense-bases? …. S: Back to the location issue. When people ask as you do here, invariably there is an idea of cittas (and cetasikas) being in a place or location and I don’t think we can talk about namas being ‘in or on any place’. RobK picked me up on this and it’s true as he says that we can talk about cittas arising at a base such as eye-base or heart-base, but what this really means, as I understand it, is that all cittas in the sensuous realm arise dependent on a base (vatthu), a rupa, in order to experience an object Put simply, the citta which sees can only arise when certain conditions are in place. When we are sleeping, there is no citta which sees. However, when a visible object arises and ‘impacts’ on eye-base (or eye-sense if you prefer), seeing consciousness can arise. Similarly, bhavanga cittas ,mind-door cittas or other cittas in the sense-door process other than seeing, hearing etc are dependent on heart-base to arise. We can say they arise at the heart-base, but the meaning is that the rupa which is heart-base (or in the first example, eye-base) is an essential condition for them to arise. If we think cittas are in or on a base, it can be misleading if it’s taken literally. Usually in the texts, we read something like this: Cmy to Abhidammattha Sangaha: “Consciousness in the eye, being dependent upon it [i.e the eye], is eye-consciousness. Thus it is said that ‘it has the characteristic of discriminating visible forms in dependence upon the eye.’ “ …. S:I think it helps to understand all dhammas as elements, arising dependent on their own conditions. Namas depend on rupas to arise (as well as other namas) but the support or basis is just that, not something they are physically attached to or in. Sammohavinodani transl 1759 “Likewise the eye is the eye element, the visible datum is the visible-datum element; the seeing is the eye-consciousness element; the states associated therewith beginning with feeling are the mental-datum element. In this way ‘looking towards and looking away’ is stated in terms of these four elements. Herein, what single person looks towards, what person looks away? “Likewise the eye is support condition; the visible datum is object condition; adverting is proximity… (and other conditions); light is decisive-support condition; feeling, etc are conascence and other conditions. Thus is ‘looking towards and looking away’ stated in terms of these conditions. Herein, what single person looks towards, what person looks away? “Thus should ‘clear comprehension through non-delusion’ be understood here as reviewing the aggregates, the bases, the elements and the conditions.” …. S:Later at 2035 in the same text, another relevant section: “…the basis of eye-consciousnes is one; its object another; another, those of ear-consciousness, etc. Eye-consciousness does not arise making any among ear sensitivity, etc its basis nor any among sounds, etc its object, even from aeon to aeon; it arises making only eye sensitivity its basis and visible data its object. Thus its basis, its door and its object are fixed; it does not transfer to another basis or door or object. It arises only with a fixed basis, a fixed door and a fixed object. So also with ear-consciousness, etc.” ….. A:> Is consciousness there too? … S: Consciousness is citta. There is a citta or consciousness arising at every moment. So when it is body-consciousness, experiencing heat/cold or another rupa, body-sense (which as I said is ‘all over the body’) is the base or support for this citta. We can say it arises at the body-sense or experiences the rupa through the body-door, but remember again, that these are different elements arising dependent on their own conditions. Again to be very accurate, in the Patthana, we read that ‘eye-base is related to eye-consciousness element and its associated states by dependence condition’ and so on.’ The same applies to other bases and cittas which as I’ve said, cannot arise without dependence on a base, even in deep sleep when only bhavanga cittas arise. ... > Weird, I thought I've seen consciousness, and on a Buddhist community > forum I visit, one of the top important posts is "Does anything exist > other than consciousness?" So it appears other people have seen it > too. …. S: Seeing consciousness can only ever see visible object. I tried to find the post RobK was referring to of mine, but this is the only one that came up when I searched for my name and ‘location’. The following may be relevant for you here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35637 >S: I’d like to add a little more on this interesting topic. Larry just quoted from Vism, Ch. XIV “96. Herein, (34) 'eye-consciousness' has the characteristic of being supported by the eye and cognizing visible data.” <....> “35)-(38) 'Ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness' [respectively] have the characteristic of being supported by the ear, etc., and cognizing sounds, and so on. “ In other words, just as there cannot be eye-consciousness without the eye or the particular rupa of eye-base, so too there cannot be body-consciousness at any part of the body without the rupa of body-base at that location.< …. A:> OK. Best to know ultimate realities then, right? … S: Yes. If we don’t clearly understand the distinction between namas and rupas and if we confuse say seeing itself with the pasada rupa of eye-sense or don’t appreciate that it’s conditioned by the impingement of visible object on that eye-sense, we will always have some strange ideas about what is experienced and what experiences. This is why we need to really understand what is the meaning of terms like vatthu (base), arammana (object) and citta (consciousness). The Abhidhamma and all the details we read about are just about these presently arising dhammas. When there is awareness of seeing consciousness, there is no idea about location, about eye-base or whether anything else exists. It's just the nama which experiences. The same when visible object is known - it's perfectly clear than nothing else can be seen and there's no confusion with eye-base or seeing. It's just the rupa which appears at that moment. ... > It explains that mindfulness is to be cultivated, developed, and > enlarged, especially a factor of enlightenment, and that mindfulness > of certain nama and rupa (such as four elements) will see craving and > clinging wane. Mindfulness is the objective of the Four Foundations > of _Mindfulness_ :0) … S: Also understanding with detachment from the elements , without clinging or expectation of what will arise now or in future. …. > Thanks Sarah, > For being unbelievably patient with me as always, > A.L. … S: Not at all. Writing to friends like you is a kind of meditation for me as I think Nina has mentioned too. I always enjoy your comments and questions a lot and find them very helpful. Thx also for sharing your discussions with Kel and others here with us. A supportive community can help provide all sorts of assistance in our understanding of Dhamma, I find. I’ll be glad for any further comments you have. Metta, Sarah ======== 40850 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:55am Subject: Theravadan Texts to own -was ([dsg] Re: Idle chatter) S:AndrewL sent the following message below to the owner account - as it's addressed to all, I assume it was intended for the list as usual. ==================================================================== Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 18:24:24 -0000 From: "isijolayomi" Add to Address Book --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Andrew L, > [snip] As I mentioned, the extract was from the English translation of > the Atthasalini, which is the commentary to the Dhammasangani, the first > Text of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. (Phil also gave a quote from it recently > #40606). It's full of good detail, but unfortunately the English > translation doesn't give any Pali terms. > > =========================== Hi all, Recently I posted asking for recommendation on books one could own - this post has me wondering - in addition to the Vism. and CMA (both of which I have) are there other commentaries or sub-commentaries especially worth having (not too high on the price scale)? Whether it's clarification of the Nikayas or the Abhidharma Pitaka, if it's worthwhile, I make take to buying it. Looking for more technical material to study than practise-oriented material at this point. Thanks, Andrew Levin 40851 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:14am Subject: Re: Theravadan Texts to own -was ([dsg] Re: Idle chatter) Hi AndrewL, I'll just give a few brief comments and hope others will add their recommendations: > Recently I posted asking for recommendation on books one could own - > this post has me wondering - in addition to the Vism. and CMA (both > of which I have) are there other commentaries or sub-commentaries > especially worth having (not too high on the price scale)? Whether > it's clarification of the Nikayas or the Abhidharma Pitaka, if it's > worthwhile, I make take to buying it. Looking for more technical > material to study than practise-oriented material at this point. .... S: 1. very inexpensive if you can get them and very helpful indeed are B.Bodhi's full translations of a few suttas with commentaries and sub-commentaries. These include the Brahmajala Sutta (All Embracing Net of Views), Samannaphala Sutta (Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship),Mulapariyaya Sutta (Root of Existence), Mahanidana Sutta (Great Discourse on Causation). They were all published by BPS originally. Lots of great detail 2. There's a recent translation of the Maha-Parinibbana Sutta (The Buddha's Last Days) and commentaries which has a lot of good content from PTS. It'll cost more than the BPS ones, but is a slim volume and good quality. 3. Getting pricier, is the Atthasalini transl (The Expositor)from PTS and the best (and most expensive) Abhid commentary translation of all, Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion). these are the commentaries to the first two books of the Abhidhamma and are more useful than the Abhid texts themselves imho. 4. As you're using CMA a lot these days, I'd recommend the commentary to it which keeps being mentioned here: Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma and Exposition of the topics of Abhidhamma. Maybe i'd recommend this for you above all the others as you're v.serious about the Abhidhamma and it goes well with CMA. (When we met Ken O, he was reading it cover to cover). You'd have to check the price - it would be in the medium category here. I believe Pariyatti also sells PTS books. If you're thinking of ordering several over the next few years, it's maybe worth becoming a PTS member and getting the discount. Of course, there's also shipping/air costs to consider. Metta, Sarah ====== 40852 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] flashbacks and guilt Dear Antony, I always like Larry's sympathetic and sensible comments when friends have difficulties. I'm also very glad to see that you've been finding the Abhidhamma so helpful at these times. A little more: --- Antony Woods wrote: > > Dear Sarah and Group, > > In the last week or so I have been using some Abhidhamma to deal with > flashbacks and guilt. I note that all feelings (vedana) are conditioned > by > contact (phassa) which is for example the mental event where the visible > > object, the eye-organ and the eye-consciousness arise. > > How does this apply to flashbacks (horrible memories of being a > perpetrator > of cruelty) and guilt? > > Are flashbacks mind-objects or do I note them as “seeing, seeing”? …. S: Flashbacks are mind-door concepts. It seems like they are visual images perhaps, but the memories and thinking are ‘triggered off’ and ‘dwell’ on these particular stories or images, inthis case with dosa. It’s like a nightmare which seems so real at the time, but is really just mind-door activity conditioned by our defilements. The only thing that will really help (and when I say ‘only’ I don’t wish to minimize the great help and relief it will bring) is the development of understanding or panna. Even realizing it’s just a kind of thinking at these times and that the stories or images are of no use whatsoever can help a lot. Thinking and guilt are just conditioned dhammas, namas, that arise and fall away immediately. They are not yours, Antony, or anyone else’s and there can be awareness of them when they arise instead of getting lost in the stories or images at these times. Whether they are images or concepts about past events that really happened or not makes no difference. What has happened (including any cruelty or past kilesa (defilements) of ours is gone completely. Just as there’s no use at all in craving or clinging to past experiences, so there is no use in dwelling and having aversion and distress about what has gone. Personally, I’ve found that the little Abhidhamma understanding I have has made a really tremendous difference in terms of not clinging on to past experiences in this or other ways. When I was younger, I used to dwell on bad dreams or harsh words spoken by others, even things I’d done wrong and so on, but this seldom happens now – partly because of a little more understanding of anatta which leads to less clinging to self and ‘my important experiences’! When one really appreciates there is only the present dhamma appearing which can ever be known, one has less and less interest or concern about what is past or in the future, just as we read about in the suttas. Life becomes a lot easier, lighter or simpler as Larry put it. “They do not sorrow over the past, they do not hanker over the future” etc (Devatasamyutta 1:10). It’s true that if there had been no seeing, no hearing and no attaching or being repelled from these experiences, there’d be no proliferating and aversion about them now. The seeing is real, the thinking is real, but the images and concepts are purely imagined. Let them go. …. > > I think I read in Nyanaponika’s “Abhidhamma Studies” that memories are > perceptions (sanna). > > Does this mean that memories are perceptions occurring in the present > moment > rather than the reading off a “hard disk” of a record of what happened > in > the past? …. S: The sanna (memory) now which ‘marks’ the concept or story is present, conditioned by all those past memories. This is the meaning of ‘accumulated’ by decisive support condition which ‘determines’ the present memory. This is why we don’t wish to add to that pile or heap of anusaya (latent tendency) for such unwholesome thoughts and memories to keep accumulating in the future. It’s the moments of satipatthana which help work towards breaking the cycle. Not self at all. Let me know if this makes sense and I’d be glad to continue the thread. Metta, Sarah ====== 40853 From: Mg Mg Than Htike Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:49am Subject: an invitation Hi friends I would like to invite you all to kindly visit my web site for Theravada Buddhism at _ http://uk.geocities.com/mmthanhtike/ . As of now, I'm just starting to build it. I welcome all suggestions from visitors to my web-site. I also welcome any friends, who have a good experience in building a personal web-site, to share with me thier good opinions about building such a web-site. And I am collecting good comprehensive English translations of Buddha's teachings to put up on my site for all visitors to view/study. If you have such collections and would like to contribute/ share them, please send them to me; I'll be very grateful. And I'm also collecting interesting Buddhism web-ste links; and also collecting pictures of Buddha images and pagodas. Thank you all, mmth 40854 From: Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Hi, James - In a message dated 1/9/05 11:57:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > I speak from personal experience because when my sister died, and I > went to the hospital and entered the room where they had her dead > body, I knew that she was dead without even having to look at her or > touch her. Why? Well, it's hard to describe, but it was because it > was like she wasn't in the room. Sure, I could see her body, and > she looked like she was sleeping, but I couldn't "feel" any life > faculty coming from her—in my mind. I had spent many years growing > up with her, and I knew intimately the types of `vibes' she sends > out, and there weren't any of those vibes. The life faculty was > gone. > ====================== However long ago this was, James, I'm very sorry for your lost. With regard to what you had previously detected and was then no longer detectable: I don't doubt that this was precisely your experience. What it may well have been was her mental function [awareness, thought processes, feelings, emotions, etc - things all detectable by a sensitive or even by a non-sensitive with a close psychic tie to the person] which, after death, is no longer present. You are assuming that it was "physical life faculty". Perhaps. Perhaps not. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40855 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 5:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Dear Htoo, Tep & All, A good discussion. --- htootintnaing wrote: > Tep wrote: > > Hi, Htoo - > > I appreciate reading your reply to a previous question about habit or > vasana. .... The Udana ch 3, 6, Pilinda, is the one about the bhikkhu who’d refer to others as outcastes and seemed to have a lot of hatred. I discussed it before with Herman giving the notes below from the commentary which touches on the question of accumulated tendencies and vasana which you’re discussing and maybe of use. Perhaps we can say that vasana is a concept referring to many various dhammas that form the disposition or conduct, as it says here, conditioned by past kilesa. Conversely, a terrorist may speak very sweetly, conditioned by past wholesome states and past good kamma. Metta, Sarah ..... Herman: > As to the question of following precepts, the Udana provides a very > counter-intuitive example. Udana 3.6 tells of a monk who was in the > habit of reviling other monks and calling them outcasts. This was > brought to the attention of the Buddha who found no fault in the > bahaviour, but exclaimed > > "From whom no deceit or pride proceeds, > In whom avarice is annihilated, > Who has got rid of the notion 'this is mine', > Who is passionless and has put away wrath, > Who is freed from all cares, > That Bhikkhu is a Brahmana and a Samana." .... S:The commentary adds lots of extra detail. ‘A good many monks: many monks; when they saw the elder treating them in that way, they thought that that elder seemed to be one bearing hatred in that he treated them thus, not knowing that, though already an arahant, he made such proclamations on account of impressions (S: vasana??) not abandoned...’ The Buddha said: “This one treats (the monks) in that way owing to former habitual practice on his part; his harsh speech is not intentional”. And later, “Monks, it is not as one bearing hatred, with hatred in his heart, with a heart polluted by hatred, by ill will, that this Vaccha treats the monks to talk (reserved) for outcastes; his ill will has been completely rooted out by the path itself. He says “For (the monk) Vacha, monks” and so on, thus indicating that the reason for his treating (them) in that way, despite the fact that he is not bearing hatred, stems from former births” Also, “But what is this that is known as impressions? They say that that which, even in the continuity of one in whom the defilements are wanting, is the mere capacity, built up by defilements cultivated from time without beginning, to constitute the root-cause of conduct similar to conduct on the part of those in whom the defilements have not been abandoned, is a disposition of such a kind. “ The commentary continues to add that the only exception to this rule is the Buddha himself, in whose case the continuity of habitual tendencies from previous defilements disappear, ‘due to which the Tathagata is alone one whose knowledge and vision are without obstruction.’ .... 40856 From: abhidhammika Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:34am Subject: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Dear Howard, Tep, Nina, Mike N, Ken O, Jon, Sarah, Chris F, Bob K, Kel and all How are you? In one of the previous posts, Howard wrote: "I consider this to be a cart-before-the-horse formulation, Suan. I see the Abhidhamma as a codification of the teachings in the suttas." In response to the above statement, I wrote the following in my previous post: "That type of chronologizing abhidhamma should be made only by uninformed and speculative academics such as experts in Hermeneutics. The expression "speculative academics" here refers to those who are neither followers of Gotama nor practitioners of his teachings." In reply, Howard wrote: "That is your claim. I see no justification for it. In any case, there are many "academics" who are serious and devoted followers of the Dhamma who view Abhidhamma as a later development." This post begins with the following. It is always good to know that there are many academics who are serious and devoted followers of the Dhamma. But, those who view Abhidhamma as a later development are SPECULATIVE "academics" and not genuine followers of Gotama the Buddha and, as such, are not the genuine practitioners of his teachings. Do I have to remind a professor of mathematics like yourself that speculative doubting and negative verbalizing about Dhamma and practicing of Dhamma cancel out each other? Speculative doubting and negative verbalizing implies lack of saddhaa (confidence and trust) and destroys motivation (cetanaa) for practice. The serious followers of Gotama the Buddha and genuine practitioners of his teachings have abandoned indulgence in speculative negative verbalizing about Pali Tipitaka, (I mean Pali TI-PITAKA, consisting of Abhidhamma as the Third Pitaka). Instead of engaging in speculative negative criticism and exclusion of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, the genuine practitioners of Dhamma would certainly learn and try out the teachings of Abhidhamma as best they can according to their capacity. They would be testing and experimenting the abhidhamma teachings to find out if they can really deliver the insight of selfless nature of the ultimate realities (paramattha dhammaa) and the insight of personless state of the natural scheme of things (Lokadhaatu), for which Abhidhamma sets out the explicit goal and foolproof method. Anyone who views Abhidhamma as a later development and doubts its status as the authentic teachings of Gotama the Buddha will not have saddhaa in Abhidhamma. This lack of confidence and trust will remove their motivation for serious learning of Abhiddhama. Because they do not learn Abhidhamma seriously, they will lack adequate information about Abhidhamma. Because they are without information, they become ignorant and uninformed. As they are ignorant and uninformed, they continue indulgence in speculative negative verbalizing about Abhidhamma. In short, the uninformed and speculative academics and scholars, be they monks or lay people, practice the wrong speech (micchaa vaacaa). This leads them further away from practicing correctly the teachings of Gotama the Buddha. We can recast the above paragraph in the style of Paticcasamuppaada as follows. Asaddaa paccayaa acetanaa, acetanaa paccayaa anugga.nhanam, anugga.nhana paccayaa assutadhammaa, assutadhamma paccayaa micchaa di.t.thi, micchaadi.t.thi paccayaa micchaavaacaaa, micchaavaacaa paccayaaa micchaakammanto. Dependent on lack of confidence, lack of motivation happens. Dependent on lack of motivation, non-learning happens. Dependent on non-learning, being uninformed and ignorance of Dhamma happen. Dependent on ignorance of Dhamma, the wrong view happends. Dependent on the wrong view, the wrong speech happens. Dependent on the wrong speech, the wrong practice happens. Viewing Abhidhamma as a later development is the wrong view. Here the wrong view means the view that is not conducive to genuine learning, testing, experimenting, insight and realizing liberation. Declaring and spreading the wrong view is the wrong speech and the wrong practice. In other words, the uninformed and negatively speculative scholars and academics who view Abhidhamma as a later development cannot be doing the Right Speech (Sammaa Vaacaa) and the Right Action (Sammaa Kammanto). They cannot be genuine followers of Gotama the Buddha and practitioners of his teachings. Therefore, I uphold and justify the following statement I made previously. "That type of chronologizing abhidhamma should be made only by uninformed and speculative academics such as experts in Hermeneutics. The expression "speculative academics" here refers to those who are neither followers of Gotama nor practitioners of his teachings." To Be Continued... With regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Suan - > > In a message dated 12/31/04 10:05:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, > suanluzaw@b... writes: > > > Dear Howard, Nina, Sarah, Chris F, Mike, Andrew L, Ken O and all > > > > How are you? And Happy New Year! > > > > > Happy New Year To All! > > > > With regards, > > > > Suan > > > ======================= Happy New Year to you, Suan! With metta, Howard 40857 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Hi Howard, H: Thank you for the kind words, Nina. Unfortunately you will be less pleased with what I have to say in my just-sent reply to your post involving balance, nausea, life force and nutriment! Ah, well, I can't win them all!! ;-)) N: You made me laugh. I try again. I am glad you mention all this. op 10-01-2005 00:05 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> Bodysense itself is all over the body, it is the bodydoor through which can >> be experienced: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion, pressure. Nothing >> more than that. >> > ----------------------------------- > Howard: > Yes, those are the loci for bodysense. N: to be more precise: hardness etc. are the objects experienced through the doorway which is the rupa bodysense, by the vipaakacitta that is body-consciousness. > Howard: > Imbalance, dizziness, and nausea are all bodily sensations. Each is a > rupa or sequence of body-door rupas. They aren't just stories. They can be > and are directly experienced. > ---------------------------------- N: We have to be more precise. Nausea, what is it? what is experienced through the bodysense? It may be some pressure or oscillation, and that is the element of wind or motion. Remember Htoo: he explained the experience of a painful wound as the experience of some moments of heat and also of hardness, alternately. We are self centered and think of my pain, my nausea, but let us analyse it, not naming it. Then we learn that they are only impersonal elements arising because of conditions and then gone. This must lead to detachment from I, mine. Nausea, dizziness, all conventional terms to denote a situation with 'me' in the center of it all. If there is direct awareness of just the three Great Elements, one characteristic at a time, then there is no need to think of my discomfort. Is that not a gain? H: There are many things missing in a > corpse, most especially functioning of various sorts. There is no blood > circulation, > no breathing, no heart beat, no brain function, no renewing of heat, no > replacement of tissue, etc Life faculty, as far as I know, is not something to > be > found even in a living body. > ---------------------------------------- N: You describe a situation, using medical terms. They are all true in conventional sense. But let us think of the real cause of life and death. Cause and result, kamma and vipaka. why is there no renewal of heat, etc.? There were conditions. The life faculty was cut off. Kamma did not produce any more bhavanga-cittas, life-continuity, and thus the continuity of the life of that individual was broken off. It was time for the cuti-citta, dying-consciousness. This is succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness of the following life, produced by kamma. It is really helpful to consider that whatever is experienced is only nama and rupa. quote N: Life faculty is together> >> with the rupas of the body that are produced by kamma. > ---------------------------------------- > Howard: > I understand that you believe that, Nina. But I have no idea why. N: I think that you find it acceptable that kamma produces birth. Kamma produces rebirth-consciousness and also some rupas at the first moment of our life. In the course of life we experience pleasant objects and unpleasant objects through the sense-doors, that is seeing etc, which can be a pleasant experience or an unpleasant experience. Such experiences are the results of kamma in the course of life. And also the rupas which are the sense-doors are produced by kamma throughout life, so that desirable and undesirable objects can be experienced. Now this answers your remark above that you had no idea why Life faculty is together with the rupas of the body that are produced by kamma. Life faculty is not in a tree, here are only rupas produced by heat. > -------------------------------------- quote: Thus, together with> >> eyesense, etc. The senses are produced by kamma, (snipped). > A corpse does not have this. It is only in a living body.> >> ----------------------------------- > Howard: > As far as I know, neither do I. > ------------------------------------ > Ledi Sayadaw uses some similes (on p. 16), under rupas. snipped. >> > ------------------------------------------ > Howard: > It seems to me that all this business is just primitive biology. > (Sorry) N: I am glad you mention this point. The Abhidhamma does not pretend to teach biology or science, thus, it does not teach a primitive biology either. The Co, in their explanations, and also Ledi Sayadaw, use some notions in this field for teaching purposes. As you also understood: to denote location. The aim, as said before, is helping us to understand that rupas are only ephemeral, impersonal elements. Primitive: Lodewijk said that we have to be very careful with this predicat. Science which seems advanced now will be judged primitive some decads later. Let us cross the barriers of prejudices that exist between nations, about civilisations, religions, colour of the skin. Knowing that there are only citta, cetasika and rupa helps to do away with prejudices. The Buddha taught the truth for all times, for everybody. When I visited Kh Sujin in the beginning, she put down her hand and asked me what I saw. Only pink colour. She said that it does not matter whether it is pink, brown or any other colour. This teaches us that skin colour is not important. The Abhidhamma helps to cure prejudices between nations and between individuals. Citta, cetasika and rupa! Nina. P.S. You have no fear of death. Can you elaborate on this, Howard? How is your Dhamma group doing, what are the subjects? 40858 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Visuddhimagga XIV, 129 and Tiika Hi Larry, op 09-01-2005 19:52 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w... > >quotes Nina: "Saññaa marks the object that is cognized by citta so that it > can be recognized." L: Can you say more about this mark. Is it a sign (nimitta)? N: Yes, in the text the word nimitta is used. In the Tiika of Vis. 130 it is stressed how the carpenters make a sign, nimitta, again and again so that the tree is recognized or remembered. Does this not happen the whole day? Sañña works extremely fast and in an efficient way, no need to think for a long time, 'this is a computer'. L: Also, what > about the object? It seems that often the object of sanna is a > complex experience. Maybe the deer is afraid of the scarecrow because > the farmer threw a stick at the deer. How much of this reasoning is > the work of sanna? N: Many cittas reason and they have many different objects, among them concepts of a complex whole. All these moments are accompanied by sañña. It performs its task at each and every moment. And all experiences are accumulated in the citta. That is why a deer remembers: formerly I was beaten, better be careful now. Tiika Vis. 130 mentions sañña that accompanies pañña and also sañña that accompanies defilements. Citta can experience all kinds of objects, realities or concepts, and sañña accompanying citta perceives the same object. Nina. P.S. I am going away this Wednesday until Saturday, but meanwhile I work on the Pali and take the texts with me. 40859 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: patience, courage and good cheer Dera Connie, op 09-01-2005 22:48 schreef connieparker op connieparker@i...: > The following are some that I thought might interest someone I'd been > talking with about death. > > *** > S: Before becoming Khun Nina, what was there? > N: Another life. > S: Yeah. From the day you were born and then you had everything from > childhood up to now, if it's time to lose, it's exactly the same like from > before when you were not born as Khun Nina, so you did not lose anything > at all. > It is vipaka citta and cetasika that are reborn/conditioned. N: Yes, I found it helpful, and I used it for my India talk. We find this life so important, but it is only one life out of the long, long cycle of birth and death. But the right Path eventually leads to the end. > S: When we're thinking, it's not the dying consciousness. N: This helps people who have fear of death. The cuti-citta can be shortly after seeing now, but at the moment of cuti-citta the object is the same as all bhavanga-cittas of the life that is going to end. It is the same as being fat asleep, no object impinging. Thus, at that moment we do not even know that we are dying. No fear. > S: Everything goes away, all the time. > 'My worry' is only nama. N: It is conditioned and falls away immediately. Why do we find it so important? C: Last I looked, the mp3's were still at: www.dhammastudygroup.org N: Also at dhammahome, the English part at the right side. One has to push the bar at the bottom, and I only just found out! Kom is putting up at my India Pilgrimage. Nina. 40860 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Dear friend James, thanks for your sympathetic mail. I was really impressed the way you described seeing the body of your sister. op 10-01-2005 05:56 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > I agree with Nina that there is a rupa, directly observable, which > corresponds to the `life faculty' Nina is describing (with my little > knowledge of Abhidhamma). I think that this rupa is only observed > through the mind door, is that correct? N: yes, correct. It cannot be known through touch. (I think that much confusion > arises because of the way Nina describes rupas. In my opinion, Nina > describes rupas in a way which makes them seem like `entities'. To > my understanding, a rupa is simply something experienced, not > something which exists without an observer.) N: rupas: ephemeral, impersonal elements. I would not call that entities. They are real, but fall away, susceptible to breaking up. Phenomenologists believe that they do not exist when not experienced, but here I think differently. I understand though, you and Howard's view. J: ps. Like most Abhidhamma matters, I don't know what this subject has > to do with suffering and the ending of suffering, N: I tried to explain this to Howard. No stories about nausea, but developing direct understanding of nama and rupa. This must lead to detachment. Nina. 40861 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vasana of the arahat. Dear Tep, op 09-01-2005 20:19 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > I do not follow the suggestion that habits (vasana) "reside" in sankhara > khandha. Because 'avijja paccaya sankhara' as stated by the > Dependent Origination, and avijja no longer "resides" in the Arahat, so > how come vasana still does? > > I think habit is probably a part of the sanna khandha. What do you think? N: Vasana is accumulated in the citta. It is expressed by body or speech, thus the rupas bodily intimation and speech intimation are conditioned by citta, in this case kiriyacitta. I would not say it resides in a specific khandha. citta is always accompanied by cetasikas, sañña included. But I see no specific role of sañña or the other cetasikas. NIna. 40862 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] flashbacks and guilt Hi Larry, I like this post, you touch on the essence. Stories complicate life, how true. Nina. op 10-01-2005 06:54 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > When I am plagued with a recuring complex mental drama I usually just > recognize it as such and let it play itself out. Also sometimes I notice > that a painful bodily feeling accompanies this drama. Recognizing that > the feeling is just a feeling somewhat dissociates the feeling from the > drama. > > For me it is best to keep things as simple as possible and not get too > analytical or tell oneself stories about memory or contact. 40863 From: Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/10/05 10:01:42 AM Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@x... writes: > > Hi Howard, > H: Thank you for the kind words, Nina. Unfortunately you will be less > pleased with what I have to say in my just-sent reply to your post involving > balance, nausea, life force and nutriment! Ah, well, I can't win them all!! > ;-)) > N: You made me laugh. I try again. I am glad you mention all this. > > op 10-01-2005 00:05 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > >>Bodysense itself is all over the body, it is the bodydoor through which > can > >>be experienced: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion, pressure. Nothing > >>more than that. > >> > >----------------------------------- > >Howard: > >Yes, those are the loci for bodysense. > N: to be more precise: hardness etc. are the objects experienced through the > doorway which is the rupa bodysense, by the vipaakacitta that is > body-consciousness. > > >Howard: > >Imbalance, dizziness, and nausea are all bodily sensations. Each is a > >rupa or sequence of body-door rupas. They aren't just stories. They can be > >and are directly experienced. > >---------------------------------- > N: We have to be more precise. Nausea, what is it? what is experienced > through the bodysense? It may be some pressure or oscillation, and that is > the element of wind or motion. > Remember Htoo: he explained the experience of a painful wound as the > experience of some moments of heat and also of hardness, alternately. > We are self centered and think of my pain, my nausea, but let us analyse it, > not naming it. Then we learn that they are only impersonal elements arising > because of conditions and then gone. This must lead to detachment from I, > mine. > Nausea, dizziness, all conventional terms to denote a situation with 'me' in > the center of it all. If there is direct awareness of just the three Great > Elements, one characteristic at a time, then there is no need to think of my > discomfort. Is that not a gain? > ---------------------------------- Howard: I don't disagree with you here, Nina. It was intentional that I used the expression "SEQUENCE of body-door rupas" when I wrote "Imbalance, dizziness, and nausea are all bodily sensations. Each is a rupa or sequence of body-door rupas." I recognize that these phenomena may well be compounds of rupas, and that what are directly observed are not them, but the experiential realities that are their basis. ----------------------------------- > H: There are many things missing in a > >corpse, most especially functioning of various sorts. There is no blood > >circulation, > >no breathing, no heart beat, no brain function, no renewing of heat, no > >replacement of tissue, etc Life faculty, as far as I know, is not something > to > >be > >found even in a living body. > >---------------------------------------- > N: You describe a situation, using medical terms. They are all true in > conventional sense. But let us think of the real cause of life and death. > Cause and result, kamma and vipaka. why is there no renewal of heat, etc.? > There were conditions. The life faculty was cut off. Kamma did not produce > any more bhavanga-cittas, life-continuity, and thus the continuity of the > life of that individual was broken off. It was time for the cuti-citta, > dying-consciousness. This is succeeded by the rebirth-consciousness of the > following life, produced by kamma. It is really helpful to consider that > whatever is experienced is only nama and rupa. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: I am completely accepting of kamma and kammic consequence. The details of these and their operation, however, are very complex and largely unknown to us. The presumption of life faculty, however, is just a presumption. Motion, heat, etc are observed. Life faculty is not, and least not by me. I do not deny the existence of such a proposed phenomenon, but I also find no basis (or need) for presuming it. ----------------------------------------- > > quote N: Life faculty is together> > >>with the rupas of the body that are produced by kamma. > >---------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >I understand that you believe that, Nina. But I have no idea why. > N: I think that you find it acceptable that kamma produces birth. Kamma > produces rebirth-consciousness and also some rupas at the first moment of > our life. In the course of life we experience pleasant objects and > unpleasant objects through the sense-doors, that is seeing etc, which can be > a pleasant experience or an unpleasant experience. Such experiences are the > results of kamma in the course of life. And also the rupas which are the > sense-doors are produced by kamma throughout life, so that desirable and > undesirable objects can be experienced. > -------------------------------------- Howard: Fine. --------------------------------------- > Now this answers your remark above that you had no idea why Life faculty > is > together with the rupas of the body that are produced by kamma. Life faculty > is not in a tree, here are only rupas produced by heat. > ---------------------------------------- Howard: No, I don't consider the foregoing as having answered that. I see life faculty as just a matter of belief. BTW, the idea of plant life being solely a result of heat appears baseless to me. --------------------------------------- > >-------------------------------------- > quote: Thus, together with> > >>eyesense, etc. The senses are produced by kamma, (snipped). > >A corpse does not have this. It is only in a living body.> > >>----------------------------------- > >Howard: > >As far as I know, neither do I. > >------------------------------------ > >Ledi Sayadaw uses some similes (on p. 16), under rupas. snipped. > >> > >------------------------------------------ > >Howard: > >It seems to me that all this business is just primitive biology. > >(Sorry) > N: I am glad you mention this point. The Abhidhamma does not pretend to > teach biology or science, thus, it does not teach a primitive biology > either. The Co, in their explanations, and also Ledi Sayadaw, use some > notions in this field for teaching purposes. As you also understood: to > denote location. The aim, as said before, is helping us to understand that > rupas are only ephemeral, impersonal elements. > Primitive: Lodewijk said that we have to be very careful with this predicat. > Science which seems advanced now will be judged primitive some decads later. > Let us cross the barriers of prejudices that exist between nations, about > civilisations, religions, colour of the skin. > Knowing that there are only citta, cetasika and rupa helps to do away with > prejudices. The Buddha taught the truth for all times, for everybody. > When I visited Kh Sujin in the beginning, she put down her hand and asked me > what I saw. Only pink colour. She said that it does not matter whether it is > pink, brown or any other colour. This teaches us that skin colour is not > important. The Abhidhamma helps to cure prejudices between nations and > between individuals. Citta, cetasika and rupa! > Nina. > P.S. You have no fear of death. Can you elaborate on this, Howard? > ------------------------------------- Howard: There is not much to say, Nina. It is not that there is NO fear of death. There is some. It became radically diminished subsequent to that brief no-sense-of-self experience of mine close to a decade ago. A number of years back, during a period of about a week in which I had good (but false) reason for expecting to die soon, I simply was completely accepting and unafraid. Whenever I turn my mind even now to the realization that at this very moment, in actuality, there is no knowing subject at all, but just an impersonal flow of experiential phenomena, there is very little concern that this experience should radically alter or even cease entirely. --------------------------------------- > How is your Dhamma group doing, what are the subjects? --------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for asking. We've been meeting regularly and having good Dhamma discussions and 45-minute group meditations. The membership is still quite small. We will be working on increasing that. Quite terribly, a young member of the group passed away not long ago - a tragic event. We've discussed a number of topics. The one we spent most time on was dependent origination. That carried us for many meetings. Very soon we will commence an extended study of the writings of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu and comparisons of his positions with those of other teachers and with what is to be found in the Tipitaka itself and in the writings of Buddhaghosa. This project will be quite an undertaking. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 40864 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:19am Subject: Dhamma Thread (227) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among many different vithi varas namely 1.jhana vithi vara, 2.magga vithi vara, 3.abhinna vithi vara, 4.jhana samapatti vithi vara, 5.phala samapatti vithi vara, 6.nirodhasamapatti vithi vara the first two vithi varas have been discussed. In both of them appana arises once. In case of jhana vithi vara the vithi cittas are .. BBB..BBBMPUAGJBBBB Jhana citta arises only once in this initial vithi vara. Likewise in magga vithi vara the vithi cittas are .. BBB..BBBMPUAGSmSpSpBBBB Here sotapatti magga citta arises just once. This magga citta is appana samadhi citta. Here it seems like that cittas run into nibbana and is absorbed. As mahakusala cittas are working well successive vithi varas become more and more mature and at a time pass into bhavanga cittas and as soon as the first vithi citta arises that is manodvaravajjana citta that citta takes the vipassana object and then successively run and rocket to magga citta. Magga cittas are appana cittas. Their resultant cittas phala cittas are also appana cittas. But manodvaravajjana citta, parikamma mahakusala citta, upacara mahakusala citta, anuloma mahakusala citta and gotrabhu mahakusala cittas are not of appana quality. Lineagewise they are all kamavacara cittas. They are kamma cittas. Any magga cittas run in such order and just before magga cittas is gotrabhu citta. This citta who is lineage-changing citta is mahakusala citta. It is makavacara citta. It is not a jhana citta. Unlike jhana cittas kamavacara cittas are not absorptive consciousness. But rupavacara cittas (rupa jhanas)or arupavacara cittas (arupa jhanas) are always absorptive consciousness. They are absorbed into their own object and they will not release that object. As soon as they release they die out. It is crucial to understand magga vithi vara. When magga vithi varas are understood there will not be any controversials at all. That is why I initially classified citta in many different ways. Classwise lokuttara cittas and rupavacara cittas or arupavacara cittas are totally different. But samadhiwise both kinds of citta have appana samadhi. Rupavacara rupa jhana cittas are called rupa jhana appana and arupavacara jhana cittas are called arupa jhana appana while magga cittas are called lokuttara appana cittas. Because magga cittas are absorbed in nibbana. They very clearly and very closely see nibbbana. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40865 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:57am Subject: Dhamma Thread (228) Dear Dhamma Friends, Out of many different vithi varas namely 1.jhana vithi vara, 2.magga vithi vara, 3.abhinna vithi vara, 4.jhana samapatti vithi vara, 5.phala samapatti vithi vara, 6.nirodhasamapatti vithi vara the first two vithi varas have been discussed. The third vithi vara is abhinna vithi vara. Regarding jhanas all rupa jhanas and all arupa jhanas have been discussed in detail while different cittas are being discussed. In another series called 'Jhana Journey' all rupa jhanas and all arupa jhanas are well explained. For abhinna to practise all 4 rupa jhanas and all 4 arupa jhanas should well be mastered. That means they have to be developed at will. This happens through five different exercises called vasi. They are avajjana vasi, samapajjana vasi, adhitthana vasi, votthana vasi and paccavakkhana vasi. After each stage of jhanas have well been exercised through these 5 vasis these jhanas will be able to be develop at will. But be careful that cittas, cetasikas, rupas cannot be created by anyone including our great teacher The Buddha. This is talking from The Dhamma side. Some may argue these statements. As soon as The Buddha thought to reveal yamaka patihara or miracles, this citta sankhara leads arising of successors dhamma one after another. But The Buddha was not creating any dhammas. If this is not clear there might develop some subtle wrong views which are very hard to crack. Once I read someone written that 'The Buddha control rupas with jhana power'. This is not true. But from perspective of communication we can say that jhana cittas can be developed at will. In which way? Through practice. Just momentary attainment of jhanic states does not mean the attainer is expert and has experty in jhana matters. But for proficiency the already achieved jhanas have to be sharpened by practice. Example is avajjana vasi. If I attained jhanas and I was not currently not in jhana, then I had to be in kamavacara javana varas. Then there might arise a thought to develop jhana. As soon as the thought encroaches jhana cittas arise. But there is some delay. This delay is different in different people. But we can practise to reduce this delay by practising avajjana vasi. This vasi advert the mind from kamavaca javana varas to jhana appana javana varas. In case of The Buddha when He was in kamavacara javana varas as soon as the thought of will to develop jhana arises His current kamavacara javana varas stop and passed into 'ONLY' 2 bhavanaga cittas and then mind-door-adverting consciousness or manodvaravajjana citta adverts the mind to jhana appana javana varas. When The Buddha exit or emerged from jhana appana javana vara again only 2 bhavanga cittas intervened and then paccavakkhana javana varas arise. Unlike other arahats our great teacher The Buddha has the fastest speed of going into paccavakkhana javana vara. While other arahats take 7 javana cittas, The Buddha's paccavakkhana javana cittas only take 4 or 5 moments and then He advert to another jhana appana javana varas. The Buddha was so fast in switching on and off in jhanas that even Venerable Mahamoggallana could not follow His footsteps. All Buddhists know that Moggallana Thera's jhana power is the greatest after The Buddha. The Buddha has to be fast because yamaka patihara or miracles do have beneficial effects and to produce these miracle effects, He has to switch on and off different jhanas with different kasinas very quickly. We can see the miracles that The Buddha is in the air (one). His right eye is jetting shower of water (two) and left eye is blowing a great flame(three). His right ear is sparkling with fireworks (four), and His left ear is fountaining with water (five) and many other miracles. Actually The Buddha is successively switching on and off very fastly in different kasina jhanas. But what what we see is continuous phenomena and great miracle. As ultimate realities these do not last long. These miracles are all cittaja rupas. They are jhana abhinna cittaja rupas. For abhinna to practise all jhanas have to be mastered. And all 10 kasina kammatthanas have to be practised up to 4th jhana. That is up to 5th rupakusala jhana level. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40866 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:10am Subject: Thina and Middha are paramattha dhamma Dear Dhamma Friends, Thina and middha are frequently misunderstood. This is because the meaning is not discerned and the learners just use translated simple English and they do not explore the real meaning. Thina and middha are not sleepiness. Thina and middha can well arise even when we are very alert. So it is not enough just to view them as sloth and torpor even though they carry some meaningful idea on what thina and middha mean. Thina and middha are cetasika dhamma. They are paramattha dhamma. They are not pannatti dhamma. Thina and middha are not concept. They are realities. People believe that they know thina and middha very well and they assume thina and middha as 'laziness' 'sluggishness' 'sleepiness' etc etc. But in actual term thina and middha are subtle dhamma and they can be sensed by manayatana when they themselves serve as dhammayatana. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40867 From: Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi Suan No offense, but what you write here has all the earmarks of Nazi propaganda. My way or the highway? Not at all along the lines of "test it for yourself and find your own conclusions" which I think is much more the Buddha's approach. Religious zeal can be a very dangerous thing if used unwisely. I can't think of one good reason why the Abhidhamma Pitaka would be considered the authentic teachings of the Buddha "himself." But I can think of a lot of reasons of why it wouldn't be. And yet, I have no problems studying it or appreciating it. And you have no clue as to what my practice is or how motivated it is. I can't even claim that all of the Four Great Nikayas are for sure the Buddha's own teaching. But due to stylistic and content consistency and the difficulty of forging this type of consistency, I'm confident enough that the vast majority of them represent what he taught well. I feel very little of the 5th Nikaya is his actual teaching. TRUTH is the hallmark of an aspiring Buddhist or truth investigator. Claiming something to be true that, in fact, is not known to be true, is a dangerous and untruthful approach IMO. How many Christians will look you in the face and say that they KNOW that God exists or that Jesus came here to save them? A lot! And yet, they don't really know it. I don't see that what is written down below is any different from that. TG In a message dated 1/10/2005 6:34:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: But, those who view Abhidhamma as a later development are SPECULATIVE "academics" and not genuine followers of Gotama the Buddha and, as such, are not the genuine practitioners of his teachings. Do I have to remind a professor of mathematics like yourself that speculative doubting and negative verbalizing about Dhamma and practicing of Dhamma cancel out each other? Speculative doubting and negative verbalizing implies lack of saddhaa (confidence and trust) and destroys motivation (cetanaa) for practice. The serious followers of Gotama the Buddha and genuine practitioners of his teachings have abandoned indulgence in speculative negative verbalizing about Pali Tipitaka, (I mean Pali TI-PITAKA, consisting of Abhidhamma as the Third Pitaka). Instead of engaging in speculative negative criticism and exclusion of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, the genuine practitioners of Dhamma would certainly learn and try out the teachings of Abhidhamma as best they can according to their capacity. They would be testing and experimenting the abhidhamma teachings to find out if they can really deliver the insight of selfless nature of the ultimate realities (paramattha dhammaa) and the insight of personless state of the natural scheme of things (Lokadhaatu), for which Abhidhamma sets out the explicit goal and foolproof method. Anyone who views Abhidhamma as a later development and doubts its status as the authentic teachings of Gotama the Buddha will not have saddhaa in Abhidhamma. This lack of confidence and trust will remove their motivation for serious learning of Abhiddhama. Because they do not learn Abhidhamma seriously, they will lack adequate information about Abhidhamma. Because they are without information, they become ignorant and uninformed. As they are ignorant and uninformed, they continue indulgence in speculative negative verbalizing about Abhidhamma. In short, the uninformed and speculative academics and scholars, be they monks or lay people, practice the wrong speech (micchaa vaacaa). This leads them further away from practicing correctly the teachings of Gotama the Buddha. 40868 From: jwromeijn Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:47am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Suan Some words to you without Pali The way you talk about professors is not the 'right speech' of the Noble Eightfold path It is full of hatred You have your opinion about the status and moment of composition of the Abhidhamma, other respected dsg-members have other opinion and only an individual him/herself can decide if he/she is a buddhist There is more than one way going to enlightenment. Joop 40869 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:57am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Suan wrote: Dear Howard, Tep, Nina, Mike N, Ken O, Jon, Sarah, Chris F, Bob K, Kel and all How are you? In one of the previous posts, Therefore, I uphold and justify the following statement I made previously. "That type of chronologizing abhidhamma should be made only by uninformed and speculative academics such as experts in Hermeneutics. The expression "speculative academics" here refers to those who are neither followers of Gotama nor practitioners of his teachings." To Be Continued... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Suan, I agree. Htoo With regards, Suan 40870 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:12am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Joop wrote: Suan Some words to you without Pali The way you talk about professors is not the 'right speech' of the Noble Eightfold path It is full of hatred You have your opinion about the status and moment of composition of the Abhidhamma, other respected dsg-members have other opinion and only an individual him/herself can decide if he/she is a buddhist There is more than one way going to enlightenment. Joop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I was considering whether it is valid to say .. ''There is more than one way going to enlightnement''. [should have been there 'are' instead of 'is', if someone believes there are many ways] Once a turtle and a fish were frineds. One day the turtle reached ashore and he walked on the shore and landed and enjoyed the dry land. When he met the fish he said, 'friend, there is the land'. Fish: What is that? Turtle: It is a place. Fish: Is it wet like our ocean water? T: No, it is dry. F: Is it cold like our ocean water? T: No it is warm. F: Is it possible to swim in land? T: No. You cannot. But you have to walk on it. F: Can we see things through that land like our ocean water? T: No, you cannot. It is opaque. F: Haa haa haa haa haa haa haa. Turtle, turtle. You are talking non- sense. Your land is not wet, not cold, and we cannot swim in it, and we cannot seee things through it. This is impossible. Actually there is no land at all. This simile is about nibbana. Ariya [turtle] met putthujana [fish] and talked that nibbana and so and so. But puthujana does not believe and finally laughed out loud. When I quoted this simile on nibbana once someone argued that there are many way to reach ashore. There is a single way and it is Noble Eightfold Path made up of 8 parts. Without all these 8 parts no one will achieve nibbana at all however hard they have been trying for millions and millions of year. There are many ways to nibbana is not in line with The Buddha teachings. Htoo Naing 40871 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Friends Howard and Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > However long ago this was, James, I'm very sorry for your lost. Thanks. > With regard to what you had previously detected and was then no longer > detectable: I don't doubt that this was precisely your experience. What it > may well have been was her mental function [awareness, thought processes, > feelings, emotions, etc - things all detectable by a sensitive or even by a > non-sensitive with a close psychic tie to the person] Well, yeah, that is the life faculty, I think. I think of the life faculty as being `synergy'. The energy of the sum total of the parts, everything you mention. Here is a definition from the Internet: Life Faculty is the force of vitality that keeps the other factors in existence in a living being http://my.tbaytel.net/arfh/dhamma/abhi1.html However, Nina in her other post makes the suggestion that life faculty is heat. Huh?? Now, I don't get that at all. which, after death, is no longer > present. You are assuming that it was "physical life faculty". Perhaps. > Perhaps not. > > With metta, > Howard Metta, James 40872 From: Matthew Miller Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:03pm Subject: Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Nina: > Nausea, dizziness, all conventional terms to denote > a situation with 'me' in the center of it all. I don't see how the sensations of "nausea" or "dizziness" are necessarily any more or less tied to stories about Self than, say, "hardness" or "seeing." One could just as easily think "my hardness" or "my seeing." Matthew 40873 From: nina Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Pilgrimage India, 1 b Pilgrimage India, 1 b We visited all the holy places with Acharn Sujin and a large group of friends, Thai and foreign. We went to Lumbini, where the Buddha was born, and each time we are impressed by the pillar erected by King Asoka, 249 B.C. which commemorates: ³Here Sakyåmuní (the sage of the Sakyan clan) was born². This pillar, standing there unshakable through the centuries, symbolizes confidence in the Buddha¹s teachings. It is a vivid reminder of the Buddha¹s birth. If he had not been born and become the Sammåsambuddha we would be ignorant of realities. We would not know about akusala and kusala, about the way to develop understanding of realities. We went to Bodhgaya where the Buddha attained enlightenment, to Saranath where he held his first sermon, and to Kusinåra where he passed finally away. We also visited Såvatthí where the Buddha spent many rainy seasons and Vesålí where Mahåpajåpatí was ordained as the first bhikkhuní. We visited Råjagaha where we climbed the Vultures¹ Peak, and the Bamboo Grove where he pronounced the Patimokkha, the Rules of Discipline for the monks. Here the bhikkhu who accompanied us chanted part of the Patimokkha proclaimed here and explained that therefore the first monastery was actually established there. We circumambulated with candles the Stupa that marked the different places and in Bodhgaya we went around the Bodhi tree, and at all these places we recollected the Buddha¹s great compassion for us. Throughout the years I have visited the holy places many times, but this time I noticed that they had been greatly improved by the Archeological Survey of the Government of India, and that the parks around them were well kept. The atmosphere was very peaceful and inviting to discussing and considering the Dhamma. We had Dhamma discussions in English as well as in Thai. In Bodhgaya we had a Dhamma discussion in Thai near the Bodhi tree, next to the Stupa that marks the cremation place of the great Commentator Buddhaghosa. I paid respect here and I thought with gratefulness of Buddhaghosa who promoted the preservation of the Tipitaka in using the original commentaries that give clear explanations of the texts. Here, Acharn Sujin emphasized that we should not merely think of the words of the texts, but that we should have firm understanding of the characteristics of realities that appear. We should not dwell on the past that has gone already, nor think of the future that has not come yet. There can be awareness and understanding of the dhammas appearing at this moment. **** Nina. 40874 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Dear Sarah, It is very good for me you hammer on this point. op 10-01-2005 09:41 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > S: Back to the location issue. When people ask as you do here, invariably > there is an idea of cittas (and cetasikas) being in a place or location > and I don’t think we can talk about namas being in or on any place’. > > RobK picked me up on this and it’s true as he says that we can talk about > cittas arising at a base such as eye-base or heart-base, but what this > really means, as I understand it, is that all cittas in the sensuous > realm arise dependent on a base (vatthu), a rupa, in order to experience > an object N: We are inclined to think of eyesense when we consider seeing, or are aware of seeing. Good reminder. Seeing is dependent on eyesense. And this you expressed very clearly: And also this, emphasizing the importance of study: < If we don’t clearly understand the distinction between namas and rupas and if we confuse say seeing itself with the pasada rupa of eye-sense or don’t appreciate that it’s conditioned by the impingement of visible object on that eye-sense, we will always have some strange ideas about what is experienced and what experiences. This is why we need to really understand what is the meaning of terms like vatthu (base), arammana (object) and citta (consciousness). The Abhidhamma and all the details we read about are just about these presently arising dhammas.> We have to watch out for strange ideas which are bound to appear, so long as we are not sotapannas. They creep in before we know! Thank you, Nina. 40875 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Dear Tep, I just touch on a few points, adding a little more to what others explained. op 10-01-2005 01:39 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > In your message #40797 (as shown above) you mentioned that "dry > insight" workers (sukkha vipassaka) could attain "enlightenment" > without a jhana as a requisite. In the previous posts you kindly > explained that samadhi could be developed without samatha-bhavana > (e.g. through Buddhanussati). N: this is somewhat different. I spoke about short meditations for all occasions. I did not mean developing anything, developing samatha. There are more like some moments of silent reflection, that is all. It happens by conditions. There is another meditation and that is dhammanussati: considering the dhamma. This we do all the time when studying, listening, talking like now. etc. ...snipped. > > T: I understand that concentration (samadhi) and calm (passaddhi) are > two factors of the 7 factors of awakening (bojjhanga), which are > developed "dependent on seclusion (viveka), dependent on > dispassion(viraga), dependent on cessation(nirodha), resulting in > letting go(patinissagga)" [SN LIV.2]. The seclusion, and anupassana > on dispassion and cessation are not easy for most worldlings to do. N: There are three kinds of seclusion, viveka; kaya viveka, citta viveka, upadhi viveka. The first one (by body) is living solitary. The second one: this depends on the citta, it can be any time, any place. Think of Migasala: dwelling alone or dwelling with a mate. Upadhi: this is connected with eradication. upadhi: the substratum of existence. T: In addition, the bojjhanga factors are at the higher level than both > samatha bhavana (e.g. the anapanasati bhavana) and the four > foundations of mindfulness (satipatthana), according to SN LIV.13, > Ananda Sutta. But your statement above makes the development of > the two bojjhanga factors sounds so easy. N: I have to look at the sutta again, it is late now (for me). All bhojjhangas develop together with vipassana, with satipatthana which I consider the same as vipassana. We do not have to think: now I develop this or that bhojjhanga. It happens by conditions. But I am not so far yet that bhojjhangas develop! Nina. 40876 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Hi Dave, op 09-01-2005 16:28 schreef David Cosentino op dharmabum253@y...: > How does one attain samadhi without developing the > jhanas? N: Kelvin answered but I can just touch on a few points. Samadhi is ekaggata cetasika arising with each citta. When it arises with the citta that develops samatha it becomes stronger. It has many degrees. Htoo and Kelvin explained about the degrees when one develops jhana. When vipassana is developed samadhi also develops. It is one of the factors of enlightenment, and it develops together with all the other factorsas insight develops. These factors are not developed seperately, one by one, but all together. D: How can one take nibbana as an object if one has never > experienced it and if it is not an object? N: This was answered by others. Nina. 40877 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas Hi Matthew, op 10-01-2005 00:43 schreef Matthew Miller op bupleurum@y...: > I'm in agreement with Howard here (I think). If I "compare" myself > to a corpse, this is not a direct experience, it is a "story" or > "situation" -- samutti. N: Just trying to explain the difference, that is all. > Furthermore, I have no idea what a corpse experiences. I assume that > it lacks experiences that I have, but this is just speculation. I > don't really know what it feels like to be a corpse. N: It has no citta, just rupas, conditioned by temperature. >> Nutritive essence is like a lifesap that permeates the whole body >> when one has eaten food.(snipped) > M: Aren't we just talking about ideas > ("stories") from physics here? Albeit this is the physics of India > circa 500 B.C., when most people saw the human body in terms of > "elements" like fire, earth, air, and water (or, in the Chinese > scheme, Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal and Water). This all seems > conventional (samutti) to me. >N: I find it as real as anything. This is for all times, as I said to Howard. Nina. 40878 From: David Cosentino Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 0:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Has anyone here attained samadhi without passing through the jhanas? Is there any actual evidence other than scriptural evidence that samadhi can be attained without passing through the jhanas? I think it's impossible. It seems to me states of bliss happen naturally and without effort. --- Nina van Gorkom wrote: > > Hi Dave, > op 09-01-2005 16:28 schreef David Cosentino op > dharmabum253@y...: > > > How does one attain samadhi without developing the > > jhanas? > N: Kelvin answered but I can just touch on a few > points. > Samadhi is ekaggata cetasika arising with each > citta. When it arises with > the citta that develops samatha it becomes stronger. > It has many degrees. > Htoo and Kelvin explained about the degrees when one > develops jhana. > When vipassana is developed samadhi also develops. <....> 40879 From: Andrew Levin Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi AndrewL (& RobK), > But Sarah, you left out of your post nearly everything to do with my mindful walks and how it is or is not possible, or what are the benefits of, or how one can progress with, being mindful of nama and rupa back-to-back so that it looks like there is mindfulness of everything! Certainly you still hold your views, so I would like to see if we could come to some sort of agreement about how it may work or may not work - or at least try - this was the most important point of how my practise may be moving forward. > "Thus should `clear comprehension through non-delusion' be understood here > as reviewing the aggregates, the bases, the elements and the conditions." Oh, well boy, that's a lot to review, I would never have guessed it necessary to have knowledge of all of these when reading Ven. U Silananda's section on "clear comprehension of non-delusion." What a task! But hey, it takes skill and skillful is good, right? > …. > ... > > Weird, I thought I've seen consciousness, and on a Buddhist community > > forum I visit, one of the top important posts is "Does anything exist > > other than consciousness?" So it appears other people have seen it > > too. > …. > S: Seeing consciousness can only ever see visible object. I tried to find > the post RobK was referring to of mine, but this is the only one that came > up when I searched for my name and `location'. The following may be > relevant for you here: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/35637 > >S: I'd like to add a little more on this interesting topic. > > Larry just quoted from Vism, Ch. XIV > > "96. Herein, (34) 'eye-consciousness' has the characteristic of being > supported by the eye and cognizing visible data." > <....> > > "35)-(38) 'Ear-, nose-, tongue-, and body-consciousness' [respectively] > have the characteristic of being supported by the ear, etc., and > cognizing sounds, and so on. " > > In other words, just as there cannot be eye-consciousness without the eye > or the particular rupa of eye-base, so too there cannot be > body-consciousness at any part of the body without the rupa of body-base > at that location.< So what is that consciousness that can cognize consciousness? Is there? If not, why does it appear that consciousness can be known? > …. > A:> OK. Best to know ultimate realities then, right? > … > S: Yes. If we don't clearly understand the distinction between namas and > rupas and if we confuse say seeing itself with the pasada rupa of > eye-sense or don't appreciate that it's conditioned by the impingement of > visible object on that eye-sense, we will always have some strange ideas > about what is experienced and what experiences. This is why we need to > really understand what is the meaning of terms like vatthu (base), > arammana (object) and citta (consciousness). The Abhidhamma and all the > details we read about are just about these presently arising dhammas. > > When there is awareness of seeing consciousness, there is no idea about > location, about eye-base or whether anything else exists. It's just the > nama which experiences. The same when visible object is known - it's > perfectly clear than nothing else can be seen and there's no confusion > with eye-base or seeing. It's just the rupa which appears at that moment. OK. So just being mindful is enough. > ... > > It explains that mindfulness is to be cultivated, developed, and > > enlarged, especially a factor of enlightenment, and that mindfulness > > of certain nama and rupa (such as four elements) will see craving and > > clinging wane. Mindfulness is the objective of the Four Foundations > > of _Mindfulness_ :0) > … > S: Also understanding with detachment from the elements , without clinging > or expectation of what will arise now or in future. The Buddha says, in his assurance of attainment, that one can indeed expect certain results, if the four foundations are practised according to instructions. But I wonder, have you implicitly accepted that mindfulness can be expanded in the way I've talked about? > …. > > Thanks Sarah, > > For being unbelievably patient with me as always, > > A.L. > … > S: Not at all. Writing to friends like you is a kind of meditation for me > as I think Nina has mentioned too. I always enjoy your comments and > questions a lot and find them very helpful. Thx also for sharing your > discussions with Kel and others here with us. A supportive community can > help provide all sorts of assistance in our understanding of Dhamma, I > find. > > I'll be glad for any further comments you have. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ======== Sarah, just about the books, I looked at a few of the selections you listed, and I just don't have the money for them. I have sent numerous requests for materials to BPS and they have not responded at all. Besides, I am not too keen on studying the Buddha's paranibbana, etc, although it is good to know, instead I want to know what can be known to bring me closer to liberation. (Although the one on the thicket of views could be useful, and the commentary on the discourse on the fruits of the recluse's life looks quite appealing) Also, do not say I am very serious about Abhidharma. I still do not feel on the same level as posters here about it, and am only reviewing up to Chapter One in CMA, and am still uncertain about how it will relate to my practise. Enjoy talking with you, A.L. 40880 From: kelvin_lwin Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 2:15pm Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi all, This sure looks like a touchy subject. I think we should keep in mind how each sutta starts, "Thus I have heard". It is a useful disclaimer to denote how the pali canon have been passed down to present day. Even the original's complete authenicity can't be guaranteed, much less english translations. Also we have to account for the audience the dhamma was given to. India during Buddha's time was made up for warring tribes. So his teachings relied on the people's knowledge of war, societal structure and farming. This was the most effective way to transmit the teaching to people of his time. So the words and the meanings also have to be understood in that historical context. Do they have the same meaning in present day India? Not likely, even worse for western cultures when the background is so different. How do we accurately and correctly account for colloquial usage? In Burmese, a lot of pali words have made their way into everyday vocabulary. When we started learning abhidhamma, we discovered their "real" meaning. It has taken sometime to relearn some words and my mom still struggles with it. It's a fact that human language evolves overtime and we can easily fall into the trap of taking things too literally. As others have said, the strength of real dhamma is it doesn't require a leap of faith. One can go and verify it by practicing and applying it. Only then will it become bhavana-panna and one obtain unshakable faith of one's understanding of dhamma, not because one is told but because it works! While the truth is universable, no doubt each person, even arahants have their own slightly different take on it. To say total belief in the current version of Abhidhamma or even the whole Tipitaka is required only alienate people. Real understanding should be natural, just part of one's progress based on one's own experience. Blind faith leads to blind devotion and that is definitely something Buddha warned against. I also like to think while there's only one path, it's more like a highway. There's definitely room for different ways of driving on that highway. - kel 40881 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 3:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Hi Dave and Nina, Dave, hope you don't mind my butting in--your question below reminded me of an interesting passage in the Summary of the Topics of Abhidhamma: ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Cosentino" To: Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas > How can one take nibbana as an object if one has never > experienced it and if it is not an object? The Buddha > described nibbana as uncompounded, unborn, etc. If > something is uncompounded, it has no parts, if it has > no parts it is not an object. I'm not trying to be > saucy, just trying to understand your viewpoint. (Anuruddha) [THE ANALYSIS OF NIBBAANA] "(62) Nibbaana, however, which is reckoned as the transcendent, to be realized by the knowledge of the four paths, and becomes the object of the paths and fruits, is called nibbaana since it has left behind (nikkhanta) craving, reckoned as 'weaving' (vaana). (Sumangala's Commentary) [THE EXPLANATION OF THE ANALYSIS OF NIBBAANA] "(62) Having so far given a detailed description of consciousness, mentalities, and materiality, now describing nibbaana, he states the words beginning Nibbaana. "To be realized by the knowledge of the four paths: by this he indicates that for the various noble persons nibbaana is something established by direct experience; becomes the object of the paths and fruits: by this [he indicates] that for good ordinary persons it is something established by inference. For knowledge that has a conditioned dhamma or a concept as its objects is not capable of cutting off and stilling the defilements. And as the cutting off of defilements, etc., is something that exists in the world, so it is established that there exists a single dhamma, called nibbaana, which is opposed to conditioned and conventional dhammas, which brings about the cutting off and stilling of the defilements, and becomes the object of the path and fruit. Andy by showing that nibbaana is established by direct experience and inference, he refutes the argument of those who erroneously take nibbaana as a mere absence [of defilements]. This is sufficient elaboration." I found this interesting and hope you'll find it useful. For those of us with confidence in abhidhamma this sort of detail is really invaluable, I think. mike 40882 From: m. nease Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Of course this should've been "And by"--I didn't mean to attribute this to any of our Andys...! mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "m. nease" To: Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas > Andy by showing that nibbaana is established by direct > experience and inference, he refutes the argument of those who erroneously > > take nibbaana as a mere absence [of defilements]. This is sufficient > elaboration." 40883 From: Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 4:43pm Subject: Vism.XIV,130 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 130. But though classed in the same way as consciousness, nevertheless, as to characteristic, etc., it all has just the characteristic of perceiving. Its function is to make a sign as a condition for perceiving again that 'this is the same', as carpenters, etc., do in the case of timber, and so on. It is manifested as the action of interpreting by means of the sign as apprehended, like the blind who 'see' an elephant (Ud. 68-69). Its proximate cause is an objective field in whatever way that appears, like the perception that arises in fauns that see scarecrows as men. This is the section of the detailed explanation dealing with the perception aggregate. 40884 From: connieparker Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:14pm Subject: Re: pasada rupas, Howard Hi, Howard, Matthew, Nina, All, Nina: > Nausea, dizziness, all conventional terms to denotea situation with 'me' > in the center of it all. Matthew: I don't see how the sensations of "nausea" or "dizziness" are necessarily any more or less tied to stories about Self than, say, "hardness" or "seeing." One could just as easily think "my hardness" or "my seeing." Connie: I think nausea and dizziness being a megakalapatic sequence of rupas and the sanna/thoughts stringing them together automatically make them stories, just like the tree that keeps popping up here. Only a self can be nauseated. It takes a whole body to balance or dizz. There is no single characterisic described as I feel like puking or the world has just spun out. That's all me and mine. And I think we do just as you say with the rest: my hardness or my seeing without even being aware of it. Because we really don't know nama from rupa and we just can't get over self. Not just self as no Connie, but no anything I'm used to thinking of. I don't even know about cold. By the time I do, I've already given it a place... a context, a story... the hardness at my keyboard and hands, my cold feet or whatever. My ears were freezing by the time I got back from walking to the post office this afternoon and when I was thinking about it, I couldn't tell if they were burning or hard or what, but I think they were growing like Pinocchio's nose! Everything has to have some context for me so I can label it and that is part of my story making, not direct experience. Back to my big glacial ears, if I really was experiencing cold, that really would be huge. But still not big enough for there to be room for me. That one single characteristic we've labeled cold would be the sum total of existence at that moment. Not to say there was no experience of cold, but to say I quickly covered it up with my everyday blanket of my warm, cozy, conceptual reality. I have these ideas about what hardness and the other characteristics of rupas are, but all my experience is mine. The one I really have trouble thinking of even, is motion. How do you understand that without some kind of lasting atta-thing? peace, connie 40885 From: Matthew Miller Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:50pm Subject: Re: pasada rupas, Howard Connie wrote: > It takes a whole body to balance or dizz. Actually, it only takes the labyrinth of the inner ear. Motion of fluid in the semicircular canals of the labyrinth determines balance- sense, just as vibration of the hair cells of the nearby cochlea determines hearing. Both are anatta -- until we start making up me- centered stories about them, but that's much further down the chain of signal processing, in the brain. Matthew 40886 From: connieparker Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:07pm Subject: Re: pasada rupas, Howard Hi again, Matthew, Connie wrote: > It takes a whole body to balance or dizz. Actually, it only takes the labyrinth of the inner ear. Motion of fluid in the semicircular canals of the labyrinth determines balance- sense, just as vibration of the hair cells of the nearby cochlea determines hearing. Both are anatta -- until we start making up me- centered stories about them, but that's much further down the chain of signal processing, in the brain. Matthew To speak of an inner ear or a labrinth is again, a whole story or body... an atta, like that other straw man further down the road. peace, connie 40887 From: Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,130 Hi Nina, When you do the presentation on this section I would be interested to know if the commentary says anything about signs possibly being the root illusion of self. Are signs the only thing that is remembered? How do we see that signs are not self? I don't think insight into impermanence would work because memory hides impermanence. Possibly something to do with dependent arising would be the key, but I notice there isn't a sanna link in dependent arising. Also, could you mention something about sa~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha? This can all wait until you get back. Larry 40888 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:28pm Subject: Re: jhanas Hi Kelvin - I read your message # 40834 a few times over with admiration. It is very well written and it reflects your clear understanding of samatha and vipassana in the framework of the Abhidhamma. Thank you very much for this excellent reply. Kel: Again you can utilize breath to extend to cittanupassana or dhammanupassana but it's a harder transition. T: I agree. The Anapanasati bhavana in 4 tetrads is difficult to understand, especially after the first tetrad (the basic breath meditation). The cittanupassana and dhammanupassana extensions of the basic breath meditation correspond to the 3rd and 4th tetrads in Girimananda Sutta [AN X.60] or MN 118: "[ix] He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the mind, and to breathe out sensitive to the mind. [x] He trains himself to breathe in satisfying the mind, and to breathe out satisfying the mind. [xi] He trains himself to breathe in steadying the mind, and to breathe out steadying the mind. [xii] He trains himself to breathe in releasing the mind, and to breathe out releasing the mind. "[xiii] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on inconstancy, and to breathe out focusing on inconstancy. [xiv] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading], and to breathe out focusing on dispassion. [xv] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on cessation, and to breathe out focusing on cessation. [xvi] He trains himself to breathe in focusing on relinquishment, and to breathe out focusing on relinquishment. [Endquote] I would greatly appreciate your explanation of the above two tetrads, such that it can be used as instruction for actual meditation. I hope I did not ask too much. Warmest regards, Tep ======= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kelvin_lwin" wrote: > > Hi Tep, > > Happy to reply with what I know. > ... .... .... .... . > > - kel 40889 From: connieparker Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:45pm Subject: Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Hi, James, Sorry, somehow I can say something like 'dear friends', but Friend James or whatever individual I can't do without being reminded of Quakers, so please don't think I'm trying to be rude. James: Life Faculty is the force of vitality that keeps the other factors in existence in a living being http://my.tbaytel.net/arfh/dhamma/abhi1.html However, Nina in her other post makes the suggestion that life faculty is heat. Huh?? Now, I don't get that at all. ===== That def'n of jivitindriya is like I understand it: the cetasika that maintains the life of the citta and cetasikas arising with it, where life lasts as long as a moment of citta; also the rupa-jivitindriya is a kammaja-rupa that maintains the life of rupas arising with it. I couldn't see where in the other posts Nina suggested that life faculty was heat. Just that plant 'life' rupas were utuja rupas. peace, connie 40890 From: Tep Sastri Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:09pm Subject: Re: vasana of the arahat. Dear Nina (& Htoo, David, Mike,...) - N: Vasana is accumulated in the citta. It is expressed by body or speech, thus the rupas bodily intimation and speech intimation are conditioned by citta, in this case kiriyacitta. I would not say it resides in a specific khandha. Citta is always accompanied by cetasikas, sanna included. But I see no specific role of sanna or the other cetasikas. T: This answer is most convincing! Now it is clear that because accumulated vasana in the kiriyacitta directly conditions bodily intimation and speech intimation of the Arahat, that's why the other cetasikas don't play any role here. But the implication that vasana is undestructible still annoys me. What is so special about vasana that makes it "permanent", at least while the Arahat is alive? In general, does vasana acompany patisandhi citta to form a new life? Kindest regards, Tep ======= > op 09-01-2005 20:19 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > I do not follow the suggestion that habits (vasana) "reside" in sankhara khandha. Because 'avijja paccaya sankhara' as stated by the Dependent Origination, and avijja no longer "resides" in the Arahat, so how come vasana still does? > > I think habit is probably a part of the sanna khandha. What do you think? 40891 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma - Andrew L Hi AndrewL, --- Andrew Levin wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott > wrote: > > Hi AndrewL (& RobK), > > > > But Sarah, you left out of your post nearly everything to do with my > mindful walks and how it is or is not possible, or what are the > benefits of, or how one can progress with, being mindful of nama and > rupa back-to-back so that it looks like there is mindfulness of > everything! …. S: Ooops! Andrew, when I read your posts, I highlight any particular questions you raise or sections where you ask for comments. Otherwise, I’m not sure if you’re just telling me for my interest or benefit or wanting feedback. If you put in qu marks, I’ll definitely respond! Anyway, as you’re asking for comments now, in brief, I think that if we follow any particular action such as walking or sitting in order to be mindful or attending to any particular objects – whether breath, elements or death, it’s bound to be motivated by an idea of self rather than an understanding of anatta and conditioned dhammas arising at anytime. Even if there is an idea of ‘being mindful of nama and rupa back-to-back…’ it’s bound to be motivated by attachment and desire for results, not understanding and detachment of what is arising now. The path is subtle and it’s not a matter of studying texts or focusing during particular activities, but of living naturally, developing awareness of any dhamma (reality) including the strong attachment for results, wrong views of self which arise and so on. I know these comments don’t appeal and that’s why I don’t add them unless requested!! Let me ask you - do they make any sense or not? The most important aspect of development or practice is the understanding and eradication of the wrong idea of self. ….. >Certainly you still hold your views, so I would like to > see if we could come to some sort of agreement about how it may work > or may not work - or at least try - this was the most important point > of how my practise may be moving forward. …. S: Yes, I’m very glad to keep exchanging and looking for agreement here. Even when we have an idea of ‘my practise’, I think it may be wrapt up in an idea of ‘me’. What do you say? . > > "Thus should `clear comprehension through non-delusion' be > understood here > > as reviewing the aggregates, the bases, the elements and the > conditions." > > Oh, well boy, that's a lot to review, I would never have guessed it > necessary to have knowledge of all of these when reading Ven. U > Silananda's section on "clear comprehension of non-delusion." What a > task! But hey, it takes skill and skillful is good, right? …. S: LOL. Yes, it takes skill – the skill of developed panna (wisdom) to understand that all there are in life are khandhas (aggregates) or ayatanas (sense-fields/bases) or dhatus (elements) and that these khandhas/ayatanas/dhatus are all conditioned, not in anyone’s control at all, even for a mini-second. Someone else asked about khandhas vs ayatanas and yes, they are different ways of explaining dhammas. Some may find it helpful to think in terms of khandas and others in terms of ayatanas or dhatus. They’re not just Pali terms in the texts to be learnt, but hearing now is a khandha/ayatana/dhatu and sound is another one. Walking, breathing,, the hospital, corpses are not any of these. So we can study and list different kinds of concepts, but the path will only be apparent when there is awareness of realities aka khandhas/ayatanas/dhatus …. > So what is that consciousness that can cognize consciousness? Is > there? If not, why does it appear that consciousness can be known? … S: Good qu! The present consciousness (citta) accompanied by sati can cognize and be aware of the citta (or any of its accompanying mental factors) that has just fallen away. It can also think about past cittas and mental states, such as the anger yesterday, but this is not being aware of it directly. Actually, citta ‘cognizes’ an object at every instant, whether or not there is any awareness. I may have misunderstood your use of terms. Let me know. …. > OK. So just being mindful is enough. …. S: Yes, being aware of a dhamma (reality) is enough and then gone. Just for a moment and slowly panna can begin to know what that characteristic of mindfulness is and when it arises and doesn’t arise. This way we’ll see there cannot be mindfulness all the time and none of the time by wishing for it. .... > The Buddha says, in his assurance of attainment, that one can indeed > expect certain results, if the four foundations are practised > according to instructions. But I wonder, have you implicitly accepted > that mindfulness can be expanded in the way I've talked about? …. S: I don’t read the four foundations as a list of instructions but as a description of realities which can arise by conditions and be known at anytime without wishing, desire or expectation. I also used to feel a desperate urgency like you do at about the same age too, but gradually I came to see that this is not the way ‘that mindfulness can be expanded’ and that following such practices or reading the texts like instruction manuals just led to more wrong view of self and desire for results rather than less. This isn’t meant to sound condescending at all, Andrew. Just to say, I understand and sympathise with what you’re saying and most teachers and writers will agree with what you’re saying. I believe your deep reflection and consideration on conditioned dhammas and anatta will provide the breakthrough, not the following of the Satipatthana Sutta as an instruction manual. …. > Sarah, just about the books, I looked at a few of the selections you > listed, and I just don't have the money for them. I have sent > numerous requests for materials to BPS and they have not responded at > all … S: Understood. BPS – always difficult. Forget email – post or fax is best and even then is problematic. No hurry for books – until quite recently, the only one available from the list was the Atth transl. We had none of BB’s works at all in the old days. Discussing, considering and developing a good understanding of anatta is most important. As I suggested before, try listening to the India audio (FREE!) and let us know any points/qus or comments that arise. Connie has just been doing this;-);-) … > Also, do not say I am very serious about Abhidharma. I still do not > feel on the same level as posters here about it, and am only reviewing > up to Chapter One in CMA, and am still uncertain about how it will > relate to my practise. … S: OK, I won’t say it….but just the fact that we’re discussing dhammas here together in detail and that you’re reviewing ch one of CMA speaks for itself. (I’d even say the same about other members here who claim to have no interest at all in abhidhamma;-)). No need to be certain of anything – just keep checking, exploring and questioning as you’re doing. … >> Enjoy talking with you, … S: Likewise and apologies for missing the target yesterday. Hope this addresses the points even if it makes it harder to find the common practice ground between us. I hope others will participate too. Metta, Sarah ======== 40892 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Compassion .. Idiot Compassion .. Conspicuous Compassion Hi Chris & All, I think that both you and your friend raised good points here and also in the other thread on ‘Doubt and Confidence'. As you and others have said, we all have ups and downs. .... --- Christine Forsyth wrote: > When I was speaking to friends, pointing out the repetitive pattern > that we are all part of, one of them who knows I am a Buddhist, > said 'what would you do in this situation? <…> The friend then said 'what would the Buddha tell you to > do in this situation?' <..> …. S: As Nina said, the dhamma ‘can prevent us from going into pitfalls’. We may have read and considered a lot, but of course this is different from fully understanding dhammas which is of course the only way to remove the idea of self. In India, we discussed how it has to be our own understanding of the teachings, not the others’ understanding. So it’s important to keep asking, questioning, discussing and considering until it really is a firm knowledge being developed as I see it. In India you also raised many good, practical ‘Daily Dilemma’ questions in the garden at Savatthi (on audio in the first series under Savatthi)and I think the discussions are relevant to your recent posts as well. You wondered if some of the difficulties were cultural, but no, doubt, ignorance and dilemmas don’t have any cultural boundaries;-). We also discussed how when we feel dissatisfied, the root of the problem is often the attachment to wanting to know more, wanting to feel good or wanting certainty. I think Howard touched on this aspect of attachment too. I’ve transcribed some of K.Sujin’s (KS) helpful(imho)responses to some of your questions which were asking for advice with regard to dogs (and one special one;-)), social issues such as euthanasia in hospitals and so on.I know Joop and others would have enjoyed your comments. …. KS: “(The question is) what should I do? As Buddhists we live and develop understanding because we can’t be the world’s manager at all, but we can understand life as it’s conditioned for everyone because it has to be that person’s previous kamma. The result is there and it depends on the kusala and akusala cittas after the vipaka. “As much as we can do is to have metta and karuna and help to do our best, that’s all. Because you see that crying or even being disturbed by those situations is not the Buddha’s teaching at all. He saves us from all akusala (by helping us to develop) panna which knows and understands the situation." S: You rightly pointed out that we can't help being disturbed or upset. KS: “(When it comes), one knows one’s accumulations to understand the world, your own world, because usually we mix all worlds together, but actually there’s only one moment of citta and it keeps on thinking about people and things and worlds, but actually it’s your own thinking and when there is understanding, one can see whether at that moment, it thinks with kusala or akusala. “Just know or understand reality, (this) is the Buddha’s teaching. Not the others’ teaching.” …. [S: I think Phil also made a good point in reply to your thread when he said ‘We know that according to the Buddha’s teaching, people are suffering in this lifetime due to kamma. It seems terrible to say that someone was born to abusive parents due to kamma, but we know that this is the case. So again there is a conflict between conventional understanding of such issues, and Dhamma understanding, which might be doubt inducing.’] ….. S: A little later in the garden at Savatthi… KS: “No one can stop thinking, but one should know whether it’s kusala or akusala. When it’s kusala, you know what to do and how to help, but not by planning with akusala and no need to set up an organization or name, but you can just do anything you can (to help).” S: Earlier she also said: KS:“What about you (just) always do (good) and no need for others to know about (your) actions?” S: Later you asked about how a Buddhist should act with regard to certain social and political situations, such as voting for a Government involved in war in Iraq and sharing the responsibility and so on. KS: (It’s a) long, long series of kusala cittas and akusala cittas and vipaka and kiriya (cittas). Because no matter it’s the story today or in the old days, I go straight to the citta and cetasikas, because actually the name can be changed, but reality cannot be changed. We just call it Iraq or a different name, but actually what about this moment? Otherwise we’ll never understand the reality of this moment at all. (It’s) the same in the Tipitaka or before that or after that, exactly the same by kusala citta, akusala citta, and also vipaka or kiriya citta. So we’d better understand the realities, rather than the different stories.” ….. S: Chris, I’ve found it very helpful to reflect further on these reminders in response to your good questions. Please do post ‘Conspicuous Compassion’ and let us know honestly how these comments of KS’ sound – no need for any agreement! Joop and others may have comments too! I’ll sign off with a sutta which reminds us that the world only consists of the ayatanas, the ‘meeting’ of dhammas, empty of self. Metta, Sarah …… 35: 85 (2) Empty is the World “Then the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One...and said to him: ‘Venerable sir, it is said, ‘Empty is the world, empty is the world.’ In what way, venerable sir, is it said, ‘Empty is the world’?” “It is, Ananda, because it is empty of self and of what belongs to self that is is said, ‘Empty is the world.’ And what is empty of self and of what belongs to self? The eye, Ananda, is empty of self and of what belongs to self. Forms....Eye-consciousness....Eye-contact.....Whatever feeling arises with mind-contact as condition - whether pleasant or painful or neither painful-nor-pleasant- that too is empty of self and of what belongs to self. “It is, Ananda, because it is empty of self and of what belongs to self that it is said, ‘Empty is the world.’ “ ========================================== 40893 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:04am Subject: ‘Cetasikas' study corner 95- Volition in the Cycle of Birth and Death (g) Dear Friends, 'Cetasikas' by Nina van Gorkom http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas.html http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Questions, comments and different views welcome;-) ========================================== [Ch.5 Volition(cetanaa]in the Cycle of Birth and Death contd] ***** Ignorance, the first link, conditions saòkhåra , the second link. Saòkhåra are the kusala cetanås and akusala cetanås, the kammas, which are capable of producing vipåka. Saòkhåra conditions viññåùa (consciousness). Viññåùa, the third link, is vipåkacitta which can be rebirth-consciousness or vipåkacitta arising throughout life such as seeing or hearing. The Dependant Origination represents the conditions for our present life and our life in the future, thus, the conditions for the continuation of the cycle of birth and death. ***** [Ch.5 Volition in the cycle of Birth and Death to be contd] Metta, Sarah ====== 40894 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: > Hi Suan > > what you write here has all the earmarks of Nazi propaganda. > My way or the highway? Not at all along the lines of "test it for yourself > and find your own conclusions" which I think is much more the Buddha's > approach. Religious zeal can be a very dangerous thing if used unwisely. > > I can't think of one good reason why the Abhidhamma Pitaka would be > considered the authentic teachings of the Buddha "himself." But I can think of a lot > of reasons of why it wouldn't be. . I feel very little of the 5th > Nikaya is his actual teaching. >======================= Dear TG, If you look at Suan's message from another perspective you might feel differently One suttas in Anguttara Nikaya III.126 Gotamaka-cetiya On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Vesali at Gotamaka Shrine. There he addressed the monks, "Monks!" "Yes, lord," the monks responded. ?eMonks, I proclaim Dhamma with full comprehension, not without full comprehension. I proclaim Dhamma with causal connexions, not without. I proclaim Dhamma accompanied by wonders, not without wonders. Since I do so there is good reason why I should admonish, there is good reason why I should instruct. Well may ye be glad. Well may ye be satisfied. Well may ye be pleased at the thought: Perfectly enlightened is the Exalted One. Well taught by the Exalted One is Dhamma. Well conducted is the Order.?f So spake the Exalted One. And those monks were indeed satisfied and delighted with the words of the Exalted. And while this explanation was being given, the ten- thousand fold world-system quaked We can its significance because it is one of only a handful where the world systems shook. Howver, suttas such as this are less popular with the modern Buddhist and the kalama sutta, given to a group who were not followers of the Buddha is placed foremost and lauded as evidence that Buddhism is for free thinkers or scientists. The danger with this is that once someone decides he is a buddhist he believes that a 'true' follower believes nothing - least of all anything in the Tipitaka - and should experiment and adopt whatever views suit his disposition. This, I believe, is not the way to come to insight. Insight depends on saddha - without it there can never be understanding- and yet on forums such as this members will happily proclaim distrust of the teachings- as if it was a sign of a discriminating wisdom. But, I believe, this is only doubt and wrong view and the writer is actaully making kamma that will further weaken the roots of good. I try not to discuss this with many often as I genuinely fear that someone might say something even more damaging. Suan's expression of faith in the Abhidhamma , if taken to heart , could benefit many. I fear in the future very few will have the courage or wisdom to make Suan's lions roar. RobertK 40895 From: jwromeijn Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:30am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: ... > There are many ways to nibbana is not in line with The Buddha > teachings. > > Htoo Naing Dear Htoo Thanks for your poetic reaction, but I still have some remarks I didn't talk about nibbana and the possibility that there is a way to it; I said to think that there is more than one way to enlightenment. To me that's not the same. Let's not forget that is was a reaction to Suan's metta-poor message. Even for a 100% theravadin it must be possible to say that the Abhidhamma is composed years after Buddha's parinibbana. And the more for somebody - like me - who thinks parts of the Tipitaka should not be taken literal (talking about devas for example) and parts of it are not universal but representing the culture of North-India 2500 years ago (talking about rebirth for example). And for somebody who thinks other texts are representing the message of the Buddha too, for example Nagarjuna and the Heart Sutra. So for somebody who is very serious and sincere active with his buddhist path but who don't believe what he doesn't believe. Maybe I never get in (or should I say 'on') nibbana in this way but that really doesn't bother me for several reasons. One is I don't know what it is whatever other sentient beings tell me. Another is that I have no ambition, maybe being a stream-enterer is enough for me, I will experience how far I come the days or years I'm still on this planet. You say: "There is a single way and it is Noble Eightfold Path made up of 8 parts." I take the Noble Eightfold Path very serious but still say: it's one of the ways to express the buddhistic path. See for example the first sentence of the Saripatthana Sutta: "This is the only way … for the purification of beings" Metta Joop 40896 From: jwromeijn Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:32am Subject: [dsg] Re: Doubt and Confidence Dear Nina A week ago (in #40603) you said to me: "Then it is the wrong season to cultivate the limb of wisdom (bojjhanga or factor of enlightenment) that is tranquillity, concentration, equanimity. But the right time to cultivate investigation of dhamma, energy and enthusiasm." I didn't pay much attention to it but after rereading and realizing 'ethusiasm' was exactly what I was talking about, I'm doing some study about that factor 'piti', for example what you wrote about it, chapter 11 of Cetasikas To be honest, my first reaction when I saw that there is also unwholesome piti, to think: Oh no, not again. So I concentrate on the wholesome aspects of it; I said it before: I don't know if the dichotomy good - evil really exists, it's a projection of the human mind. When I have question as a result of this study, I come back to this topic. Metta Joop 40897 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies Hi Dan, Kel (& James)., --- "Dan D." wrote: > A very quick check-in with DSG... It's great to see such fervent (and > growing) activity still going on here--about 50% more posts per month > than when I began posting several years ago. You run a great > discussion group, Sarah and Jon. Keep up the good work! … S: Always good to see you checking in Dan, though I confess to also adopting ‘brace’ position;-);-). Thx for the kind words. Honestly speaking, it just runs itself these days for the most part and we’re able to sit back and leave any minor probs to all the members here to sort out. As James once commented with his usual diplomatic skills (j/k James;-)), it’s even better when Jon and I go away;-). … > > Sarah, I think James is right about your misquoting of Buddha. I > wouldn't think you'd do so intentionally, but your ellipses— …. S: OK, Ok – I certainly won’t argue the point if I’m up against you AND James!! Thx for spelling it out for me. Even then, I had to read it three times to see how it could have been mis-read, but finally the penny did drop;-). In fairness, looking back at #40576 and the earlier similar quote with more detail clearly stating it is the views that refer to the past not the bhikkhus, I don’t think I committed any great crime…..but I’ll try to be more careful of those ellipses in future and apologies to James. .... >…But I think you are right, Sarah, that the sutta is universal. …. S: Always a relief to find some common ground with you, Dan. I thought Kel made an excellent comment when he said: K:>ascestic = "samana" (one endeavouring to extinguish the passions) brahmin = "brahmana" (a person leading a pure, stainless and ascetic life) Those definitions seem to suggest people who are trying to find the way out of samsara outside of just Buddha's time period. So for anyone striving to find the truth, the wrong views enumerated are all the possible mistakes they can make due to their improper or partial understanding of the truth. I myself was taught there are 62 wrong views and always figured it didn't matter what they are as long as I under the right view.< …. S (Btw, Kel, did you see the reference in the Udana passage to samana and brahmana which I posted yest. In the vasana thread?). I didn’t pursue the thread further because both James and I had already been discussing for quite some time and I don’t think there’s much point in analyzing wrong views. Without the commentary’s help, I’d find it quite impossible anyway. For example, I discussed Dighanakka’s wrong view with a friend of the same name. In the comy it mentioned it was an annihilationist view, but I wouldn’t have known. Better to look at right views and what we can learn from them. I also think that James and others may have a point that we can say there are an indefinite number of wrong views – no need to number. BUT, as the text suggests, if we had enough wisdom we might see that they all fall under these categories which only a Buddha could enumerate. (Joop, these are views related to truths or dhammas. Views about democracy in Burma are not included in ditthi, unless one had the idea that this question ‘Is there or is there not democracy’ really pointed to truths about dhammas. If you wish to pursue that, I’ll definitely have to ask Dan to step in for more than a moment;-) As for the wrong views discussed in the Katthavatthu, we can see that they all come back to wrong views based on an atta belief. No need to pigeon-hole them in the 62 unless one wishes to do so, of course). Kel, I also liked your posts on the sotapanna, anagami etc very much. #40566 on sotapannas: “They can carry on normal lives; get married, have kids and what have you.” James, I enjoyed our long thread very much and learnt from it inc. those wretched ellipses…..;-). Metta, Sarah ==== 40898 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Dear TGrand, Howard, Nina, Mike, Htoo, Joop and all How are you? TG wrote: "No offense, but what you write here has all the earmarks of Nazi propaganda. My way or the highway? Not at all along the lines of "test it for yourself and find your own conclusions" which I think is much more the Buddha's approach. Religious zeal can be a very dangerous thing if used unwisely." I wonder if you read my post carefully as you seemed to miss the point I stressed in the post. The main point I made was to distinguish between the two types of human behaviours. One behaviour is to make speculative negative verbalizing about things, for example, Abhidhamma in this case while the other behaviour is to do things, for example, to practice Abhidhamma in the sense of actually learning, testing and experimenting it. Here is as I put it in my post: "Instead of engaging in speculative negative criticism and exclusion of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, the genuine practitioners of Dhamma would certainly learn and try out the teachings of Abhidhamma as best they can according to their capacity. They would be testing and experimenting the abhidhamma teachings to find out if they can really deliver the insight of selfless nature of the ultimate realities (paramattha dhammaa) and the insight of personless state of the natural scheme of things (Lokadhaatu), for which Abhidhamma sets out the explicit goal and foolproof method." Yet, you wrote: "but what you write here... Not at all along the lines of "test it for yourself and find your own conclusions" which I think is much more the Buddha's approach. Religious zeal can be a very dangerous thing if used unwisely." I think you overlooked the paragraph I just quoted from my post. Or do you understand it? If so, please analyse it for all of us? When you analyse what I wrote, you will discover that it has nothing to do with blind faith and dangerous religious zeal as you seemed to want to accuse me of. You also wrote: "TRUTH is the hallmark of an aspiring Buddhist or truth investigator. Claiming something to be true that, in fact, is not known to be true, is a dangerous and untruthful approach IMO." That is exactly what my post stressed by inference. By deduction from my writing, we get the following. Claiming Abhidhamma as a later development by mere speculative methods is a dangerous and untruthful approach. By implication, I amounted to writing in my post as follows. An aspiring Buddhist or truth investigator should be seriously learning, testing and experimenting the teachings of Abhidhamma "to find out if they can really deliver the insight of selfless nature of the ultimate realities (paramattha dhammaa) and the insight of personless state of the natural scheme of things, for which Abhidhamma sets out the explicit goal and foolproof method." Remember that I did not even ask the readers to find out if it is the words of the Buddha. The issue of Abhidhamma being the teachings of the Buddha will be discussed later. You also wrote: " How many Christians will look you in the face and say that they KNOW that God exists or that Jesus came here to save them? A lot! And yet, they don't really know it. I don't see that what is written down below is any different from that." Are you sure? If so, you misunderstood my writing. Try to read it more carefully again, together with what I wrote in this post. And, you also wrote: "I can't think of one good reason why the Abhidhamma Pitaka would be considered the authentic teachings of the Buddha "himself." But I can think of a lot of reasons of why it wouldn't be. And yet, I have no problems studying it or appreciating it." If you don't mind and are not too busy, can you describe your reasons why Abhidhamma Pitaka would not be the authentic teachings of the Buddha "himself"? As I will be writing more on this thread, I could take into consideration the reasons you can provide. In fact, I should be asking Howard the same question. Howard could provide his own reasons or the reasons he obtained from other sources such as Bhikkhu Bodhi or Nyanaponika or lay scholars. You also wrote: "And yet, I have no problems studying it or appreciating it. And you have no clue as to what my practice is or how motivated it is." TG, you are amazing, indeed. Do you mean that you have no saddhaa in Abhidhamma Pitaka, and yet you have cetanaa for studying and appreciating it? As for your practice and motivation, how would we have an clue unless you tell us? :-) With regards, Suan www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, TGrand458@a... wrote: Hi Suan No offense, but what you write here has all the earmarks of Nazi propaganda. My way or the highway? Not at all along the lines of "test it for yourself and find your own conclusions" which I think is much more the Buddha's approach. Religious zeal can be a very dangerous thing if used unwisely. I can't think of one good reason why the Abhidhamma Pitaka would be considered the authentic teachings of the Buddha "himself." But I can think of a lot of reasons of why it wouldn't be. And yet, I have no problems studying it or appreciating it. And you have no clue as to what my practice is or how motivated it is. I can't even claim that all of the Four Great Nikayas are for sure the Buddha's own teaching. But due to stylistic and content consistency and the difficulty of forging this type of consistency, I'm confident enough that the vast majority of them represent what he taught well. I feel very little of the 5th Nikaya is his actual teaching. TRUTH is the hallmark of an aspiring Buddhist or truth investigator. Claiming something to be true that, in fact, is not known to be true, is a dangerous and untruthful approach IMO. How many Christians will look you in the face and say that they KNOW that God exists or that Jesus came here to save them? A lot! And yet, they don't really know it. I don't see that what is written down below is any different from that. TG In a message dated 1/10/2005 6:34:43 AM Pacific Standard Time, suanluzaw@b... writes: But, those who view Abhidhamma as a later development are SPECULATIVE "academics" and not genuine followers of Gotama the Buddha and, as such, are not the genuine practitioners of his teachings. Do I have to remind a professor of mathematics like yourself that speculative doubting and negative verbalizing about Dhamma and practicing of Dhamma cancel out each other? Speculative doubting and negative verbalizing implies lack of saddhaa (confidence and trust) and destroys motivation (cetanaa) for practice. The serious followers of Gotama the Buddha and genuine practitioners of his teachings have abandoned indulgence in speculative negative verbalizing about Pali Tipitaka, (I mean Pali TI-PITAKA, consisting of Abhidhamma as the Third Pitaka). Instead of engaging in speculative negative criticism and exclusion of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, the genuine practitioners of Dhamma would certainly learn and try out the teachings of Abhidhamma as best they can according to their capacity. They would be testing and experimenting the abhidhamma teachings to find out if they can really deliver the insight of selfless nature of the ultimate realities (paramattha dhammaa) and the insight of personless state of the natural scheme of things (Lokadhaatu), for which Abhidhamma sets out the explicit goal and foolproof method. Anyone who views Abhidhamma as a later development and doubts its status as the authentic teachings of Gotama the Buddha will not have saddhaa in Abhidhamma. This lack of confidence and trust will remove their motivation for serious learning of Abhiddhama. Because they do not learn Abhidhamma seriously, they will lack adequate information about Abhidhamma. Because they are without information, they become ignorant and uninformed. As they are ignorant and uninformed, they continue indulgence in speculative negative verbalizing about Abhidhamma. In short, the uninformed and speculative academics and scholars, be they monks or lay people, practice the wrong speech (micchaa vaacaa). This leads them further away from practicing correctly the teachings of Gotama the Buddha. 40899 From: Egbert Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:15am Subject: The Tipitaka in that world where tsunamis happen Hi all, It was reported on FOX SPORTS, Jan 9, 2005, that: "JOCKEY Darren Beadman deserved a brandy when Magic Millions Trophy winner Tipitaka prompted owner John Singleton to shout free beer at the Gold Coast yesterday." (comm) a horse by the name of Tipitaka won a race somewhere in space and time, and the owner was happy enough to provide free beers for the rank-and-file gamblers. Furthermore: Any Australian watching the Channel Nine News last night would have seen a Sri Lankan thera in robes attributing the tsunami to the kamma of those involved. (cringe). Also: The Sydney Morning Herald of this morning reported that fundamentalist Muslims had proof positive that God was behind the tsunami, and that because of the disobedience of the people. Satellite imaging had shown beyond doubt that a certain receding wave at a certain beach had spellt out the name of God in Arabic. The politics of compasssion are unfolding at this moment. Whoever it was that said that it was good to have followers was both a fool and a fool. Kind Regards Herman PS At 14-1 odds, Tipitaka is good value 40900 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: sutta, to Tep Dear Tep, This post is rather old, but before leaving I try to clean up files. My post is not quite complete as to text interpretation, but I send it anyway. op 31-12-2004 17:28 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > N: Mahanama was a sotaapanna, and that means that he could attain > access concentration with this subject. Jhana is not possible, because > this subject is too deep. > > The Buddha said to him, that he should recollect: > .... .... "Mahanama, you should develop this recollection of the Sangha > while you are walking, while you are standing, while you are sitting, > while you are lying down, while you are busy at work, while you are > resting in your home crowded with children.> I like this passage, it > shows that he can apply to this meditation subject naturally, because > the right condiitons are present. He had an unshakable confidence in > the Buddha. > > T: I think I understand the above to mean that recollection is a > meditation subject that can be effectively applied off the cushion, but it > cannot be used to attain jhana because it (recollection) is too deep. I > am not sure that my understanding is correct because a deep > meditation suject should enhance jhana better than a shallow one. N: The Visuddhimagga explains this. I find it understandable. Who can understand what enlightenment means, only someone who is an airiyan. And then the Buddha's omniscience cannot be fathomed. Thus, an ariyan can bbe successful with this subject, but he cannot attain jhana. T: I also would like to observe that your referenced sutta, AN XI.13, states > that recollection is to be developed after one has developed the 5 > qualities (indriya) that include concentration (jhana), not the other way > around. N: I am glad you draw my attention to this. Mahanama was a sotapanna. Through the development of insight the five indriyas develop together and they become powers, balas. That means, they are firm and steady, unshakable by their opposites. Confidence cannot be shaken by doubt, mindfulness not by forgetfulness. The indriyas and powers are included in the 37 factors of enlightenment, and these develop together, not in isolation or separate from each other, so that enlightenment can be attained. Nina. 40901 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: pasada rupas, Howard. Hi Howard, op 10-01-2005 17:00 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Howard: > I don't disagree with you here, Nina. It was intentional that I used > the expression "SEQUENCE of body-door rupas" N: Yes, a sequence of rupas and we take them together, denoting them as nausea, etc. > Howard: > I am completely accepting of kamma and kammic consequence. The details > of these and their operation, however, are very complex and largely unknown > to us. The presumption of life faculty, however, is just a presumption. > Motion, heat, etc are observed. Life faculty is not, and least not by me. I do not > deny the existence of such a proposed phenomenon, but I also find no basis (or > need) for presuming it. N: Understandable, because it is a subtle rupa. I read about it, and understand just by inference. > Howard: BTW, the idea of plant life being solely a result of heat appears baseless to me. N: I subtract the other conditions for rupa which are kamma, citta and nutrition. Then only the element of heat is left. We speak about nutrition for plants, but that is more in a conventional, biological way. A plant neads moisture, true, but again, this is more conventional truth. . >> P.S. You have no fear of death. Can you elaborate on this, Howard? >> > ------------------------------------- > Howard: > There is not much to say, Nina. It is not that there is NO fear of > death. There is some. It became radically diminished subsequent to that brief > no-sense-of-self experience of mine close to a decade ago. A number of years > back, during a period of about a week in which I had good (but false) reason > for expecting to die soon, I simply was completely accepting and unafraid. > Whenever I turn my mind even now to the realization that at this very moment, in > actuality, there is no knowing subject at all, but just an impersonal flow of > experiential phenomena, there is very little concern that this experience > should radically alter or even cease entirely. N: As confidence grows, fear will be less. The sotapanna has eradicated all doubts and does not fear. A. Sujin said once that we fear what will happen to the self, but since the sotapanna does not hold on to self, he has no fear. >> How is your Dhamma group doing, what are the subjects? > --------------------------------------- > Howard: ...... > We've discussed a number of topics. The one we spent most time on was > dependent origination. That carried us for many meetings. Very soon we will > commence an extended study of the writings of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu and > comparisons > of his positions with those of other teachers and with what is to be found in > the Tipitaka itself and in the writings of Buddhaghosa. This project will be > quite an undertaking. N: This sounds like good topics, thank you for telling, Nina. 40902 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vasana of the arahat. Dear Tep, op 11-01-2005 06:09 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > N: Vasana is accumulated in the citta. It is expressed by body or > speech, thus the rupas bodily intimation and speech intimation are > conditioned by citta, in this case kiriyacitta. I would not say it resides in > a specific khandha. Citta is always accompanied by cetasikas, sanna > included. But I see no specific role of sanna or the other cetasikas. > > T: This answer is most convincing! Now it is clear that because > accumulated vasana in the kiriyacitta directly conditions bodily > intimation and speech intimation of the Arahat, that's why the other > cetasikas don't play any role here. N: But let us remember that cetasikas always accompany citta, they are implied when we speak of citta. T: But the implication that vasana is > undestructible still annoys me. What is so special about vasana that > makes it "permanent", at least while the Arahat is alive? N: It is just a reminder how tenacious all our habits are. T: In general, does vasana acompany patisandhi citta to form a new life? N: It is accumulated in each citta, thus also in patisandhicitta. Vasana is a detail, and I do not know much about arahats. It reminds me that they lead an ordinary life, though without defilements. Nina. 40903 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: nausea Hi Matthew, op 10-01-2005 21:03 schreef Matthew Miller op bupleurum@y...: > I don't see how the sensations of "nausea" or "dizziness" are > necessarily any more or less tied to stories about Self than, say, > "hardness" or "seeing." One could just as easily think "my hardness" > or "my seeing." N: Yes, quite right. But at least hardness or seeing have characteristics which can be objects of awareness and understanding so that the idea of 'I' can wear off. When we think of a whole story of : I am dizzy, this story is object of wrong thinking. It does not help to lessen the idea of self. Nina. 40904 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (228) Dear Htoo, When supernatural powers are being performed, what plane of cittas are there at that moment? Kaamavacara cittas accompanied by paññaa or jhanacittas? Nina. op 10-01-2005 17:57 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > The Buddha has to be fast because yamaka patihara or miracles do have > beneficial effects and to produce these miracle effects, He has to > switch on and off different jhanas with different kasinas very > quickly. 40905 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV,130 Hi Larry, op 11-01-2005 04:55 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > When you do the presentation on this section I would be interested to > know if the commentary says anything about signs possibly being the root > illusion of self. N: Yes, wrong intterpretation of reality is wrong saññaa. Perversion of saññaa. It is the wrong view that conditions the accompanying saññaa. When wrong view is eradicated saññaa does not interprete dhammas as self or permanent. L: Are signs the only thing that is remembered? N: Making a mark, sign or label is a way of explaining that saññaa marks and remembers the object that appears. Thus, it remembers the object that appears, whatever that may be. It may interprete it wrongly when it is wrong saññaa. L: How do we see that signs are not self? I don't think insight into impermanence > would work because memory hides impermanence. N: So, we should use the word object instead of sign. Saññaa hides impermanence so long as there is wrong view, wrong interpretation of realities. It attends to an object but at that moment its falling away is not realized, it seems to last. L: Possibly something to do with dependent arising would be the key, but I notice there isn't a > sanna link in dependent arising. N: That is to say: viññaa.na-paccaya naama-ruupa.m. Here included in naama are the cetasikas. so long as we are in the cycle there is citta accompanied by saññaa. L: Also, could you mention something about sa~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha? N: See dict. Nyanatiloka under nirodha. Non-returners and arahats who have also developed jhana and have mastery of all rupajhanas and arupajhanas, can attain temporal suspension of the bodily, verbal and mental functions:sa~n~naa-vedayita-nirodha. We read here about saññaa and vedana, but included is also citta they accompany. They are present in a residual way, they are very subtle. We cannot say they are absent, nor can we say they are present. Nina. 40906 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: life faculty Dear friend James, op 10-01-2005 19:56 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > I think of the life > faculty as being `synergy'. The energy of the sum total of the > parts, everything you mention. Here is a definition from the > Internet: > > Life Faculty is the force of vitality that keeps the other factors > in existence in a living being > http://my.tbaytel.net/arfh/dhamma/abhi1.html N: This is a rather good definition. Synergy etc. does not appeal to me. A sum total may seem an entity. But it arises and falls each moment of our life. J: However, Nina in her other post makes the suggestion that life > faculty is heat. Huh?? Now, I don't get that at all. N: I did not say that. Heat is another material phenomenon. Nina. 40907 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: motion Dear Connie, op 11-01-2005 03:14 schreef connieparker op connieparker@i...: > The one I really have trouble thinking of even, is motion. How do you > understand that without some kind of lasting atta-thing? N: Motion, pressure or oscillation. When you press your finger on your arm there is some resilience. Now this is a whole story to illustrate a characteristic. When we think about it, it will not be understood. It may appear suddenly to sati, but if not, never mind. Nina. 40908 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] jhanas Hi Dave, op 10-01-2005 21:45 schreef David Cosentino op dharmabum253@y...: > Has anyone here attained samadhi without passing > through the jhanas? N: Samadhi is developed so that jhana can be attained. It is the other way round. D: Is there any actual evidence other > than scriptural evidence that samadhi can be attained > without passing through the jhanas? I think it's > impossible. It seems to me states of bliss happen > naturally and without effort. N: Well, samadhi has to be developed on and one in order to attain jhana, but another question is who can. One has to distinguish what one takes for jhana from the true jhana. When the right conditions are fulfilled (and those are many) then jhana could arise naturally. Nina. 40909 From: m. nease Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: vasana of the arahat. Hi Tep, I liked Nina's answer too. A person's facial expression, posture and so on is formed to some extent by years of countless cittas; I think these also would be changed little even by nibbaana. I think the answer to your last question is 'no' but I can't document this. mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tep Sastri" To: Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 9:09 PM Subject: [dsg] Re: vasana of the arahat. > > Dear Nina (& Htoo, David, Mike,...) - > > N: Vasana is accumulated in the citta. It is expressed by body or > speech, thus the rupas bodily intimation and speech intimation are > conditioned by citta, in this case kiriyacitta. I would not say it resides > in > a specific khandha. Citta is always accompanied by cetasikas, sanna > included. But I see no specific role of sanna or the other cetasikas. > > T: This answer is most convincing! Now it is clear that because > accumulated vasana in the kiriyacitta directly conditions bodily > intimation and speech intimation of the Arahat, that's why the other > cetasikas don't play any role here. But the implication that vasana is > undestructible still annoys me. What is so special about vasana that > makes it "permanent", at least while the Arahat is alive? In general, > does vasana acompany patisandhi citta to form a new life? 40910 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:35am Subject: Re: Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Dear Joop, I do know the reaction to Suan by you and other. And I do know your idea on Abhidhamma text. Not on Abhidhamma. But on Abhidhamma text. Once you asked me and I delibrately avoided to answer. At that time the moderator told me that I was fine to do so. Anyway whay we are here is to exchange understanding and knowledge and experience. Skill can never be exchanged instead. But to develop that skill we do need a good mental foundation which has to be the right things in all possible cost. When we are here and exchanging our thoughts we are using words and these again might some effect to distort our accepted understanding because of word per se. For example you said 'there is more than one way to nibbana'. [more than one has to be 2 or 3 or 4 or many many. So there are many ways. And there 'are' more than one way to nibbana.] When I saw this message of 'there is more than one way to nibbana' this apparently is not that true to say Theravadin belief. I included that poetic response because when that simile was used someone wrote to me offlist exchanging many many emails. But all he or she wrote to me was that 'There are other animals in the ocean. They may approach the shore in different way. That like there are many different way to nibbana.' That whole message already destroyed the simile. I know Suna is sometimes hard or a bit harsh, which might be because of saddha in The Dhamma. With Metta, Htoo Naing PS: See below if there are more for exchange of idea and understanding. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Htoo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: Thanks for your poetic reaction, but I still have some remarks I didn't talk about nibbana and the possibility that there is a way to it; ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know you were not talking on nibbana. But I quoted one of your messages. That is 'there is more than one way..' ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: I said to think that there is more than one way to enlightenment. To me that's not the same. Let's not forget that is was a reaction to Suan's metta-poor message. Even for a 100% theravadin it must be possible to say that the Abhidhamma is composed years after Buddha's parinibbana. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I am not interested in composition. What I am most interested is the content. That is why I did not respond your question some weeks ago regarding Abhidhamma. When Abhidhamma is included in Suttas, those who are aversive to Abhidhamma are still complaining that Abhidhamma is not The Buddha's words and Abhidhamma is not preached to human beings. For me I always centre on the content. Abhidhamma words may come from Sariputta, Moggalana, Upali, Kassapa, Assaji, Mahanam, Yassa, or many other arahats. But all those words derive from The Buddha's discoveries. I follow the content. I do not have any interest whether Abhidhamma is written by who and who. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: And the more for somebody - like me - who thinks parts of the Tipitaka should not be taken literal (talking about devas for example) and parts of it are not universal but representing the culture of North-India 2500 years ago (talking about rebirth for example). And for somebody who thinks other texts are representing the message of the Buddha too, for example Nagarjuna and the Heart Sutra. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I do not have any interest in any Sutra. I tried to read Heart Sutra and I always have to stop even in the earlier point because of the content in that Heart Sutra. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: So for somebody who is very serious and sincere active with his buddhist path but who don't believe what he doesn't believe. Maybe I never get in (or should I say 'on') nibbana in this way but that really doesn't bother me for several reasons. One is I don't know what it is whatever other sentient beings tell me. Another is that I have no ambition, maybe being a stream-enterer is enough for me, I will experience how far I come the days or years I'm still on this planet. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: Quite understandable. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop wrote: You say: "There is a single way and it is Noble Eightfold Path made up of 8 parts." I take the Noble Eightfold Path very serious ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I will see whether you are serious or not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Joop continued: but still say: it's one of the ways to express the buddhistic path. See for example the first sentence of the Saripatthana Sutta: "This is the only way … for the purification of beings" Metta Joop ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo: I know that. Maybe word variation. May you be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 40911 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:46am Subject: Re: vasana of the arahat. Dear Tep and Nina, I believe that Tep is a very good questioner. Now he is exploring vasana and why it is undestructible. In other thread Tep is trying to make out a mental map for actual practice of mahasatipatthana which is the only method to find Nibbana. His exploration is very good, I believe. Nina always gives good answers and I can sense that Tep is satisfied with Dhamma discussions here. With Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" wrote: > > Dear Nina (& Htoo, David, Mike,...) - > > N: Vasana is accumulated in the citta. It is expressed by body or > speech, thus the rupas bodily intimation and speech intimation are > conditioned by citta, in this case kiriyacitta. I would not say it resides in > a specific khandha. Citta is always accompanied by cetasikas, sanna > included. But I see no specific role of sanna or the other cetasikas. > > T: This answer is most convincing! Now it is clear that because > accumulated vasana in the kiriyacitta directly conditions bodily > intimation and speech intimation of the Arahat, that's why the other > cetasikas don't play any role here. But the implication that vasana is > undestructible still annoys me. What is so special about vasana that > makes it "permanent", at least while the Arahat is alive? In general, > does vasana acompany patisandhi citta to form a new life? > > > Kindest regards, > > > Tep > > ======= > > > op 09-01-2005 20:19 schreef Tep Sastri op tepyawa@m...: > > > > > I do not follow the suggestion that habits (vasana) "reside" in > sankhara khandha. Because 'avijja paccaya sankhara' as stated by > the Dependent Origination, and avijja no longer "resides" in the Arahat, > so how come vasana still does? > > > I think habit is probably a part of the sanna khandha. What do you > think? 40912 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 6:56am Subject: Re: life faculty Friend Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear friend James, > J: However, Nina in her other post makes the suggestion that life > > faculty is heat. Huh?? Now, I don't get that at all. > N: I did not say that. Heat is another material phenomenon. > Nina. My apologies. Yeah, you didn't write that. I read what you wrote here incorrectly: "Now this answers your remark above that you had no idea why Life faculty is together with the rupas of the body that are produced by kamma. Life faculty is not in a tree, here are only rupas produced by heat." I guess I read this too quickly and transposed "kamma" and "heat" in my mind and thought you had written that the life faculty was produced by heat. Sorry again. Metta, James 40913 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dhamma Thread (228) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote: > Dear Htoo, > When supernatural powers are being performed, what plane of cittas are there > at that moment? Kaamavacara cittas accompanied by paññaa or jhanacittas? > Nina. > op 10-01-2005 17:57 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > > The Buddha has to be fast because yamaka patihara or miracles do have > > beneficial effects and to produce these miracle effects, He has to > > switch on and off different jhanas with different kasinas very > > quickly. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Nina, This is very good question. It is a hard question as well. To be honest I do not know. But what the text says is that BBBB..BBBMPUAGAb.... After gotrabhu there arise Abhinna-jhana-javana and then see everything with divine eye if it is dibbacakkhu nana, hear with divine ear if it is dibbasota nana, see all lives in the past if it is pubbenivasa nana, see what is inside of others' mind if it is paracittavijjanana nana, and many other. It is hard to explain. That is why it is said that there are areas that ordinary people should not appraoch and explore. 1.The Buddha matter 2.Jhana matter 3.Magga matter 4.Phala matter 5.Abhinna matter The Buddha did preach how he came to be a Sammasambuddha. For your question I will go back again to abhinnana because I have not finished yet. The jhanalabhi has to play jhana to and fro, up and down, serial and skipped, simple jump to big jump and then just before abhinnana vithi vara arise he has to do 'kamavacara kama sobhana mahakusala javana cittas' mounting to what kind of abhinna he is going to absorb. So before abhinna yes it is kamacavara mahakusala cittas with pannindriya cetasika. But at the time of abhinna it is obvious that it is abhinna javana vara. It is absorptive. My own opinion is that it has to be rupavacara citta and not kamavacara cittas, not arupavacara cittas, not lokuttara cittas. Thanks for your question. I would try to approach my teachers regarding this matter. If I come to know that I will let you know further. With respect, Htoo Naing 40914 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:26am Subject: Dhamma Thread (229) Dear Dhamma Friends, Abhinnas are difficult subjects. To achieve them it is necessary that all 4 rupa jhanas and all 4 arupa jhanas are attained. For a starter any of 40 kammatthanas works initially. 40 kammatthanas or 40 object of bhavana meditation are 1. 10 kasina 2. 10 asubha 3. 10 anussati 4. 4 brahmavihara 5. 1 aharepatikulasanna 6. 1 catudhatuvavatthana 7. 4 aruppa -------- 40 kammatthanas There are 7 kinds of object for samatha bhavana meditation. In total there are 40 objects. All these 40 calm down sensuous matters and hindrances of jhana or hindrances of magga nana. For jhana at least one kind is necessary. When calm down up to total clearance of all hindrances of 1. sensuous thinking 2. aversive thinking 3. wandering-worrying thinking 4. sluggish-inactive thinking 5. suspicious-doubtful thinking the practitioner has to switch on to one of 30 kammatthanas if he intend to attain jhana. Again out of 30 kammatthana 1. 1 anapanasati can give rise to all 5 rupa jhanas 2. 10 kasinas can give all 5 jhanas 3. 3 of 4 bhahmavihara can give rise to 4 jhanas 4. 1 of 4 brahmavihara [upekkha] only give 5th based on 4th jhana 5. 10 asubha can give rise to 1st jhana only 6. 1 kayagatasati can give rise to 1st jhana only 7. 4 aruppa can give rise to arupa jhanas based on 5th rupa jhana ---- 30 kammatthanas When 1st jhana is attained, it has to be practised to be proficient. And when become proficient he will know that vitakka and vicara are not that good for higher jhana. In that case if the original kammatthana is just for 1st jhana then the practitioner has to change to other kammatthana. Then 2nd jhana, 3rd jhana, 4th jhana are attained serially. If the original was metta, karuna, mudita then for 5th jhana upekkha brahmavihara has to be practised. When 5th rupa jhana is attained and has been practised up to proficient level [not just initial attainer]. When this stage is reached, it is possible to attain all of 5 rupa jhana if practised. For abhinna at this stage all 10 kasina kammatthana have to be practised. Because 1. tejo kasina, aloka kasina are useful for dibbacakkhu 2. pathavi kasina is useful for iddhividdha [creation of 1000 different bodies or 100 different beings], walking on the water, walking in the sky 3. apo kasina is useful for disappearing down under the ground or the earth. 4. vayo kasina is useful for swift movement, creation of storm, movement, dibbasota etc etc. 5. nila kasina is useful for darkening or creation of a dark night or covering of things not to see by other. 6. pita kasina is useful for creation of colour 7. lohita kasina is useful for colour, light, dibbacakkhu etc. 8. odata kasina is useful for colour, light, dibbacakku, paracittavijjanana etc etc. 9. aloka kasina is useful for creation of light at night for seeing of other people or beings, for dibbacakkhu etc etc. 10. akasa kasina is useful for entering into the wall, the mountain, moving in the sky, flying in the sky etc etc. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40915 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Apologies and Kathavatthu Dear Joop. You sent a message some time ago, and I did not finish my post to you. But today I just read Sarah's post with quotes from A. Sujin and I thought of you. Because of your former post I noticed that you were thinking a great deal of orthodoxy, heterodoxy, dogmatism. Sarah wrote today: < In India, we discussed how it has to be our own understanding of the teachings, not the others’ understanding. So it’s important to keep asking, questioning, discussing and considering until it really is a firm knowledge being developed as I see it.> And Sarah again: . Joop, I think when we keep this in mind, there is no place for dogmatism. The Buddha taught about all phenomena appearing through the six doors, he did not teach a set of dogmas you have to adhere to. As A. Sujin said, you have to develop your own understanding. We are still on our way to find out what realities are, and of course we also have wrong views. We are not sotapannas yet. Here in dsg we discuss, and we have different views. As Sarah also said, there is no need for agreement. I find different views inspiring, like a meditation. It helps me to reflect on Dhamma. The Buddha taught Dhamma in such a way that we can develop our own understanding. While we are discussing here, we can reflect on Dhamma and find out the truth ourselves. Nina. op 09-01-2005 10:35 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: > I also have a personal interest in this topic: more and more the last > months I feel like the heterodox people monks on that council, > feeling not at ease with the dogmatic dominant culture, which later > evolved to mahayana. In fact I want to know: to which of the > heterodox views do I belong ? 40916 From: Nina van Gorkom Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: enthusiasm Dear Joop, op 11-01-2005 10:32 schreef jwromeijn op jwromeijn@y...: I am always happy when you come back with questions and remarks. Just preparing for my trip now. An important point: to know that there is unwholesome piti, otherwise we mix everything up, we delude ourselves. Enthusiasm is not always so noble, it can be fake. It depends on the object: about what are we so enthusiastic? Carried away? It can be kust attachment. I catch myself on this. I am glad you ask. Good and evil: but this is not the same as sin and punishment. Just having a discussion with my sister about this, re Schopenhauer. My sister falls over this. I discuss with Lodewijk some more. Remind me of your points. As Sarah said, no need for agreement. We study the teachings, consider and check for ourselves. Nina. > > Dear Nina > > A week ago (in #40603) you said to me: > "Then it is the wrong season to cultivate the limb of wisdom > (bojjhanga or factor of enlightenment) that is tranquillity, > concentration, equanimity. But the right time to cultivate > investigation of dhamma, energy and enthusiasm." > I didn't pay much attention to it but after rereading and > realizing 'ethusiasm' was exactly what I was talking about, I'm doing > some study about that factor 'piti', for example what you wrote about > it, chapter 11 of Cetasikas > To be honest, my first reaction when I saw that there is also > unwholesome piti, to think: Oh no, not again. So I concentrate on the > wholesome aspects of it; I said it before: I don't know if the > dichotomy good - evil really exists, it's a projection of the human > mind. > When I have question as a result of this study, I come back to this > topic. 40917 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:43am Subject: Dhamma Thread (230) Dear Dhamma Friends, After acquisition of all 5 rupa jhanas with the aid of all 10 kasina kammatthana, the practitioner has to practise his 5th jhana to a proficient level. When he does the exercises he comes to know that rupa jhanas are not free possible danger of sensual matter. That thought leads hin practise aruppa kammatthana. Aruppa kammatthana are kammatthanas for arupa jhana. There are 4 arupa jhanas and they are akasananca-ayatana, vinnananca-ayatana, akincanna- ayatana, and n'evasanna-nasanna-ayatana aruppa kammatthana. After achiving 5th rupa jhana with 9 of 10 kasina kammatthana [excluding akasa kasina because as it is already empty pannatti it cannot work for 1st arupa jhana which will be akasa], the practitioner has to practise his 5th rupa jhana and he has to expand the object to cover the whole universe. Because of 5th rupa jhana power the universe is covered with his object. But because of his practice he comes to know rupa are not that good and they are still in the domain of possible danger of sensuous matter. This dispassion leads him to devoid the already expanded object and when the conditions are right and 1st arupa jhana is going to arise the object that covers the whole universe is voided by jhana power and there left just emptiness and that emptiness or space is boundless space. This is achievement of the 1st arupa jhana. Again this space is also close to rupa and he needs to ascend up further to avoid this danger. Otherwise the object that cover the whole universe will re-appear and this again might lead him back to sensuous sphere mind. This dispassion to boundless space leads him searching further object. As there is no rupa object he would not find anything but what he finds will be his mind attending boundless space. When this mind is seen, the seer is 2nd arupa jhana and one who is seen is 1st arupa jhana. Again this is close to boundless space. So he tries further and that 2nd arupa jhana cittas are disregarded and voided. He is targetting the emptiness or nothingness. When he is directed to nothingness then 3rd arupa jhana appears. Further when he searches higher jhana he would find that that 3rd arupa jhana citta is very subtle. It is hard to say whether there is sanna in that 3rd arupa jhana or no sanna in that arupa jhaana. When this happen 4th arupa jhana arises. But that matter is not that easy. But when achieve and attain all 4 arupa jhanas he has to practise to proficient level. This makes him create different jhanas at his will. When he is proficient in all 10 kasina kammatthana, all 5 rupa jhanas and all 4 arupa jhanas he is quite ready to practise abhinna. May you all be free from suffering. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing PS: 1.Any comments are welcome and any queries are welcome and they will be valuable. If there is unclarity of any meaning, please just give a reply to any of these posts. 40918 From: Date: Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhas Appear To Only Discover And Teach Abhidhamma Hi RobertK Couple of comments. The Sutta you posted below has nothing in common with Suan's remarks as far as I'm concerned. The Sutta below is uplifting an inspiring. Quite the opposite of my take of Suan's comments. This type of Sutta, as all, are very popular with 'this' modern Buddhist. I have no problems with faith/confidence, I think its a great thing. But I never heard the Buddha tell anyone to teach doctrine based on faith and or claim things based on faith that they didn't know as fact. One of the reasons the Suttas start with "Thus Have I Heard" is to "report" the teachings of the Buddha. This takes the onus of any "claim of